Detailed experiment of youth development - Troubling results

[xouman]

I have thought about this thread, and the problem is clearly not all due to improving as I said before: initial CA for regens seems to be the major problem.

-In initial scenario 300 players didn't nearly achieve their PA

-In second scenario only 100 players didn't nearly achieve their PA

First conclusion: players improve, maybe further than IRL (according to researchers; I think they perform very good their tasks). Otherwise, there will be more players far from their PA.

-In future (future = only regens) scenarios a reasonable amount of players won't nearly achieve their PA

Second conclusion: as players start with low CA, it's difficult to them to achieve their PA, even if they improve it more than IRL.

I think the solution is not make quicker players development, but make more regens start to similar CA than their PA. Great players don't dramatically improve in short time: they are already good before, maybe in bad morale or position, but good indeed.

[route1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hyperion479:

Granted, not all clubs/nations/managers should give the same opportunities to youngsters to develop. Similar to RL, clubs/nations that are struggling or underperforming should tend to afford youngsters more opportunities to break into the first team. And maybe as someone suggested earlier in this thread, managers should have a more distinct mentality in their team selections and transfers that biases them more towards certain age preference and development styles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps in the future "youth development" could be an additional manager stat to allow for this?

[SiN8]

Tracking players - Savegame 6

Lulinha - 27 yr - AMC - Roma

2007 - 104/187

2009 - 133/187

2011 - 150/187

2013 - 174/187

2015 - 176/187

2017 - 180/187

Lulinha is playing well for Roma and was rewarded with his first cap for Brazil at age 25.

Dean Vaughn - 26 yr - DC - Chivas USA

2007 - 66/189

2009 - 68/189

2011 - 73/189

2013 - 82/189

2015 - 98/189

2017 - 115/189

Strange things in the MLS. Dean played regularly for Chivas USA for one season before being released on free. Los Angeles picked him up and released him within 4 days. Then Chivas USA signs him again and has Dean as a regular in the next season. Anyways, Dean at 24-26 did improve 17 points. If only his development was not stunted for the first 6 season...BYU Cougars can't be that bad.

Thiago - 26 yr - MC - Inter

2007 - 90/173

2009 - 124/173

2011 - 151/173

2013 - 165/173

2015 - 168/173

2017 - 168/173

Played well for Inter despite not improving.

[SiN8]

Savegame 7: August 1, 2019

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119...55755...55817...55774

Real Players left: 11869

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7.....5.....2

180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41....39....41

170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123...132...155

160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93....85....93

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0

180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0

170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0.....0.....0

160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1.....0.....1

150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1.....1.....0

140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2.....4.....6

130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22....16....27

120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76....60....70

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947.....944.....936.....960

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34.....36.....28.....23

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength >=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5.....10....9.....9

180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19....31....36....47

170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79....89....103...101

160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93....80....85....79

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0.....0.....0.....0

180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1.....0.....3.....1

170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9.....4.....5.....5

160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17....23....27....29

150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95....51....58....51

140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182...136...130...125

130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356...234...241...254

120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539...423...391...377

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564.....464.....423.....417

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139.....99.....79.....73

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength >=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6.....6.....2.....2

180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16....10....14....11

170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97....84....65....67

Wasted Potential

Players who underachieved*: 302.....222.....104.....104.....120.....135.....146

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA >= 150, but their PA - CA >= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.

International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905...650...536...574

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 2.....13....21....11....2.....2.....3

Oldest player >= 170 CA with no caps: Lucas[32] - 170 CA

Highest CA without caps: Toni Kroos[29] - 175 CA

England

Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3.....2.....1.....5

Undeserved Callup - One player with 149.

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....5.....1.....0.....0.....2

Biggest snub - Jamie Bagnall[24] - 168 CA

Spain

Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2.....6.....4.....4

Undeserved Callup - Two players with CAs of 132 and 143.

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....7.....5.....3.....0.....0.....0

Italy

Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1.....2.....3.....10

Undeserved Callup - Six player under 160

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....2.....1.....0.....0

France

Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3.....1.....5.....7

Undeserved Callup - Six players under 160. The 130 CA fullback now has 14 caps.

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....2.....6.....1.....0.....2.....1

Biggest snub - Cedric Benoit[24] - 167 CA

Germany

Players under 25 with international caps: 16....8.....1.....0.....2.....11.....9

Undeserved Callup - Truly awful. 121, 124, 139 are the worst out of the six players under

160.

