Are we the beta testers or something?

[dimitris antonoglou]

Before i get into it i am not here to moan, hate, flame, troll... whatever..

I'm too old for all that, I just want to make a valid point. If your not gonna reply maturely, dont reply! Simple.

Everyone else all your ideas and opinions are greatly welcome.

Every year within a few days of the demo and even the retail game being released, a few obvious and widely reported bugs become apparent, this year its the injuries and the type sensitivity for example, last year was the player squad number registration bug etc etc

So what i'm wondering is does SI really have dedicated beta testers or are we doing what people who get paid should be doing?

I mean i love this game, always have and always will, but in the rush and clamour to provide a version every year its beginning to annoy me that half cooked products are being provided for us.

Obviously product testing and quality control seem to have been pushed on the back seat. The scary thing is even supposedly revolutionary new features, such as the 3D match engine seem unfinished, the player motions, reactions, movements seem like a throw back to gaming of 10-15 years ago.

I greatly appreciate all the effort, SI are putting in providing us with a product that gives us so much pleasure, but come on, i'm self employed and if anyone in my company provided such a half baked product as a finished article and expected me to put my name to it, I doubt they would have a job.

It all boils down to me personaly thinking SI are beginning to take the loyalty of their fan base for granted and that is not a good sign.

All opinions welcome, please lets have a constructive debate.

Seconded.

SI are not idiots since there are so many victims who are so keen on betatesting for free they will keep on doing it. Costs them nothing.

[Kriss]

So your happy to say that testing isnt performed due to time scales.

Time scales are only in place for one reason, xmas release.. To make money.. Disappointing im afraid..

Can you read? I said it is about timescales, I didn't mention marketing timescales.

I'm talking about development timescales for different modules and the timescale for which the finished article is even available for testing.

[Deltaroad]

That's exactly what they do, they have testers as far away as Japan.

The problem really is about timescales more than anything, developing goes on till the last minute which leaves very little time to test the final product.

Security issues mean anyway that you can't issue the gold product in full until a very late date.

The consquence is that the final finished game can't be tested intensively.

Of necessity most beta testing is done on modules or lite versions through most of the test period.

Rubbish. Utterly Rubbish!

Si have a whole year to develop the skeleton of the game. IE the features, interactions etc etc.

The core codes are all there from FM08 which people were happy about. All they have to do is add new features like more media interactions, players interactions, etc etc.

2 month before the release they should fully test it. I mean look it's took a few hours by online demo players to find a straight forward bugs like injuries (about 3000 people, lets say half of those respond online on forums).

IF SI really have testers in Japan and lets be face it, Japan is the biggest game playing nation. Then they should find obvious bugs like the injury bug.

I expect there to be bugs but only minor ones not majors ones that make the game unenjoyable.

[Parkera]

Yeah, I'm seriously giving some thought into waiting for CM09. Like a previous poster said CM (after the split) used to be a laughing stock, but tbh don't think thats the case anymore, and I seriously think SI may have some very stiff competition this year unless they pull something out the bag and produce a patch that makes FM09 worthy of playing and purchasing.

I agree with this! I got CM08 one day as it was cheap from store and i was a bit bored with FM08. I was pleasently surprised at how good it was, sure noticed a few issues but mostly due to the fact it was not FM. But even though i have not come across major issues yet I do find it annoying that every year we need to wait for a patch. I just saw that SI will realease a patch on release day, which is good but surely cmon....it should never have gotten that way! I would rather wiat till feb/mar 09 for the release if that means a completely tested and fixed game. Np releaseing a beta demo to the community around this time to help in this process but not to say hey here is the final product have a look!

[T4RG4]

I think Kriss, who probably knows far more about SI than any of us... has a valid point. It's unfortunate to be testing modules of the game, but this happens elsewhere and does have some benefits (feedback on fun, usability as well as stability and general bugs) during implementation.

They dont actually get 12 months of development time, at a guess I'd say 7-8 months which isnt all that long. Most games eat the first 6months faffing around so you need to get moving on day one if you're making a yearly version

The biggest thing in SI's favour though, is the fact they make the same game each year. This should improve (and I'm sure it has), their ability to design accurate test plans. If the same bugs appear in each version, for example (not confirmed at all) too many injuries, that'd be a poor showing.

