AI Experiment - what would happen if?

[leonavich]

Omari-Kinch for me

by the way.. how is Forde doing since leaving the bandits?

[MaccaB]

kipfizh,

May I be the 3,551st person to say this is a great thread and KUTGW, this is my first contribution, but I've been following it for months.

Cult hero for me would be Said Dompig.

He has a silly name, plays where-ever he is needed and always does a great job, joined 6 years ago with a maxed out PA and has never dropped.

[FlownCanary]

Yo, Kip where are you dude? Need my Bandits fix! LOL Come back soon!

[OrientMartin]

I'm getting withdrawal symptoms, I need my bandits fix too.

[kipfizh]

The Bandits 50 Year Review

We’ve had half a century of ups and downs with the Bandits now, and it is time to look back over the experiment as a whole, coming up with the answers to the original questions, plus planning for the FM09 edition. This particular experiment will continue, but with the original starlets now gone from the game, and with the financial muscle of the Bandits the only clue that this isn’t the original database, it seems a good time to reflect.

So without further ado, let’s look at those original questions…..

[kipfizh]

The club

Would the club, in financial security, keep hold of the players for at least a couple of seasons, having unparalleled success?

The original Bandits were all gone within two seasons, but they on average stayed for eighteen months, by which time the two idiots were on to their second clubs. Their loyalty is unquestioned, but the call came from many divisions above, and the Bandits were unable to hold on.

FM09 changes – the maximum loyalty has already been attained in the database. Their reputation was low, and without giving the Bandits a high reputation, they will not stay. No changes.

Would these starlets give them a successful cup run or two?

An early FA Trophy victory was impressive, but there was no glorious FA Cup run in the first couple of seasons. However, there may well have been had all matches been played on full detail – the players were restricted to small wins in those opening two seasons, and on full detail the story is very different, as they would smash whoever got in their way.

FM09 changes – every game in every competition in every country will be played on full detail

Would the players all demand to leave, leaving the club rich but playerless and in deep trouble?

No, not at all, and the original manager’s squad assessment ability was enough so that when the exodus began, he replaced them with a squad capable of performing at their divisional level. The players were too loyal to demand to leave instantly.

FM09 changes – the players will continue to be loyal, but also the next experiment will include designed managers and boards, so the whole behaviour may change

Would their money and profit coming from the ground be wisely invested in more players and a steady climb up the divisions?

Yes and no. Initially, absolutely, and their decent financial state meant they were never forced to sell for cash, only having their hands forced by players who wanted to step up. But at the same time, no manager seemed to really grasp the money that was available, or perhaps that should be that no player recognised that enough to step down a league for long term success. They’ve never had financial trouble, and are second only to Chelsea in the cashflow stakes.

FM09 changes – the new boards may just demand some interesting behaviours, or take control themselves. And yes, I said boards, as in the plural.

Would the money be worthless as no player of talent would join the club?

To an extent, this prediction proved accurate, as the sugar daddy and financial muscle did not overcome the fact that reputation rules all. Without the status as a big club, no amount of wages were attracting the players capable of taking the club forward quickly. Instead, the rise was slow and at times tortuous/

FM09 changes – one thing is for sure, and that is the Bandits will not be getting an artificial reputation in the next experiment (it wouldn’t last anyway). Instead, the commands will come from the board. The Bandits might have a great board, someone else might not.

Would the chairman get power hungry and go through a series of managers?

If only. Some hopeless managers were allowed to decimate squads before they were finally let go, so everyone certainly had a fair crack. The problem has been simply that the wrong managerial choices are consistently made.

FM09 changes – the Bandits will certainly begin with a talented and young chairman. He will eventually move on, however.

[kipfizh]

The good players

Would their loyalty see them stay with the Bandits for years, leading a rise through the divisions?

No, unfortunately. The clubs at the top have such good scouts that they were able to spot these talents early, especially those who were starring in the team. The Bandits only reached the top once the players had long since retired.

FM09 changes – While reputation wins, it is unlikely that these players would ever stay in the non league when the Premiership comes calling.

Would they leave in the first summer or January transfer window for a big club?

They all stayed for at least one season, so no, they did not leave instantly, but within two and a half years they were all gone.

FM09 changes – Perhaps running the game on full detail would improve the Bandits’ fortunes in that first season. Who knows, perhaps an FA Cup triumph would lead to Europe, a high reputation, and the players staying?

When would they become household names?

Very quickly – many were starting their international careers after two seasons, generally after impressing at a top club. But there were those who struggled, notably the wingers who tried to fit into Chelsea’s 5-3-2 system.

FM09 changes – On full detail, the players will show their true powers, and should become household names even quicker, perhaps by leading the Bandits to ridiculous scorelines in season one.

Just how much would they command in transfer fees?