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....2.....1.....0.....0.....0

Holland

Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2.....0.....4.....1

Undeserved Callup - The lone youngster has 134 CA.

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....1.....1.....0.....0.....0

Brazil

Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4.....2.....5.....4

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....4.....3.....0.....0

Argentina

Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3.....1.....1.....5

Undeserved Callup - Two players with 132 and 152.

Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....0.....0.....0.....0

Analysis

Nothing too surprising here. Overall quality of league is a bit diminished. There's only 47 regens over 170 CA.

International squads are full of scrubs. Players with 120 and 130 CA are now playing for the top nations. Lucas is now 32 years old and still have not played for Brazil despite having over 180CA during his peak. Granted, there's a Brazilian ST with 190 CA ahead of him, but surely Lucas could have been called up as a substitute?

The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available?

[SiN8]

Tracking players - Savegame 7

Lulinha - 29 yr - AMC - Roma

2007 - 104/187

2009 - 133/187

2011 - 150/187

2013 - 174/187

2015 - 176/187

2017 - 180/187

2019 - 179/187

Starting to see first signs of decline. Still playing well for Roma.

Dean Vaughn - 28 yr - DC - Kansas City

2007 - 66/189

2009 - 68/189

2011 - 73/189

2013 - 82/189

2015 - 98/189

2017 - 115/189

2019 - 137/189

After 5 seasons for Chivas USA (not including the 4 day stint at Los Angeles), Dean signed a new contract with Kansas City. His improvement is astonishing considering he was 26-28. He's actually a pretty compenent player now.

Thiago - 28 yr - MC - Inter

2007 - 90/173

2009 - 124/173

2011 - 151/173

2013 - 165/173

2015 - 168/173

2017 - 168/173

2019 - 168/173

Nothing interesting here. Doing well. Stopped improving.

[alwo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it.

[SiN8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That explains it. Thank you alwo. Please disregard all tests regarding Germany. My fault.

[xouman]

One thing that has been not pointed is the non-pyramidal PA now. In initial scenario, 190 PA << 180 PA << 170 PA << 160 PA, but after that, there are always more regens with 170-179 PA than 160-169 PA. Pretty weird IMHO :/

The progression of Dean Vaughn is something that I had expected. Players are really improving now, the problem with youngsters is not improving but initial CA.

And I think that "Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps" is not longer useful: there are far less players under 25 >= 165 PA. Maybe "Number of players capped with lower CA than the uncapped player with highest CA" or "Number of uncapped players with higher CA than the lowest CA capped player" will add more information. Only my opinion

[Sir_Liam]

The improvement of Dean Vaughn later on in his career is very good to see, and shows that players can continue developing at an older age, rather than up until 23.

[thebigman1985]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

where is this file i can delete so the german nt plays with real players?

[DMaster2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thebigman1985:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

where is this file i can delete so the german nt plays with real players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have tried serch it but i could only find the originale database, no sign of the 8.0.1 tough...

[mattyspurs76]

where is this file i can delete so the german nt plays with real players?

Is it in the prefernces? sure ive seen something in there where can also choose harchester team/board takeovers etc.. (could be wrong)

[kennec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Riz:

Just because we don't reply to every thread does not mean it is ignored. Especially if it is constructive and makes good reading

Our testers have done similar analysis on the player progression during testing as seen here and will continue to do so in the future. It is indeed good to get more opinions on the player development matters and especially opinions with factual support as well. We will be looking at both our internal analysis as well as feedback such as this thread as we continue to finetune things in the code.

Balancing such a complex part of the game as player progression is not something that can be done overnight as the development of a player is affected by a lot of variables (clubs, coaches, injuries etc.) outside of just the starting ability and potential. Naturally the best we can aim for is to try and make the future generations of players in the game reflect the starting database as closely as we can. And like I said above, we do make similar internal analysis as well over the long term player development and we will continue to finetune things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

risto remes is the star at SI. i miss your ehm dude!!!

[DMaster2]

Found the fake.lnc file!

Go to C (or where you have installed it) -> Programs (again) -> Sports Interactive -> Football Manager 2008 -> data -> updates -> update-801 -> db -> 801 -> lnc -> all and then delete it!

[kennec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erithtotl:

One thing I've always wondered about as far as player development:

whenever you take over a new club, or ask the AI to automatically assign coaches, the default is to have every coach doing every training type they are allowed. The result is that you have a bunch of coaches training each type of trianing not very well. Any half-decent human player is going to specialize their coaches, getting much more out of each training category.

