Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM

[Tsuru]

Hi @Johnny Ace, I have been working in my 4-3-3 here in Serbia with very good results. Playing with Macva Sabac we were champions of the 2nd division in the first season, in the second one we finished 3rd in the 1st division and we went to Europa League, now I am starting to work on our 3rd season.

The current tactic is inspired by one of your versions here:
 

We won the first game 3-1 against Red Star which is one of the country giants, so far so good. However I noticed a difficulty on defensive/midfield transitions, with some key passing mistakes. Maybe it is just the beggining of the season, maybe the other team is too good, but I was wondering if the use of an AP-Su instead of your suggested CM-Su could create this kind of problem.

This is Jekovec:

In the center of the midfield he is a natural Deep Lying Playmaker. I did some tests with the DLP but it created another problem - he was frequently too deep and the team relied more on long balls and on crossings to score. The AP is much better but maybe it lacks some linking movements with the DM-Su?

Maybe I should use Jekovec as a CM-Su with some AP PIs? Do you think that the CM-Su could help more the team on the linking play part? Or maybe I should try the DLP a little bit more?

And I have to say thank you again for this amazing topic, it is a fantastic source of inspiration.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Tsuru

[NineCloudNine]

Positional play has transformed my 4-3-3 for the better this year. Watching my Half Back drop between the Centre Backs, making a nice solid three, is a joy. It allows me to play CWBs on both wings. I've also had a lot of joy with an AP in the wing position, which I haven't tried before. The interaction with the CWB on his side is great.

The Half Back in this setup needs to be really really good though. They are central to both attack and defence and act as a playmaker even without the designation. Gives me an even greater appreciation of what Sergio Busquets did to sew everything together for Pep's Barcelona.

Having a lot of 4-3-3 fun with FM24.

[CapitalismReimagined]

3 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Positional play has transformed my 4-3-3 for the better this year. Watching my Half Back drop between the Centre Backs, making a nice solid three, is a joy. It allows me to play CWBs on both wings. I've also had a lot of joy with an AP in the wing position, which I haven't tried before. The interaction with the CWB on his side is great.

The Half Back in this setup needs to be really really good though. They are central to both attack and defence and act as a playmaker even without the designation. Gives me an even greater appreciation of what Sergio Busquets did to sew everything together for Pep's Barcelona.

Having a lot of 4-3-3 fun with FM24.

Would you mind sharing your tactic? I'm trying to create a 4-3-3 around a pair of WBs and a HB too. 

[Johnny Ace]

Looks good @Tsuru

One thing I can see, which cwould maybe help your midfielder is the FB(A), if you get a bit of width on the left with a WB(S), it might help free things up for him 

And seeing as you've not long been promoted, sometimes you have to have faith in that the system is fine but it's the players that need to improve, so keep building the team over time and you'll see a better quality of football without adjusting the tactic 

 

[ashlfcowen]

On 02/04/2023 at 08:59, Johnny Ace said:

Hey @Johnny Ace,

I used these roles and duties with my Brescia team last season, and we won the treble - Serie A, Italian Cup & Champions League. Granted I am 8 seasons in and 2 years into a Tycoon takeover so we have had cash to spend. Regardless, given our squad relative to the rest of Europe it was a great achievement.

One thing I wasn't entirely happy with was my Strikers ability to score goals. He scored 26 in 49 so not bad, modest if anything lol - I guess my standards are high but this is a return I would expect from a creative striker not an outlet. 

This season though he's only scored 3 in 13. In all of the visualisation graphs in the Data Hub he's actually quite worrying 

His name is Paul Caron. His conversion rate this season so far is 9% from 17 shots on target.

His counterpart, Silva, as 6 goals in 3 games and has a conversation rate of 73% 

From memory @Johnny Ace, what was the goal return of your AF in that system?

Caron isn't necessarily contributing much this season and I'm tempted to move on.

Edited December 30, 2023 by ashlfcowen

[TheMartello]

10 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Hi @Johnny Ace, I have been working in my 4-3-3 here in Serbia with very good results. Playing with Macva Sabac we were champions of the 2nd division in the first season, in the second one we finished 3rd in the 1st division and we went to Europa League, now I am starting to work on our 3rd season.

The current tactic is inspired by one of your versions here:
 

We won the first game 3-1 against Red Star which is one of the country giants, so far so good. However I noticed a difficulty on defensive/midfield transitions, with some key passing mistakes. Maybe it is just the beggining of the season, maybe the other team is too good, but I was wondering if the use of an AP-Su instead of your suggested CM-Su could create this kind of problem.

