An Insight into the 'Modern 433'

[ashlfcowen]

Pre-season is the best time imo

It's really up to you. Your proposed tactic could work just fine, Suarez and Borini wouldn't get in the way of each other, rather Suarez would play just off of Borini (a bit like how Suarez plays just off of Sturridge irl at times). Davies would be left exposed down that side so you'd have to try and shore that up - either make him a support duty or give Lucas Romero (great signing btw) a Defend duty. Or could stick with Attack/Support respectively and just accept as a consequence that you are likely to get targeted down that side.

I've had to go for a drive to Tesco to help my decision. I think I'll sell Coutinho, he has no excuses for games to goals/assist return which the stats below will tell you. Besides, it will allow Sinclair some game time which will do him wonders.

I'll look forward to your next update.

[CamillePunk]

Well my next two matches were a 0-0 draw at stoke in which I controlled possession and was defensively solid but only 1 CCC. Then a 0-1 draw vs Aston Villa at home. Again controlled possession but again few chances created and then finally conceded a corner in the last few minutes of the match. Very frustrating.

[llama3]

@JEinchy - a CF(S) would suit Benteke and the system very well in my opinion.

[nick1408]

I'm having real trouble getting this sort of system to work. At Everton, I have Steven Fletcher as a CF, Mirallas as the AMLa and Knockaeret as the AMRs, Romeu as the anchorman with Baines and Coleman as the full backs. I thought Barkley and McCarthy in midfield would suit this down to the ground but I am having real trouble.

Against ManC I won posession 59/41 and lost 4-0 after being 0-0 at half time and having 11 shots to their 1. I missed a couple of CCC's which hurt.

I'll do a bit more digging and see what I can spot as the errors

[ashlfcowen]

I'm having real trouble getting this sort of system to work. At Everton, I have Steven Fletcher as a CF, Mirallas as the AMLa and Knockaeret as the AMRs, Romeu as the anchorman with Baines and Coleman as the full backs. I thought Barkley and McCarthy in midfield would suit this down to the ground but I am having real trouble.

Against ManC I won posession 59/41 and lost 4-0 after being 0-0 at half time and having 11 shots to their 1. I missed a couple of CCC's which hurt.

I'll do a bit more digging and see what I can spot as the errors

A select few are able to pinpoint potential downfall of tactics just by looking at what set-up you have. Are you able to provide a screenshot of your tactic & team instructions?

[nick1408]

I'm having real trouble getting this sort of system to work. At Everton, I have Steven Fletcher as a CF, Mirallas as the AMLa and Knockaeret as the AMRs, Romeu as the anchorman with Baines and Coleman as the full backs. I thought Barkley and McCarthy in midfield would suit this down to the ground but I am having real trouble.

Against ManC I won posession 59/41 and lost 4-0 after being 0-0 at half time and having 11 shots to their 1. I missed a couple of CCC's which hurt.

I'll do a bit more digging and see what I can spot as the errors

A select few are able to pinpoint potential downfall of tactics just by looking at what set-up you have. Are you able to provide a screenshot of your tactic & team instructions?

Fully appreciate it is a poor request for help. I'll see how this goes...

As seen above I am using a pretty similar tactic to the OP due to my belief that I have similar players that I thought could do the job better. As you can see I've added Higher Tempo but haven't tested it yet. I feel to fix some problems A higher tempo may be required so the players don't get caught on the ball so much.

I've also had another thought (also untested). I feel the players are getting caught in posession too much because they are all looking for a short pass as well as having a global instruction to pass short. To me they are concentrating on short passes too much and missing the open long pass even if it is a low risk pass. Maybe a change to Retain Possession could alleviate this.

Stupid mistakes by players don't help either. A well timed tackle in my last match gifted Swansea the opening goal because they had a player run onto the ball after their player had been dispossessed.

[MeesterCat]

I wonder if some of your problems are due to congestion? Although your mentality is Standard, you have a very high line in conjunction with Hassle Opponents which, if I recall correctly, pushes your players even further forward.

Maybe drop one of the above and remove Shorter Passing?

[JD nawrat]

Baines is better at getting forward than Chambers and Knockaert is too selfish to play a support role well. Give Knockaert Attack, Mirallas Support (he is far more selfless), Chambers support and let Baines romp up and down outside Mirallas.

A higher tempo probably isn't necessary seeing as you are playing Fluid. So either drop Fluid to Balanced or remove Tempo. Even try both. Higher fluidity increases creativity and freedom within your set tactics so essentially if your players are under pressure they can do what they like to get out of that. It can backfire and it is more likely to backfire if you are telling your players to do everything quickly. I dont like messing with tempo so personally I suggest removing the higher tempo setting.

[JD nawrat]

Also if you want your players to play the long open pass if/when available, remove shorter passing. Adding retain possession is just going to make the problem worse for you. Also consider adding a DLP/D instead of Anchor and a BPD is also a good way of finding the counter attacking long ball/exploitation pass

[nick1408]

Baines is better at getting forward than Chambers and Knockaert is too selfish to play a support role well. Give Knockaert Attack, Mirallas Support (he is far more selfless), Chambers support and let Baines romp up and down outside Mirallas.

A higher tempo probably isn't necessary seeing as you are playing Fluid. So either drop Fluid to Balanced or remove Tempo. Even try both. Higher fluidity increases creativity and freedom within your set tactics so essentially if your players are under pressure they can do what they like to get out of that. It can backfire and it is more likely to backfire if you are telling your players to do everything quickly. I dont like messing with tempo so personally I suggest removing the higher tempo setting.

Also if you want your players to play the long open pass if/when available, remove shorter passing. Adding retain possession is just going to make the problem worse for you. Also consider adding a DLP/D instead of Anchor and a BPD is also a good way of finding the counter attacking long ball/exploitation pass

Thanks for that.

