Tutoring: Professionalism vs Determination

[Jean-Luc]

I have "professional" players in my squad with a fairly low Determination (11-13), and whenever I would team them up for tutoring, there's a pretty high risk that they would bring down the much higher Determination of a younger player. At the same time, they are the best possibility to change the character of a "balanced" or otherwise not outstanding personality into "fairly professional" or better.

Obviously, the best answer to this problem would be:

a) Only let them tutor younger players with a lower Determination

b) Get some people into the squad which have both, high Prof and high Det

But if you have to solve the question here and now, say, you have a player who could benefit from the tutoring and the character's change, but at the same time gets a drop in determination - do you do it?

Is it worth to "plan both", and first let him tutor by a professional player and afterwards by a player with Det 18?

This is certainly not a problem for people who manage their squad for 4-5 years already and have molded their squad into how they want to use them, but I find it a fairly common problem if you are new to a squad and have to work with the material which is there.

[Cleon]

Determination isn't any more important than lets say technique, decisions, work rate and so on. So I'm not sure why people get so hung up about a players determination.

Personality is what counts so I'd always tutor even if it means I see a drop of 8 or more in the determination attribute if it means I give him a better personality type.

I can understand why someone might need a few players in the squad who are determined but it seems that a lot of people on here seem to think determination has some kind of magic power and is a vital attribute. It really isn't and is no more important than any other attribute on the players profile.

Why do you think determination is important?

[Jean-Luc]

Personality is what counts so I'd always tutor even if it means I see a drop of 8 or more in the determination attribute if it means I give him a better personality type.

I can understand why someone might need a few players in the squad who are determined but it seems that a lot of people on here seem to think determination has some kind of magic power and is a vital attribute. It really isn't and is no more important than any other attribute on the players profile.

Why do you think determination is important?

I seemed to have the misconception that determination is also quite closely linked to personality and character development, so that you need a certain level of determination to "want to get better". If I read your text, then I seem to be wrong.

I guess a certain fascination with the determination attribute comes simply from the fact that it's the most obvious and easy to track attribute that changes during a tutoring session. It's just quite appealing to watch the graph skyrocketing, whereas all other attributes go upwards more "organically". Of course, I can imagine that the same happens with the hidden personality graphs. Things is: You can't see them.

Also, I did have the impression that a determined squad is very helpful on the pitch to turn results around or to go for that decisive goal in the last 10 minutes. But again, I might be wrong, following the way you describe it.

[Cleon]

I seemed to have the misconception that determination is also quite closely linked to personality and character development, so that you need a certain level of determination to "want to get better". If I read your text, then I seem to be wrong.

I guess a certain fascination with the determination attribute comes simply from the fact that it's the most obvious and easy to track attribute that changes during a tutoring session. It's just quite appealing to watch the graph skyrocketing, whereas all other attributes go upwards more "organically". Of course, I can imagine that the same happens with the hidden personality graphs. Things is: You can't see them.

Also, I did have the impression that a determined squad is very helpful on the pitch to turn results around or to go for that decisive goal in the last 10 minutes. But again, I might be wrong, following the way you describe it.

Determination has NO part in player development at all. I did explain this in the other thread to you

Just because someone has a high attribute for determination doesn't mean they have the right personality type or is a good player.

It can be useful in some ways but then again it's no more useful than the other attributes. I mean, I'd rather have a squad full of people who have team work, work rate and high decisions rather than high determination. People seem to have put determination on a pedestal and claim it does things that is actually doesn't do. Not sure why, but its one of the most over used myths that surrounds the game

[Shevchenko]

Determination is needed only for specific player roles like Anchor Man or DC. So a Personality can decline if the tutor hasnt a good personality. But does it really matter if the tutee is almost developed? His skills can be very high already.

[llama3]

If i remember rightly SFraser was lauding determination in a thread about his Manchester United team. I may be wrong.

[Cleon]

If i remember rightly SFraser was lauding determination in a thread about his Manchester United team. I may be wrong.