This is Jekovec:

In the center of the midfield he is a natural Deep Lying Playmaker. I did some tests with the DLP but it created another problem - he was frequently too deep and the team relied more on long balls and on crossings to score. The AP is much better but maybe it lacks some linking movements with the DM-Su?

Maybe I should use Jekovec as a CM-Su with some AP PIs? Do you think that the CM-Su could help more the team on the linking play part? Or maybe I should try the DLP a little bit more?

And I have to say thank you again for this amazing topic, it is a fantastic source of inspiration.

That looks like a fun save! Great job

Did you use any Player Instructions in your tactic?

[CapitalismReimagined]

@Johnny Ace thanks for the thread. It has been incredibly helpful. I had a small request - would it be possible to update the original post with a list of links to each of the sample tactic that you've created?

 

That would be a great way for the community to access your resources. I can help create the list of links if helpful. 

[Tsuru]

4 horas atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Looks good @Tsuru

One thing I can see, which cwould maybe help your midfielder is the FB(A), if you get a bit of width on the left with a WB(S), it might help free things up for him 

And seeing as you've not long been promoted, sometimes you have to have faith in that the system is fine but it's the players that need to improve, so keep building the team over time and you'll see a better quality of football without adjusting the tactic 

 

Yeah last season I used a WB-S, however in this version I would only have 1 attack duty which I don't like. However I also don't like the FB At in this system so I need to reconsider.

You are absolutely right about keeping the tactic. However we lost our Half Back and I couldn't find another HB to replace him.

In the previous version we had a HB-DlP Su-Mez At midfield behind a Poacher. The Mez was not very involved in the game and we relied in long balls from the DLP to the strikers to score, or on a crossing from the Winger. It worked on a lower division, but to move things up and beyond we need more variety, that's why I have been working in this improvement.

I will test some other options from this point and I will come back as soon as I complete the adjustments. 

2 horas atrás, TheMartello disse:

That looks like a fun save! Great job

Did you use any Player Instructions in your tactic?

Thank you. I am absolutely in love with this save, this team and this league.

I am not using any PIs right now. I used them when I tested a CM At instead of the Mezzala but it was for a really short period of time. 

[HanziZoloman]

Again I am visiting this one: 

Where to place a sniper from the back in a 433?

IWB(S) shots a lot from distance

[CapitalismReimagined]

Hi @Johnny Ace, thank you once again for your insights. I created this tactic using the resources you provided, and wanted to get your advice if it can be optimised even further. I understand Liverpool is an easy team to play but I'm trying to learn how to build tactics before I try out LLM in the future. Current tactic results in TAA coming down the right wing and overlapping with Mo Salah, I also have a similar mirror on the left-hand side which I use in-game to switch things up when needed.

Set Up: 

• Defending Phase: Usual high-press here
• Transition Phase: Usual Gegen
• Attacking Phase: Transition into a 2-3-5
  • 2 are VVD, and Matip
  • 3 are Robertson, Endo, and Mac Allister in a triangle
  • 5 are Diaz, Szoboslai, Nunez, Salah, and TAA.
  • Right: TAA goes down the flank to work with Salah who is cutting in; Matip, Endo, and Mac Allister are protecting the right flank
  • Left: Diaz stays wide (with PI) to create space for Szoboslai to take the half-space. If Diaz has the ball, he will cut-in. Robertson protects the left flank in the defensive / midfielder strata.
• Player Instructions:
  • RCB stay-wider to cover the gap left by TAA
  • BWM take fewer risk, and dribble less. Basically, a recycler in the formation. Endo is not the best DM hence the conservative take on his role. He actually has a decent progressive pass stat versus the rest of EPL so I'm happy
  • LW has a Stay Wider

Questions:

• Is there anything in the data hub to help me figure out the type of crosses I should be using?
• When is it appropriate to use Trap inside vs Trap outside? My most common tactics faced are 433 DM and 4231 DM AM Wide
• I still struggle to beat Man City, any tips on how to counter them?
•  Should CM (A) have a Move Into Channel role? Or should I switch him to a Mezzala (A) instead? I've done it without any PI as he would have already moved into the half-space by default.
• The CMs and LB are using the base roles of CM and FB but I've not really used any PIs. Is that needed?
• What else should I be looking through in the data hub to identify any other potential tweaks?

