Who thinks the AI cheats?

[SCIAG]

AFAIK the joint Championship top scorer is a centre back. All three of his goals have come from corners.

[rinso]

and didnt liverpool score twice in the last 6 minutes to win against middlesbrough yesterday?? with a goal from someone who's scored about 3 in his entire career?

[earmack]

AFAIK the joint Championship top scorer is a centre back. All three of his goals have come from corners.

3 games in....... not the same as a centre back scoring 20+ a season (I've seen users get over 50 goals for a CB using the corner exploit)

Just because someone can pluck a nearly relevant piece of information from real life doesn't mean its ok to have a bug like this in the game.

The A.I doesn't 'cheat' per se because its not a human it has no concept of cheating or not, it just plays the way it does based on a whole bunch of algorithms. None of us can say if the A.I has an unfair advantage (artificial difficulty) or the coding makes A.I team reasonably competitve using the same features the user has access to.

What I do think happens OFTEN/CONSTANTLY is the A.I changing tactics and formation for 5 minutes periods (based on certain variables within the match), to the user it is counter-intuitive and annoying, to the A.I its how to play the game.

Edit: Tangent: With Cherbourg in Ligue 1 I can no longer win with a 4-4-2, I kept getting beaten by teams and got angry so loaded after a 3 game losing streak, I changed to a 4-3-1-2 (not a formation i like because it seems like it shouldn't work) left my AM/D/L in the centre mid position and played a AMR on the right forward position with an arrow into the box (didn't change the personnel that were in the 4-4-2 just the formation, including playing people out of position), changed no personal/team instructions and won all 3 games (before this every game was a struggle using the 4-4-2, after unbeaten in 15). WHY does such a simple and stupid change = WIN. Thats what I don't like so much, my 4-4-2 was solid, the team had been using it succesfully for 2 seasons and bam its not working, then with 10 SECONDS of changes we're unbeatable (even against LYON AWAY). Seems like the only reason I was losing was I used the 4-4-2 for too long and the only reason I started winning was that I changed formation, it makes me feel like 1) I'm slightly irrelevant 2) I still don't have a clue how the game works.

[Frazza Pee]

It doesn't cheat

[My old login got lost]

The game sure can be unfair.

Playing an international game, the game gives an unknown regen the Ukraine job from the start, got to 2010 and no other international managers have been sacked or resigned!

Van Basten is still in the Holland job despite failing to qualify for the WC. I know from experience that the Dutch expect the WC quarters at minimum. Bilic also failed to qualify and what's more both their jobs are STABLE!

Not fair in the slightest. I think I know what the Dutch FA would do if I failed to qualify for South Africa.

[Jakey_q]

dont really think its possible its just simulated

[philly_flyer10]

All games cheat in one way or another, good coding makes it seem like you are competing on the same level.

Driving game-the ai arent using the same physics as you

Sim Shooters-ai can shoot you when you cant even see them

NHL series-you dont let the ai get within 50 feet of your goal so they always score with 60 foot backhanders, the equivalent of a headed goal from the halfway line.

A clear way the ai can cheat in FM-you want to make changes, the ai score, you still cant make changes, the ai makes changes to a more defensive formation, you still cant make changes and then 5 mins later you are allowed.

The AI is clearly playing by different rules to human players.

[tdc5013]

I'm not sure if the AI cheats, because what has happened to me has also happened to the opposition. My main problems with this game are offsides and fouls. Once my player made a good run up to the opposition's area and was ruled offside. Not only that but one of my defenders was ruled offside once, when 2 of my other players, and three of the opposition's, were in front of him. The happens every single match, and happens to the opposition too. In terms of fouls, how many In-Direct free kicks are given in this game, exactly? Every match I'm given at least one that's in my own half. In-direct, in my own half. I find that the opposition never get the same punishments as my players. The referees always seem to be far too lenient with them, and far too strict on me.

[philly_flyer10]

Wrong decisions are built into the game and fans of every single team think the ref is always too hard on them, you can see a game where both sets of fans think he gave the match to the other side. For me, the ref is fine in FM although I cant think of a single time I got a goal due to a wrong decision.

[tdc5013]

Wrong decisions are built into the game and fans of every single team think the ref is always too hard on them, you can see a game where both sets of fans think he gave the match to the other side. For me, the ref is fine in FM although I cant think of a single time I got a goal due to a wrong decision.

You're talking about wrong decisions that are disputed. I'm talking about normal ones. Like one of my players getting booked first time for a body check compared to an opposition player doing the same thing more than once and not even being warned.

