Teaser Thread No 3: Closing Down

[wwfan]

Closing down translates as how quickly and how far a player will leave his defensive position to deal with an attacking threat. Setting it too high throughout the team will lead to defensive structure disintegrating as players chase their opponents all over the pitch. It will also result in a lot of tired legs and defensive errors during the latter stages of a match. Setting it too low will see players backing off and backing off, allowing the opposition time and space to make through passes and set up for shots in dangerous positions.

Generally, closing down will work best if players perform it in relation to their position. Forwards are positioned high up the pitch, so need to close down more aggressively than their defensive counter-parts. Midfielders will be somewhere between the two. With this in mind, it is advisable to use your goalkeeper and central defensive pairing as a base and grade upwards from there. For lower level, poorly conditioned and ill-disciplined squads you should veer towards the lower end of the closing down spectrum. For quality, hard working, fit and disciplined sides, you should veer towards maximum settings.

Using the DC’s mentality as a base (x), closing down should roughly conform to the following minimum to maximum settings:

• GK/DC: x

• FB/WB: x + 1 to x + 4

• DMC/MCd: x + 2 to x + 6

• MCa/AMC/Wingers: x + 3 to x + 8

• FCs: x + 4 to x + 10

As highlighted above, when choosing the correct settings for your team, it is important to recognise whether the closing down structure is too aggressive for the type of football your players, in terms of fitness, tactical discipline and technique, are capable of playing. A key indicator that closing down is too high is seeing your players running around like headless chickens and finishing games in a state of semi-exhaustion. This is likely to be quite common for high pressing tactics in lower level football. If you notice your players, either individually or as a unit, closing down to the extent that your defensive formation shape suffers, reduce individual closing down settings until you are happy with performance. Alternatively, you might decide to play a more cautious game or conserve player energy in easy matches, which will also require the reduction of closing down. The indicator that you have gone too low is seeing the opposition having time and space in front of the back line to pick their through balls and compose themselves to make consistently effective long range shots.

It is also important to recognise the distinct closing down patterns in different footballing cultures, with sides from hotter countries more focused on conserving energy than pressing the opposition at pace. In contrast, colder countries generally employ far higher levels of closing down.

4-3-2-1 Download Link

[ssestig]

very good and helpful opening post wwfan. will look tomorrow when i'm next on the game.

[voidex]

It is also important to recognise the distinct closing down patterns in different footballing cultures, with sides from hotter countries more focused on conserving energy than pressing the opposition at pace. In contrast, colder countries generally employ far higher levels of closing down.

4-3-2-1 Download Link

Can't wait to see the community guide. What's up with the tactic download link? Is this a new tactic reference for FM2009?

[Deltaroad]

So what you are saying is

DC Men = 10, Closing Down = 10

FB/WB Men = 12 Closing Down = 13-17

DMC/MCd Men =14, Closing Down = 16 -20

MCa/AMC/Wingers Men = 15 Closing down = 18

etc etc et?

[wwfan]

So what you are saying is

DC Men = 10, Closing Down = 10

FB/WB Men = 12 Closing Down = 13-17

DMC/MCd Men =14, Closing Down = 16 -20

MCa/AMC/Wingers Men = 15 Closing down = 18

etc etc et?

If that is how you are structuring your mentality, yes.

Can't wait to see the community guide. What's up with the tactic download link? Is this a new tactic reference for FM2009?

It's a totally generic default tactic you can use instead of the ones in the game. It will all be explained in the full guide, which will be supported by 72 variants of these tactics/tactic sets. For now, it is just to allow people play around with the Demo and gain some understanding of how things work.

[zeusbheld]

It is also important to recognise the distinct closing down patterns in different footballing cultures, with sides from hotter countries more focused on conserving energy than pressing the opposition at pace. In contrast, colder countries generally employ far higher levels of closing down.

interesting and sensible. i had never thought of that...

it does make for a comical mental picture though: total football, really, was just about those Dutch players keeping warm.

[tony23]

hi..just download the 4-3-2-1 tactic and use it with chelsea and the outcome isnt too good. only win 1-0 against weak club and lose 1-0 against benfica. i havent tweaked the tactic at all and leave the tactic as it is. one last thing is the tactic generates a lot number of offside.any idea how to make this tactic works for chelsea?

thanks

[Deltaroad]

wwfan make a thread and add the links to those teasers will you. Makes it easier for people to find things.