I would appreciate any other feedback too on my first tactic, and looking forward to building more tactics on my own!

Spoiler

 

[Johnny Ace]

15 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

 

• Is there anything in the data hub to help me figure out the type of crosses I should be using?

Not really to be honest, it's such a small detail, I generally leave it on mixed. The player that's the aim of these crosses is probably the more important thing 

15 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

 

• When is it appropriate to use Trap inside vs Trap outside? My most common tactics faced are 433 DM and 4231 DM AM Wide

 Another one I leave on mixed generally and apply it to what I'm seeing during the game 

15 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

 

• I still struggle to beat Man City, any tips on how to counter them?

City are one of the best quality teams in the World so it'll never be easy, I would stick to your usual gameplan but change a role or two. The midfield is one area I'd keep I'd look to keep a bit more cautious and let Robertson stretch the left 

15 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

 

•  Should CM (A) have a Move Into Channel role? Or should I switch him to a Mezzala (A) instead? I've done it without any PI as he would have already moved into the half-space by default.

The CM(A) looks fine but you can always try out a Mezz(A) 

15 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

 

• The CMs and LB are using the base roles of CM and FB but I've not really used any PIs. Is that needed?

I think you're fine there too, you can add Take More Risks to Szoboslzai if he doesn't already have the trait  

15 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

 

• What else should I be looking through in the data hub to identify any other potential tweaks?

I would appreciate any other feedback too on my first tactic,

 

I usually go by what I'm seeing on the pitch and the match stats over the data hub but XG is one I always keep my eye on 

It looks great to me mate, like I said, switch up to plan B using Robertson as a WB from time to time, he's fantastic. All it will take is moving the CM(A) to (S) and the DM(S) to (D) for an easy variation 

[Johnny Ace]

On 30/12/2023 at 12:23, CapitalismReimagined said:

@Johnny Ace thanks for the thread. It has been incredibly helpful. I had a small request - would it be possible to update the original post with a list of links to each of the sample tactic that you've created?

 

That would be a great way for the community to access your resources. I can help create the list of links if helpful. 

I think I tried that at one point and the original post was too old to edit, I'll have another look but I have tried to link post up an index every now and then 

[HanziZoloman]

Here is a new one from the YAC, just stumbled over it while creating some alternatives to the recently used 433. We were promoted and last time didn't fare well and were relegated a year later. This time we are more prepared. 

The 433 we're using is very simple and tries to implement three goal threating players. Despite that "rule" we are trying to secure in possession with three different allocation of roles and duties to form a 2-2 / 3-2 and 2-3 rest defense (the other players are mainly attacking the opponents goal. 

This one is the 2-3 variant of the shape. Two IWB(S) and a DM(S) form the first security line and the CB the second. Wingers give width, the MEZ(S/A) play in the half-spaces and the Striker attacks the goal centrally. I noticed that the AP is playing out wide which is good enough. The Wingers (including the AP are "wrong" footed which let them play like an IW on the left and an IF on the right side but we're still using the complete width of the pitch. The right IWB is occasionally overlapping on the right which of course leave the rest defense with a 2-2 but we can easily switch it off. 

The AF is fed by the AP, the MEZ and the W and occasionally by the IWB overlapping. The MEZ(A) is fed by the AP and cut backs by the W(A) but maybe I should change the MEZ(S) into a simple MC(S) or B2B. The W(A) is fed by the overlapping IWB and the MEZ(S)/ MC(S). I'm not sure if there some implementation to give the tactic an edge. I don't like the many similar roles. 

It's still pre-Season there might be some tweaks (?)

Spoiler

 

 

[Lasson]

This is my current 4-3-3, which is a 3-2-5 in the attacking phase. Originally, the RPM was a BBM, but I really like how the RPM drops a little deeper and helps in the initial build-up. Also, I felt like I had to use Christian Eriksen as some sort of playmaker after getting him to Copenhagen.

I love having Inverted Full-Backs. I have zero traditional Full-Backs/Wing-Backs left in my squad and I only use Central Defenders and retrain them to be able to play on the outside.

As for PI's, the DM have 'Hold Position' and both Wingers have 'Cut Inside With Ball".

Spoiler

 

Edited January 3 by Lasson

[CapitalismReimagined]

2 hours ago, Lasson said:

This is my current 4-3-3, which is a 3-2-5 in the attacking phase. Originally, the RPM was a BBM, but I really like how the RPM drops a little deeper and helps in the initial build-up. Also, I felt like I had to use Christian Eriksen as some sort of playmaker after getting him to Copenhagen.