I wouldnt have imagined they have loads of people in Japan testing, its just an example of how far and wide the test feedback is.

[H0pp1e]

Can you read? I said it is about timescales, I didn't mention marketing timescales.

I'm talking about development timescales for different modules and the timescale for which the finished article is even available for testing.

Yes i can read, quite well actually...

Regardless of wheather it is development or marketing time scale, they all lead to one thing, & thats the release of the game.

If theres not enough time to test something, its for 2 reasons : Delay in starting testing, or launch date is too near..

Now as Si werent prepared to move launch date, that means testing has to be sacrificed, thus we end up with the situation where in, & you have obvious mistakes released in the game code.

So why didnt they delay the release to iron out these obvious bugs.... Cause the release date couldn't be moved, as it has to be in the shops in time for xmas. Therefore they have released a poor product, that hasnt gone through complete end to end testing..

[RedRob]

Rubbish. Utterly Rubbish!

Si have a whole year to develop the skeleton of the game. IE the features, interactions etc etc.

The core codes are all there from FM08 which people were happy about. All they have to do is add new features like more media interactions, players interactions, etc etc.

2 month before the release they should fully test it. I mean look it's took a few hours by online demo players to find a straight forward bugs like injuries (about 3000 people, lets say half of those respond online on forums).

IF SI really have testers in Japan and lets be face it, Japan is the biggest game playing nation. Then they should find obvious bugs like the injury bug.

I expect there to be bugs but only minor ones not majors ones that make the game unenjoyable.

Testing is always going on, and I can tell you that having worked at SI in-house on testing for the last 2 versions. The idea that testing isn't an ongoing process is simply wrong.

[feedthegoat]

Yes i can read, quite well actually...

Regardless of wheather it is development or marketing time scale, they all lead to one thing, & thats the release of the game.

If theres not enough time to test something, its for 2 reasons : Delay in starting testing, or launch date is too near..

Now as Si werent prepared to move launch date, that means testing has to be sacrificed, thus we end up with the situation where in, & you have obvious mistakes released in the game code.

So why didnt they delay the release to iron out these obvious bugs.... Cause the release date couldn't be moved, as it has to be in the shops in time for xmas. Therefore they have released a poor product, that hasnt gone through complete end to end testing..

Completely agree. How many times have you gone into Game or Gamestation to buy a game that is due out only to be told sorry no it's been delayed, personally I wouldn't have been bothered if the game had been delayed until late November early December, I could suggest it as a pressie for my Xmas present! but seriously I'd have rather SI had held the release date back say a month and released a beta demo than release a demo of the game that has now gone gold as is of very poor quality.

[Che1974]

It's just not good enough SI.

In todays financial climate to expect people to fork out £30+ for FM 08 with a new skin is a disgrace. It is literally the same game, the press conference is a glorified media comment, its pretty much the same questions over and over and after 5 matches the novelty has well and truly worn off.

And the 3D, do me a favour it just looks like sensible soccer 95 if that took a whole year to develop, SI need to invest in some better programmers. All the bugs from 08 are back, it is like SI have been in the pub for 9 months, and suddenly realised its near Christmas, so chucked out 08 panicked slapped on a new skin and bunged in this 3D nonsense.

FM 09 is NOT a new game, charging full whack is pathetic, it is 8.0.4 and should be £5 and marketed as an official update, because thats what it feels like.

Sorry SI i do love you and your games, but this time you have gone too far, you got away with 07, and 08 being riddled with bugs but this is extracting the urine big style.

[Wee Aja]

It's just not good enough SI.

In todays financial climate to expect people to fork out £30+ for FM 08 with a new skin is a disgrace. It is literally the same game, the press conference is a glorified media comment, its pretty much the same questions over and over and after 5 matches the novelty has well and truly worn off.

And the 3D, do me a favour it just looks like sensible soccer 95 if that took a whole year to develop, SI need to invest in some better programmers. All the bugs from 08 are back, it is like SI have been in the pub for 9 months, and suddenly realised its near Christmas, so chucked out 08 panicked slapped on a new skin and bunged in this 3D nonsense.