Initially, not much, as the Conference South side realised their position in the hierarchy and demanded most of the money in clauses. After those initial sales, the Bandits mostly stayed loyal to their new club, even in the face of adversity sometimes, but those how did move went for 30m+.

FM09 changes – We all like to see the starlets rated highly, and the top clubs did just that. The Bandits did not realise their true value, however, perhaps a more ambitious board would solve that.

Who would they go to?

A who’s who of English football, and in Centre Back 1’s case, Milan. In fact, Centre Back 1 was to become the precursor to the great Carlo Lupo in Milan’s great history of top defenders.

FM09 changes – No changes

[kipfizh]

The bad players

Would they overcome their fragile and arrogant mental states to become world beaters?

In a way, yes, they certainly had decent careers and figured consistently on the international scene until the other starlets hit their peaks and replaced them, but you cannot say they turned out to be world beaters. They always played well enough, but their clubs had poor seasons whenever they were around, lending some evidence to the theory that idiots drag you down no matter how good they are.

FM09 changes – No changes.

Would anyone sign such a pair of troublemakers?

Time and time again, they moved on, before getting sick on their new environments, but the trouble was, we couldn’t track them closely once they’d moved abroad, as those leagues weren’t being run. They were always in demand though.

FM09 changes – Running every single remotely big league will mean we can track these players better

Just how many clubs would they get through in their careers?

Many. They changed every few seasons because they club weren’t going to win anything, even though it was their disruptive influence causing the problems. Gotta love them for that.

FM09 changes – No changes.

How many players would end up hating them?

Whenever they were at a club, they were treated with a mix of awe and disdain, some players not appreciating their attitude, whereas some others admired their fantastic ability.

FM09 changes – No players will be made to hate them, but perhaps the idiots should hate some of the world’s most promising players?

Would they ever go to a big club, or would their hatred of all the clubs hold them back?

Their hatred held them back – Newcastle and Spurs was their level, and because they hated the big clubs so much, they never got round to winning much silverware, which of course infuriated them.

FM09 changes – With more leagues being run, they will have more teams to hate.

How much trouble would they get with officials?

Plenty – the amount of fouls they committed per season was incredible, and they ended their careers with plenty of red cards, 36 between them, an incredible amount.

FM09 changes – Any other ways I can make them idiotic, I will.

Would they ever get international recognition for the right reasons?

For a while, yes, because they moved to Premiership clubs in their first season, building up their reputations before the rest of the starlets. Therefore, they got a headstart on their rivals, although once the good players had reached their peaks, the idiots went home.

FM09 changes – Hating Capello probably won’t help them, will it?

[kipfizh]

England

All these players are English. How long before they get call ups?

As soon as they were getting regular Premiership football, they made the step up to international level, which is some cases was within two years, but in others up to seven or eight because Chelsea refused to play them.

FM09 changes – They’ll all be English, so this won’t change.

Does the mental attitude affect the call-up - which players get in?

Once all the players had the same ability, the idiots began to miss out.

FM09 changes – No changes.

How well would England do with them?

They did very well, but did not dominate in the way you would expect them too, certainly not sweeping through every tournament. This may be in part because the tournaments were not played on full detail.

FM09 changes – Every qualifying and tournament match to be played on full detail.

[kipfizh]

Post playing career

Who would go on to be successful after their playing time was up?

Most of the Bandits chose to move straight into retirement rather than become managers, which was due to a combination of a lack of ambition and the feeling that they’d already succeeded in the football world as much as they wanted to. As for those who did take the step into management, they were not necessarily the talents they were in their playing careers.

FM09 changes – Their ambition may be raised from one to five, to give them more drive without making them disloyal.

[kipfizh]

Managerial tips

So that’s the original questions answered, but how does this affect you as a manager? What are the most important lessons that you can take into your games?

Reputation rules all

How you are perceived as a club, how you are doing according to your board, who will join you – all these are affected by reputation, and there is simply nothing more important for you to focus on. Don’t do a Bolton and sacrifice a European run for a couple of league places, that UEFA Cup run might just elevate your club to the level you need. If you want to build and keep a talented squad, you have to raise your profile.

Get rid of your idiots, even the talented ones

It is incredibly tempting to keep playing that player that you know is irritating the rest of your team, because he’s averaging 7.30 and is seemingly crucial. But what is he doing to the performances of the other ten players on the field?

The idiots always played well, yet their clubs did worse while they were there – the rest of the team struggled. In those cases, it is better to get rid of the great performer who winds the rest of the players up, and watch their performances improve without him.

Of course, it’s a judgement call – there are varying levels of idiot, but if the fans are unhappy at a signing, or other players think he provokes disharmony, it might be worth ditching him for a worse player unless he truly is indispensable.

Have the conviction to ditch the talented troublemaker.

CA is not everything

For those of you who use a scouting application, be aware that a player’s performance does not always directly correlate to their CA. On the most part, higher CA players will be better, as their stats are higher, but the balance can be all wrong.