[philly_flyer10]

You're talking about wrong decisions that are disputed. I'm talking about normal ones. Like one of my players getting booked first time for a body check compared to an opposition player doing the same thing more than once and not even being warned.

So were you in your 1st post.

[tdc5013]

No I wasn't, I was talking about normal ones. Disputed ones are obviously part of the game, or else they wouldnt be there.

[philly_flyer10]

Just about the whole of your post was talking about wrong offsides.

[blueglobefootball123]

No - it just feels like it sometimes.

WHS - sometimes these freak occurances happen, but when it occurs to our teams we think of it as good tactics and management

[ftg87]

WHS - sometimes these freak occurances happen, but when it occurs to our teams we think of it as good tactics and management

Exactly, I'd put a lot of money on the fact that all these people who are complaining that the AI cheats, are chuffed to bits when they score a winning goal right at the death, they seem to forget that at some point it has probably happened to them too

[tdc5013]

Just about the whole of your post was talking about wrong offsides.

Again, not disputed wrong offsides, but offsides that are genuinely wrong. When a goal is cancelled because of an offside in the game it's a close call. I'm not complaining about that, I think it adds realism. What I'm talking about is the abundance of ridiculous offside calls, undisputed by my team or the opposition, that happen when the player in question is clearly onside. Like I said, it's not just happened to my team, but the oppositions. Rolando Bianchi for Man City was ruled offside with three of my defenders in front of him. Van Persie was ruled off side with two in front of him.

[Heisenberg]

Legion22, haven't you already brought this up in other threads, and debated it to quite some extent?

The game doesn't cheat

[Richie Brill]

I disagree the AI cheats. If this was the case then I would not have won 7 trophies in 1 season and gone unbeaten all season. If the game was supposed to cheat then a team would have stopped it at some point in the season

[auto98uk]

Um, actually you miss my point entirely as well.

Many transfers came in and out. Different set of players tried each season. And with a team like Sporting Gijon, minus and diminishing balance and hardly any transfer budget available, all because of such corners and corners, absolutely nothing else, I dropped down from the top twice.

It happens and happens again. Whenever my team is flowing like Niagara, crosses and corners start coming on. I remember numerous matches where I only saw those deadball situations converted into goals, giving away the match, picking a draw if lucky enough, thanks to the determination level of my team.

And I have tried different tactics long enough in different games but this little "tweak" never ceased to happen.

I got a "Defensive Troubles" thread with no replies in this section where I had asked about what could be done.

Briefly my point is: My team's streak of wins always gets shattered by corner kicks suddenly turning into goals". And having tall defenders with quality heading/jumping abilities don't work at all.

Hate to tell you this, but it is quite obvious - opposition managers have learnt your tactic, and know that you aren't good at defending dead ball situations - thus they use them against you and you concede

[Kriss]

The AI can't cheat, period.

[earmack]

All games cheat in one way or another, good coding makes it seem like you are competing on the same level.

Driving game-the ai arent using the same physics as you

Sim Shooters-ai can shoot you when you cant even see them

NHL series-you dont let the ai get within 50 feet of your goal so they always score with 60 foot backhanders, the equivalent of a headed goal from the halfway line.

A clear way the ai can cheat in FM-you want to make changes, the ai score, you still cant make changes, the ai makes changes to a more defensive formation, you still cant make changes and then 5 mins later you are allowed.

The AI is clearly playing by different rules to human players.

The part about substitutions is extremely valid. In this the A.I clearly has an advantage not possible to the user, ERGO it cheats.

I think most people are aware that any game is just a massive jumble of code to SIMULATE competition for the user but very few games BLATANTLY cheat (Civilization {all Civ games} does and is open about it, its the only way a human can be challenged in a 4X game), what we don't know is if this is true of FM.

All these 'lol FM doesn't cheat its your tactix' replies are getting annoying, did any of these people code the game? Are they SI employees? If the answer is no then they don't KNOW how the game works they are SUPPOSING how it works BUT using DEFINITIVE terms, i.e: being misleading.

[backpackant]

The A.I uses the corner exploit frequently.

In reply to this comment, no it doesn't. I score from corners fairly frequently without the corner cheat -- and I concede far fewer than I score.

In reply to this thread in general: COME ON! Use the search function.

In reply to all those who think yes: it's your tactics. Sorry, but it is. Might not be "real life" tactics but this is a game. A 14 year old kid managing Man U isn't too realistic either. In fact, neither is a 34 year-old with no footballing experience. If winning at this game meant real life football tactics, none of us would be much good at it.