[rakhabbit]

so in the feedback section is the phrase "xyz player is getting skinned" a good indication that you have closing down set to high for that particular player ?

[Richard76]

So what you are saying is

DC Men = 10, Closing Down = 10

FB/WB Men = 12 Closing Down = 13-17

DMC/MCd Men =14, Closing Down = 16 -20

MCa/AMC/Wingers Men = 15 Closing down = 18

etc etc et?

I would have thought 10 was far too high for any CB???

In my opinion this will lead to him charging forward to close down and break up the defensive line.

[Deltaroad]

Well that is an attacking formation

[Tottiseiya]

Really expect the 4th thread.

[Colorado]

It is also important to recognise the distinct closing down patterns in different footballing cultures, with sides from hotter countries more focused on conserving energy than pressing the opposition at pace. In contrast, colder countries generally employ far higher levels of closing down.

I would just like to ask you about the above. How sure are you that teams in hotter/cooler countries adapt their tatics like you suggest?

I played once in Colombia where it was almost always way above 30 degrees which impacted greatly on players fatigue but I didn't really notice teams where conserving their energy. The AI teams were regularly finishing the game with players on 50-60% fitness.

Another excellent post btw!

[Colorado]

so in the feedback section is the phrase "xyz player is getting skinned" a good indication that you have closing down set to high for that particular player ?

I'm sure there are others which are better equipped to answer this one, but I wouldn't of thought that is purely down to closing down, although it could be a factor.

My thinking is attributes like pace, positional sense, decisions, concentraition could also come into the equation as would Forwards runs etc.

[Millie]

so in the feedback section is the phrase "xyz player is getting skinned" a good indication that you have closing down set to high for that particular player ?

I'm sure there are others which are better equipped to answer this one, but I wouldn't of thought that is purely down to closing down, although it could be a factor.

My thinking is attributes like pace, positional sense, decisions, concentraition could also come into the equation as would Forwards runs etc.

I think Colorado is spot on. CD is a factor, certainly (since the player is comiting himself too much and letting the opposition get by him). However, you have to account for player ability and reaction speed, mentality (leaving him exposed), forward runs, defensive line, cover from surrounding players, etc.

I tend to think of it as the player not being able 100% to play the system you're asking him to properly, and you will either need to have the player sit back more to avoid players running beyond him or provide cover for him so someone can follow up the attacker when he skins you man.

I would have thought 10 was far too high for any CB???

In my opinion this will lead to him charging forward to close down and break up the defensive line.

First, I would suggest you play the tactics before making that judgement call. We've found it keeps the team playing as a team, and as yet I've yet to see suicidal DCs in the penalty area for a cross.

Bear in mind he has rarely FWRs and RWB, little creative freedom and is playing centre back. You need to keep mentalities close together to avoid gaps (and to avoid the assistant moaning), so the DCs de facto have to have a reasonably high mentality to allow the FCs to attack.

Try the settings, and you'll see it's not a suicidal as you think. Nowhere near, in fact.

I would just like to ask you about the above. How sure are you that teams in hotter/cooler countries adapt their tatics like you suggest?

I played once in Colombia where it was almost always way above 30 degrees which impacted greatly on players fatigue but I didn't really notice teams where conserving their energy. The AI teams were regularly finishing the game with players on 50-60% fitness.

Another excellent post btw!

First, that might be the game's AI not taking into account something which it should.

Second, if you watch Spanish, Italian or Brazilian football you'll notice a stark tempo difference between Britian, Scandanavia, Germany etc. Though it's too crude to say "northerners fast, southerners slow" (there are marked differences between Spain and Itlay, Germany and Scotland), you tend to notice a far more patient build up in hotter countries. It's a culture which, generally speaking, has resulted because of the climate.

In the game, it's a good way to ensure player's don't kill themselves in the heat. And, since Italian teams tend to be slower in the build up, it's a good way to help the team adapt to your tactics, since they should be used to the lower tempo.

As an example, I signed Edu from a Spanish club for Arsenal and threw him into my starting lineup with my high-tempo, English 4-5-1/4-3-3 set up. The assman was complaining non-stop that he "wasn't used to closing down so much", "wasn't used to playing so direct", "wasn't used to playing so quick". I'm not quoting this as proof in anyway, but there are definitely "cultures" in this version of FM, and it's a good idea to be at least aware of them so you can adapt if "plan A" runs into problems.