He did yeah, he was the one who started the whole determination = development myth. He wasn't wrong about many things but he was on this occassion

[realtimshady]

He did yeah, he was the one who started the whole determination = development myth. He wasn't wrong about many things but he was on this occassion

Maybe so, but the mistake is consistent with the philosophy of the thread he wrote, namely that it's about football. When a new player hears the word "determination", they don't think "Hm, this is likely a specific on-field attribute relevant to particular roles and duties," they think "If my player has high determination, he'll do what it takes to get better, and improve faster."

In a perfect design, each attribute would convey to the user its meaning with no ambiguity. Passing, for example, is pretty clear. Creativity is more nebulous (especially to football neophytes like me), and determination perhaps the least understood of all. But, there may not be a better description for what the attribute drives in the match engine.

Edit: corrected vocabulary

[Siven]

I have always looked at Determination as being an important stat because it gives a good indication of how willing they are to up their performance when needed, and when my team is losing. They are more determined to fight back, play well and succeed.

From what i understand the best personalities require a fairly high level of determination too.

Then it really only increases through fining someone who played bad and even then it rarely increases, as the grow older it increases rarely again, but the biggest increase can come from tutoring.

Also factor in that just like every other stat the player has, we always want it higher

It may not have any relevance to player development.....but i find it does to player performance. Of course thats only from gameplay experience.

[Cleon]

I have always looked at Determination as being an important stat because it gives a good indication of how willing they are to up their performance when needed, and when my team is losing. They are more determined to fight back, play well and succeed.

From what i understand the best personalities require a fairly high level of determination too.

Then it really only increases through fining someone who played bad and even then it rarely increases, as the grow older it increases rarely again, but the biggest increase can come from tutoring.

Also factor in that just like every other stat the player has, we always want it higher

It may not have any relevance to player development.....but i find it does to player performance. Of course thats only from gameplay experience.

Every time this gets brought up someone uses this argument that it does make a difference to a players performance but so do ALL attributes. As a stand alone attribute like you've described above and not used in proper context it is useless. If he has high determination but low work rate, stamina, decisions and so on then its pointless and won't be utilised. It's like any other attribute and cannot be isolated because it needs the other attributes to make it function. It's no more important than (you can actually say its less important) technique, decisions, work rate, team work etc but I don't see people mentioning those attributes. Yet those I mention dictate what a player does and impacts every single thing a player does. Determination on the other hand doesn't.

All attributes are important but the question was about player development/tutoring where it has no benefits at all. If you are tutoring to give someone a better personality then taking a hit on determination isn't a bad thing.

[Cleon]

Maybe so, but the mistake is consistent with the philosophy of the thread he wrote, namely that it's about football. When a new player hears the word "determination", they don't think "Hm, this is likely a specific on-field attribute relevant to particular roles and duties," they think "If my player has high determination, he'll do what it takes to get better, and improve faster."

In a perfect design, each attribute would convey to the user its meaning with no ambiguity. Passing, for example, is pretty clear. Creativity is more nebulous (especially to football neophytes like me), and determination perhaps the least understood of all. But, there may not be a better description for what the attribute drives in the match engine.

Edit: corrected vocabulary

This is spot on. I think majority of people don't understand what it does and think its more important due to the name 'determination'.

[Jean-Luc]

How could we call it differently then?

Just curious.

[Abaddon879]

Perhaps this cries out for SI to provide a more in-depth description of what the stats control, and what effects they can have. There has never really been much created for new players to the game that explains these things, and as such people have to come up with theories, and these are then repeated and can lead to false truths being spread, such as in this case.

[Cleon]

How could we call it differently then?

Just curious.

I don't think there is a better word to describe it

[Cleon]

Perhaps this cries out for SI to provide a more in-depth description of what the stats control, and what effects they can have. There has never really been much created for new players to the game that explains these things, and as such people have to come up with theories, and these are then repeated and can lead to false truths being spread, such as in this case.

The online manual gives description of what each attribute does and is linked to. And there have been quite a few in depth guides around on here on the attributes.