I love having Inverted Full-Backs. I have zero traditional Full-Backs/Wing-Backs left in my squad and I only use Central Defenders and retrain them to be able to play on the outside.

As for PI's, the DM have 'Hold Position' and both Wingers have 'Cut Inside With Ball".

  Reveal hidden contents

 

How do you see this being different from having two IWs? 

[CapitalismReimagined]

6 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

It looks great to me mate, like I said, switch up to plan B using Robertson as a WB from time to time, he's fantastic. All it will take is moving the CM(A) to (S) and the DM(S) to (D) for an easy variation 

Thanks @Johnny Ace, super helpful comments here. Yeah, Robertson is amazing and it seems like TAA is no longer as good a WB because his stats are more suited for an IWB role. I've been thinking if I want to leverage that in the following way:

• TAA, WB (S) becomes IWB (S)
• Robertson, FB (S) becomes WB (S)
• Endo, BWM (S) becomes BWM (D) or DM (D) to cover Robertson or TAA in a counter-attack
• CM (A) is the RCM and CM (S) is the LCM to ensure there is more protection when Robertson is going down the flank
• Szoboslai, CM (A) becomes Mez (A) or Mez (S) to work with Salah on the right flank

What do you think?

[Lasson]

6 hours ago, CapitalismReimagined said:

How do you see this being different from having two IWs? 

I haven't tried IWs in my setup, but I can imagine that they will come inside i bit earlier than the Ws and I don't want that. I want them to stay wide as long as possible to make space centrally for my CM(a), RPM and DLF(a).

[HanziZoloman]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Lasson:

I haven't tried IWs in my setup, but I can imagine that they will come inside i bit earlier than the Ws and I don't want that. I want them to stay wide as long as possible to make space centrally for my CM(a), RPM and DLF(a).

The W(A/S) if „wrong-footed“ cuts in more like an IF and stays closer to the line. That’s what I‘m seeing though. The IW cuts inside very deep and often in front of the box. If „wrong-footed“ it’s a different story though.

[Lasson]

4 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

The W(A/S) if „wrong-footed“ cuts in more like an IF and stays closer to the line. That’s what I‘m seeing though. The IW cuts inside very deep and often in front of the box. If „wrong-footed“ it’s a different story though.

I only use "wrong-footed" players as my wingers.

[Bahnzo]

1 hour ago, Lasson said:

I only use "wrong-footed" players as my wingers.

I'm a little confused here. Do you mean a W on the right who has a left foot as their strong foot?

[Lasson]

12 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

I'm a little confused here. Do you mean a W on the right who has a left foot as their strong foot?

Exactly.

[BadAss88]

I was thinking about this 4-3-3, any suggestions?

I'm not sure about my midfield trio, should I choose for a MEZ-A or CM-A? And will he not occupying the same space as the IF-S, should I choose a IW-S there?
And where do I place my playmaker best? DM or CM-strata? On defend, support or attack? DLP or AP? Or no playmaker at all?

[CapitalismReimagined]

16 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

I was thinking about this 4-3-3, any suggestions?

I'm not sure about my midfield trio, should I choose for a MEZ-A or CM-A? And will he not occupying the same space as the IF-S, should I choose a IW-S there?
And where do I place my playmaker best? DM or CM-strata? On defend, support or attack? DLP or AP? Or no playmaker at all?

• I think either combination works 1) IW-S and MEZ-A or 2) IF-S and CM-A. On 1), you can also put a custom PI for the IW-S to stay wider to create space for MEZ
• I see the Mez as a creative playmaker already so not sure if you need another one in the CM-strata. I like the DLP-S currently as it works quite nicely with the BBM bouncing between the boxes. 

[skybluedave]

I've had a good season getting Zaragoza promoted using DLP(d) behind CAR & B2B

I maybe don't score a lot but defensively I was great. Would get a the odd annoying 0-0. Carrilero not a role I'd used before but on the left of midfield 3 with a WB(a) and IF(s) on the left side it kinda worked. I thought it was more a defensive role but he chipped in with plenty of goals and assists. 

[NineCloudNine]

6 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I've had a good season getting Zaragoza promoted using DLP(d) behind CAR & B2B

I maybe don't score a lot but defensively I was great. Would get a the odd annoying 0-0. Carrilero not a role I'd used before but on the left of midfield 3 with a WB(a) and IF(s) on the left side it kinda worked. I thought it was more a defensive role but he chipped in with plenty of goals and assists. 