[Mitja]

Second, if you watch Spanish, Italian or Brazilian football you'll notice a stark tempo difference between Britian, Scandanavia, Germany etc. Though it's too crude to say "northerners fast, southerners slow" (there are marked differences between Spain and Itlay, Germany and Scotland), you tend to notice a far more patient build up in hotter countries. It's a culture which, generally speaking, has resulted because of the climate.

In the game, it's a good way to ensure player's don't kill themselves in the heat. And, since Italian teams tend to be slower in the build up, it's a good way to help the team adapt to your tactics, since they should be used to the lower tempo.

As an example, I signed Edu from a Spanish club for Arsenal and threw him into my starting lineup with my high-tempo, English 4-5-1/4-3-3 set up. The assman was complaining non-stop that he "wasn't used to closing down so much", "wasn't used to playing so direct", "wasn't used to playing so quick". I'm not quoting this as proof in anyway, but there are definitely "cultures" in this version of FM, and it's a good idea to be at least aware of them so you can adapt if "plan A" runs into problems.

you're defenetly spot on about it. personally i think bringing 'cultures' into FM is awsome idea.

[Colorado]

I sincerly hope you are right about the introduction of different footballing cultures as it would add alot more depth to the game.

[Richard76]

First, I would suggest you play the tactics before making that judgement call. We've found it keeps the team playing as a team, and as yet I've yet to see suicidal DCs in the penalty area for a cross.

Bear in mind he has rarely FWRs and RWB, little creative freedom and is playing centre back. You need to keep mentalities close together to avoid gaps (and to avoid the assistant moaning), so the DCs de facto have to have a reasonably high mentality to allow the FCs to attack.

Try the settings, and you'll see it's not a suicidal as you think. Nowhere near, in fact.

Will certianly give it a try.

It's well documented that mentality has to be set fairly close together from a CB to a ST.

So you recommend this for closing down as well?

[Millie]

Yes, though I do tend to knock it down a couple of notches across the board on attacking tactics with weaker teams. That's just a personal preference.

I've recently been trying this sort of set up with Real Madrid in a 4-2-3-1 formation and it looks stunning. The back line really get stuck in, but you know if playing a technically skilled side or a side looking to attack constantly that holes will appear.

As always, though, these settings are meant as rough guides for the defaults which can be ammended to suit individual needs/preferences.

[RTHerringbone]

Just like to thank you guys for posting these three threads.

I've used a lot of your ideas and my team is gradually improving as I tweak my tactics.

They definitely play "as a team" and are strong defensively.

I now need to balance that defensive and collective strength with some offensive creativity as while I regularly have 55% to 60% possession, I don't really carve out a proportionate number of chances (maybe 8-10 a game) or goals.

Will look forward to some advice in these areas in forthcoming teasers......

[Oncho Shaldzhiyan]

Great work, thank you wwfan

[rakhabbit]

I think Colorado is spot on. CD is a factor, certainly (since the player is comiting himself too much and letting the opposition get by him). However, you have to account for player ability and reaction speed, mentality (leaving him exposed), forward runs, defensive line, cover from surrounding players, etc.

I tend to think of it as the player not being able 100% to play the system you're asking him to properly, and you will either need to have the player sit back more to avoid players running beyond him or provide cover for him so someone can follow up the attacker when he skins you man.

Mostly get the message with CB's, so it's not the forward runs, thats on rarely. So i guess its D-Line & CD settings causing it. Although i guess defensive weakness is going to be inherant now in an attacking formation as the defence needs to be close to the midfield (mentality wise), as ive seen the effects of a defence-midfield gap and how easily the AI can exploit it.

I know L2 isn't really the optimum testing location for high pressure tactics, but i think i get a better feel for how stuff works with the crappier player at this level, most Premier Class players are good enough to play well even if given iffy instructions which makes less obvious tactical errors harder to spot.

[wwfan]

Cultural preferences have been in FM for a while now. With the Assistant Manager feedback it has become explicit in FM09.

Regarding scoring, the frameworks and tactics we have uploaded are pretty structured which means they are going to veer more towards the defensively solid end of the spectrum. Both Millie and I are finishing our testing on a final framework, based on Wenger, which is far more fluent in the final third. However, it does also seem to be slightly weaker defensively, which we are happy about as it was the assumption.

The high closing down DC isn't just OK, but it is a requiement with a high d-line. Imagine having a d-line at 15 with a DC closing down to 5. He will back-pedal to the edge of his area before stepping up to make a tackle, thus leaving acres of space in front of him for the opposing forwards and midfielders to flood into.