I have Chambers in due to Coleman being injured but take your advice aboard.

I started as fluid but found it wasn't giving me enough options going forward - I was not picking out enough 50/50 (or better) pass options so thought letting the players use their brains a bit more would help. I will try dropping back to standard though to see what happens.

I have thought about removing short passing but putting in retain possession to replace it. My feeling is players will still look for more direct passes if players are open as it will retain possession and also stop players refusing to make a long pass if the option is available.

Thanks for that - really appreciate it.

[ashlfcowen]

OK so some changes to my tactic for the third season;

I have moved Sinclair/Borini up front as an Advanced Forward, dropped Suarez/Correa as an Inside Forward (A) and Markovic/Sterling still on the wing, but with a support duty.

Both my two CM's have been replaced, Allen with Romero & Henderson with Kovacic. I have mellowed Davies down a little as a wing back support, and as a result of changing my right winger from attack to support, I have changed Peruzzi from WB to FB (S).

But more importantly, now I feel I have 'defensively more solid' so to speak, I have changed lucas from half-back to defensive midfield. So a few changes for sure, so far-

Verdict - Lucas (DM) changes not gone as hoped, still conceding more than I want too, maybe a result of my D-Line being quite high with the counter strategy and both my CB's having 13 pace? Only just changed my CF to AF so will be interesting to see how that works.

[Double0Seven]

Does your bbm help defensively? Also do you use a sweeper keeper with some good stats? Pace isn't much of an issue from CB if they have good pos/anticipation.

[JD nawrat]

Thanks for that.

I have Chambers in due to Coleman being injured but take your advice aboard.

I started as fluid but found it wasn't giving me enough options going forward - I was not picking out enough 50/50 (or better) pass options so thought letting the players use their brains a bit more would help. I will try dropping back to standard though to see what happens.

I have thought about removing short passing but putting in retain possession to replace it. My feeling is players will still look for more direct passes if players are open as it will retain possession and also stop players refusing to make a long pass if the option is available.

Thanks for that - really appreciate it.

Retain Possession encourages very high percentage passes, in other words the shortest, simplest passes of all. You can't have Direct passes with Retain Possession (literally, you can't, try selecting both shouts). You can set a few players to have Direct passing if you wish with Retain also on but really I wouldn't advise Retain unless you are trying to dominate a game or else kill a game off...

OK so some changes to my tactic for the third season;

I have moved Sinclair/Borini up front as an Advanced Forward, dropped Suarez/Correa as an Inside Forward (A) and Markovic/Sterling still on the wing, but with a support duty.

Both my two CM's have been replaced, Allen with Romero & Henderson with Kovacic. I have mellowed Davies down a little as a wing back support, and as a result of changing my right winger from attack to support, I have changed Peruzzi from WB to FB (S).

But more importantly, now I feel I have 'defensively more solid' so to speak, I have changed lucas from half-back to defensive midfield. So a few changes for sure, so far-

http://tweet2screens.com/images/fm13/fixtures.jpg

Verdict - Lucas (DM) changes not gone as hoped, still conceding more than I want too, maybe a result of my D-Line being quite high with the counter strategy and both my CB's having 13 pace? Only just changed my CF to AF so will be interesting to see how that works.

If the opposition has the pace and the passers to get in behind the massive spaces being left then you're basically just going to have to accept that you will concede plenty this way. You should consider removing Much Higher and just try Higher and see how that goes, maybe slightly more effective defensively, hard to say for sure. Either way, you have quite a few clean sheets on that screenshot and you're winning most games still so minor tweaks will be able to give you exactly what you want I'm sure.

[ashlfcowen]

Does your bbm help defensively? Also do you use a sweeper keeper with some good stats? Pace isn't much of an issue from CB if they have good pos/anticipation.

BBM, you mean my CM(A)?(Don't mean to sound patronising, just not sure if that's who you mean)? Already Kovacic has played 25, he has won 80% of his tackles and averages 4 a game. Who, for someone who has a 12 tackling stat is not too bad, if you ask me. Henderson has played 8 in that position, and has a 78% tackle completion and averages 3.5 a game.

I have Valdes & Ruddy, both who have 10 pace, so not ideal really - I will be looking to splash the cash on a world class keeper in the summer. Sakho 14/16, Indi 16/14 - so not brilliant. Valdes made two huge errors against S'ton, twice his passes were intercepted by the opposition strikers. A result of me asking him to distribute to the keepers and asking the D-line to push up as their strikeforce was slow? Thankfully I outgunned them up top but worrying signs.

JD: My D-Line alters game by game depending on who I'm playing against and the pace they may have to use. I currently don't have anything set in stone via the team instructions. I mentioned in my previous post that I use the counter strategy, that's a lie, I use control.

[JD nawrat]

Finally getting around to playing my save (played one game on Monday, lost, got angry (bs penalty that the FA were silent about when I blasted the ref and a pinball corner) and rage quit) and I can already tell this season is going to require more tactical tweaks than the previous one. Struggled to two wins in our first two league games (the game we lost for the Community Shield v Chelsea 0-2), beating Villa 0-1 and beating Fulham 2-1. Both games heavily favoured us stats-wise but teams were so defensive and hard to break down.

I'll post my tactic (when I'm fully happy with it) that I plan to use for the season at the top of the page soon-ish.

[JEinchy]

I took on board some of the suggestions made and things really improved. I made Benteke a CF (S), added the PI Play More Risky Passes to my IF (A) and DLP (S) and replaced the Retain Possession TI with Pass Into Space and front three just seemed to burst into life. Benteke scored 10 goals in his last 12 games in all comps, and racked up a useful 6 assists. Halilovic, my IF (A), ended the season with 25 goals and must have had an average rating between 8 and 9 for the last couple of months. Sarabia, at IF (S), ended the season strongly, too.