Carrilero’s are great. They seem to act like a less gung-ho B2B. Nice balance between attack and defence.

One thing I have noticed is that PPMs seem to affect how a player acts in those two roles more than for (eg) AP or DLP. I suspect this is because playmakers tend to have PPMs which amplify or emphasise parts of their role whereas B2B and Carrileros are more likely to have more individual traits, like long shots or tackling harder or getting into the box, which significantly affect how they play.

[Lasson]

8 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Carrilero’s are great. They seem to act like a less gung-ho B2B. Nice balance between attack and defence.

One thing I have noticed is that PPMs seem to affect how a player acts in those two roles more than for (eg) AP or DLP. I suspect this is because playmakers tend to have PPMs which amplify or emphasise parts of their role whereas B2B and Carrileros are more likely to have more individual traits, like long shots or tackling harder or getting into the box, which significantly affect how they play.

Another difference between the CAR and the BBM is that the BBM will move into the AM strata as part of the positional play.

[Lasson]

Getting inspiration from another thread on this site as well, I have now settled on three seperate tactics within the 4-3-3 shape.

Positive

Spoiler

Attacking

Spoiler

Balanced

Spoiler

In 2028, I just played Bayern München in the Champions League Round of 16 and even though I lost 4-3 overall, I'm pretty satisfied with the overall play of the team and the tactic. I mainly used the Balanced setup for the two games, as they are, obviously, a much better side. Below are stats from the two games.

Spoiler

 

[HanziZoloman]

@Lasson great game! Why do you chose FB(D) instead of IFB(D)? 
and a DLF(A) with two wingers? 

[Lasson]

2 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Lasson great game! Why do you chose FB(D) instead of IFB(D)? 
and a DLF(A) with two wingers? 

I do use IFB(d) on both sides making it a 3-2-5. I have zero traditional full backs on my team. This is the height of all of my defenders.

I like using the DLF(a) to link up with the other players. I felt like the PF(a)/AF was getting isolated at times, and I don't see any problems using DLF(a) with two wingers on the sides. They will still make runs in behind and so will the CM(a) and BBM.

Spoiler

 

[HanziZoloman]

thank you @Lasson one other question, how far does the L(S) venture?

[ibrahim.akbyk]

39 dakika önce, Lasson said:

I do use IFB(d) on both sides making it a 3-2-5. I have zero traditional full backs on my team. This is the height of all of my defenders.

I like using the DLF(a) to link up with the other players. I felt like the PF(a)/AF was getting isolated at times, and I don't see any problems using DLF(a) with two wingers on the sides. They will still make runs in behind and so will the CM(a) and BBM.

  Hide contents

 

How do you find CM(a) on middle? He generally run forward too early than I like besides I like to play very much fluidity with positive mentality in these days unless I am highly underdog. In these kind of matches I tend to start with atleast balanced mentality and balanced fluidity. I wonder what do you think about CM(a) role and the player type you choose with it. Because we are not too far away with our set-ups. 

Edited January 17 by ibrahim.akbyk

[Lasson]

4 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

thank you @Lasson one other question, how far does the L(S) venture?

Passes received against AC Horsens (attacking from right to left)

Spoiler

Passes received against Brøndby (attacking from left to right).

Spoiler

Passes received against Bayern München (attacking from left to right).

Spoiler

If you want some pictures of anything else in regards to the Libero, just let me know. But as you can see from the passes that my L(s) received in my last three matches, he will move up quite a bit along with the rest of the team as we progress the ball.

[HanziZoloman]

Thank you, I‘ll keep mine on defend then 

[Lasson]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thank you, I‘ll keep mine on defend then 

I've thought about playing with a L(d) and making my DM(s) a RPM(s) instead. That would make it a 3-1-6 instead when we are further up the field.

[HanziZoloman]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Lasson:

I've thought about playing with a L(d) and making my DM(s) a RPM(s) instead. That would make it a 3-1-6 instead when we are further up the field.

It all depends on the players you have. I play in Championship with mostly Vanarama National players and it’s tougher than tough. Got a goal difference of -48 

[HanziZoloman]

Hey guys, I am back at the drawing board any suggestions for this kind of shape?