[Bobbins71]

Seems like the only reason I was losing was I used the 4-4-2 for too long and the only reason I started winning was that I changed formation, it makes me feel like 1) I'm slightly irrelevant 2) I still don't have a clue how the game works.

Out of interest, what is your "tactical consistency" on your manager page?

having a high number here isn't good, because as that number goes up, the AI know how you are going to play. They use this number when determining how to play against you. This, allied with the fact that as your team gets more successful the AI will play more defensively, contributes to the "my tactic has been cracked" rubbish that everyone bangs on about. Vary your tactics every few games and you will find you have 3-4 tactics that win you games forever, rather than one that "stops working". That said, if you have enough good players in your team the same tactic can be used home and away for a decade. (I'm in the "it's the quality of players at the end of the day" viewpoint).

and for corners, I leave 4 forward when defending corners. Don't put anyone on the posts. Leaving 4 forward pulls one or two of the AI CBs back to defend so the 'bug' becomes less effective. You'll still conceed some goals of course, but I don't see as many near post flick-ons and I rarely see the AI have a player challenge the keeper.

so, (I hate to say this) the AI doesn't cheat, it's your tactics:)

[philly_flyer10]

All these 'lol FM doesn't cheat its your tactix' replies are getting annoying, did any of these people code the game? Are they SI employees? If the answer is no then they don't KNOW how the game works they are SUPPOSING how it works BUT using DEFINITIVE terms, i.e: being misleading.

SI have said the match engine doesnt know the difference between a human and ai player so it cant cheat. The people that post it just parrot that.

Ive clearly demonstrated the match engine treats humans differently to the ai teams so it must know the difference or it would allow us to make the same changes the ai can make.

[Hamenaglar]

SI have said the match engine doesnt know the difference between a human and ai player so it cant cheat. The people that post it just parrot that.

Ive clearly demonstrated the match engine treats humans differently to the ai teams so it must know the difference or it would allow us to make the same changes the ai can make.

You've clearly demonstrated absolutely nothing.

[Keane7]

How can the AI 'cheat' when the AI doesn't have the mental capacity to think, and therefore make these decisions?

If the AI 'cheated' surely EVERY single game you played would have the same outcome, as the AI would do the same 'cheat' every single time. It doesn't have the mental capacity to decide when and when not to cheat because, and this may shock a few of you, it isn't a living, breathing, thinking being.

The reason my status is still amateur is because i grow too tired of reading this same old crap every day to be bothered to comment usually.

[aston_martin]

Ive clearly demonstrated the match engine treats humans differently to the ai teams so it must know the difference or it would allow us to make the same changes the ai can make.

No you haven't. You made a statement. (whether it is fact or fiction I have no idea, and it doesn't concern me) For it to be a fact it needs to be backed up with proof.

It's like me saying the world is flat and I've clearly demonstrated it because i nearly fell off once. Whether that is fact or fiction is irrelavent(sp), as I have no proof it can not be demonstrated as a fact.

[manc101]

The A.I uses the corner exploit frequently.

Then use it back then your equal.

[r0x0r]

The ironic thing about the corner cheat...

I don't use it. I also haven't suffered from it.

Others use it, then complain that the pc does too.

It seems there's a pattern?

[Gypsum]

My point is how OFTEN it happens. Stuff like this, which is frankly b/s

and then again

Its not my teams concentration stats. It the AI coded to make these things happen un-realistically often. IT plays the "Injury time winner" "Two goals in two minutes" "Instant reply" cards far too often.

It happens more in reality than two occasions a year apart. It is one of those things in football that you are very likely to concede after scoring and late on if you're ahead. That's football.

Unfortunately some people can't accept that bad luck happens in a game. This makes it difficult when people who can contribute a balanced analysis to a game try to point out genuine bugs that need to be fixed.

[philly_flyer10]

You've clearly demonstrated absolutely nothing.

You need some reading comprehension skills, get someone to explain it to you.

[philly_flyer10]

No you haven't. You made a statement. (whether it is fact or fiction I have no idea, and it doesn't concern me) For it to be a fact it needs to be backed up with proof.

It's like me saying the world is flat and I've clearly demonstrated it because i nearly fell off once. Whether that is fact or fiction is irrelavent(sp), as I have no proof it can not be demonstrated as a fact.

It happens all the time, you cant prove anything to me unless Im willing to accept that.

Anyone apart from fanboys who have spent any amount of time will have come across that situation, someone else in this thread has backed me up on it. I have seen it, its fact. I dont give a crap if you havent seen it.