A concequence of these changes is that I no longer have as much control over possession, especially when we face 4-3-3s and 4-2-3-1s. The results have been fantastic, though, so I'm not overly fussed.

So, thank you for the suggestions and advice.

[JD nawrat]

If you want to control possession you can. Just add Retain Possession and Pass Into Space together. Provided you have intelligent players, they'll play passes that retain possession unless there's a great pass for space available then they care less about retaining possession.

I am glad to hear things are working out for you. I'm not even sure who suggested the advice but regardless of who it was, I'm glad people are getting use through this thread in some way or another

I'm trying to upload a highlight of a beautiful goal we scored but it seems that logging into YT via FM is broken so apparently it isn't happening. I'll upload a couple of screenshots to show what happens instead...

[JD nawrat]

Okay, couldn't get the highlight so I've taken multiple screens and broken it down into four screenshots of what's going on, what the team looks like, potential passes, danger areas, etc.

So the left screen here is the beginning of the attack. Gunnarsson has the ball (from a freekick) just inside the opposition half and is passing to AMR, Noone. We are pushed high up like we should be but we're also very congested. The RB has tucked in (causing our backline (represented with the dark blue links) to be in a precarious state. Thankfully Derby (PL team btw) do not look likely to break from the situation. They have plenty of men behind the ball. The red box is the only immediately dangerous area we can attack. The light blue line is the run Rhodes could make whilst the green line is the pass required (unlikely for Noone to thread that anyway). The yellow links are my attacking trio who are all in decent positions. The pink links are my midfielders. They're in a terrible position. So when Noone picks the ball up he passes to Medel who finds Gunnarsson who then plays it into Kiss, which brings us to Screen 2.

As you can see in Screen 2, the pitch is a lot more open now. The channels between RB and RCB, LB and LCB are huge. Noone can attack one of them, Rhodes can attack both, Salvio can attack one too. Salvio's natural position here is also very dangerous. He's got quite a lot of space and someone of his ability is capable of playing in Jordan Rhodes through the wide open channel. Derby have left Salvio wide open, something Jordan Rhodes should be credited for - the two CBs are both very tight on Rhodes and it's creating a lot of space for my inside forwards to tuck inside). Kiss basically has two passing options - into Noone who can then get in on goal or play it out wide to the marauding Trippier at RB; or he can look for Salvio. Again you can see the lines here. The back four is steady-ish - LB, LCB and RCB are where they should be perfectly and if any counters are about to happen we are fine. Gunnarsson (#21) can drop into the space vacated by Trippier if necessary. Our midfield trio is nice and together but not too close, not too spread apart. Kiss has 5 immediate passing options - 25, 17, 21, 9 and 16. To have that many players available to pick up the ball in the opposition's half and at the feet of someone as dangerous as Kiss is a great situation. Derby have very quickly become vulnerable to our attack and our movement has cut them wide open if we can link the passes together...

In Screen 3 you'll see that Salvio tucked inside a little to receive a pass from Kiss. Immediately this resulting in a potential goal... The two red boxes show the danger areas once again - Rhodes can move into the top box to get on the end of a pass from Salvio (green pass line and blue run line) or Salvio can run into the box himself (dark brown line). What he does is plays it directly into Rhodes' feet and then follows the brown run line anyway, setting himself through on goal after Rhodes plays the return pass. Now that Rhodes has made a pass, the front six players (three midfielders, two forwards and striker) have all had some involvement in the play at some stage. The two blue lines for Rhodes and Noone in Screen 4 indicate where they should (and do) follow up to get on the end of a pass or go for a rebound from Salvio's shot (which he chooses instead of passing), indicated by the orange line. The ball settles beautifully in the bottom corner and we take the lead 3-0 (won the game 4-0).

In a swift attack lasting only 30 seconds we've just ripped Derby to pieces with just seven passes (Gunnarsson-Noone-Medel-Gunnarsson-Kiss-Salvio-Rhodes-Salvio shoots). Exactly the type of football we're after. We also kept a clean sheet (our second in four games) which is progress so far

[Torskus77]

I've really enjoyed this thread a lot. I tried something similar in my Walsall save, with some reasonable success, although that was a more stand off and break tactic, but the shape and roles weren't so different. It inspired me to try something with my Liverpool save, only just started it, and was planning on using 4-3-3 anyway.

Played all of the friendlies now, not to sure how much you can take from those. Noticeable problems I have had though, I have Sturridge playing IF (a) on the left side, and he is quite difficult to get in to the game, he doesn't really play how I want him to at the moment. It doesn't help that he has the dreaded shoot from distance ppm, so shoots from almost anywhere, regardless of PI. I really want him to act like another forward, but at the moment despite being instructed to sit narrow, he seems to pick the ball up very wide often.

Coutinho, On the right side IF (s) He has done reasonably well, from what I have read he is quite problematic to get working, players first touch seems to be really bad, which doesn't help him, cos his shouldn't be. Not sure if it's cos my tactic isn't fluid yet. Haven't really got Suarez working as a TQ yet either, I feel although he is good enough to play that role, he has very high work rate, and the TQ doesn't close down at all, so you are wasting some of his work rate. Possibly complete forward may be a better bet. I feel getting the front 3 is vital to getting this tactic to work.

I'm still tweaking here and there, and wont really have a proper idea where I am at until the season kicks off. Again though, really good thread. I signed Noone, for my Walsall side, he wasn't fantastic then, but he was about the best wide player I could attract at the time, he was useful, not useless that's about all I can say :-)

[Mark.]

Okay, couldn't get the highlight so I've taken multiple screens and broken it down into four screenshots of what's going on, what the team looks like, potential passes, danger areas, etc.

