Zenit signing black players

[glennuk]

I can see where people are coming from re: Athletic.

But for me i have always seen it this way

Athletic are only allowing a certain type of people to promote players from the basque region

Zenit are only NOT allowing a certain type of people to put down players from a certain ethnicity.

I am not saying athletic are right exactly, im just saying thats the way i see.

One seems to be discriminating the other promoting.

But hey thats just my views.....waiting to get slated

[SCIAG]

It's ALL about he's not Basque.

It isn't quite. He either needs Basque heritage, or have signed for a Basque club before a certain age and lived in the Basque region, or be Spanish and signed for a Basque club before another certain age. It isn't to do with their race alone. In that respect, it's much like the UEFA home grown rules, which distinguish between individuals on residence, not nationality.

I think Zenit are right not to sign any black players, given the circumstances. Given the experiences of Odemwingie, Bikey and Owusu-Abeyie in Moscow, Russian clubs signing black players makes them targets, and potentially endangers their lives. It is irresponsible of the clubs to put their players's lives at risk unnecessarily. The black players there haven't changed attitudes yet, and probably won't until there are major cultural changes. Russia also doesn't have the cultural links with Africa that England, Italy, Portugal and France do, so the issue doesn't need to be confronted as pressingly as it did in those countries.

Ideally, of course, it wouldn't matter, but meanwhile, I think Zenit are right to avoid signing blacks if they are sure locals would threaten them.

On another note: if this thread goes back up the route it was going before (people making comparisons to Hitler etc.), I'll have to lock it. Try and avoid that

[megafan2005]

Completely different situation with Zenit and Athletic Bilbao.

I can't even believe some of the people who have posted in this threads opinions.

Nobody can force Zenit to sign black players, they can argue that they always had better options. However UEFA (Not FIFA unless some of you dont want Zenit at the world cup) can ban them from taking part in European competitions plus they and the Russian FA can force them to play behind closed doors if the fans are openly racist towards other players in opposing teams. SI should not have to implement this however its pure and simple racism.

[Jibby123]

I think Zenit are right not to sign any black players, given the circumstances. Given the experiences of Odemwingie, Bikey and Owusu-Abeyie in Moscow, Russian clubs signing black players makes them targets, and potentially endangers their lives. It is irresponsible of the clubs to put their players's lives at risk unnecessarily. The black players there haven't changed attitudes yet, and probably won't until there are major cultural changes. Russia also doesn't have the cultural links with Africa that England, Italy, Portugal and France do, so the issue doesn't need to be confronted as pressingly as it did in those countries.

Ideally, of course, it wouldn't matter, but meanwhile, I think Zenit are right to avoid signing blacks if they are sure locals would threaten them.

And that's a point I'd not considered. It doesn't make it right, but more a reality??

It's extremely difficult for the club to win either way.

To ban Zenit from UEFA for racism of their fans, would anyone endorse banning Celtic/Rangers for their minority, but noticable sectarianism in their fan base?? It's got so bad some nutjob sends one of the manager a bomb now.

[Brian Shanahan]

RBKalle I have the perfect illustration of the difference between Bilbao and Zenit; schools!

Look at it this way Bilbao are a school who have decided to run a (fairly) strict catchment area, they decided that only people from a certain area could attend, subsequently widened to those who could prove ancestral attachment to the area. The colour of their skin, the language the speak or the way they pray (or not) has no bearing on this decision, just the address given for them on their birth-certs.

Zenit on the other hand are running a segregation prorgramme, they are saying "your skin is too dark, you cannot enroll".

As you can see there is a huge difference between the two, one being a restriction on scouting policy based on geography (and more recently history), the other being a blanket ban on all persons because of their race. And I don't believe for a second that Zenit's policy is forced upon them by the fans alone, I'm perfectly sure that the club directors are of the same vile mentality as the banana throwers, otherwise they would have signed black players before now.

@Jibby, I would consider banning either Celtic or Rangers (or both) if the situation required it. I think the biggest thing you have to consider is whether the club in question are making concrete efforts to stamp out the bad behaviour, and I'm convinced that both Celtic and Rangers are (maybe it's not enough, and atm it's not very effective) but it sure as hell is a fact that Zenit are doing sweet fanny adams to curb the racisim associated and within the club.