Is this how the AI does it when it manages a team? It's been this way since the new training mechanism was introduced, and would seem to me to partially explain the poor player development.

Of course, this ignores the other issues, like too few high PA players and too low physical stats, but that's another story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i been thinking about this to alot.

mayby next weak i try make some simulations to see how its done.mayby i take over an big club and sign a young player with high pa and play and train him well.

and at same time use an save game that goes for holiday AND the high pa young player will devolp freely and prolly end up in a big club.

would be fun to compare these to players after the games to the diffence. does 7star training and perfect conditions and 1 team exp means player gets way further and devolp to an world class player.or will they end up the same???

[fabioke]

This thread is worth gold I am sure that SI can learn alot from your research. I'm only curious what SI thinks about this.

[eple]

Very interesting thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiN8:

Tracking players - Savegame 7

Lulinha - 29 yr - AMC - Roma

2007 - 104/187

2009 - 133/187

2011 - 150/187

2013 - 174/187

2015 - 176/187

2017 - 180/187

2019 - 179/187 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a question that is related to something you don't seem to have brought up, apologies if I've missed it. Judging by his CA Lulinha is a top class players, but I'm curious, does his attributes reflect this if you compare him to top class players at the start of the game?

After a few seasons playing the game with the patch I've noticed that though players that start with relatively low CA and a high PA develop their CA reasonably (albeit at a slower rate than before), the points gained in CA doesn't make them much better players. Lulinha is a good example. Three seasons in in my game and he is at around 150 in CA, but in example compared to Matías Fernández (starts with CA 158) he looks noting more than a decent Championship player and his performance reflect this.

It's the same with Ever Banega. He has a CA of around 165 and judging by his CA he should be my best CM, but his attributes are much lower compared to my senior players, who have CA from 140-160. My point being, players that start the game with a high CA have a lot better skills than players that develop in the game.

[SiN8]

Savegame 8: August 1, 2021

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119...55755...55817...55774...55408

Real Players left: 7164

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7.....5.....2.....3

180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41....39....41....41

170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123...132...155...137

160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93....85....93....93

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0

180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0

170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0

160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1.....0.....1.....1

150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1.....1.....0.....3

140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2.....4.....6.....2

130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22....16....27....20

120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76....60....70....65

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947.....944.....936.....960.....950

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34.....36.....28.....23.....26

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength >=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5.....10....9.....9.....8

180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19....31....36....47....50

170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79....89....103...101...152

160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93....80....85....79....82

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0

180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1.....0.....3.....1.....1

170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9.....4.....5.....5.....11

160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17....23....27....29....25

150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95....51....58....51....57

140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182...136...130...125...118

130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356...234...241...254...245

120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539...423...391...377...392

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564.....464.....423.....417.....419

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139.....99.....79.....73.....69

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength >=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6.....6.....2.....2.....2

180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16....10....14....11....17

170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97....84....65....67....68

Wasted Potential

Players who underachieved*: 302.....222.....104.....104.....120.....135.....146.....122

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA >= 150, but their PA - CA >= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.

International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905...650...536...574...630

Oldest player >= 170 CA with no caps: Oier Olzabal[31] - 176 CA

Highest CA without caps: Oier Olzabal[31] - 176 CA

England

Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3.....2.....1.....5.....5

Undeserved Callup - Four players under 160 with worst at 136.

Spain

Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2.....6.....4.....4.....4

Undeserved Callup - Two players with CAs of 136 and 147.

Italy

Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1.....2.....3.....10.....8

Undeserved Callup - Six player under 160 with worst at 132.

France

Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3.....1.....5.....7.....6

Undeserved Callup - Five players under 160 with worst at 133.

Holland

Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2.....0.....4.....1.....6

Undeserved Callup - Five players under 160 with worst at 135.

Brazil

Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4.....2.....5.....4.....6

Undeserved Callup - Three players under 160 with worst at 139.

Argentina

Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3.....1.....1.....5.....9

Undeserved Callup - Seven players under 160 with worst at 110.

Analysis

There are now 77 regen players over 170 CA despite the fact that 21-24 age group are still lacking behind. As Sir_Liam pointed out, this would indicate that players are improving at a slower pace, but over a longer period of time. For example, Dean Vaughn gained a remarkable 22 points between 26-28. However, note that he is a DC which has a later peak age.