Maia is still the most famous one – a CA of 199 for years and he was absolutely hopeless.

[kipfizh]

Major changes for FM09

More leagues to be played

The English leagues have changed dramatically in fifty years, with Sheff Wed now the dominant side and the order completely changed. But abroad, the story remains the same, because the countries are simply not being run. In addition, whenever a star player moves abroad, they cannot be accurately followed. This is true of the original starlets, the managers, and the world stars.

Seasons might take a long time to run, but it is important that the whole of England, Scotland, Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Holland, Portugal, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, and possibly a few more are run in detail.

Everything on full detail

On full detail the starlets would be awesome, qualifying matches for international tournaments might not be predictable and repetitive, and there might be a higher scoring game than 5-0 in fifty years. It is a no brainer.

Designed coaches

Like the players, there will be wonderful young managers, and at least one talented idiot available to the world. All will be tracked.

Designed boards

The Bandits will have a pre-designed board, as will at least two other clubs. There might just be a combination of board and manager out there that will never ever work…

[/i]The anti-Bandits[/i]

Could it be possible that the Bandits have such fierce rivals, that stand for everything the Bandits do not? The most hated and hateful club in the country? Stay tuned….

And more....

[kipfizh]

Originally posted by WolvesBestEvaManager:

KUTGW Kip.

Would you mind telling what division Wolves are in

They've just gone back up to the Championship through the League One playoffs. They bounce between the two leagues, but have never been in the Premiership in the experiment's fifty years.

[kipfizh]

Originally posted by leonavich:

by the way.. how is Forde doing since leaving the bandits?

He's still in the Premiership, now at Chesterfield, but has averaged under seven every season of his career.

[turn it upto 11]

maybe for the new experiment have 2 teams, both lots of money but one team with 18 good other team with 18 bad players, the anti bandits.

[turn it upto 11]

sorry didnt read the changes for fm 09 i see you have already though of it.

maybe give the players real names, people from the forum, the top posters on this experiment.

would do my own but editor wont work, it says reinstall but doesnt help

[kipfizh]

Season 2056-57

Bandits report - Transfers (part one)

Robbie Way was an unpopular man. Having made a series of horrible transfers in the past year, his team had somehow scraped their way to sixth and back into Europe largely because their small squad went out of all the cups so early.

Reliant on a core of about five or six players, Way desperately needed to bring in some talent, in order to push the Bandits back up towards the higher echelons of the league. With the media predicting them to finish third, early failure could see him dismissed.

Summer

The summer began with the usual clearout of the less talented products of the youth team, before the real action began on July 1. Left winger John Baptiste had had a shocking first season in the team, averaging just 6.29, and when Spurs came in with an 8m offer, the management team took little time to accept it. He went on to play better for his new club, without really impressing. Of course, that left the Bandits without a left winger, but the hope was that Way would not repeat his mistakes at left back last season and ignore the gap.

Another youth team product, a young keeper, was then sold to West Brom for 140k, before the final departure of the season, legend Javier Esteban Martin, who had been so prolific up front for years, but with age finally catching up on him, he decided to move into retirement.

And for once, that was it. Way had not sold half the first team, just a left winger, so he needed to replace Baptiste and fill the holes he created last season. Had he actually come to his senses?

It certainly seemed so when he finally plugged the gap he so criminally created last season, signing a left back in the shape of Slovenian 27 year old Borut Sadar, paying Chelsea 11m for the experienced international. Peaked at a CA of 174, he is certainly a talent and a very good signing. A good start to the summer.

But as July turned into August, the worry set in amongst the fans again. Way seemed content with his squad, and replaced Baptiste with an on loan left winger, getting 30 year old Emilio Mora from Porto for the season. With a CA of 151, the Portuguese winger wasn’t likely to set the world alight, and would leave the Bandits with another hole to fill when he returned to his club.

And as the first day of the season approached, it became clear that Way was not going to add to his squad any more. Content to once again rely on a small group of stars, while claiming that a settled side would be to his advantage, he was playing a risky game. Once again, Rubio and co would have to save his skin.

Optimism was in short supply.

[kipfizh]

Bandits report – Season report (part one)

August-December

After a season in which the fans had turned on their new manager, he didn’t help himself in the summer by signing only one player. Robbie Way was a marked man, and he could only save himself by having a particular good start to the season. With the media bizarrely predicting that the club would finish third in the Premiership, plus the pressures of a European campaign putting strain on the thin squad, he would have his work cut out.

The first day of the season was an opportunity to get a good start, with a home match to Crystal Palace. Having led twice, they were held 2-2 at half time, before Palace went down to ten men early in the second half. Despite this, the Bandits failed to capitalise, and dropped points from a relatively easy game. What followed was disastrous – a 4-1 hammering at a very average Sunderland side.