[philly_flyer10]

How can the AI 'cheat' when the AI doesn't have the mental capacity to think, and therefore make these decisions?

If the AI 'cheated' surely EVERY single game you played would have the same outcome, as the AI would do the same 'cheat' every single time. It doesn't have the mental capacity to decide when and when not to cheat because, and this may shock a few of you, it isn't a living, breathing, thinking being.

The reason my status is still amateur is because i grow too tired of reading this same old crap every day to be bothered to comment usually.

Yes it does, I will give you another example in another game, catchup in racing games. If you get too far ahead, the ai will reach impossible speeds to catch up to you to keep the racing close. Of course the opposite is true if you are so bad, they will slow down and wait for you.

[earmack]

The ironic thing about the corner cheat...

I don't use it. I also haven't suffered from it.

Others use it, then complain that the pc does too.

It seems there's a pattern?

I DON'T use it and I AM complaining about it loudest. Theres no positive correlation anywhere but in your head.

@ Bobbins: My tactical consistency was at 14 at the time of my change in formation. It seems ridiculous though that after 2 seaosns the A.I GETS how to beat me but then I make a flippant change and I'm back winning, it hints at a SERIOUS issue with the way the A.I operates. In no way should using the same formation for an extended period of time make is useless and in no way should making a random ill-thought formation change with players playing in the wrong positions make my team opne of the best in the league. I'd say my team was mid-table strength, with the 4-4-2 we were headed for the relegation dogfight, with the 4-3-1-2 we're 4th in February.....

Edit: for clarity: I don't use the EXACT same formation every game, haven't done since FM06, I make some big/small changes depending on who I'm playing, this can range from changing the mentality slider to defensive and increasing the tempo and closing down (when I'm playing big teams away) to slowing the tempo down and increasing creative freedom (when playing smaller teams at home), these are just an example of the team instructions I change, I often make small changes to individual settings aswell (some games I literally do change nothing but I find I can't do this for many games, especially when my team are relative newcomers to a competitive league). I have no issue with needing to alter tactics for different games, I have an issue with a TYPE of formation becoming ineffective when its used 'too much'.

The A.I uses the corner exploit but thats open for the user to use aswell, its not A.I cheating its a bug (still annoying as hell). The substitution situation seems to me to be not a bug but a difference in the way the engine treats player and A.I controlled teams, this would be 'cheating' (although I have said theres no way for an A.I to CHEAT because it can't think, it may be programmed to have an inherent advantage the user doesn't).

[Prank Emperor]

What do I think? No it does not.

But I do think this sort of questions are stupid.

Its more a case of I suck at FM so lets blame it that AI cheats rather than accept the fact that you(pointing no one in particular) suck.

[earmack]

What do I think? No it does not.

But I do think this sort of questions are stupid.

Its more a case of I suck at FM so lets blame it that AI cheats rather than accept the fact that you(pointing no one in particular) suck.

Not so sure thats true, I really think theres too much ambiguity in the game and around how the game does what it does. Most people WILL have success playing an FM game, I have success but I still find the experience (at times) frustrating, confusing and counter-intuitive (of course there are times when the opposite is true). I don't think this thread is about how HARD it is to be successful, I think its about how difficult it is to understand why you're successful/or not (the motivations of people posting is more important than the content of what they've posted) .

[r0x0r]

I DON'T use it and I AM complaining about it loudest. Theres no positive correlation anywhere but in your head.

Everyone else I've spoken to about it has found the same as me. Have you used it in the past? If not, maybe you've just been unlucky, or perhaps your team are so poor at defending corners even non-cheat corners screw you?

[BamaToon]

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: Yes, but because I suck at the game anyway, it doesn't really have to cheat too much.

[Prank Emperor]

Infact I find the game a tad bit easy...I want the game to be a notch higher on the harder side.

[earmack]

Everyone else I've spoken to about it has found the same as me. Have you used it in the past? If not, maybe you've just been unlucky, or perhaps your team are so poor at defending corners even non-cheat corners screw you?

Haven't used it before, I only know about it because of this forum. I have considered the possibilty that I'm just conceeding too many corners and or my team sucks at defending them but I actually now have an excellent defence (heading/jumping wise) and they can't stop the player challenging the keeper from scoring, its either a goal (if kicked to him) or a near miss.

[Legion22]

It happens more in reality than two occasions a year apart. It is one of those things in football that you are very likely to concede after scoring and late on if you're ahead. That's football.