FM 09 is NOT a new game, charging full whack is pathetic, it is 8.0.4 and should be £5 and marketed as an official update, because thats what it feels like.

Sorry SI i do love you and your games, but this time you have gone too far, you got away with 07, and 08 being riddled with bugs but this is extracting the urine big style.

Apparently, they've been developing the 3D for THREE years.

I can't really draw an opinion on it, as my laptop only just meets the requirements and I expected it to be disappointing, for me at least.

[Kriss]

Think I'll give up, there are none as blind as those who don't want to see.

[Scott_90]

.Why does this all really matter? We are kind of testers to perfect the game, this is sorted by the 1st patch released like in a few weeks after release and it will all be perfected again .

[Carl87]

.Why does this all really matter? We are kind of testers to perfect the game, this is sorted by the 1st patch released like in a few weeks after release and it will all be perfected again .

I like your optimism.

[H0pp1e]

Think I'll give up, there are none as blind as those who don't want to see.

Sincerely hoping your talking about yourself there, or are you implying all the people who pay good money for these games year after year & are on this forum & many others complaining that a game with basic faults has been released are wrong ?

Pull your head out of your arse & see yet again, its a disappointing release that will require a patch on release day, then one 3 months later, then one 6 months later..

Si are taking their fan base for granted...

[Spagbol]

Yeah, I'm seriously giving some thought into waiting for CM09. Like a previous poster said CM (after the split) used to be a laughing stock, but tbh don't think thats the case anymore, and I seriously think SI may have some very stiff competition this year unless they pull something out the bag and produce a patch that makes FM09 worthy of playing and purchasing.

Have you seen the new screenshots of the match engine? I'm certain they released them today because they saw how bad the FM one was. The CM09 one looks pretty darned ace, it's basically what the FM one wanted to be.

Did you also see Fifa Manager 09 has added loads of things like a completely 100% customisable editor, so you can add everything from cup competitions to entire pyramids of leagues? Thus within the game being available for two months you will be able to download a patch or two and pretty much have every decent league in the world available? That's insane. Things like that down to an 'unsackable manager' mode which is a selectable/de-selectable option has made me ponder this year's release. Also you can set up youth camps in one of a gajillion countries and see youth players of that nationality come through your ranks.

Both dev teams have gone away and said they've worked wholesale on the tactics and match engine. Something which FM seems to not have had work on for two or three years now...

It looks to me like the two games which people laughed at, went away, looked at where they were going wrong, raided these forums as well as their own and incorporated features that people wanted. Obviously the best way to take a slice of FM's fanbase is to give it's fans what they want and to do the new things FM is doing, but better.

Now we're in a situation where FM09 will be released to a Fifa Manager 09 which is in the shops (following a closed beta and public demo) with a first if not second patch, and everyone in the knowledge that FM09 won't be running properly till about February, if the previous two years are anything to go by. About six weeks before CM09 launches.

There's little point in anyone who doesn't like the demo of FM09 buying it on release, which creates the interesting situation this year where SI have lost a yard or two to the competition and on FM09's release day they will now be a step behind the competition this year.

[4Site]

.Why does this all really matter? We are kind of testers to perfect the game, this is sorted by the 1st patch released like in a few weeks after release and it will all be perfected again .

Okay 2 points. 1stly was the bugs in FM08 sorted out by patch 1? I dont think they were.

And 2nd even if they were, how does it feel to willing accept a product where u need a patch on the first day of its release just to make it function? Do you not feel theres a fundamental flaw here?

What happens if one day SI decide to charge for patches?

[Spagbol]

The match engine is superb, and I know that from BETA testing Live. The 3D makes it so much more enthralling, and I was converted from the first minute.

There is no way I'm going anywhere near the steaming pile of turd that is the CM franchise, its half the game FM is. I don't think they're going to survive much longer, especially leaving it so late until next year.

I'm pretty sure SI wouldn't want you saying about having worked as a beta tester on Football Manager, then with the next breath commenting that you don't think Eidos will last much longer so you should keep away from a rival game.