They did pick up a win in their next game against Hull, but a loss to Aston Villa saw them go into the UEFA Cup 1st Round tie with AaB of Denmark in poor form. But Rubio struck in the first minute of the away leg to make the tie seem much more comfortable, and they continued to apply the pressure in the early stages. All of a sudden, AaB equalised, and by half time, the home side were ahead, against the run of play. When the Danes added a third before the end to take a comfortable lead into the second leg, the fans began to turn.

The stuttering form continued in the league, a win over West Ham being followed by a loss to Chelsea, and then AaB arrived in town for the second leg, their keeper prepared for an onslaught. But when Kevin Parker was sent off inside the first ten minutes, the tie became a real uphill battle, and the Bandits stopped threatening, the match ending goalless. They were out of Europe.

Two points from their next three games and the board decided that they’d had enough. Having seen the poor transfers, witnessing an exit from Europe and with the team 15th in the Premiership, Robbie Way was fired on October 22.

His replacement was Alan McDermott, a 57 year old with a CA of 109 and a PA of 114. His man management is superb, and his scouting ability is also excellent, so perhaps the club’s transfer movement will be somewhat improved. His hidden buying players score in seven, but I’m unsure whether this represents an ability or a frequency of activity.

Alan McDermott

As with so many of his predecessors, his motivational skills rival that of a mute sloth, but otherwise he looks pretty solid. He’s been with quite a few clubs, but his best achievement was at Bristol City, where he gained two promotions in his first two years, and then kept them in the Championship for the next five before leaving.

His first match was a League Cup tie with Crystal Palace, which was lost 2-1 in extra time to see the Bandits tumble out of another competition, while his Premiership campaign started badly too with a 3-1 defeat to Chesterfield, although that one can be mitigated by the fact that they were down to nine men just after the half hour.

The signs were improved when they won against Aldershot, before an impressive 3-0 victory away at a strong Burnley side pushed them back up towards mid table. But defeat to Sheff Wed and a couple of injuries saw them embark on a run of six games without a win, just four points gleaned in that time. Rubio’s winner against Port Vale ended the winless streak, before Crystal Palace, their new bogey team, beat them again.

The last match of the calendar year saw them gain impressive revenge on Sunderland, Rubio’s stunning hattrick winning the game 3-0 and seeing them end 2056 in 14th place. McDermott now had a transfer window to work on the incredibly thin squad.

There was one final piece of squad news before the turn of the year – Aitor Rubio was nominated in the top three for World Footballer of the Year, and ended up in the runners up spot. Congratulations to him.

[kipfizh]

Bandits report - Transfers (part two)

Transfers In

Transfers Out

January

New manager Alan McDermott had been in charge for a little over two months when the January window opened, and the fans were hoping that he would be able to reverse the damage done by the horrific reign of Robbie Way and put his own stamp on the squad.

First to leave was Kevin Parker. The centre back and defensive midfielder had arrived three years earlier for 8.25m, but had only one good season, and at 33 was fading away. Crystal Palace picked him up for 1.3m, and he enjoyed some improved form at his new club.

Finnish goalkeeper Heikki Halonen had been third choice for years, and at 26 finally went in search of first team football, joining West Brom for 875k. A decent keeper, he never really got close to challenging Johnstone and McParland.

The next sale was tinged with disappointment. Luke Matthews was not having a particular good time of things at right back, but he was certainly a talent, so when Arsenal paid 12.75m for him, the was initially unhappiness amongst the fans. But then Matthews went on to play extremely poorly for Arsenal, and suddenly the sale seemed wiser than first thought.

The final sale was a relief to anyone who had seen Sergio Monroy play. Unable to average even as high as a six, the centre back was completely out of his depth in the Premiership, and it was a relief when he moved to Sheff Utd for 1.8m.

With the wide positions in need of improvement as ever, McDermott then turned his attention to bringing players in. But first he tried to strengthen the centre of midfield, signing 27 year old Frenchman Cyrille Diane for 5m from Aston Villa. With a CA of 161 and a PA of 170, he was a decent squad player, although not one to rely on in a pinch.

Clearly thinking he had found his weak area of the side, McDermott then purchased another central midfielder, 25 year old Italian and fantastically named Luigi Terranova. Like Diane, he had a CA of 161, but his PA was a little higher at 173 and he had a bit more time on his side.

The fans were encouraged by how McDermott was increasing the depths of his squad, but they would be disappointed to know he would only make one more signing, and it was not in a wide position. Instead, Peter Griffin was brought back to the club having left to go to Man City for 6m three years earlier. A spell at Chelsea had followed for the centre back, before the Bandits brought him back for 3.1m. He might be 30, but with a CA of 169, only five below his potential, he is still a very capable defender.

