Conceding From Crosses

[Jonathon.Skinner]

So I'm about halfway into my first season managing Lyon and i'm getting really frustrated with the amount of times I concede from crosses, so much so that i'm starting to think that there's something wrong with the match engine not my tactics.

The formation I'm currently running is a 4-1-2-1-2 so obviously there is the potential to be attacked down the flanks however I'm not exactly worried about the amount of crosses the other team are getting in, it's more about the alarming rate at which successful crosses are scored from. If it would be helpful, my tactic is as follows

Rafael (WB/S) - Mbiwa (CD/D) - Umtiti (BPD/D) - Bedimo (WB/S)

-------------------------Sergi Darder (DLP/D)

----------------Gonalons (BWM/S) - Tolisso (CM/D)

---------------------------Valbuena (AP/S)

-------------------Lacazette (P/A) - Fekir (CF/S)

In my most recent match against a mid table team in the Ligue 1 I conceded 5 goals and they were all from crosses. It's getting really frustrating and I was wondering if anybody else was having the same problem or has any idea of what's going so horribly wrong in my tactic.

[RTHerringbone]

There are a couple of ME issues relating to defending, but to be honest the main issue here is the formation. If you aren't worried about crosses, then you need to be! The conversion only happens because the cross occurs. It's no different to other scenarios leading to goals conceded; if you concede from passes in behind your defence, you do something. If you concede from passes in behind a specific full back, you do something.

[Jonathon.Skinner]

Yeah i suspected that the formation may be the issue to due the full backs being required to provide all the width in the team AND defend the flanks. Only thing is, I'm not exactly sure how i can change this as I don't have a single winger in the squad.

[RTHerringbone]

You'll get more natural width if you change to a 4-3-1-2 or 4-1-3-2. Both, if set up right, will play like a diamond but will defender a bit better from the MC line. I'm a cautious player so would drag Valbuena back in the central MC position.

[Jonathon.Skinner]

Alright, will give that a try. Really appreciate your help. I'll make sure to post if i have success with it or not.

[Harpoon76]

I would respectfully disagree with RTHerringbone - I've tried a 4-1-3-2. AI racked up 67 crosses. Have a thread in Bug Reports but here's the proof:

Previous best was 63 crosses from an AI team with only FBs out wide.

Bug thread here

[Jonathon.Skinner]

i personally agree with you that there's a bug in the game regarding crosses, however, I think RTHerringbone was trying to show me how to counter it and prevent the crosses from happening

[GR Choke]

Don't tight mark the wingers. If they have good off the ball your defenders that have less pace will be done.

If they play wide and your winger is on attack duty your FBs are alone...

Also, if you see the other team using the flanks, drop your wingers to support duty and your FBs to support or defend.

Lower your D-line to leave less space behind

tick "stay in positions" so they dont' get dragged

Don't press all the field so they don't get dragged

use hard tackle.

Don't use a lot of fluidity.

Change mentality to counter

from here http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2016-tactics/351870-cant-defend-crosses-2.html

[DavidPengilley]

I have a similar formation to you OP, but I have 5 at the back instead. The extra CB means that I hold numerical supremacy vs. 2 forwards and means we have an easier time snuffing out the forwards if a cross comes in.

When playing with 2 CBs, if I can see 1 particular winger is giving my WB grief, I set him on defend, stand off more and consider pressing less before also targeting him with show onto weaker foot. If thing still look bad, man marking him and try to cut out the ball even getting to him. Reactively adjusting my tactics to tackle a specific threat seems to be having some success. I'm on on FM at the moment, but I'll dig through some matches where I've done that if this thread is still going on later/tomorrow.

[johnnyyakuza78]

People are calling this a bug, but actually what I think it is, is a fix. Previous versions of FM seemed to give fullbacks and wingbacks who had zero cover, a free pass when it came to defending and you could get away with two CWBs flying up and down the wings without being massacred every game. Seems like FM16 has fixed that a little bit.

If you are playing a formation where the fullbacks have no cover in front of them, and you come up against a formation that has 4 players on the flanks (442, 433, 4231) and they use wingers then you are going to be putting those players under a hell of a lot of pressure. Having wingbacks will only made the problem worse against faster wingers as they will be caught out.

The solution would be to play another player on that flank to help out, so a 442 for example, or even as has been suggested playing 3 at the back to keep more bodies back to head away crosses.

But playing such a narrow formation and complaining that it must a bug that crosses are overpowered is a bit silly.