Unfortunately some people can't accept that bad luck happens in a game. This makes it difficult when people who can contribute a balanced analysis to a game try to point out genuine bugs that need to be fixed.

1) They are random screenies, that I had saved to demonstrate a point.

2) Thats why its not in the BUGS forum.

[Legion22]

What do I think? No it does not.

But I do think this sort of questions are stupid.

Its more a case of I suck at FM so lets blame it that AI cheats rather than accept the fact that you(pointing no one in particular) suck.

http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cheatingshit2zq5.jpg

I do not suck at this game, so please stop with the "You are just rubbish" replies.

When you concede two goals in two minutes, the general concensus is that its down to a lack of concentration on your defenders behalf. My back four all have concentration stats over 15, so how does the AI figure this out? Does it reduce your teams concentration levels by "X" amount after a goal is scored?

[Ackter]

FM is not a straight spreadsheet calculation.

There's a lot more things effecting the match than just the visible attributes.

Going 60+ games unbeaten is far more unrealistic than conceding two goals in two minutes, but I don't hear you complaining about that.

[Legion22]

Ad homs aside.

How does the AI calculate how concentration levels are affected?

Do you think I cheated or is there a problem with tactics in the game?

Does this mean that there is a general problem with how the AI goes about getting results? Or is the AI attempting to beat YOU rather than your team?

[Ackter]

No, you've just been very good and very lucky for approx 5500 minutes and now you've been unlucky for two minutes and are angry at the game for 'cheating' you out of an excellent but unrealistic achievement.

[Legion22]

I have not lost that achievment, I remain unbeaten with Chelsea.

How does the AI calculate how concentration levels are affected?

Do you think I cheated or is there a problem with tactics in the game?

Does this mean that there is a general problem with how the AI goes about getting results? Or is the AI attempting to beat YOU rather than your team?

Are the questions, if you want to answer them.

To save further faulty psycho-analysis from people, I personally think that certain features are programmed in and occur too frequently. This, imho gives the appearence of cheating. Things like 2 goals in 2 mins. Last minute only chance winners etc.

[earmack]

@ Legion: The game works in ways we can't (fully) comprehend and its not as simple as 'defenders have high concentration so they don't conceed late goals' especially not for EVERY game.

Even the scu..I mean Arsenal didn't stay unbeaten forever (they were lucky to be unbeaten in 20 let alone nearly 50 games the cheating so and so's) and there was an element of bad luck in the way they lost to the Mancs.

I don't want to venture to far in to the territory of 'this event was scripted to occur to make me lose' but a lot of the things that happen in the engine seem pre-determined (i.e you are all over another team for the first 20 mins but don't score then the opposition have a corner and bam goal), this is probably because if you play the game a lot you see everything the engine is capable of producing and can predict what your about to see based on patterns, it doesn't automatically lend itself to the theory the A.I controlled teams 'cheat' though.

[aston_martin]

It happens all the time, you cant prove anything to me unless Im willing to accept that.

Anyone apart from fanboys who have spent any amount of time will have come across that situation, someone else in this thread has backed me up on it. I have seen it, its fact. I dont give a crap if you havent seen it.

You're the one providing a theory - therefore it's upto you to prove it, not up to me to disprove it.

Come back when you have proof and reasoning instead wild accusations and 'fanboy' insults.

Fwiw, I am not a fanboy - I don't even like FM08, I think it's the mosy buggy, flawed FM that has been released, I just don't like it when people who have a theory that they can't even back and then parade it as if it's set in stone fact.

[Legion22]

It nothing to do with my unbeaten run, Earmack. I only posted that due to the predictable "your rubbish at FM" and "Its your tactics" responses. What I am interested in is how the AI calculates these things and whether it gives itself an advantage.

[earmack]

You're the one providing a theory - therefore it's upto you to prove it, not up to me to disprove it.

Come back when you have proof and reasoning instead wild accusations and 'fanboy' insults.

Fwiw, I am not a fanboy - I don't even like FM08, I think it's the mosy buggy, flawed FM that has been released, I just don't like it when people who have a theory that they can't even back and then parade it as if it's set in stone fact.

Have you played 2008 much (or 07 for that matter)? The A.I teams either get to introduce their subs quicker than the user or KNOW whats going to happen and 'make' the sub 5 minutes before they score so the player can come on just after they score. No way is it a coincidence the A.I teams make subs seconds after they score especially when the user just simply CAN'T do the same. Simple solution from SI would be to make substitutions happen as SOON as the ball goes dead after the user has changed tactics, y'know like real life.........