We used to be secure in defense but this year same set up but different results. Even same players a bit more stable if played in a mid-block with standard DL which we do mostly. The IW(A) has stay wider which works fine, last year I had two wingers. When the Striker is played as AF he scores more but we don't have the possession numbers we'd like to have. I like to build it up slowly carefully looking for the right spot. My midfielders are good passers and have all one-two trait. My wingers are really fast (ACC 14-16) the strikers are among the best in moving around (OFF). Defenders are mentally strong but our strengths are clearly in offense.

I'd like to have this 3-2 Rest defense (usually the Libero is on (S). 

Spoiler

Our best player is him: Loric Kalala but I can't find the best position for him which is why he is not thriving. He's only getting better and better every year. .89 OP key passes/ Match 4 assists and 1 goal are not good enough. 

Spoiler

Any suggestions? I've read this thread here on and on and tried many things. We're lacking final third passes despite having much time with the ball.

Edited February 4 by HanziZoloman

[Vizzini]

On 04/02/2024 at 10:57, HanziZoloman said:

Hey guys, I am back at the drawing board any suggestions for this kind of shape?

We used to be secure in defense but this year same set up but different results. Even same players a bit more stable if played in a mid-block with standard DL which we do mostly. The IW(A) has stay wider which works fine, last year I had two wingers. When the Striker is played as AF he scores more but we don't have the possession numbers we'd like to have. I like to build it up slowly carefully looking for the right spot. My midfielders are good passers and have all one-two trait. My wingers are really fast (ACC 14-16) the strikers are among the best in moving around (OFF). Defenders are mentally strong but our strengths are clearly in offense.

I'd like to have this 3-2 Rest defense (usually the Libero is on (S). 

  Reveal hidden contents

Our best player is him: Loric Kalala but I can't find the best position for him which is why he is not thriving. He's only getting better and better every year. .89 OP key passes/ Match 4 assists and 1 goal are not good enough. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Any suggestions? I've read this thread here on and on and tried many things. We're lacking final third passes despite having much time with the ball.

Who are they crossing to? Also, no aggressive runners from midfield. 

[KlaaZ]

On 07/02/2024 at 11:18, Vizzini said:

Who are they crossing to? Also, no aggressive runners from midfield. 

Hard agree with this. You have a lot of creators (DLF, W, IW, AP, but who is supposed to score your goals?

[nick1408]

So, I've been playing around with a 4-3-3 with a bit of a twist:

 

I wanted to use a wide targetman and thought the 4-3-3 shape would work best. I workshopped it with Borussia Mönchengladbach in 2027 with Samu Omorodion as the WTM. Results (below) were pretty good except for a three match stretch in March.

 

 

I started a new game with Everton and again started well with Beto as the WTM. I'm posting this after only five games because Beto just got injured for three weeks. In this save injuries have killed me - lost Onana and Doucoure in the Tottenham match and then Gomes and Beto in the forst seven minutes of the Chelsea match.

 

Edit:

*gif failed to load - got sick of trying*

 

Above is why I like the wide targetman. Chermiti is 192cm (coincedently, the same as Jostein Flo) vs Ben White's 185cm. Add in Chermiti's 16 jumping vs White's 13 and it leads to assists like this. Note McNeil's floated cross goes against the team instructions - a good choice by McNeil.

 

Further, a quick search shows me there are currently two starting-standard natural left backs in the EPL - Dan Burn (201cm) and Mickey van de Ven (193cm) who are taller than either Chermiti or Beto (194cm). Newcastle are currently playing Dan Burn at left back so I will probably adjust tactics against them but Tottenham are playing Destiny Udogie (plus I've already beaten them).

 

Edited February 13 by nick1408
added gif

[Sammie B]

On 17/01/2024 at 06:48, Lasson said:

Getting inspiration from another thread on this site as well, I have now settled on three seperate tactics within the 4-3-3 shape.

Positive

  Reveal hidden contents

Attacking

  Reveal hidden contents

Balanced

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In 2028, I just played Bayern München in the Champions League Round of 16 and even though I lost 4-3 overall, I'm pretty satisfied with the overall play of the team and the tactic. I mainly used the Balanced setup for the two games, as they are, obviously, a much better side. Below are stats from the two games.

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I notice you don't increase the pressing intensity via TI's or PI's - do you still find yourself winning the ball back high up the pitch with your high press?

[HanziZoloman]

Am 9.2.2024 um 17:55 schrieb KlaaZ:

Hard agree with this. You have a lot of creators (DLF, W, IW, AP, but who is supposed to score your goals?