[SWaRFeGa]

I struggled with it for about nine seasons before coming up with a 3-5-2 (wingback) option that doesn't concede many at all.

[WayneRomney]

A 4-4-2 or 4-1-4-1 with support duties in the midfield will help. Also the 4-1-2-3 Wide (check out the Possession thread from Cleon) with support duties will help.

I initially thought that by using [a lot] of OI's I could prevent this, but it will just disrupt your shape in the end. So having enough people behind the ball will minimize the problem.

[-Jef-]

I put my wing-backs to Full back support and also put my centre backs to cover role. I also activated wait for overlap instruction to mimic WB role but to also give me more time with the ball.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

People are calling this a bug, but actually what I think it is, is a fix. Previous versions of FM seemed to give fullbacks and wingbacks who had zero cover, a free pass when it came to defending and you could get away with two CWBs flying up and down the wings without being massacred every game. Seems like FM16 has fixed that a little bit.

Actually I remember 15 (or 14) getting a load of complaints about the effectiveness of crossing and goals. I think the 'fix' of reducing crossing was disappointing - the 'stuttering' wait until they're closed down on the byline. But then, I like a good old cross.

i personally agree with you that there's a bug in the game regarding crosses, however, I think RTHerringbone was trying to show me how to counter it and prevent the crosses from happening

I'm watching some games cos I use a 4-1-3-2 at the moment, with complete wing backs.

I only see a lot of crosses on one side of the flank. On that side I have a B2B midfielder, on the opposite, more secure flank, I run a CM/S. Whether it is the B2B's roaming that is the problem I don't know yet.

[Acquafresca]

Changing the closing down of my backs, helped me defending crosses. The wingers of AI just dont know what to do when there is no pressure.

[Marc Albrighton]

Think a lot of it is just how this years game is, i would say atleast 60% of the goals i see for and against are from crosses even if the marking and positioning is all pretty good.

[CityAndColour]

I think the bigger issue is how the crosses are defended in the box. it gets worse the lower down the leagues you go (at least in England anyway) as the quality of the crosses does not seem to lessen.

[fm_08/09]

A potential solution to the problem with crosses is to set the highlights to "Extended".  When highlights is set to "Key" you see the worst of your back line and Gk. It is like you chose to watch those highlights that either involved goals or clear cut chances, That is, when your defenders and GK were beaten. 

I had the same problem until last night. Every other cross was a goal, my defenders were clueless and GK couldn't save two shots in row. My team would control the game with a %60+ of possession and twice the number of shoots but I'd end up losing. I thought the problem was the ME and I even stopped playing FM16 in a hope that FM17 would fix the "bug". However, since I changes to EXTENDED last night, I can see the good efforts my defenders put in to defend crosses. 

Cheers,

[isignedupfornorealreason]

45 minutes ago, fm_08/09 said:

However, since I changes to EXTENDED last night, I can see the good efforts my defenders put in to defend crosses. 

I disagree with that. Extended can amplify the issue because you will start seeing very similar patterns of movement when it comes to the cross-cum-goal scenario.

FWIW I play on Extended all the time in 16 and was in agreement that crossing stuck out like a sore thumb. There was a good topic discussion about it over in general highlighting the issues with defending them, so I don't have much to add really.

[BlueAnderson]

29 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I disagree with that. Extended can amplify the issue because you will start seeing very similar patterns of movement when it comes to the cross-cum-goal scenario.

FWIW I play on Extended all the time in 16 and was in agreement that crossing stuck out like a sore thumb. There was a good topic discussion about it over in general highlighting the issues with defending them, so I don't have much to add really.

Link?

[fm_08/09]

43 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I disagree with that. Extended can amplify the issue because you will start seeing very similar patterns of movement when it comes to the cross-cum-goal scenario.

FWIW I play on Extended all the time in 16 and was in agreement that crossing stuck out like a sore thumb. There was a good topic discussion about it over in general highlighting the issues with defending them, so I don't have much to add really.

I stopped playing FM16 as it was too painful to watch my team concede from crosses after crosses. I started FM17 with highlight set to KEY and it was crosses all over again. My defenders wouldn't challenge for headers and almost any shoot on target would go in. But since I changed to EXTENDED all changed. 

In KEY mode I used to unbalance my defense by instructing my FBs to attack to create more chances (read it more highlights), which would leave only two CBs and the poor GK to defend. Thus, any cross would connect on the far post. In EXTENDED I have more sense of what is going on and I tweak my tactics accordingly.