So the left screen here is the beginning of the attack. Gunnarsson has the ball (from a freekick) just inside the opposition half and is passing to AMR, Noone. We are pushed high up like we should be but we're also very congested. The RB has tucked in (causing our backline (represented with the dark blue links) to be in a precarious state. Thankfully Derby (PL team btw) do not look likely to break from the situation. They have plenty of men behind the ball. The red box is the only immediately dangerous area we can attack. The light blue line is the run Rhodes could make whilst the green line is the pass required (unlikely for Noone to thread that anyway). The yellow links are my attacking trio who are all in decent positions. The pink links are my midfielders. They're in a terrible position. So when Noone picks the ball up he passes to Medel who finds Gunnarsson who then plays it into Kiss, which brings us to Screen 2.

As you can see in Screen 2, the pitch is a lot more open now. The channels between RB and RCB, LB and LCB are huge. Noone can attack one of them, Rhodes can attack both, Salvio can attack one too. Salvio's natural position here is also very dangerous. He's got quite a lot of space and someone of his ability is capable of playing in Jordan Rhodes through the wide open channel. Derby have left Salvio wide open, something Jordan Rhodes should be credited for - the two CBs are both very tight on Rhodes and it's creating a lot of space for my inside forwards to tuck inside). Kiss basically has two passing options - into Noone who can then get in on goal or play it out wide to the marauding Trippier at RB; or he can look for Salvio. Again you can see the lines here. The back four is steady-ish - LB, LCB and RCB are where they should be perfectly and if any counters are about to happen we are fine. Gunnarsson (#21) can drop into the space vacated by Trippier if necessary. Our midfield trio is nice and together but not too close, not too spread apart. Kiss has 5 immediate passing options - 25, 17, 21, 9 and 16. To have that many players available to pick up the ball in the opposition's half and at the feet of someone as dangerous as Kiss is a great situation. Derby have very quickly become vulnerable to our attack and our movement has cut them wide open if we can link the passes together...

In Screen 3 you'll see that Salvio tucked inside a little to receive a pass from Kiss. Immediately this resulting in a potential goal... The two red boxes show the danger areas once again - Rhodes can move into the top box to get on the end of a pass from Salvio (green pass line and blue run line) or Salvio can run into the box himself (dark brown line). What he does is plays it directly into Rhodes' feet and then follows the brown run line anyway, setting himself through on goal after Rhodes plays the return pass. Now that Rhodes has made a pass, the front six players (three midfielders, two forwards and striker) have all had some involvement in the play at some stage. The two blue lines for Rhodes and Noone in Screen 4 indicate where they should (and do) follow up to get on the end of a pass or go for a rebound from Salvio's shot (which he chooses instead of passing), indicated by the orange line. The ball settles beautifully in the bottom corner and we take the lead 3-0 (won the game 4-0).

In a swift attack lasting only 30 seconds we've just ripped Derby to pieces with just seven passes (Gunnarsson-Noone-Medel-Gunnarsson-Kiss-Salvio-Rhodes-Salvio shoots). Exactly the type of football we're after. We also kept a clean sheet (our second in four games) which is progress so far

Thoroughly enjoyed this post. Really looking forward to your update at the top of the page! (Hint Hint)

[nick1408]

Retain Possession encourages very high percentage passes, in other words the shortest, simplest passes of all. You can't have Direct passes with Retain Possession (literally, you can't, try selecting both shouts). You can set a few players to have Direct passing if you wish with Retain also on but really I wouldn't advise Retain unless you are trying to dominate a game or else kill a game off...

Thanks for the reply.

I see you cannot select direct and retain. It makes sense to me as if you want to retain possession you cannot be looking to pass direct all the time while you can look to pass short all the time. In the same sense, if a player is open 50m down field then the pass is not risky and thus will retain possession if the open player is played to. This is why I feel short passing is limiting the team a bit while retain will play 'smarter' or less risky passes while also looking to attack.

I have no proof that retain gives instructions to pass as short as possible but if it does it probably needs to be explained better in the tooltip

[JD nawrat]

Thoroughly enjoyed this post. Really looking forward to your update at the top of the page! (Hint Hint)

Aha, I will be getting round to it today. I've been busy this week and then ill last night so after I made the post above I just went to bed. I'll be making a sizeable dent into my save this afternoon and I promise you'll see my setup for the season soon

Thanks for the reply.

I see you cannot select direct and retain. It makes sense to me as if you want to retain possession you cannot be looking to pass direct all the time while you can look to pass short all the time. In the same sense, if a player is open 50m down field then the pass is not risky and thus will retain possession if the open player is played to. This is why I feel short passing is limiting the team a bit while retain will play 'smarter' or less risky passes while also looking to attack.

I have no proof that retain gives instructions to pass as short as possible but if it does it probably needs to be explained better in the tooltip

Perhaps I worded it wrongly (in hindsight I definitely did) - it doesn't necessarily set your team to ultra short passing, what it does do is encourage the simplest, easiest passes that are almost guaranteed to be pulled off (usually sideways or backwards passes because there are always open men in those directions). The easiest passes to pull off are also usually very short passes where the man being passed to is not far from the passer.

Passing 50 metres downfield is still a risky pass because those passes are not easy - they are easily overhit or underhit or even simply not accurate enough and go out of play, to the goalkeeper or straight to opposition in some cases. So whilst maybe seeing a wide open area down the left flank and wanting your LB to smash it down into your LW is the plan, it's very easy for him to fail with that sort of pass despite it looking easy.

e: may have to assess my tactical ideas here completely tbh. My tweaks to improve the defence have removed our attacking edge and we're still conceding like crazy atm. Kept only 4 clean sheets in 14 this season and we've lost 4 of our last 5 games (admittedly two are in the CL, one was at OT and one was the South Wales Derby). Bit frustrating at the minute trying to get my defence to stop letting in silly goals. You'd think that bringing in Victor Valdes would make help us win points through his ability alone but he's cost us more points than he's won by some distance. Made far too many silly mistakes for someone of his quality.