[Scotty Walds]

Apparently, they've been developing the 3D for THREE years

No, they've wanted to bring it in for the past 3 years.

[CowSimao]

I'm not SI.

There is an external testing program too. We all have vastly different specs.

Then you'd think that at least 1 out of many would have noticed the typing problem.

Which leads us to the point, wtf are they doing?

[Ackter]

Si have a whole year to develop the skeleton of the game. IE the features, interactions etc etc.

Just to call you up on this point (I didn't bother reading further because if you start your post with such an obviously misguided claim then the rest of it can't be up to much) - SI do not have a whole year to work on a game, they have approximately 6 months. A lot of that will be taken up with development, with the remaining time being dedicated to bug fixing and testing.

Games far, far simpler with much longer development and testing periods, have far worse problems. Let's take Fable as an example - the first Fable game was released in 2005, the latest one released a few weeks ago. On release it had a handful of serious game-stopping bugs, one of which stopped you from actually completing the game after only an hour or so of play. Now Fable II is a linear (mostly) adventure game where 100% of what can happen in it was pre-planned. FM, on the other hand, has a massive amount of randomness with things that happen that only a few of the 100,000 gamers will actually see.

It's all a matter of scope.

[Ackter]

Then you'd think that at least 1 out of many would have noticed the typing problem.

Which leads us to the point, wtf are they doing?

It's a problem that only effects a comparitively small number of users in limited circumstances. It's easily conceivable that the beta testing team didn't come across it - it's a lot rarer than you think.

[Kriss]

Have you seen the new screenshots of the match engine? I'm certain they released them today because they saw how bad the FM one was. The CM09 one looks pretty darned ace, it's basically what the FM one wanted to be.

Did you also see Fifa Manager 09 has added loads of things like a completely 100% customisable editor, so you can add everything from cup competitions to entire pyramids of leagues? Thus within the game being available for two months you will be able to download a patch or two and pretty much have every decent league in the world available? That's insane. Things like that down to an 'unsackable manager' mode which is a selectable/de-selectable option has made me ponder this year's release. Also you can set up youth camps in one of a gajillion countries and see youth players of that nationality come through your ranks.

Both dev teams have gone away and said they've worked wholesale on the tactics and match engine. Something which FM seems to not have had work on for two or three years now...

It looks to me like the two games which people laughed at, went away, looked at where they were going wrong, raided these forums as well as their own and incorporated features that people wanted. Obviously the best way to take a slice of FM's fanbase is to give it's fans what they want and to do the new things FM is doing, but better.

Now we're in a situation where FM09 will be released to a Fifa Manager 09 which is in the shops (following a closed beta and public demo) with a first if not second patch, and everyone in the knowledge that FM09 won't be running properly till about February, if the previous two years are anything to go by. About six weeks before CM09 launches.

There's little point in anyone who doesn't like the demo of FM09 buying it on release, which creates the interesting situation this year where SI have lost a yard or two to the competition and on FM09's release day they will now be a step behind the competition this year.

Just one minor flaw in that argument, CM09 doesn't even release this year, they have a tentative date of April 09, you really think that will affect FM sales?

BGS have a huge problem, because having kept their fans patchless and data updateless for 08 they then put back 09 till April (possibly)

To me that means that when it does come it has to be near perfect and even if it is, releasing at the end of the season is a gamble in itself.

I have no desire to see CM go down the pan as I believe competition is healthy, but atm they're not even on the course, let alone in the race.

[4Site]

Ackter:

I think its weak to argue that because other game developers follow the trend we should accept things as they stand, if something is wrong in principle regardless of how many people do it or how acceptable it is it is still wrong, don't you think?

In regards to the typing error, its weird that a comparitively small number of users seem to be such a massive majority on this forum.

[wwfan]

In regards to the typing error, its weird that a comparitively small number of users seem to be such a massive majority on this forum.

However, it is rather unlikely that someone who can type properly will write in saying' Yesssssssssss!!!! I can type in FM without letters appearing twice when I press each key. Good job SI'.

[Kriss]

Ackter:

In regards to the typing error, its weird that a comparitively small number of users seem to be such a massive majority on this forum.