[max787]

I've used determination as the key stat for youth development for ages, ever since reading SFraser's thread. I've only recently stopped being obsessed with giving everyone a minimum of 16 determination and now try and make all of my youths professional, spirited, or ambitious even if it means a drop in determination.

Those are the three "best" personalities for development, right?

[Cleon]

I've used determination as the key stat for youth development for ages, ever since reading SFraser's thread. I've only recently stopped being obsessed with giving everyone a minimum of 16 determination and now try and make all of my youths professional, spirited, or ambitious even if it means a drop in determination.

Those are the three "best" personalities for development, right?

No because some of those lack professionalism or ambition. A personality type needs both if you are focusing on development and trying to make sure a player can reach his actual PA.

[max787]

No because some of those lack professionalism or ambition. A personality type needs both if you are focusing on development and trying to make sure a player can reach his actual PA.

Ah, you need ​professionalism and ambition? I thought it was just one of them that was needed.

So, the absolute best would be Perfectionist: Pro 18-20, Det 18-20, Amb 18-20, Tem 1-9

An easier one to get is ambitious (amb 16-19) for personality with an evasive media handling style (15-20 pro).

Link for guide in case anyone is interested: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/307808-The-Ultimate-Personality-Media-Handling-Guide

[Draigh]

Every time this gets brought up someone uses this argument that it does make a difference to a players performance but so do ALL attributes. As a stand alone attribute like you've described above and not used in proper context it is useless. If he has high determination but low work rate, stamina, decisions and so on then its pointless and won't be utilised. It's like any other attribute and cannot be isolated because it needs the other attributes to make it function. It's no more important than (you can actually say its less important) technique, decisions, work rate, team work etc but I don't see people mentioning those attributes. Yet those I mention dictate what a player does and impacts every single thing a player does. Determination on the other hand doesn't.

All attributes are important but the question was about player development/tutoring where it has no benefits at all. If you are tutoring to give someone a better personality then taking a hit on determination isn't a bad thing.

In the end I think it's a matter of personal taste. Determination is simply an extra attribute that helps determine a player's performance in a game, while professionalism, ambition and the like are more influential in the long run. I suppose it depends on what you're looking for from players and the game, whether you're focusing on maximising player growth and development, squad building or just concentrating on winning as many matches and (consequently) trophies as possible.

[Cleon]

In the end I think it's a matter of personal taste. Determination is simply an extra attribute that helps determine a player's performance in a game, while professionalism, ambition and the like are more influential in the long run. I suppose it depends on what you're looking for from players and the game, whether you're focusing on maximising player growth and development, squad building or just concentrating on winning as many matches and (consequently) trophies as possible.

It's not an extra attribute at all though, it is purely just a mental attribute like every other mental attribute on the game, it is no different. So I'm confused why people act and treat it differently.

Regardless of which approach you take, determination does exactly the same all the time regardless of play style or what you are trying to achieve.

[Draigh]

It's not an extra attribute at all though, it is purely just a mental attribute like every other mental attribute on the game, it is no different. So I'm confused why people act and treat it differently.

Well, some people value work rate highly on the pitch, or team work, or put lots of faith in pace all over the team. Others like to have good technique from back to front or put their faith in raw strength. Like all attributes it all depends on how we virtual managers build our team - and determination can be something you rate highly, or something which has no extra value to someone else. As always in FM: it depends, and the multitude of opinions players have on this are merely a sign of the complexity of FM and the diversity of ways for the player to be successful - which is definately a defining attribute of Football Manager.

[themadsheep2001]

It's not an extra attribute at all though, it is purely just a mental attribute like every other mental attribute on the game, it is no different. So I'm confused why people act and treat it differently.

Regardless of which approach you take, determination does exactly the same all the time regardless of play style or what you are trying to achieve.

People treat it differently because of widespread misconceptions about how useful it actually is, what it does and how it works; and its been put upon a pedestal as a standalone attribute.