[JD nawrat]

Not actually got much to say at the top of this page, the system has changed little. But I have finally updated to show the changes made for the season.

Got 4 'easy' fixtures in the PL in my next 5 and if we can win at least 4 of them it'll be huge signs of progress. Anything less than 10 points will be disappointing. I am finding it much harder this time round. Teams are so much wiser to our attacks, especially with marking up on Rhodes (sometimes doubling up on him).

[Arab]

Went on a blip with my 4-2-3-1 St Etienne team and changed to your tactic. Very successful thanks. Helped me finish runner up in the Ligue 1

[Mark.]

Not actually got much to say at the top of this page, the system has changed little. But I have finally updated to show the changes made for the season.

Got 4 'easy' fixtures in the PL in my next 5 and if we can win at least 4 of them it'll be huge signs of progress. Anything less than 10 points will be disappointing. I am finding it much harder this time round. Teams are so much wiser to our attacks, especially with marking up on Rhodes (sometimes doubling up on him).

Still interesting nonetheless. Frustrating that you can't seem to get fluency, perhaps with a side such as yours in this competitive a league you might be better on just focusing on what you are good at? By the sounds of it you set out this season to improve your defense but it has come at a cost to your attack?

[Torskus77]

Bit of the opposite to your first season with my Liverpool save. Obviously different teams, you would think Liverpool should be able to do better.

Played 10 games, only conceded 3 goals, 2 of which were corners v Chelsea in the same game. Scored 18, but that is a bit deceiving because we scored 6 v Stoke and 4 v West Brom. Few naughty 0-0 draws v teams I should have beaten. Not that I'm not doing well, it just doesn't feel quite right. I am using a BWM, rather than a BBM most of the time, just cos Joe Allen suits that role quite well, but to be fair he has been quite poor. Gerrard got an injury so I decided to re-train Coutinho to CM, to play the AP role. Still not doing great, but he isn't Acomplished yet. Made one signing which was Nicolas Gaitan, cos he became available for £6million. Seems a useful player.

Still not getting the best out of the inside forwards by any means though, Sturridge is an absolute nightmare, worst of all, since his return, Suarez has been dreadful, as a Complete forward (s) mainly, but sometime (a) Tactics are fully fluid now, so I should start to see some better football, but the players still seem to have the worst first touch ever. I use Push up higher, rather than Much higher defensive line, the few times I messed with that, I was getting exposed in behind almost instantly. Can't really grumble about the defence, but really need to get my front 3 working much better.

Second season for you was always going to be hard if you couldn't strengthen, teams know a bit more about your set up, more games with Europe = more injuries, tired players etc etc. Still doing pretty well I think.

[Double0Seven]

It looks like you are going to have a harder season. I've been playing with some of my own tweaks with my Newcastle side. Currently 3rd 3 points behind Man Utd. Difference between the number 1 and 7 is 4 points and the fixture is hard and I can see my side even end up 7th or 8th.

So some observations and questions from me

1. I gave my IF(S) instructions to sit narrower. Is there any reason why you only give your IF(A)to sit narrower?

2. Why did you change to fluid?

3. You seem to have issues with the your BBM or BWM. I was thinking would a CM(S) be more solid? Since we already have an anchor man defending a CM(S) holds his position more and can contribute in the build up faster.

Also wanted to say that I really enjoy reading your thread and keep up the good work.

[JD nawrat]

Thank you To answer your questions:

1. I want the IF/A to act like a second striker whilst I want the IF/S to act like a supporting midfielder but high up the pitch. If the IF/A starts narrow in the first, he's automatically closer to the striker, nearer the goals, more central basically and playing just off of my spearhead. I suppose I could ask the IF/S to do the same but I am worried that it would result in the B2B getting into his way a bit much.

2. I felt like we weren't creative enough going forward. Whittingham was doing well but I wanted more creativity from more players. Fluid increases creative freedom and attacking movement (and defensive too) and it made us more of a threat going forward. I have actually switched to Very Fluid in my recent games and it's paying dividends so far. First five games with it: 1-0, 2-0, 1-2, 3-0, 2-0 - four clean sheets and four victories. It has encouraged my attackers to help more defensively whilst going forwards Rhodes and Salvio seem to be brighter sparks. It's a bit early to say it's definitely working but it is showing positive signs currently.

3. My problem with a CM/S is that he isn't going to be making runs, he's too stationary for my liking. I'm sticking with B2B for now and I'm hoping it'll come good when the whole team does (he's not the only one struggling to perform atm).

[Mark.]

Thank you To answer your questions:

1. I want the IF/A to act like a second striker whilst I want the IF/S to act like a supporting midfielder but high up the pitch. If the IF/A starts narrow in the first, he's automatically closer to the striker, nearer the goals, more central basically and playing just off of my spearhead. I suppose I could ask the IF/S to do the same but I am worried that it would result in the B2B getting into his way a bit much.

2. I felt like we weren't creative enough going forward. Whittingham was doing well but I wanted more creativity from more players. Fluid increases creative freedom and attacking movement (and defensive too) and it made us more of a threat going forward. I have actually switched to Very Fluid in my recent games and it's paying dividends so far. First five games with it: 1-0, 2-0, 1-2, 3-0, 2-0 - four clean sheets and four victories. It has encouraged my attackers to help more defensively whilst going forwards Rhodes and Salvio seem to be brighter sparks. It's a bit early to say it's definitely working but it is showing positive signs currently.

3. My problem with a CM/S is that he isn't going to be making runs, he's too stationary for my liking. I'm sticking with B2B for now and I'm hoping it'll come good when the whole team does (he's not the only one struggling to perform atm).