Take a head count and print it as a percentage of A, users of the forum and/or B. Total number who dowloaded the demo, otherwise you're making a huge and totally unjustified assumption based on how loud a minority shout.

I don't dispute it's a real problem to them but at least a fix has been promised for release for this particular issue.

[Ackter]

Ackter:

I think its weak to argue that because other game developers follow the trend we should accept things as they stand, if something is wrong in principle regardless of how many people do it or how acceptable it is it is still wrong, don't you think?

In regards to the typing error, its weird that a comparitively small number of users seem to be such a massive majority on this forum.

I'll run through it again quickly, as you seemed to miss the point.

It's a simple matter of scope - try and understand how much SI try to achieve in the small amount of time they actually have to work in. That's the only issue I'm touching in this thread, an attempt to help this understanding - it's then up to you to make an educated and constructive comment on it.

[4Site]

No i totally agree with the whole lack of development time in between editions in the series issue, infact a few posts ago i also asked whether the whole bug and patch process was taking resources and time away from the development of the new incarnation.

[goldman]

I wonder how major bugs such as the injury bug are not picked up by the SI testers.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

I heard that Peter Schmeichel got hit in the eye with a coin from an angry fan behind the goals and all the players inverted and started running around the pitch on their heads, break-dance style!

[kb77]

Before i get into it i am not here to moan, hate, flame, troll... whatever..

I'm too old for all that, I just want to make a valid point. If your not gonna reply maturely, dont reply! Simple.

Everyone else all your ideas and opinions are greatly welcome.

Every year within a few days of the demo and even the retail game being released, a few obvious and widely reported bugs become apparent, this year its the injuries and the type sensitivity for example, last year was the player squad number registration bug etc etc

So what i'm wondering is does SI really have dedicated beta testers or are we doing what people who get paid should be doing?

I mean i love this game, always have and always will, but in the rush and clamour to provide a version every year its beginning to annoy me that half cooked products are being provided for us.

Obviously product testing and quality control seem to have been pushed on the back seat. The scary thing is even supposedly revolutionary new features, such as the 3D match engine seem unfinished, the player motions, reactions, movements seem like a throw back to gaming of 10-15 years ago.

I greatly appreciate all the effort, SI are putting in providing us with a product that gives us so much pleasure, but come on, i'm self employed and if anyone in my company provided such a half baked product as a finished article and expected me to put my name to it, I doubt they would have a job.

It all boils down to me personaly thinking SI are beginning to take the loyalty of their fan base for granted and that is not a good sign.

All opinions welcome, please lets have a constructive debate.

I completely agree. The only thing that will fix this will be for them to take a hit in sales. If sales are considerably lower this year compared to previous years, you can be sure that not only they will listen to the fans but will produce a more solid product next year.

As long as people just buy the product, just because they always have, you will see this kind of mess every year

[Spagbol]

Just one minor flaw in that argument, CM09 doesn't even release this year, they have a tentative date of April 09, you really think that will affect FM sales?

Sure, following on from 07 and 08 running like two legged dogs out of the box more and more people have decided to hang back till the game's patched. The FM09 demo may well encourage people to wait. If they decide not to give Fifa Manager a go, they could pick up FM09 for about £15/£20 in Feb when the third update's out and if it still wasn't up to scratch CM09 April/May time.

BGS have all ready said that there will be a free data update for the start of the following season.

If FM09 goes all CM4 and people buy CM09 and enjoy it, do you really think they'll be encouraged to move back and spend £30/£40 on FM10, which chances are will once more run like a two legged dog out of the box, when they can have a data update for CM09 for free? Or will they hang for patches and a lower price tag?

[Deltaroad]

Just to call you up on this point (I didn't bother reading further because if you start your post with such an obviously misguided claim then the rest of it can't be up to much) - SI do not have a whole year to work on a game, they have approximately 6 months. A lot of that will be taken up with development, with the remaining time being dedicated to bug fixing and testing.