The international scene has some oddities, but not as bad as once believed. The biggest undeserved callup is an 110 CA Argentinan. The biggest snub is 176 CA Spanish GK who is been overlooked for players with 158, 136 and 135 CA.

[SiN8]

Tracking players - Savegame 8

Lulinha - 31 yr - AMC - Roma

2007 - 104/187

2009 - 133/187

2011 - 150/187

2013 - 174/187

2015 - 176/187

2017 - 180/187

2019 - 179/187

2021 - 170/187

Still with Roma playing regularly. On the decline of his career.

Dean Vaughn - 30 yr - DC - Kansas City

2007 - 66/189

2009 - 68/189

2011 - 73/189

2013 - 82/189

2015 - 98/189

2017 - 115/189

2019 - 137/189

2021 - 137/189

Hooray, Dean finally got the move to a top European side after Lyon signed him for 900k pounds. He's also playing quite regularly too with 39 league appearances. However, it seems that he has

finally peaked.

Thiago - 30 yr - MC - Inter

2007 - 90/173

2009 - 124/173

2011 - 151/173

2013 - 165/173

2015 - 168/173

2017 - 168/173

2019 - 168/173

2021 - 162/173

After 7 seasons at Inter without a trophy, Thiago moved on to Blackburn for free. At 30, Thiago is showing signs of slowing down.

[Guest juansarlosol]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMaster2:

Found the fake.lnc file!

Go to C (or where you have installed it) -> Programs (again) -> Sports Interactive -> Football Manager 2008 -> data -> updates -> update-801 -> db -> 801 -> lnc -> all and then delete it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you sure about this?

[SiN8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eple:

I have a question that is related to something you don't seem to have brought up, apologies if I've missed it. Judging by his CA Lulinha is a top class players, but I'm curious, does his attributes reflect this if you compare him to top class players at the start of the game?

After a few seasons playing the game with the patch I've noticed that though players that start with relatively low CA and a high PA develop their CA reasonably (albeit at a slower rate than before), the points gained in CA doesn't make them much better players. Lulinha is a good example. Three seasons in in my game and he is at around 150 in CA, but in example compared to Matías Fernández (starts with CA 158) he looks noting more than a decent Championship player and his performance reflect this.

It's the same with Ever Banega. He has a CA of around 165 and judging by his CA he should be my best CM, but his attributes are much lower compared to my senior players, who have CA from 140-160. My point being, players that start the game with a high CA have a lot better skills than players that develop in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's Lulinha at 31 with 170 CA. He might have a lost some physical attributes.

[SiN8]

[ViG1980]

Great thread. I posted this issue in several threads and never got a reply. Thanks for actually statistically showing the problem!

There was the same problem in FM2007 which was acknowledged by SI and fixed in the 2nd patch I think.

I just cannot believe that old bugs come back to haunt new FM games every year. I know it's prolly hard to test a game but I played 5 seasons in my first game of FM08 and this was clear as day! I've had to stop playing until a patch sorts it out...

[kaNovi]

could you put up screenshots of those 3 players?

[kaNovi]

slow me..

[eple]

Great, SiN8.

Except for weak physical attributes, he looks like a very good player. That's a nice surprise.

[DMaster2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by juansarlosol:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMaster2:

Found the fake.lnc file!

Go to C (or where you have installed it) -> Programs (again) -> Sports Interactive -> Football Manager 2008 -> data -> updates -> update-801 -> db -> 801 -> lnc -> all and then delete it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you sure about this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Already deleted my fake.lnc.

I found it using Windows Search

[lumpa333]

Was it like this in the second betapatch too? Or is it maybe playable in that version?

[Richard76]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiN8:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That explains it. Thank you alwo. Please disregard all tests regarding Germany. My fault. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're going to have to do it all over again now.

Only kidding mate, keep up the good work this is really interesting stuff.

[koertvs]

SiN8 Your doing a great job, but I think this experiment can become even more interesting if you would go somewhat more in detail, with for instance a more detailed report about the growth of all talents at some random (top)clubs or a yearly biggest prospects watch somewhat like the one's to watch section in this experiment.

Kipfizh experiment

If he hasn't done that already, maybe Kipfizh could also help you with some advice and recommendations, because I think he is the true master of the AI experiment.

I also noticed some interesting things in the experiment. Especially the development Dean Vaughn, seemed very strange to me. I think in FM07 most players developed their technical and physical skills until they were about 24 years old, after then most of their skills would only alter a little bit each year. Mental stats however could continue to grow. I think that was a lot like in real life.