That is very interesting that Fluid is working so well for you thus far. Makes sense I guess.

I like your reasoning with the IF PIs. Do you find that the AP and IFa are getting quite close or is it fine?

[Double0Seven]

Interesting indeed. Always thought very fluid was for a tactic without much specialist roles.

So I think that might be a solution to my (small) problem

. I wasn't creating enough chances imo. Against weaker sides who park the bus we couldn't get through. How many chances do you create a game? Is it more since you changed to very fluid? What do you think of changing to control? Lots of people play 4-1-2-2-1 with control and I have been doing OK with it. Still switching between that and standard.

EDIT: Wow didn't even notice the person above me who was also wondering the same thing.

Another question: Are you afraid of losing shape since you are push higher up, hassle opponents and play very fluid? And a few players have roam from position. Would you consider play narrower for some more defensive stability?

[JD nawrat]

That is very interesting that Fluid is working so well for you thus far. Makes sense I guess.

I like your reasoning with the IF PIs. Do you find that the AP and IFa are getting quite close or is it fine?

Being in the MC strata the AP/A isn't high enough up the pitch to get in the way of IF/A and vice-versa. They're not miles apart but they're not that close to each other either. Like I say, the IF/A is driving at goal like a secondary striker so there's plenty of space where he was at the beginning of the move.

Interesting indeed. Always thought very fluid was for a tactic without much specialist roles.

So I think that might be a solution to my (small) problem

. I wasn't creating enough chances imo. Against weaker sides who park the bus we couldn't get through. How many chances do you create a game? Is it more since you changed to very fluid? What do you think of changing to control? Lots of people play 4-1-2-2-1 with control and I have been doing OK with it. Still switching between that and standard.

EDIT: Wow didn't even notice the person above me who was also wondering the same thing.

Another question: Are you afraid of losing shape since you are push higher up, hassle opponents and play very fluid? And a few players have roam from position. Would you consider play narrower for some more defensive stability?

There is no set fluidity for number of 'specialist roles'. Specialist roles are just a theory created by wwfan, the entire theory can be deviated from with freedom if you find the right balance. If you have creative and intelligent players, I encourage higher fluidity. So long as players aren't going to make a mess of things with more freedom it should and usually will work.

I create quite a number of chances depending on opposition. On average I'd say we have 12-15 shots with 3-5 CCCs per game. Sometimes though we'll have 5 shots, sometimes we'll have 25, sometimes we won't create a single CCC. Just depends who I'm up against.

I've trialled Play Narrower a few times but I'm not a fan of it because it results in my forwards being too close together at all times, meaning less space for each of them to attack. It will probably yield better defensive stability but it will likely stifle attacking play too. It's one of those situations where the repercussions negatively effect another aspect of play so heavily that it isn't worth doing.

[JD nawrat]

Last five game when I remove my horrible CL run...

Things really looking up for us at the minute. Only one point off of the top two (we're third), joint second best defence in the league (8 conceded, Stoke (4th) have conceded 7).

I said above that I wanted 10 points from our next 5 and I've got 9 with 2 games left to play of that 5

[ashlfcowen]

Awful run in the CL but to be expected with such a thin squad, no? You're killing the league though. In regards to your fullback, obviously with your IF(A) being much higher up the pitch, wouldn't it make sense for your WB(S) to be more attacking than on the opposite side? I have this vision of Bo-Kyung & Trippier smashing in to each other. I ask this as a question.

In 34 appearances, Valdes has made 11 errors, 2 of which have led to a goal. What would you consider to be 'normal'?

[JD nawrat]

Valdes has made 13 errors in 20 appearances on my game, 3 leading directly to goals. A number leading to corners which lead to goals. I consider your record to be fairly normal. That's an error every three games and a direct goal once a blue moon. Mine is making an error more than every second game and a direct goal in more than 1/7th of his games (doesn't sound like a lot but it's a pain).

Making the LB a more attacking role would leave us far too open down the left. The WB/S is an offensive role by nature, they get high up the pitch and into the final third, they just don't get to the byline to play in crosses which I don't need anyway.

The RB gets way up outside the AMR. In my screenshots above you can see a typical example of the positioning of my AMR and RB. In the first one they're a bit close but that's the beginning of the move. In the three after it they're both in extremely healthy positions.

[Mark.]

Valdes has made 13 errors in 20 appearances on my game, 3 leading directly to goals. A number leading to corners which lead to goals. I consider your record to be fairly normal. That's an error every three games and a direct goal once a blue moon. Mine is making an error more than every second game and a direct goal in more than 1/7th of his games (doesn't sound like a lot but it's a pain).

Making the LB a more attacking role would leave us far too open down the left. The WB/S is an offensive role by nature, they get high up the pitch and into the final third, they just don't get to the byline to play in crosses which I don't need anyway.

The RB gets way up outside the AMR. In my screenshots above you can see a typical example of the positioning of my AMR and RB. In the first one they're a bit close but that's the beginning of the move. In the three after it they're both in extremely healthy positions.

Yeah I like the way your Fullbacks and Wide attackers inter-link. Would love some more analysis!

[ashlfcowen]

That's a disgusting amount! Does he have a hidden PPM or attribute that would lead to this? Before he signed for me, I had Mignolet & Reina, both who were quite similar in their mistakes, yet people in the LFC thread were singing their praises, it seems quite inconsistent really.

[Torskus77]

Regarding Corners.

I was going to start a topic all of it's own, but seeing as this thread helped me so much, decided to put this in here, seeing as you specifically mentioned corner problems.