Games far, far simpler with much longer development and testing periods, have far worse problems. Let's take Fable as an example - the first Fable game was released in 2005, the latest one released a few weeks ago. On release it had a handful of serious game-stopping bugs, one of which stopped you from actually completing the game after only an hour or so of play. Now Fable II is a linear (mostly) adventure game where 100% of what can happen in it was pre-planned. FM, on the other hand, has a massive amount of randomness with things that happen that only a few of the 100,000 gamers will actually see.

It's all a matter of scope.

Blaming a half made game on time schedule is rubbish excuse. There are plenty of games out there who can manage to put out a fully working game without major bugs on release date so why can't SI?

SI have alot of testers, both online and official testers. The last two/three releases have been the previous release plus a patch update. There is no major new feature that stands out. Just a novelty feature here and there.

Again I can understand minor bugs but major bugs such as injury, closing down bug and shots to goal ratio bug should have been easily identify.

[Wakers]

There's no point sticking up for SI here - if you're struggling to make a properly working game in 6 months then for god's sake DON'T RELEASE THE DAMN THING UNTIL ITS READY!

Do SI honestly think that releasing a barely working game in November is better than releasing a fully working game in Jan/Feb?

[Mahr]

Yes, we apparently are beta testers. SI should fire the in-house testers, if they have any! The game is having issues across the board - from the 3d, to transfer system to typing errors and data-input mistakes. I guess it's good to know that they'll be patching it, but I agree that delaying something that's not finished is smarter.

[elgreenio]

Then you need new testers because they find absolutely nothing year in, year out. FM09 is going to be the buggiest incarnation since CM4 at this rate.

surely you would have to see it before testing to comment.

You never know guys, they could have sorted millions of bugs for us. the typing thing only seems to happen on some systems, inccclluuudinnng mmmiiine. The injury bug is not really up tot hem but up to the guys at physioroom.com as miles has said. I'm sure there will be a release day patch and we'll be good to go until a big patch a month or so down the line

[Wakers]

surely you would have to see it before testing to comment.

You never know guys, they could have sorted millions of bugs for us. the typing thing only seems to happen on some systems, inccclluuudinnng mmmiiine. The injury bug is not really up tot hem but up to the guys at physioroom.com as miles has said. I'm sure there will be a release day patch and we'll be good to go until a big patch a month or so down the line

Sorry, but the last three releases have had some major and obvious bugs in them on release that can be spotted after five minutes of playing. That is down to poor/non existent testing.

[Deltaroad]

Why doesn't SI release it Jan? Take more time on it and gather the post Christmas shoppers?

A better idea is not release anything for a year, spend time making a great game and release it after the transfer window in Sept?

Seems like SI is just bothered about sales rather then making a good enjoyable game.

[Deltaroad]

Sorry, but the last three releases have had some major and obvious bugs in them on release that can be spotted after five minutes of playing. That is down to poor/non existent testing.

I don't know about you but from previous experience the major patch in Feb always messes up my fully working winning tactic I had working with the bugs.

[Wakers]

Why doesn't SI release it Jan? Take more time on it and gather the post Christmas shoppers?

A better idea is not release anything for a year, spend time making a great game and release it after the transfer window in Sept?

Seems like SI is just bothered about sales rather then making a good enjoyable game.

Exactly. And yes, its hard to start a long term game until the final patch is out.

[fluffy_sheep2]

I personally don't have a problem with being a "beta tester" to be honest. I can't understand why everyone's kicking off about it. The demo has only been out a couple of days and everyone's ready to hang SI already. They'll get it right in the end, they always do.

Nobody has had to pay for anything yet either. The demo is free and the forums are free (to check on issues with the demo etc.). We play the demo, find the bits that don't work, post them in correct way on the forum, and SI will get to it.

[treble_yell_:-)]

forum warriors hoooooooooooooooooooo

[4Site]

That is one of my major quabbles, I have kinda gotten fed up of not being able to start a career game until february without my enjoyment of the game being hindered by glaring bugs.

People react like SI is still the bedroom programming dynamic duo of the col. bros. Come one now its a multi-million pound company that has plenty of resources, it seems to make enough money year in year out, with its record breaking sale runs.

If there isn't enough time, hire more people to get it ready for release day, simple.