[KevMaaan]

Every time this gets brought up someone uses this argument that it does make a difference to a players performance but so do ALL attributes. As a stand alone attribute like you've described above and not used in proper context it is useless. If he has high determination but low work rate, stamina, decisions and so on then its pointless and won't be utilised. It's like any other attribute and cannot be isolated because it needs the other attributes to make it function. It's no more important than (you can actually say its less important) technique, decisions, work rate, team work etc but I don't see people mentioning those attributes. Yet those I mention dictate what a player does and impacts every single thing a player does. Determination on the other hand doesn't.

All attributes are important but the question was about player development/tutoring where it has no benefits at all. If you are tutoring to give someone a better personality then taking a hit on determination isn't a bad thing.

Im glad you've said this. I reember being told a while ago that the 3 most important stats to a players growth were:

1) Determination, it makes him more determined to succeed.

2) Natural fitness, so he doesnt get tired out at training.

3) Work rate, so he works hard in training.

So, i had always looked for these attributes as well as the correct personality, but since reading this ive realised tis complete bullplop.

"Players with a high determination are less likely to react badly to going a goal down" is what it says in the game, and i will now take this as its only use, however, when i go to select my captain, the TC shows me both influence and determination. Should your captain also be determined to spur on the players, or is that irrelevant?

[rich_barnes]

Because ambition and professionalism are hidden attributes (still not sure why the game has to hide them) people tend to use determination to judge if a player has good pro and ambition ratings. Determination does not effect training, but players who have high determination also tend to have high professionalism and ambition, not always but very often, so a players determination is a good benchmark when trying to figure out other stats. I think that is what SFraser got confused with.

[Jean-Luc]

No because some of those lack professionalism or ambition. A personality type needs both if you are focusing on development and trying to make sure a player can reach his actual PA.

Cleon, do you have any insight on how to push those two at the same time?

According to the list in you Ajax thread, what we know is this:

Professional Pro 18-19, Tem 10-20

Amibitous Amb 16-19, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17

So, say, you have a "professional" player with Pro 18 and unknown Ambition; let's say Amb is 10

Then you have an "ambitious" player with Amb 18 and unknown Pro, let's say it's also 10.

Don't they cancel each other out, if I set them to tutor a young player?

Say the player has Pro 13 and Amb 13.

He gets tutored by the professional player... do we know what exactly happens? Does he get +2 Pro and loose -2 Amb?

Then he gets tutored by the ambitious player and gets +2 Amb and -2 Pro?

Of course it could also be that he gets +3 Pro and -1 Amb, but do we know anything certain about this?

[Jean-Luc]

but players who have high determination also tend to have high professionalism and ambition, not always but very often,

But is that really true or is it maybe not also a false connection?

We think that determination must go together with those two, but according to the lists on which people figured out how the character names are defined, nothing points in that direction ("ambitious" means Det 1-17, which actually means basically anything).

I have seen people with high pace and low acceleration or vice versa. Or high technique and bad dribbling. All those attributes seem to be completely independent from each other. There is a slight tendency to some connections (indeed I would say players with high free kicks tend to have high corner attributes as well), but is there any evidence or is this a self-fulfilling myth?

[Proteus]

Interesting thread. Does the Determination attribute have any bearing on a player's development (i.e. on that player's ability to reach their Potential Ability rating), or are the hidden attributes like professionalism and ambition the main determinants of the Current and Potential abilities system?

In future editions of FM perhaps the inclusion of sports psychologists would be helpful in order to make previously hidden data available to managers, which would in turn aid them in making transfer and squad management decisions.

If you're managing a large club that employs psychologists, for example, perhaps it'd be possible for them to add their thoughts on the player's personality and suitability to the club and the culture and location it's based in via a scouts report, among other things. That way a manager could get an informed opinion on the player's previously hidden data such as adaptability and how they cope under pressure.

A similar approach could be taken re. injury proneness. Again, I don't see why a club doctor couldn't add his comments to a scout report and inform the manager of the player's past injury record or, for instance, an individual player's susceptibility to, say, hamstring injuries.

[Cleon]

Im glad you've said this. I reember being told a while ago that the 3 most important stats to a players growth were:

1) Determination, it makes him more determined to succeed.