So the signings seemed pretty decent, without setting the world alight, but the sheer number of them was disappointing, especially given how weak they now were on the flanks. Could McDermott improve the club’s fortunes and then progress them in the summer?

[kipfizh]

Bandits report - squad

Top 20 in Squad (sorted by CA)

Name, Pos, Age, CA-PA

Rubio, ST, 28, 184-184 (-)

Birchall, MC, 29, 179-188 (+1)

Messner, ST, 28, 175-175 (-)

Sadar, DL, 27, 174-174 – new signing

Christie, DC, 28, 173-179 (-2)

McParland, GK, 27, 172-173 (+2)

Williamson, MC, 30, 171-189 (-3)

Griffin, DC, 30, 169-174 – new signing

Cox, AM RC, 26, 168-177 (+1)

Johnstone, GK, 37, 166-173 (-1)

Dompig, D/M C, 31, 163-170 (-7)

Terranova, MC, 25, 161-173 – new signing

Diane, MC, 27, 161-170 – new signing

Boateng, D/WB L, 26, 161-169 (+2)

Bossu, ST, 27, 161-165 (+3)

Mitrev, WB/AM R, 25, 159-171 (-)

Fernandez, D RL, 21, 157-174 (+4)

Kolev, DC, 31, 153-153 (-)

Mora, AM L, 30, 151-151 – on loan from Porto

Kastner, D LC, 32, 143-151 – new entry in top 20

Players in last season’s top 20 who have left the club:

Matthews, DR, 26, 172-185

Halonen, GK, 25, 168-171

Parker, DC/DM, 32, 159-176

Baptiste, AM L, 25, 159-164

Monroy, DC, 24, 156-167

Players in last season’s top 20 who have dropped out of the top 20:

Russell, WB/AM R, 31, 140-184 (-14)

The first thing that sticks out is the last man on the list – David Kastner has somehow found himself on the list despite a CA of only 143, showing that in reality the Bandits have a squad of nineteen players, which is far too small, especially in a season where they had qualified for Europe.

The top end is still looking okay, with Sadar a good signing, while Terranova and Diane plug a gap in midfield, but the club simply needs a higher quantity of talented players, and some youth.

Notable others:

None

CA of X or above:

190 : 0 … 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

180 : 0 … 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1

170 : 0 … 4, 4, 6, 9, 5, 6, 7, 8, 7

160 : 0 … 12, 9, 15, 17, 19, 18, 19, 11, 15

150 : 0 … 19, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 26, 21, 19

140 : 0 … 25, 27, 27, 29, 33, 29, 26, 22, 21

130 : 0 … 28, 30, 30, 32, 35, 30, 26, 24, 22

120 : 0 … 29, 34, 30, 35, 36, 31, 27, 25, 23

110 : 0 … 31, 35, 33, 37, 39, 31, 27, 25, 25

100 : 2 … 34, 33, 39, 36, 38, 41, 29, 27, 26

At the top, Rubio remains the star, while at the 170+ level, Matthews was replaced by Sadar, but Dompig’s fade means the number drops. After last season’s dismal drop in 160+ players, the number does make a small recovery, but below that, the 150+ players in the lowest in seven years.

The new manager, Alan McDermott, has a job on his hands this summer.

[valencia]

long-time reader, first time poster (as the cliche goes)

wow, great work Kip. I must say that I am especially looking forward to the FM09 experiment after your teasers above. I should imagine you will need a monstrous PC to cope with all those leagues on full detail (considering the experiment will hopefully last 50 years of gametime itself. I would suggest you keep the names of the players as GK1, GK2 etc. It makes it much easier to track.

now, perhaps a contentious point, will you start the experiment as soon as FM09 is out, or will you wait for any patches to be released (i'm just being realistic here). Some patches have historically, despit being 'save game compatible', only really taken full effect on new save games.

Anyway, that aside, KUTGW and well done on a very interesting thread. You must have a very understanding wife to be able to dedicate so much time to this (we're grateful!)

cheers.

[valencia]

Thank God Way has gone. His tenure seems like an unmitigated disaster!

[thezogsageordie]

I've noticed this in the forums but never actually looked in it, I've read the last page and this seems wicked! I should've read from the start! If I ever get fed up with managing on FM08 I think I'll do something like this but with me as the manager and possibly holiday! Great stuff.

[Wegason]

Originally posted by kipfizh:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by magicmastermind124:

There is already an amazing Experiment with Birth of a Nation which I reckon is the next generation of experiments.

Seconded. There are quite a lot of experiments out there now, but Wegason's is outstanding, not least because of the effort setting up a new nation complete with competitions and teams takes.

Seriously, try editing that much data - you'll give up in agonised frustration.

Linkage </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, thanks Kip. I actually edited the data for my experiment with the beta patch, which then wouldn't work with 8.01 or 8.02, so I had to then recreate the database from scratch for 8.02 for my New Dawn in a New Land Challenge. So in effect, I've created the database twice.