Thx for advice @Vizzini too, maybe that’s why it’s working with an AF better. 

[Duracellio]

Em 30/12/2023 em 00:24, NineCloudNine disse:

Positional play has transformed my 4-3-3 for the better this year. Watching my Half Back drop between the Centre Backs, making a nice solid three, is a joy. It allows me to play CWBs on both wings. I've also had a lot of joy with an AP in the wing position, which I haven't tried before. The interaction with the CWB on his side is great.

The Half Back in this setup needs to be really really good though. They are central to both attack and defence and act as a playmaker even without the designation. Gives me an even greater appreciation of what Sergio Busquets did to sew everything together for Pep's Barcelona.

Having a lot of 4-3-3 fun with FM24.

 

That's exactly my string of thoughs behind the 433 I'm currently trying to run but I find myself questioning a few things in this kind of setup. Maybe some of you more experienced FManager's have some tips or ideas we can exchange on this matter.

Here goes some food for thought.

-I love the idea of having an AP on the wing to help masking the eventually inferior numbers on the midfield since your HB will drop and leave your midfield with only 2 mens (or even 1, if you choose one of them to be a breaker like M(a)/AP(a)/MEZ(a))

BUT with an AP on the wing with attack duty, I often find him to be neglecting when it comes to defend that wing, thus leaving the CWB alone against the opponent's FB and Winger or in most of the times, arriving late for the pressure. The obvious solution for this would be to play him as a AP on support, the thing is, by doing that, one would become a bit passive on the offensive side because you only rely on your ST and the other W/IF/IW (and eventually on one player from the midfield if you choose a breaker here) because I find the AP on support to float in front of the box a lot and not being a threat to the goal.

 

-Another issue that I often find with this kinds of setup is the team becoming a crossing merchant and stop looking for vertical passes through the middle of the pitch, either for the build up or for the final deadly pass. How can one stop this from happening? I understand the theory behind the reason this happens in a natural way, your CWB's will find themselves wide and with lots of space to receive the ball, and since you'll have only 2 men in the your midfield, that are most probably under pressure your CB's will naturally start to build towards the wings. Maybe you could patch this up by playing a DLP on the midfield, that would give a passing option trough the middle, but the DLP doens't offer much in the offensive either, and since you already lost one of the mid 3 (the HB) this will make it even harder to attack through the middle once you overcome the initial pressure from the opponents strikers, so I don't think that really works in this matter.

 

How would you adress this two things, let me know and what other issues do you find with this kinds of setups?

Cheers.

PS: I thought about creating a topic on this 433 setup with HB and CWB's approach, but since I'm not sure on how or even if it is appropriate, plus having this nice little 433 topic, I think it is the perfect place to leave this chain of thoughts

 

Edited February 15 by Duracellio
img added

[NineCloudNine]

@Duracellio here are my thoughts on your questions (not in any order!):

* Yes any 2xCWB system is heavy on crossing. This is how I intend it to be. 

* While the CWBs have to be monsters, it is the Half Back which makes the system work. They push the two CBs wide, which covers the CWBs going forward. The HB is simultaneously the centre of defence and a deep playmaker. They see a lot of the ball.

* I close gaps by playing a high defensive line and a regular line of engagement, which compresses my team so I do not see gaps in midfield or between lines.

* I find that an AP on support in the AML/R slots comes inside to make up numbers in the middle. I like them lurking on the edge of the box for long shots or clever passes. I have an IF on the other side for more offence.

[Duracellio]

13 minutos atrás, NineCloudNine disse:

@Duracellio here are my thoughts on your questions (not in any order!):

* Yes any 2xCWB system is heavy on crossing. This is how I intend it to be. 

* While the CWBs have to be monsters, it is the Half Back which makes the system work. They push the two CBs wide, which covers the CWBs going forward. The HB is simultaneously the centre of defence and a deep playmaker. They see a lot of the ball.

* I close gaps by playing a high defensive line and a regular line of engagement, which compresses my team so I do not see gaps in midfield or between lines.

* I find that an AP on support in the AML/R slots comes inside to make up numbers in the middle. I like them lurking on the edge of the box for long shots or clever passes. I have an IF on the other side for more offence.

Thank you for your tips.

So I imagine you usually go for the target forward "jumpman" archetype in the ST position?

This also reminded me, do you reckon a Wide targetman where you usually have an IF could work?