 

This is how I ended on Key:

This is Extended:

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I found it again just for you.

 

 

[fm_08/09]

3 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I found it again just for you.

 

 

Thank you. Like I said in my previous post, I stopped playing FM16 because of this bug. So, if you are still playing FM16, I can't say the problem doesn't exist.

[he_man2003]

On 9.12.2015 at 04:54, CityAndColour said:

I think the bigger issue is how the crosses are defended in the box. it gets worse the lower down the leagues you go (at least in England anyway) as the quality of the crosses does not seem to lessen.

May I ask how you cope with this problem? Indeed for me this is the bigger issue --- I have 2 CB in the middle and 1 opponent's striker, but in almost all cases CBs are missing the crosses, opp's striker is left unguarded and can freely head the ball in

[CityAndColour]

16 hours ago, he_man2003 said:

May I ask how you cope with this problem? Indeed for me this is the bigger issue --- I have 2 CB in the middle and 1 opponent's striker, but in almost all cases CBs are missing the crosses, opp's striker is left unguarded and can freely head the ball in

I never really found a solution for FM16 - I just accepted that I would concede goals in this way with my preferred tactics and this was countered by the fact I scored a lot from crosses too.

FM17 I am playing a counter-attacking 4-1-4-1 which provides quite a bit of coverage both on the flanks and in the box. There are still some funny moments with defensive positioning/reactions and 'keepers are hopeless at their near post, but it's not nearly as frustrating this time around.

[Rashidi]

On 09/12/2015 at 04:54, CityAndColour said:

I think the bigger issue is how the crosses are defended in the box. it gets worse the lower down the leagues you go (at least in England anyway) as the quality of the crosses does not seem to lessen.

I am so sorry but there is so much bad information in this thread, I had to step in. You can defend against crosses, and its not worse down the leagues you go. I am playing a 4231 in the conference its my first season, and we are 1000-1 odds on to be relegated.  Lets see I have now played 20 matches in the league this season and have conceded  11. In domestic league matches out of the 9 goals I have conceded in open play..I reckon the other two must be penalties only 2 came from a cross. I have conceded more goals from through balls, yeah 1 more. 

 

The fact is I am playing a 4231, in most cases  I should be conceding a lot, and based on this thread, I should be expecting it. However for the last few years I have been saying the same thing. There is a way for you to defend from crosses, if you can't stop the supply then you got to look at your system. I mean 5 goals all conceded from crosses, that smacks of a bad setup. I'm sorry but I had to step in. There is a solution to preventing the cross its called finding the right duty combinations and using the right players within the right setup. So its a combination of Roles/Duties, Mentality/Shape and Defensive Line, get one wrong and the whole deck of cards comes down on you.  Yes in FM 16 there was an me issue that needed correcting but to say that the same thing is happening in FM17, well i find it even easier now to prevent assists that are crosses.

 

[fmFutbolManager]

If you can't beat 'em, join em. 

[CityAndColour]

14 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I am so sorry but there is so much bad information in this thread, I had to step in. You can defend against crosses, and its not worse down the leagues you go. I am playing a 4231 in the conference its my first season, and we are 1000-1 odds on to be relegated.  Lets see I have now played 20 matches in the league this season and have conceded  11. In domestic league matches out of the 9 goals I have conceded in open play..I reckon the other two must be penalties only 2 came from a cross. I have conceded more goals from through balls, yeah 1 more. 

 

The fact is I am playing a 4231, in most cases  I should be conceding a lot, and based on this thread, I should be expecting it. However for the last few years I have been saying the same thing. There is a way for you to defend from crosses, if you can't stop the supply then you got to look at your system. I mean 5 goals all conceded from crosses, that smacks of a bad setup. I'm sorry but I had to step in. There is a solution to preventing the cross its called finding the right duty combinations and using the right players within the right setup. So its a combination of Roles/Duties, Mentality/Shape and Defensive Line, get one wrong and the whole deck of cards comes down on you.  Yes in FM 16 there was an me issue that needed correcting but to say that the same thing is happening in FM17, well i find it even easier now to prevent assists that are crosses.

 

You've quoted my post from FM16 though.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, CityAndColour said:

You've quoted my post from FM16 though.