2) Natural fitness, so he doesnt get tired out at training.

3) Work rate, so he works hard in training.

So, i had always looked for these attributes as well as the correct personality, but since reading this ive realised tis complete bullplop.

"Players with a high determination are less likely to react badly to going a goal down" is what it says in the game, and i will now take this as its only use, however, when i go to select my captain, the TC shows me both influence and determination. Should your captain also be determined to spur on the players, or is that irrelevant?

I've never seen anyone say it was those 3 attributes before. But whoever told you that deserves to be banned from here

It is a decent attribute to have for the captain when going a goal down etc because he is the leader on the pitch.

[Cleon]

Because ambition and professionalism are hidden attributes (still not sure why the game has to hide them) people tend to use determination to judge if a player has good pro and ambition ratings. Determination does not effect training, but players who have high determination also tend to have high professionalism and ambition, not always but very often, so a players determination is a good benchmark when trying to figure out other stats. I think that is what SFraser got confused with.

I don't think it is a good benchmark at all. There are plenty of personality types that are not dependent on determination. The media handling is far more important when judging a player.

[Cleon]

Cleon, do you have any insight on how to push those two at the same time?

According to the list in you Ajax thread, what we know is this:

Professional Pro 18-19, Tem 10-20

Amibitous Amb 16-19, Loy 1-9, Det 1-17

So, say, you have a "professional" player with Pro 18 and unknown Ambition; let's say Amb is 10

Then you have an "ambitious" player with Amb 18 and unknown Pro, let's say it's also 10.

Don't they cancel each other out, if I set them to tutor a young player?

Say the player has Pro 13 and Amb 13.

He gets tutored by the professional player... do we know what exactly happens? Does he get +2 Pro and loose -2 Amb?

Then he gets tutored by the ambitious player and gets +2 Amb and -2 Pro?

Of course it could also be that he gets +3 Pro and -1 Amb, but do we know anything certain about this?

He takes on the personality type of the tutor. So in your example the ambitious player would become a lot more professional if it was successful and his ambition might drop but it might not too. But either way, he'd come out of the tutoring session with a better personality and his ambition would still be greater than the tutors, it wouldn't drop as low as his if it did change.

If you read the thread in post 18 that also explains about the media handling, so when picking a tutor you know which other hidden personality traits he has.

[Cleon]

Interesting thread. Does the Determination attribute have any bearing on a player's development (i.e. on that player's ability to reach their Potential Ability rating), or are the hidden attributes like professionalism and ambition the main determinants of the Current and Potential abilities system?

I've answered this loads in the thread and made it very clear that determination is nothing to do with a players development at all. It is an on the field attribute only.

[Jean-Luc]

If you read the thread in post 18 that also explains about the media handling, so when picking a tutor you know which other hidden personality traits he has.

I thought that thread was similar to your list of Personality.

Wow, that's a real gem! Nice.

[rich_barnes]

But is that really true or is it maybe not also a false connection?

We think that determination must go together with those two, but according to the lists on which people figured out how the character names are defined, nothing points in that direction ("ambitious" means Det 1-17, which actually means basically anything).

I have seen people with high pace and low acceleration or vice versa. Or high technique and bad dribbling. All those attributes seem to be completely independent from each other. There is a slight tendency to some connections (indeed I would say players with high free kicks tend to have high corner attributes as well), but is there any evidence or is this a self-fulfilling myth?

In some ways it is true, if a player is determined to succeed on the field then you would expect him to be pretty determined to succeed off it aswell, players like Steven Gerrard spring to mind, but then you also have players like Lee Cattermole who is anything but professional! But he is very determined when he gets on the pitch. Like Cleon says though, these days in FM it is better to just look at their media handling or personality in their profile, although this is hard to search for in the player search when looking for a good tutor. I would still stay clear of players with very low determination though, because they are not likely to be very ambitious.

[Master420]

I feel professionalism is a bit over-rated. Professionalism might get you better attribute, in many cases just quicker. I feel pressure is more important as it prevents your team from wilting after your opponents get few successive attacks.