[KlaaZ]

5 hours ago, Duracellio said:

 

That's exactly my string of thoughs behind the 433 I'm currently trying to run but I find myself questioning a few things in this kind of setup. Maybe some of you more experienced FManager's have some tips or ideas we can exchange on this matter.

Here goes some food for thought.

-I love the idea of having an AP on the wing to help masking the eventually inferior numbers on the midfield since your HB will drop and leave your midfield with only 2 mens (or even 1, if you choose one of them to be a breaker like M(a)/AP(a)/MEZ(a))

BUT with an AP on the wing with attack duty, I often find him to be neglecting when it comes to defend that wing, thus leaving the CWB alone against the opponent's FB and Winger or in most of the times, arriving late for the pressure. The obvious solution for this would be to play him as a AP on support, the thing is, by doing that, one would become a bit passive on the offensive side because you only rely on your ST and the other W/IF/IW (and eventually on one player from the midfield if you choose a breaker here) because I find the AP on support to float in front of the box a lot and not being a threat to the goal.

 

-Another issue that I often find with this kinds of setup is the team becoming a crossing merchant and stop looking for vertical passes through the middle of the pitch, either for the build up or for the final deadly pass. How can one stop this from happening? I understand the theory behind the reason this happens in a natural way, your CWB's will find themselves wide and with lots of space to receive the ball, and since you'll have only 2 men in the your midfield, that are most probably under pressure your CB's will naturally start to build towards the wings. Maybe you could patch this up by playing a DLP on the midfield, that would give a passing option trough the middle, but the DLP doens't offer much in the offensive either, and since you already lost one of the mid 3 (the HB) this will make it even harder to attack through the middle once you overcome the initial pressure from the opponents strikers, so I don't think that really works in this matter.

 

How would you adress this two things, let me know and what other issues do you find with this kinds of setups?

Cheers.

PS: I thought about creating a topic on this 433 setup with HB and CWB's approach, but since I'm not sure on how or even if it is appropriate, plus having this nice little 433 topic, I think it is the perfect place to leave this chain of thoughts

 

Just regarding the DLP(S) question, have you considered an RPM instead? I could be wrong but I believe he would shuttle between boxes and thus provide more of an attacking outlet as well.

[NineCloudNine]

51 minutes ago, Duracellio said:

Thank you for your tips.

So I imagine you usually go for the target forward "jumpman" archetype in the ST position?

This also reminded me, do you reckon a Wide targetman where you usually have an IF could work?

I tend to prefer a CF as a sole striker for the all-round contribution. These are often big, strong and good in the air, but are not strictly a target forward archytype.

A variation on the HB/CWB structure is 3xCM and two forwards, with no wingers. The middle CM is an AP-A, the outer CMs can be whatever you prefer - B2B, Mezz, Carr or BWM all work.

This places even more demands on the CWBs, but has more cover in the middle. In that setup I often use a TF-S alongside a PF or AF.

I have never tried a Wide TM.

As an aside, I rarely if ever use DLPs. They are too passive for me. If they are good enough to dictate play then I want them more actively involved as a RPM or AP; if they are defensively strong I would rather they play as a BWM or Anchor. And the DM-S is a better hybrid role, IMO.

Edited February 15 by NineCloudNine

[Duracellio]

20 horas atrás, KlaaZ disse:

Just regarding the DLP(S) question, have you considered an RPM instead? I could be wrong but I believe he would shuttle between boxes and thus provide more of an attacking outlet as well.

And not as agressive (vertically speaking) as an BBM. I like the idea, I think i'll go with it.

[KlaaZ]

2 hours ago, Duracellio said:

And not as agressive (vertically speaking) as an BBM. I like the idea, I think i'll go with it.

Fun fact, I'm trying something similar in my third season at OHL. Became champions twice in a row, first season with a 3421 formation, second season a 433 DM gegenpress. Preseason of the third was horrible so I'm in the process of building a new 433, will try to make a post later today or tomorrow with more detail. Biggest gripe is that I tend to dominate and usually go ahead but once my opponents come out of their shell, I look too vulnerable at the back.

[Tazzer]

Hi all,

 

Any idea how I can this tactic to work better... I seem to be relatively strong defensively but struggle to create clear goal scoring opportunities. I do have the majority of possession in most matches.

 

I'm performing about as expected but I am struggling to push on

[NineCloudNine]

Deleting duplicate post

Edited February 16 by NineCloudNine