If I look at the figures in this experiment, it seems like in the new Fm there is some crazy new system. For instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. At that age players are mainly developing their 'mental skills' and I don't believe that a rise of 17 in CA is caused by the growth of his 'mental skills'. I hope he is just a bad example but I doubt that as I look at the figures of CA,PA and age of all players.

[jwarner]

The case of Dean Vaughn is interesting to me; as an American I'm biased towards Yanks in FM.

If we're comparing his story to real life, it's actually not all that unrealistic. The United States is horrifically bad at developing players, it's only recently that that fact has changed slightly. Like Vaughn, there are many young Americans with loads of potential that are being criminally underdeveloped by the youth soccer structures in place.

I wonder what would have happened to Vaughn had he been bought by a large club right after his creation, or even been drafted into MLS right away.

[r0x0r]

I think the problem is defiantely too low a starting CA to try to hide a problem...

If too many players are hitting their CA, have some players hit 21 then stall and never get any better. Have some even get worse in their mid 20s. Have injuries, personality and other factors more likely to cause a player's career to derail.

But for the love of god, don't make sure that i can't have a team of 20 year olds in 2030. I love the Arsenal way, and while i could still do this, i twouldn't feel the same if they only became any good at 26, played for 3-4 years then left before they lost value. I want to have them in the team from anything from 18-23 until they hit 29/30.

[Richard76]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by r0x0r:

I think the problem is defiantely too low a starting CA to try to hide a problem...

If too many players are hitting their CA, have some players hit 21 then stall and never get any better. Have some even get worse in their mid 20s. Have injuries, personality and other factors more likely to cause a player's career to derail.

But for the love of god, don't make sure that i can't have a team of 20 year olds in 2030. I love the Arsenal way, and while i could still do this, i twouldn't feel the same if they only became any good at 26, played for 3-4 years then left before they lost value. I want to have them in the team from anything from 18-23 until they hit 29/30. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just hoping this is more of a problem with the AI player development and this won't happen to my players with great coaches/training facilities & first team football.

[fabioke]

This thread is one of the better threads. Because the Most important part of football manager is the AI I hope that SI is reading this to So they can fix this problem I prefer A little bit more talents then less. Thank you very much for your research

[The Only Legal Ganja Man]

From reading this thread and from experiances in my own game, I think it could be a combination of a problem of under-development at smaller clubs, and bigger clubs not scouting out future stars for their CA is too low...

For example, In my game I am playing as Havant & Waterlooville in the BSP, all my first team I have signed have a PA of 160+, and all have a CA of between 70-100 (Ages from 17-20). However, even after 1 or 2 seasons playing most games in the league, none of the CAs have really moved (Maybe fluctuated a few points but nothing significant) - And, more interestingly, no team above league 1 level has spotted them and come in for a bid, which would happen a lot in previous FMs...

Maybe the low CA is preventing big teams taking a gamble on untested talent, but conversely, the CA is not being improved at all by these lower league teams

[uclazy31]

Having read the thread and based on my own developmental issue i think there may be a couple of reason for a lack of development that have gone unnoticed. For one i cant transfer 18 or younger players to develop them at my own facilities. The horrible players who have come through my youth system reach about 100 pa at age 18, but they have to stop there because they cant go higher. If i could buy players at a younger age this would almost certainly allow me to get them to a 110-120 level by age 18. This is what happened to the american defender. I know because i always buy the best american youth to try to develop them so america might eventually win a world cup. He could not go anywhere until 18 and nobody develops in the pdl or usl teams in fm08.

Someone earlier mentioned the loan issues. I agree totally my players do not improve when they go on loan and in many cases actually regress, even when i send them to decent feederclubs.

I do notice that the players i play in my own squad do develop into who they are supposed to be for the most part, but only if they play all the time.

I think that determination is way too important in setermining how good players will become. i use that as a baseline when scouting players those with 15+ are sure to reach their potential, at least that is my own conclusion.

[mattyspurs76]

what about training, with the right training schedule would they be better plyers sooner?

[uclazy31]

i use the tugs training and i have the 7 star coaches and state of the art facilities. i dont think that is my issue.

or is your point that for some reason the ai schedules are not good?

[Silverx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">or instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luca Toni?