[DominicForza]

The high closing down DC isn't just OK, but it is a requiement with a high d-line. Imagine having a d-line at 15 with a DC closing down to 5. He will back-pedal to the edge of his area before stepping up to make a tackle, thus leaving acres of space in front of him for the opposing forwards and midfielders to flood into.

I have used just the opposite approach. I WANT my DCs to "back-pedal," giving space but maintaining position. The key is to have a defensive DM who closes down/collapses onto any attackers. The DM becomes the hammer and the DCs the anvil. In previous games barrows on the DCs did this; in 09 it has to be done with mentality. The high line in effect "bends," but it still has the advantage of compressing space in the midfield when defending.

Prior to 08 I always used a DM, but in 08 found a flatter midfield worked better (with one MC set very defensively). It is early days in 09 for me, but presently I am getting good results with an ultra defensive MC, or with two fairly defensive, holding MCs.

[pippo2401]

WWFAN. Thank you!

[Kazza]

Love all this stuff adds so much to the game.

Can I politely request that you have a glossary of terms in your opus magnus. I notice that some peeps do not understand all the abbreviations. And whilst I am sure most will be covered in the manual I suspect not all. If this is already covered apologies for wasting your time.

Thanks again for this excellent work.

K;)

[John Swarbrick]

So what you are saying is

DC Men = 10, Closing Down = 10

FB/WB Men = 12 Closing Down = 13-17

DMC/MCd Men =14, Closing Down = 16 -20

MCa/AMC/Wingers Men = 15 Closing down = 18

etc etc et?

No.

Let x be the mentality of the centre back, for example 10. Then the FB CD = 11-14. MCd = 12-16

[DominicForza]

These tactics work well for me, however I have problems with fatigue. The opposition player's condition is much higher by the end of the match (there is even a noticable difference in the first half). I suspect it is due to the high closing down.

Are other people experiencing this with high closing down? Maybe I am overtraining?

[bflaff]

Generally, closing down will work best if players perform it in relation to their position. Forwards are positioned high up the pitch, so need to close down more aggressively than their defensive counter-parts.

Had a question about this. I'm still stuck with FM07, so maybe things have changed now to the point where this is a moot question, but I was always mindful about keeping my forwards (and other attackers playing high up the pitch) free 'in space' to improve their attacking capabilities. (The idea being that if they constantly have an opp player sticking close, then it limits their ability to receive good balls, since balls to them are more likely to be challenged, passed towards the wrong foot, etc.)

Is that a bogus concern? I would think that sending your forwards to go after the ball with a high CD would keep them close to the opp players to a greater degree than if they were on a lower CD. If he's on a higher CD I would imagine that he'd be sometimes, or often, right there with an opp player when your team gains possession, which might make it more difficult for him to shake free of the defender and participate in an attack. On the other hand, if he was on a low CD, he would stay back from opp players in most situations, and hopefully be in a good position to start an attack more often.

I usually keep my forwards' CD below the midpoint unless a) I have a beast targetman type who can (theoretically) muscle the ball away from lesser players (Luca Toni?), and b) I see a need to pressure the other team out of possession.

[Snoweel]

I was always mindful about keeping my forwards (and other attackers playing high up the pitch) free 'in space' to improve their attacking capabilities. (The idea being that if they constantly have an opp player sticking close

That's marking.

Closing down is when your player moves toward an opposition player that is in possession of the ball.

[bflaff]

Thanks for the reply. But I'm talking specifically about positioning once their team gives the ball up to yours. A forward on my team that has been chasing the ball around is (in theory) more likely to start a possession already close by a defensive player (from the other team), making it easier for the opp team to react to the change in possession and move into position to mark my forward.

Obviously this isn't going to happen on every possession. If the ball is well out of his zone, an attacker isn't going to be chasing after it, and if his marking is low maybe he's going to be busy looking for open spaces to exploit on the comeback. But there should be more than an insignificant number of times that your forward is close to engaging an opp player when you win the ball back. And in that situation, wouldn't you be making it easier for them to get a body on your forward?

A forward that stays off the ball when the other team has possession might have a better chance, in theory, of being in space and relatively free of his marker when a change of possession happens.

I am of course open to the possibility that this is a bogus assumption. Maybe players engage and disengage their closing down efforts a lot faster than I am imagining, or are able to find space well enough regardless of where their marker is positioned after a change of possession.