Yeah I am sure you were talking about FM16, and I also wanted people to avoid saying the same thing is happening on 17. Apologies for misquoting

 

[noikeee]

19 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I am so sorry but there is so much bad information in this thread, I had to step in. You can defend against crosses, and its not worse down the leagues you go. I am playing a 4231 in the conference its my first season, and we are 1000-1 odds on to be relegated.  Lets see I have now played 20 matches in the league this season and have conceded  11. In domestic league matches out of the 9 goals I have conceded in open play..I reckon the other two must be penalties only 2 came from a cross. I have conceded more goals from through balls, yeah 1 more. 

 

The fact is I am playing a 4231, in most cases  I should be conceding a lot, and based on this thread, I should be expecting it. However for the last few years I have been saying the same thing. There is a way for you to defend from crosses, if you can't stop the supply then you got to look at your system. I mean 5 goals all conceded from crosses, that smacks of a bad setup. I'm sorry but I had to step in. There is a solution to preventing the cross its called finding the right duty combinations and using the right players within the right setup. So its a combination of Roles/Duties, Mentality/Shape and Defensive Line, get one wrong and the whole deck of cards comes down on you.  Yes in FM 16 there was an me issue that needed correcting but to say that the same thing is happening in FM17, well i find it even easier now to prevent assists that are crosses.

I know you chop and change things throughout matches, but I now really want to know what's the base of your 4-2-3-1 setup as that sounds great. Sorry for the OT.

My experience, in the lower leagues too (in FM17), is that I found it relatively easy to shut off the supply of crosses with formations that have wide men, and settings to carefully ensure I'm not pinned back for too long. However I did struggle stopping them when I played a 3-5-2, specially once I got promoted and faced better sides regularly. A 3-5-2 is naturally vulnerable to wing play, but if you cannot stop the supply, it doesn't seem like a very good strategy to sit back, accept the crosses will come, and rely on a trio of CBs to clear them up. Which kind of worked a few FMs back. There's quite a handful of big forwards at this level that can beat most CBs, and CBs at this level just aren't good enough at reading the game very well, so even with a trio of them in the area, forwards can sometimes show up unmarked, or gain position through anticipation, and hit those crosses in. Or maybe I just had a bad experience with unsuitable defenders and unbalanced roles ahead of them.

In FM16 I struggled much more badly to stop the supply of crosses, even with wide midfielders helping out. FM17 is much much better regarding that.

On 14/12/2016 at 19:54, fm_08/09 said:

A potential solution to the problem with crosses is to set the highlights to "Extended".  When highlights is set to "Key" you see the worst of your back line and Gk. It is like you chose to watch those highlights that either involved goals or clear cut chances, That is, when your defenders and GK were beaten. 

I had the same problem until last night. Every other cross was a goal, my defenders were clueless and GK couldn't save two shots in row. My team would control the game with a %60+ of possession and twice the number of shoots but I'd end up losing. I thought the problem was the ME and I even stopped playing FM16 in a hope that FM17 would fix the "bug". However, since I changes to EXTENDED last night, I can see the good efforts my defenders put in to defend crosses. 

Cheers,

"Key" and "extended" don't make any difference whatsoever to what happens in the game, the only difference is that by watching more of the match, you might pay more attention to anything wrong and adapt accordingly.  I mean it's great that you did that and it solved your problem, but you make it sound like it's some huge silver bullet. Many of us already play on "extended" by default.

[Rashidi]

I did a 4231 video on Youtube, far easier to see that and understand then me posting detailed information here/

[noikeee]

41 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I did a 4231 video on Youtube, far easier to see that and understand then me posting detailed information here/

Okay thanks, I'll search for it later.

[fm_08/09]

On 1/10/2017 at 18:45, noikeee said:

"Key" and "extended" don't make any difference whatsoever to what happens in the game, the only difference is that by watching more of the match, you might pay more attention to anything wrong and adapt accordingly.  I mean it's great that you did that and it solved your problem, but you make it sound like it's some huge silver bullet. Many of us already play on "extended" by default.

1-That was my point, by seeing more I was able to adapt. For example, when I wasn't able to create "highlights", I used to set my fullbacks to attack which would create empty spaces behind them and a team with fast wingers would score from a cross to the far post! 

2- When highlights is set to key, you will have a feeling that your goalkeeper and defenders are useless. (I have explained this in a different thread):

 

I started as Pro Vercelli in Italian Serie B; It's my 8th season and I'm currently in the Champions League. I have to mention that I play a 4312 with a variety of players' role&duties. The past couple of seasons I conceded only 40 in 38.

When playing a stronger team, I play with defensive fullbacks. Otherwise, with regular fullbacks. Defensive fullbacks keep their position and if set to tackle harder, opposition will find it harder to make crosses.