Thanks for the linkage, I'm much obliged.

Great 50 year update.

Originally posted by kipfizh:

The good players

Would their loyalty see them stay with the Bandits for years, leading a rise through the divisions?

No, unfortunately. The clubs at the top have such good scouts that they were able to spot these talents early, especially those who were starring in the team. The Bandits only reached the top once the players had long since retired.

FM09 changes – While reputation wins, it is unlikely that these players would ever stay in the non league when the Premiership comes calling.

Would they leave in the first summer or January transfer window for a big club?

They all stayed for at least one season, so no, they did not leave instantly, but within two and a half years they were all gone.

FM09 changes – Perhaps running the game on full detail would improve the Bandits’ fortunes in that first season. Who knows, perhaps an FA Cup triumph would lead to Europe, a high reputation, and the players staying?

When would they become household names?

Very quickly – many were starting their international careers after two seasons, generally after impressing at a top club. But there were those who struggled, notably the wingers who tried to fit into Chelsea’s 5-3-2 system.

FM09 changes – On full detail, the players will show their true powers, and should become household names even quicker, perhaps by leading the Bandits to ridiculous scorelines in season one.

Just how much would they command in transfer fees?

Initially, not much, as the Conference South side realised their position in the hierarchy and demanded most of the money in clauses. After those initial sales, the Bandits mostly stayed loyal to their new club, even in the face of adversity sometimes, but those how did move went for 30m+.

FM09 changes – We all like to see the starlets rated highly, and the top clubs did just that. The Bandits did not realise their true value, however, perhaps a more ambitious board would solve that.

Who would they go to?

A who’s who of English football, and in Centre Back 1’s case, Milan. In fact, Centre Back 1 was to become the precursor to the great Carlo Lupo in Milan’s great history of top defenders.

FM09 changes – No changes

In my database/experiment/challenge I found that when I was setting my 'starlets' reputations as deliberately low, and running in full detail, those players with fantastic ability left within a season, often before the start of the season. This was with high loyalty set, their favourite club being the one they're at, and this is at clubs with reputations around 5000.

They were leaving for small amounts when they had low reputations personally, so I decided to experiment with giving them maximum reputation. This had a different effect for me, some of the starlets stayed, for two seasons, and then left for bigger money. One of them stayed for a season before leaving for £1.2 million plus clauses, as opposed to the players before moving around for £20-50k.

[5ergio]

I guess we have to wait for FM2009 to see some talented manager at helm How come they can not see that the wide positions are week, especially their favourite position is 4-4-2. Yet again, considering low levels of tactical knowledge for the last managers, maybe that are thinking the wings aren't that important

Fantastic 50 year update Kip. Eagerly waiting the FM2009 one to see the big differences and to read a more detailed story

[Harv88]

Fantastic 50 year review. After the teasers for the 09 experiment I think I'm looking forward to the experiment more that actually playing the game myself.

On a different note, and apologies if this has been asked before, but will the 07 database be made available? As I'd love to manage The Bandits myself. KUTGW Kip.

[AB-forever]

AaB knocked The Bandits out of the UEFA Cup

Rubio came 2nd in World Footballer Of The Year

Finally Way has gone!

But I'm still a little worried by the new manager's lack of determination, motivation skill and tactical knowledge and why are his wages so low?

Amazing 50 year review so KUTGW as always

[JRHaggs]

Excellent.

We're still all hanging on to your every update. Can't wait for more.

Really can't wait for the '09 experiment.

You're the man.

[OrientMartin]

Originally posted by Harv88:

Fantastic 50 year review. After the teasers for the 09 experiment I think I'm looking forward to the experiment more that actually playing the game myself.

On a different note, and apologies if this has been asked before, but will the 07 database be made available? As I'd love to manage The Bandits myself. KUTGW Kip.

I think he's mentioned before that after the experiment has run its course he will make the save file and/or the database available.

Also, great 50 year review Kip, you legend!!

[Scott1990]

Peter Griffin

Good update.

Out of curiosity, which players are on the Bandits' favorite personnel list? Sorry if this has been asked before.

[Meitheisman]

If I may, I have an additional suggestion for your FM09 Experiment, how about giving another nationality to half of the original players to see which nation picks them up first? Try some average to low nation and also the big names of football to see if an 18 year old starlet is willing to wait an extra year to play for Brazil/France instead of England and if some of them chose to play for Bulgaria/Nigeria. Being non-English myself (French) I’d like to see some of the stars pick other nations plus it would give us an opportunity to see if one superstar can bring a nation to success.

I can’t wait for FM09 already, the new detail level should make an interesting difference.

Great update as usual

[VonBlade]

Great update Kip. I haven't read the seasonal update yet because I wanted to get these few points across whilst I still thought of them.