My thinking was, most of the corner goals were ping pong type goals, where the ball was bouncing around the box. This was largely due to the box being over crowded. I decided to reduce the amount of people in the actual box, this in turn leaves you dangerous on the counter (I've scored twice on the counter from corners, and missed several sitters also)

Try and ignore the actual players, I move them depending on ability. I always leave my quickest two up, and my most creative on the edge of the area. This is usually Coutinho on the edge of the area, or Gerrard, with my wingers often the ones left forward. This isn't the case in this picture, but I have been messing with my team line up a lot with injuries.

Say's I have conceded 1 from corners. This is in 18 games. It is actually 2, they were both in the same game v Chelsea. I know the chart doesn't account for ping pong type goals, but I can assure you I haven't conceded any more, and the ping pong machine seems to have almost gone.

Hope it is of some help.

P.S

I believe there is a new patch out now, but this is all before that was released, so I guess this advice could become instantly redundant.

[JOSEPH!]

I have realised I'm not keeping up to date with this thread. Firstly, congratulations on a fantastic first season - a real over achievement.

The pressure will be on to deliver after a season like that and I hope, despite a few bumps so far, you manage to carry your form over from last season.

[Double0Seven]

Sigh, my team failed so hard. Lost agaisnt Hull, Cardiff, Crystal Palace, norwich who were reglating... Now im 8th from being 2th. -.- What the hell!!!! Can I ever get tactics to work... Missed 7 CCC agaisnt Norwich! They got 3 normal chances and scored two!!! Bull**** Im reloadeding the save, can't accept this . What is wrong with this game!

EDIT: Ok second round was frustating too. http://postimg.org/image/rf30u4z1v/8fec3f27/

Even missed a penalty and lost 11 v 10 too! Can somebody explain this? They were reglated, had bad moral, players are not as good as mine. If I won I had champions league football. How can this happen...

[thegooner]

Sigh, my team failed so hard. Lost agaisnt Hull, Cardiff, Crystal Palace, norwich who were reglating... Now im 8th from being 2th. -.- What the hell!!!! Can I ever get tactics to work... Missed 7 CCC agaisnt Norwich! They got 3 normal chances and scored two!!! Bull**** Im reloadeding the save, can't accept this . What is wrong with this game!

EDIT: Ok second round was frustating too. http://postimg.org/image/rf30u4z1v/8fec3f27/

Even missed a penalty and lost 11 v 10 too! Can somebody explain this? They were reglated, had bad moral, players are not as good as mine. If I won I had champions league football. How can this happen...

As the author said this is not a tactic thread, it is about everyone contributing to get a feel for a tactic not about any flaws read the whole thread mate and absorb and understand. You are being very negative explain how you lost, what went wrong? You don't really give much clue as too how you started to lose games? Injuries? Complacency?AI adapted to your tactic?

Best thread on here for ages and loving the fact it has its flaws and keeps me working on were,why and how to change it. I would post images but for some reason am unable any ideas?

[Double0Seven]

@Analog I am an aggressive coach. Assertive pre match against smaller and similar sides(90% of the games since I was 2nd), at 45 min if things are going bad assertive I am not happy and after game same if it went wrong. Always positive green reaction.

@thegooner Yeah I was kinda frustrated. If I can beat Chelsea, Man Utd with beautiful football why do I lose against clubs who are doing very bad and with bad morale. The things that go wrong are

1. Team fails to win vs some smaller clubs.

2. Team fails to score CCC that we get. Even penalties as you saw. We seem to rely on set pieces and mistakes against smaller sides. I mean I don't need to score every CCC but i have quality players and if we miss 4-5 CCC a game I'm not happy.

3. Against similar sides we can't create chances at all suddenly. For example vs Everton. My team is slightly better due to Everton having injuries. Still they dominate us all game and I only got some chances from their mistakes.

4. Only major injury is HBA but I have a good replacer for him who should even do better in front of the goal(14 finishing vs HBA 13)

5. AI suddenly adapts to my tactics at almost the end of the season? That would make my job even easier. AI loses fluidity in their tactic if they suddenly change it.

Im just gonna say that I don't blame it on the tactic. Excellent tactic but just wondering why it isn't working for me once again.

[ashlfcowen]

OK so a little more about my tactic which in my third season that achieved this;

As explained previously in an earlier post; I accepted a £35M bid for Coutinho which meant I had to change my tactic as I had no-one to slot right in to the AP(S) role on the left wing that Coutinho had unfortunately failed at. I could have bid for another more established creator but decided to make use of Borini who had an excellent season up top, and Suarez too - I felt he would be more effective running at the defense, and getting at the end of drilled crosses as his off the ball stat was impressive.

I was left with this formation with the team instructions of;

-Shorter passing, pass in to space, drill crosses, hassle opponents, stay on feet, be more expressive.

Some of the main roles in my team, which I considered to be pivotal;

DMC(D) - Lucas / Fernando. Last year they occupied that defensive space as halfbacks, which worked alright - but I felt like I was wasting their playmaking talents and decided I'd emphasize more on attack more this year as I had the squad and talent available.

CM(A) - Creator, scorer. He would help out in midfield when needed but more importantly break his back trying to get on the end of balls in the box with his runs. I wanted this player to be clever, with decent long range shots, but more importantly I wanted him to have great decision making skills in order to KNOW when to shoot and when to score. Henderson was good at this, but not great so I decided to splash the cash on Kovacic.

W(S) - Beat his man and assist. Scoring, not mandatory - main focus was to beat the man and do something with the ball and offer me width - something that Suarez on the opposite flank as an IF(A) wouldn't do. Sterling was still young and learning, Bruno was decent, but £14M, IMO was a great bid so decided to sell and bring in Markovic.

CF(A) - Do everything you'd expect of a skillful striker.