[koertvs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">or instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luca Toni? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is Luca Toni so much better at scoring goals, shooting on target, heading etc. then 4 years back? I doubt it.

If you look at his statistics he scored much throughout his entire career, and at Fiorentina he started scoring even more.

But at Fiorentina, he had also a better team around him. I think that, that, combined with some more consistency and confidence, could very well be the difference between 15 or 30 goals per season.

The fact that he is well known for only the last years, doesn't mean his technical skill was much lesser before that.

[lpx88]

Classic thread.

[modster76]

ran a holiday game untill 2032 and the regens where all good in respect to the club/division in which they played al though i did notice that average match ratings where well down to what they are at the start of the game

[ScottehFTM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. At that age players are mainly developing their 'mental skills' and I don't believe that a rise of 17 in CA is caused by the growth of his 'mental skills'. I hope he is just a bad example but I doubt that as I look at the figures of CA,PA and age of all players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He may just be a bad egg, but if he isn't then it may not neccisarily be all that crazy. Maybe CA now takes into account mental stats more so, and in the case of a defender, he's going being improving all the way up to 30, or until his physical attributes actually begin to drop.

I think it even states in the game that Defenders peak between 27-32 or something? I can't remember what it says exactly...

[mimland]

I'm in 2016 on my game. After my chairman decided to sell my goalkeeper I have been on the hunt for a new one. Scouted every EU national goalkeeper that I could get on a free and noticed that many of the regens have decent stats, not real good but decent. However the majority seem to severly lack in communication and aerial ability, not sure this has to do with age but very few got a number over 10 in any of these areas.

[Qceng]

Someone above mentioned the 'Arsenal way' - this ain't gonna happen in fm2008 after 3-4 years. CA starting point is too low. The only way to do it is to save just before the regen creation date and keep trying until you get a decent regen. Out of about 20-25 goes you will eventually get a Kroos/Banega style regen (75-85 CA at 15.0) but it's a real pain.

[WoIfsong]

I am currently in 2018 with Roma and I have to agree that youth development needs a lot of improvement. This is mainly due to, as many mentioned, the poor physical stats of the newgens. I have been scouting and scouting for the past 5 years (game time ) and none of the new gens meet my criteria for DCs (Acceleration and pace > 13, jumping > 16) nor my criteria for STs (Jumping > 17, Acceleration and pace > 14). And every team in the world goes downwards in terms of player standards as the game goes on. I have Nazarith as my top striker (only a

-9 striker, not a newgen) and I could not find a single newgen that could match his abilities according to my 20 JA and 20 JP scouts.

This is problematic and has ruined the enjoyment of career games, because when I see my squad getting older and older I can not find decent replacements.

I hope this will be tweaked in 8.0.2.

[Rickooko]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Riz:

Just because we don't reply to every thread does not mean it is ignored. Especially if it is constructive and makes good reading

Our testers have done similar analysis on the player progression during testing as seen here and will continue to do so in the future. It is indeed good to get more opinions on the player development matters and especially opinions with factual support as well. We will be looking at both our internal analysis as well as feedback such as this thread as we continue to finetune things in the code.

Balancing such a complex part of the game as player progression is not something that can be done overnight as the development of a player is affected by a lot of variables (clubs, coaches, injuries etc.) outside of just the starting ability and potential. Naturally the best we can aim for is to try and make the future generations of players in the game reflect the starting database as closely as we can. And like I said above, we do make similar internal analysis as well over the long term player development and we will continue to finetune things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like the problem is very complicated...

I do appreciate SI working on this area but i am pretty worry about that. For long the regen/newgen players system is crucial to long term game but after 10 versions of cm/fm the problem still exist. I start to think if it is ever possible to really "fix" this problem??

I really wish SI could improve it in some way with patch 8.0.1. (But sadly, we better dont expect much from a patch for such complicated issue)

[Rickooko]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:

I really wish SI could improve it in some way with patch 8.0.1. (But sadly, we better dont expect much from a patch for such complicated issue) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should be patch 8.0.2

[dudubrdx]

is it me or was the regen development much better on the original fm2008 or on the beta patches?

I still have the first beta, which had in my opinion the best match engine ever, and i'm really close to switchng back to it, but i don't want to ruin my 2020 savegame...

[mg9106]

this is real interesting, ive only just started a new game with the 8.0.1 patch, because i didnt want to install it while my game with Hull was running. I played for 15 years and didnt notice anything like this...and I thought a patch was meant to fix things...