Idiots. Be very careful trying to make them too idiotic. I've done lots of experiments with nerfing players and sometimes if they're too idiotic they'll never ever get a game. Which surely isn't the point?

Slack players (low determination, bravery etc) end up just being too lazy to impress and thus rot on the bench.

Ron Chopper Harris' (temperamental, controversial, low composure, diving into tackles dirtyness) often mellow out quickly, or their stupendous thuggery leads to them again rotting in the reserves. I've yet to (after about 60 players) find a magic Vinnie Jones formula. Even the most brutal players I've created only get 10 red cards in a career.

Ambition.

This kinda follows the above so I'll put it here. Don't be too scared of making the players ambitious. I've had some 20 loyalty, 20 professionalism, 17 ambition players who stayed with the club their whole career. Being determined and ambitious, but loyal and professional can turn a Maia into a Gullit without making them move clubs all the time.

Conversely a disloyal idiot but with very low ambition can change clubs often because they just don't care.

Rival Club.

This club has to, and as one of the original fans of the Bandits my opinion is law (lmfao), be called the Sheriffs. Just has to.

Right. Onto the season review....

[Guest sand-storm-uk]

Whoa! What a fantastic read!!

I never thought I would ever have become so attached to a player called Right Mid 1 but the guy is life a father figure to me!

It was very interesting to see that the lower leagues can't just be bought straight away but then again, I suppose a massive cash boost would have upped the rep of the team in question IRL which would have attracted a better quality of player, etc.

Anyway, just wanted to thank you for taking ten hours of my life away Kip

KUTF-F-TW!!

(Keep Up The Fan-Friggin'-Tastic Work!!)

[JRHaggs]

I was thinking about that also, Meitheisman. Especially if, as we have been lead to believe, there will be multiple teams under observation. Creating two (or more?!?!) teams worth of top-notch English players would create a bizarre scene regarding English international selection.

One problem that I see, though, relates to experimental control. The fewer variables that are under scrutiny, the better the experiment. Do we know the innate effects of nationality (reputation/language issues/etc.)? If it matters, it might be better to avoid multiple nationalities.

Come to think of it, however, there is actually a lot of value in having all the players be a single nationality. If they all start at the same age with the same essential stat profiles (not including hidden attributes like loyalty) we may be able to learn quite a bit about how the AI selects a side for internationals. This is an issue that has been the seed of many a ranting forum thread.

Hmmm...

I got a little carried away there, but I think, buried in the mess above, there might be at least one or two tidbits that bear some consideration.

Thoughts?

[canvey!!]

I think the consideration is what the AI experiment is for. If you want it primarily for entertainment, use the multiple nationalities. This would give us perhaps a more general AI overview in that area, or more specific if you are targeting the differences between the national teams. But, as per JRHaggs' point, if you're keen on focussing there for discovery, and the entertainment isn't as important, stick with one nationality.

Personally, I vouch for Meitheisman, but there is plenty to be learnt both ways.

[VonBlade]

Thank Kip for that. Way has gone a-way (see what I did there ).

Hmmm. New guy seems like he could be better than we've had for a while. Maybe this purchase of MCs will see a shift from 442 to something like 4132 or 433. Might as well fill the middle of the park up if we're toothless on the wide bit.

Gonna be a season to write off methinks.

More FM09 stuff

I'd be disappointed to see real-names on the players. The faceless nature of GK1 etc really helped us see them for their stats, rather than a name. It also makes it LOADS easier to track them, especially as the FM09 database will be massive compared to the original. (although if me and Meitheismann end up as directors we wouldn't complain lol).

I do like the idea of second nationalities though. Nothing stupid like San Marino because they'll obviously end up there and never feature in the major competitions, but some middling nations as second nationalities could prove interesting in a "one player makes a team" way and also let more of them enjoy international football when their Bandits teammates fill up all the starting slots.

VB

[JRHaggs]

A quick follow-up:

The degree to which this is truly intended to be an experiment is totally up to Kip. I am very analytical, so it is my nature to point out what I see as experimental stumbling blocks and opportunities.

I feel like what we have learned from the '07 experiment is not at all what we had set out to learn. The main thing that I learned is how little value the CA/PA system has as a stand-alone methodology for assessing players. If Kip can suggest the stripped-down, basic issues that he'd like to investigate, I bet, as a group, we can create a really useful and insightful experiment.

OK. That's all for now.

[Meitheisman]

Originally posted by VonBlade:

I do like the idea of second nationalities though. Nothing stupid like San Marino because they'll obviously end up there and never feature in the major competitions, but some middling nations as second nationalities could prove interesting in a "one player makes a team" way and also let more of them enjoy international football when their Bandits teammates fill up all the starting slots.

I actually suggested giving them dual citizenship, one of the Idiots could have San Marino as a second nationality and have him hate Capelo to see if he ****s up his own international career and plays for a team that will never go to a big tournament or if he still plays for England.