I wanted my team to be clever with the ball, and I knew they were good enough to out-play most teams regardless of their set-up so went for a control mentality. When it come to opposition I would always play to their weaknesses, i.e. if they had two wingers with poor strength and balance then I would hard tackle, and ensure I was playing them on their worst foot. If they were slow, I'd close them down etc. I was clever with my approach for a change and it reaped awards.

At the end of the season, the top 6 looked like this;

Looking back at my 'specialist' positions,

-Lucas played 40(3) games and had a tackle succession rate of 90%, he averaged 5.6 tackles per game and in a role where I requested he play short, simple passes, he completed 85% of them. He finished the season with an average rating of 7.31. Second fiddle to Lucas I had Fernando, who played 24(7). 84% of his tackles were successful, with an average of 5.85 per game, his passing was just as good as Lucas, with 84% of them reaching their target.

-Kovacic was great but young at 22. He made 26 assists in 50 appearances and scored 8. 73% of his passes only made their target and this is something I will look to rectify, as well as his long-range shots, with only 39% of them hitting the target. Henderson was great, he didn't complain about starting most games on the bench and managed to start 20, coming off the bench 23 times so he still had a big part to play. He completed 82% of his passes, 46% of his shots were on target and in all those appearances, he set up 10 and scored 4. So all in all, the player, whoever it was in this position were certainly doing their job of creating goals - I would however like them to score more so this is something I will work on.

W(S), IF(A) - Markovic played 35 and set up 8. Scored 12. Sterling played 31, set up 7 and scored 7 - Their passing accurancy was around the same at 75-79%. They both successfully dribbled past 9 players a game (average) but Sterling AND Markovic only completed 14% of his crosses - problem. They're not really doing what I want them to do.

CF(A) - Borini & my little godsend Sinclair. Sinclair scored 22 and set up 12 in 34 games, and Borini scored 18 and set up 5. Great - this can continue for as long as they like.

These were the points I dropped in the PL - Watford were a nightmare. I approached both matches with the theory that I would use a counter strategy, which I thought in turn would encourage them to risk a little - but they didn't and I just could not score. The other matches I am not too concerned about, Arsenal, City, Chelsea & United have fantastic squads and the pretty much all of their goals were via set pieces!

So all in all a great season with what can be (with some tweaking) a great tactic.

[JD nawrat]

Most impressive, ash!

Want to know what else is impressive? My defence

7 clean sheets in our last 8 games; 7 wins in our last 8 games

QPR game was just bizarre really. We fell behind to two goals quickly and had to rally back in the second half. We almost lost it at the end but managed to just about hang on to snag the point.

Out of Europe and out of the Capital One Cup (under frustrating circumstances because the schedule insisted us on us playing two games in three days when it was not necessary so we were all knackered) but we have gained top of the league (although Chelsea will regain top spot if they win their game this weekend) and we have the beginning of the defence of our FA Cup to come soon.

[llama3]

JDownie I LOVE that run of clean sheets! It looks very appealing!

[Miravlix]

I would love to hear how some of you guys with star players not performing well is feeling about those players after 14.3 and off course how the things has changed in your experience with 14.3.

I know for my own experience, I'm leaning towards the players being bugged in 14.2 as they suddenly perform way better without any tactics change on my part.

[Sammie B]

Most impressive, ash!

Want to know what else is impressive? My defence

7 clean sheets in our last 8 games; 7 wins in our last 8 games

QPR game was just bizarre really. We fell behind to two goals quickly and had to rally back in the second half. We almost lost it at the end but managed to just about hang on to snag the point.

Out of Europe and out of the Capital One Cup (under frustrating circumstances because the schedule insisted us on us playing two games in three days when it was not necessary so we were all knackered) but we have gained top of the league (although Chelsea will regain top spot if they win their game this weekend) and we have the beginning of the defence of our FA Cup to come soon.

How have you managed to improve your defence? Is it purely the switch to very fluid?

[soccer.joel]

This is a great thread. You're doing exceptionally with the team you have

[JD nawrat]

JDownie I LOVE that run of clean sheets! It looks very appealing!

Thank you. Back on FM11 (iirc) I managed to bag 19 straight clean sheets with Real Madrid... ever since then I've been obsessed with getting clean sheets Makes it even more frustrating that I wasn't getting (m/)any with Cardiff...

The dream is to recreate this one day.

I would love to hear how some of you guys with star players not performing well is feeling about those players after 14.3 and off course how the things has changed in your experience with 14.3.

I know for my own experience, I'm leaning towards the players being bugged in 14.2 as they suddenly perform way better without any tactics change on my part.

I haven't played enough on .3 yet to know for sure but the ME does feel better for the most part.

How have you managed to improve your defence? Is it purely the switch to very fluid?

I think it's a combination of things - my team finally gelling... I changed three of the back four from last season, I changed the goalkeeper and I've been heavily rotating my DM (because I prefer Mariga to Medel but Medel needs gametime because he's also very good). The team is finally gelling I feel and we're pulling off better results. Our attacking play still isn't great but it isn't bad either, we're carving teams open at ease (by and large) but now and again we're missing a few sitters and it's stopping us from romping to victory. Stoke, for example, could and probably should have ended with us scoring 4+ goals. Instead we only snagged one and made it nervy as all hell for ourselves.

I have switched the Anchorman to a Defensive Midfielder/Defend. The roles are very similar so I'm not noticing much change but it is a change I've made. I'm also switching between Very Fluid and Fluid... depending on how I feel, I'm playing one or the other. Usually starting a game with Very Fluid then switching to Fluid if the early stages aren't convincing, but sometimes doing it vice-versa.

[JD nawrat]

Seems like I can't save my game anymore (get crash dumps everytime) so my Cardiff save has come to a grisly demise

[displaced_seagull]

Seems like I can't save my game anymore (get crash dumps everytime) so my Cardiff save has come to a grisly demise

Try 'Save as' and calling it something else. Has worked for me in the past.