[ATW]

Incidentally, i've always found it odd that a club as nationalistic as Bilbao have an English name (Athletic instead of Atletico). I understand they were founded by an Englishman which is why, but it shows they can't be totally opposed to anything non-basque.

Why would they have a Castilian name?

[Nik_Dut]

because FM is not racist and will not in anyway support any kind of racist action like that.

Zenit fans should be locked away for being disgusting people.

I am ashamed as a football fans as I only just realized how racist a small group of Zenit's fans are.

Still, FM shouldn't implemented that attitude in the game. Hope that this situation can change for better soon.

No need to said to harsh since most caucasian's countries back then are practising racism. perhaps st petersburg just need longer.

regarding Bilbao, I think it will be sweet if after some years the club decide to abolidh the non basque policy in game and we have news mentioning that.

Football without boundaries.

[RBKalle]

RBKalle I have the perfect illustration of the difference between Bilbao and Zenit; schools!

Look at it this way Bilbao are a school who have decided to run a (fairly) strict catchment area, they decided that only people from a certain area could attend, subsequently widened to those who could prove ancestral attachment to the area. The colour of their skin, the language the speak or the way they pray (or not) has no bearing on this decision, just the address given for them on their birth-certs.

Zenit on the other hand are running a segregation prorgramme, they are saying "your skin is too dark, you cannot enroll".

As you can see there is a huge difference between the two, one being a restriction on scouting policy based on geography (and more recently history), the other being a blanket ban on all persons because of their race.

I still don't see a huge difference besides the fact "skin racism" is the most common form of racism.

One school say "sorry, you can't study here because you're born/you live 20 miles too north/south/west/east"

The other say "sorry, you can't study here because your skin's too dark/you believe in the wrong God"

How is this different again?

For the umpteenth time... just because the reason for "selection" is less offensive or is apparently enforced for "noble reasons" it doesn't change the fact it's discriminatory.

The Home-Grown policy is enforced globally by UEFA, and it's just a way to MODERATELY preserve the "local" identity of a club... but a 17yo Nigerian guy can become "Home-Grown" for any European club. And then can move freely to any club. But two...

Zenit and Athletic

[Koki]

The difference: Zenit excludes players for a reason they can't do anything about and Bilbao has criterias that every (young) player can meet.

[Saint_Lane]

How is this different again?

On your basis of discussion, do you suggest then that the national team is discriminatory because the English NT only play English players.

Of course not. It's rules. Such as Bilbao have rules over Basque players. Which is no more discriminatory than saying your French, you cant play for England.

In times gone by, it would have been unheard of to have seen a lad from manchester playing outside of manchester and to see a lad from Hampshire not playing for a Hants based team. Do not make 'technology' and ease of travel an excuse for having to open your doors to everyone.

It is their God given right to say "We want to encourage the development and profile of Basque players, so we will therefore only field players of Basque identity"

Do not suggest that this is discriminatory. Dont you think that if it was, the powers that be would have stopped it. If it really was 'racist' or 'discrimination' then the legal authorities, under law, would have to stop it. They haven't.

Use yer noggin'

[Sad Git]

It took years and years before Everton signed a black player. Don't remember them getting banned.

[RBKalle]

On your basis of discussion, do you suggest then that the national team is discriminatory because the English NT only play English players.

Of course not. It's rules. Such as Bilbao have rules over Basque players. Which is no more discriminatory than saying your French, you cant play for England.

Apples and oranges...

National teams are what they are: selection of players representing a Nation.

A football club has no such limitations, except those enforced by the FA or by international boards (which are THE SAME for all clubs)

It is their God given right to say "We want to encourage the development and profile of Basque players, so we will therefore only field players of Basque identity"

Fine, so if Zenit suddenly decide to sugarcoat their buckling under the "fans'" racist attitude by officially declaring "we want to encourage the development and the profile of Slavic players, so we will therefore only field players from said area", would that be sort of fine?

Do not suggest that this is discriminatory. Dont you think that if it was, the powers that be would have stopped it. If it really was 'racist' or 'discrimination' then the legal authorities, under law, would have to stop it. They haven't.

They haven't done a thing because the Basque issue is a delicate one and it expands itself way beyond football...