Most players with dual citizenship, if done, should be of nations that often qualify for major tournaments though.

I'm sure some twists here and there could make this much better so suggest away, also this could be a major difference, since there will be 2 teams (Bandits & Sheriffs) will you create 22 or 44 starlets Kipfizh?

[canvey!!]

There is of course the idea of basing the whole thing in another league. This has the benefit of seeing what happens to the 'Bandits' in a league with a lower rep, and if league rep is no longer fixed for FM09, how their presence would affect it. For example, base the entire thing in Iraq - would the players be going to Chelsea? Or more likely Maccabai Haifa? However, in terms of the playable leagues, England is always the best.

[Meitheisman]

The English League/non-League is definitely the best one to use since you can see the club rise from further down. Is there any other country that has 6 playable divisions?

[canvey!!]

No, that's what England has going for it. But it seems that is the only thing it has going for it - if looking at the idea of staging it somewhere else.

[Mravac Kid]

Originally posted by VonBlade:

...Nothing stupid like San Marino...

Now there's a thought... make a squad of starlets, and make them all San Marinese...

With matches on full detail, they would probably find themselves at the top of the food chain fairly soon.

I'd also like to see a squad of starlets, but with very high ambition, as VonBlade said.

Perhaps making a German team of Raubritters as counterparts to the Bandits?

[Mravac Kid]

Originally posted by Meitheisman:

The English League/non-League is definitely the best one to use since you can see the club rise from further down. Is there any other country that has 6 playable divisions?

Unfortunately, no. Scotland, France, Germany, Italy and, strangely enough, Sweden have 4 leagues, others have 3 or fewer.

[Fox in the Box]

Great update once again Kip.

Hooray it is the end of Way! Too bad the replacement doesn't care much for squad depth either...

Regarding the rival team to the Bandits in the FM09 experiment, may I suggest having them as an English team based in Wales much like Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are so that the majority of newgens for them are of Welsh nationality and then we could potentially see what impact good academy newgens can have upon a smaller nation on the international scene when it is played in full detail.

[The Lambs]

Great update again, as usual.

Can't wait to see if this new guy can turn the second half of the season around, but some how I don't think he will. I am predicting the worst finish for the bandits in years and a new manager by the end of the year.

[Mravac Kid]

Sorry for the distraction, I just thought this might be interesting as a preview of the future Bandits experiment.

Just for kicks, I edited San Marino (the club) to give them Bandit-like players and cash, plus top-rate coaches and management. I gave them all aggression and ambition 10, other stats AFAIK the same as Kip's experiment. I didn't make any idiots, though perhaps their careers would be significantly different in actual leagues.

I let it run until the new year, with all matches set on full detail for top two leagues in Spain, Germany, England and France, and all Italian leagues.

At the new-year mark, they were 1st in Serie C2B, with 222 goals for, 1 against (and, strangely, 2 matches drawn). The top striker had 59 goals in 14 matches with average rating 9.71 before going to Fiorentina, two of the matches ended 22-0, and several more with 15+ goals.

Of the 22 players, only 8 remain in San Marino, others went abroad... 4 to Real Madrid and Barcelona, two to Sevilla, one to Arsenal, Fiorentina and Man UTD... one was sent on loan to Cagliese before the start of the season.

20 of them were called up to the San Marino national squad, all but two of the strikers. Too late to have them qualify for the Euro, but they won their last 5 qualifying games... 3:2 at home against the Czechs after playing with 10 men for 60 minutes, 4:0 Cyprus away, 3:0 Slovakia away, 5:0 Wales at home, and 6:0 Slovakia at home.

Those in Spain are now playing in C clubs, so I'll probably have to turn on the detail for those leagues as well to see how it goes...

[djhdjh]

On the subject of league development over time, Spain and Italy will not develop much at all at the top. The reputation gaps are just too big to be breached by more than 1 club at the most, and even then it will be by other relatively big clubs such as Napoli or Zaragoza. Typical mid table clubs like Palermo or Betis just won't get a look in. England has much smaller reputation gaps in its top flight, therefore clubs swap around at the top more.

I've reached a game in 2028 and because of this trend no English club has won the Champions League since the gam started as no English club can establish dominance enough to get a really top notch squad together. I'll be interested to see if the same happens in your version and if FM 09 deals with this.

[JRHaggs]

djhdjh -

Do you have those leagues (Spain & Italy) running on full detail? That seems to be the most important issue regarding league volatility/predictability.

[Wegason]

In many of my saves the big four in England dominate the Champions League, four of the top five clubs by club ranking in the Champions League are the big four. Many times they all reach the quarter finals, sometimes all four make the semi-finals.

That's running the top six leagues in Europe, but not on full detail.

[JRHaggs]

Full detail seems to be everything.