[Cleon]

I feel professionalism is a bit over-rated. Professionalism might get you better attribute, in many cases just quicker. I feel pressure is more important as it prevents your team from wilting after your opponents get few successive attacks.

Pressure is more media related than actual having a bearing on how well they handle been attacked. It's more about what happens before a game rather than what happens in a game. Although it can make him nervous for the upcoming game but this isn't anything to do with the scenario you posted above. It's how well can handle opposition managers talking about him etc. If you are challenging for the title it's how well he can handle that etc. So it would only have minimalist effect on the match engine as everything would have been determined before hand. So several attacks in the game wouldn't impact this as that is down to his other mental attributes.

How can professionalism be overrated? Without it you have players who don't develop, players who dislike been disciplined, have more arguments in talks, doesn't try. Pro players tend to have longer careers on FM as they apply themselves to everything the best they can which means in the later years of a career they still train as hard as when they were 17 and so on.

[Master420]

Isn't that Controversy?

And I think you misunderstood what I meant by over-rated. I didn't mean its useless. I meant there are many people out there who believe not having a professional personality is the end of the world for youngsters. There are many other hidden attributes like consistency and injury proneness which I believe are more important.

[Cleon]

Isn't that Controversy?

No. Controversy determines what he is likely to say in the media not how well he handles it. There is a difference

It's how likely he is to be outspoken and possibly criticise his own manager via the media etc.

And I think you misunderstood what I meant by over-rated. I didn't mean its useless. I meant there are many people out there who believe not having a professional personality is the end of the world for youngsters. There are many other hidden attributes like consistency and injury proneness which I believe are more important.

I didn't miss understand you at all, you said it was overrated. Not sure how I can misunderstand something like that when you didn't expand on it...

Anyways, professionalism is vital for youth players if you want them to develop or reach their potential. This is different to having a professional personality as that still lacks the other hidden attribute needed. If they don't have the right type of personality then it really can be the end of the world for the youngster as he will never become good despite his potential.

You can believe the other hidden attributes are important but if you want a player to get close to reaching his potential or developing into a great player then you'd be wrong in what you say.

[sjm]

Low professionalism is definitely very bad for a player's development. I have a player who is obviously not very professional - you can see it in how he responds to being talked to etc. I'm going to guess that it's around 3-4. He's relatively determined and I think he's ambitious too. On the pitch he often plays decently. His ratings are OK, although he doesn't set the world on fire. The problem is that he's been at the club since he was 18 and he's hardly improved at all. I've told him he'll get listed if he doesn't train harder etc. and all that happens is he puts in a bit of effort for a month or two. Then it's back to same old, same old. I'd have tutored him if I had had the players to do so, but unfortunately I didn't.

It's a real pity, because I'm pretty sure is PA is 150+. But he's 24 or so now, and he's never going to be a star. He's got attributes that mean he's OK and he still could have a great career in the CH or at a lesser PL team. But at 24, I've given up hope that he's ever going to get close to fulfilling his potential. When his contract is over, so will his career at my club.

My overall feeling is that professionalism is important, but not enough that you want to be completely fixated on it to the detriment of everything else. But low professionalism is to be avoided at all costs, because it seems to be a career killer. I have players who I assume are somewhat professional but not overly so, and they've done fine in terms of development. So it's not like everyone needs 20 in professionalism or something.

[NoChance]

I've never seen anyone say it was those 3 attributes before. But whoever told you that deserves to be banned from here

It is a decent attribute to have for the captain when going a goal down etc because he is the leader on the pitch.

I can do a bit of FM Archaeology for you here: it was a very common rumour - became a factoid, if you will - in the dearly-departed FML that those three attributes were key. But player development was sufficiently misunderstood by the FML community that it eventually led to this post from SI's Rob Cooper: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/118559-5-star-potential-youth-tons-of-red-arrows?p=3101930&viewfull=1#post3101930

I'm pretty sure that the info in that post no longer applies to FM, if it ever did, but just thought I'd include it here for the curious. In particular, the emphasis on match ratings seems to be much smaller in the current FM than in FML.