FA or UEFA can't really force Athletic to sign foreigners (and let's not forget Spaniards are regarded as foreigners too...) because a club can more or less sign (or not sign) whoever they want... They're even more powerless because of the political implications the whole 'Euskal Herria' concept implies.

Athletic have recently loosened the "Basque-only" policy up a bit, just enough to give themselves a slightly broader talent pool, but they still operate in a very grey area, where the "it's our policy" thing can't officially be labeled as discriminatory, but it's not far from actually being so.

To me it's pretty clear there is a deeper political meaning to the Athletic's policy, but they can get away with it because it's "romantic" and it'd be dangerous meddling with it.

Just imagine the same thing happening in Northern Ireland or in RoI with equally exclusiveness...

Would that break official rules? No

Would that cause problems? You betcha!

Would that be discriminatory? Of course.

Is it as bad as the "no blacks" thing? Surely not, but once again, just because crap tastes worst, it doesn't mean mud isn't disgusting

[milnerpoint]

And that's a point I'd not considered. It doesn't make it right, but more a reality??

It's extremely difficult for the club to win either way.

To ban Zenit from UEFA for racism of their fans, would anyone endorse banning Celtic/Rangers for their minority, but noticable sectarianism in their fan base?? It's got so bad some nutjob sends one of the manager a bomb now.

Absolutely if they cannot sort out the problems they are having both should be banned. They have gotten away with the bile both clubs spew out for years and years without any serious action. Whilst both clubs appear to be trying to sort this problem if current things carry on as they have been i think both clubs should be suspended until these idiots realise the harm they are causing. It will never happen but i think authorities need to take a very hard line with this kind of stuff, it has no place in the world, never mind football.

[Sheva Elite]

SI should program every Black player so they have Zenith as 100% disliked.

That way none of them would ever join anyway. Cheeky way of getting around it.

[Jibby123]

Milnerpoint, definitely spot on.

I wonder how many at Rangers/Celtic laugh off the sectarianism and only pay lip service to tackling it, and even (admittedly extreme small number) a couple of low key players being numpty enough to go public on facebook/twitter with their caveman thinking. It's so engrained that something drastic is needed. When somebody is posted a bomb it's gone way, way too far already.

Abandoning the game as soon as sectarian (or racist) behaviour is heard seems extreme and ruins a day out for the majority that don't indulge, but that might make the minority feel a wrath of the majority of true fans who are disgusted, even if it is only because their day out has gone down the swanny.

Thing is, I wonder how much a minority these people are at Celtic/Rangers/Zenit to name only 3.

Football rivalries and 'hate' are intense and it makes the game what it is, but keeping it to football solely is the least anyone can do. When it spills over the football becomes something else.

I followed England aways throughout the 90's and saw a real sea of change in the idiots being alienated by 'normal' England fans and it seemed to work.

[FrazT]

This is not the place for discussing the politics of football- go to the Football forum for that

[Nik_Dut]

about athletic and zenit, at least athletic club and fans alike didn't express their hatred towards the non-basque as some zenit fans does towards colored.

iirc, one or both glasgow team preferred certain christian religion players only.

[Brian Shanahan]

I still don't see a huge difference besides the fact "skin racism" is the most common form of racism.

One school say "sorry, you can't study here because you're born/you live 20 miles too north/south/west/east"

The other say "sorry, you can't study here because your skin's too dark/you believe in the wrong God"

How is this different again?

For the umpteenth time... just because the reason for "selection" is less offensive or is apparently enforced for "noble reasons" it doesn't change the fact it's discriminatory.

The Home-Grown policy is enforced globally by UEFA, and it's just a way to MODERATELY preserve the "local" identity of a club... but a 17yo Nigerian guy can become "Home-Grown" for any European club. And then can move freely to any club. But two...

Zenit and Athletic

Fine then by your logic, any player can play for any national team they want, even if they have no connection with that country, because geograophical limitations are discriminatory on racial grounds.

And don't give me any bull about "that's not what I'm arguing" because that is exactly what you're arguing.

[seanydude]

about athletic and zenit, at least athletic club and fans alike didn't express their hatred towards the non-basque as some zenit fans does towards colored.

iirc, one or both glasgow team preferred certain christian religion players only.

Just one .

[FrazT]

See post 116