Suggestion: Improvements to Manager Profiles/Attributes

I’ve noticed a few posts over the last few days talking about our manager profiles and the need for more attributes and personalisation of our in game representation. I love these types of features and decided to draw up a new manager attributes system that I think would add a lot to the game and perhaps go some way in shaping how we manage as well.

I've based my new manager profile on four areas that I think are essential in molding a manager; relationships, technical ability, personality and style. Most of these do exactly what they say on the tin, but I’ve given a broader explanation on the more ambiguous titles.

Manager Relationships

Squad

Media/Press

Board

Staff

Technical

Tactical Knowledge

Tactical – Ability to change tactics to the benefit of the team, mid match etc.

Judging PA

Judging Ability

Preferred Formation

Preferred Style

Attacking – How good your teams have been in an attacking sense based on goals scored and assists throughout your career.

Defending – How good your teams have been defensively, based on clean sheets and goals conceded throughout your career.

Squad Development – Your ability to improve a squad of players and their league position, Uefa standings etc.

Youth Development – http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=33654

Training

Manager Personality

Adaptability

Determination

Loyalty

Reputation

Ambition – Based on progression through clubs and reputation jumps etc i.e. moving from Barcelona to Wigan would see the attribute drop, whereas applying for Barcelona while Wigan manager would see it increase.

Managerial Style

Man Management

Level of Discipline

Hands on Approach

Dom Player Bias

Financial Control

I welcome all suggestions and constructive criticism, I think this could add a lot to the game and that managerial attributes should play as much a part in being considered for a job, as reputation.

I think it would be nice to have a little more detail with regard to your manager stats, however i feel that your suggestions may be a little too much for my liking.

Similarly, i feel that some of your suggestions would be very hard to quantify for a human user, e.g. JPA and JPP, for which the user has to generally rely on scouts (well for JPP anyway) and "Tactics" i feel would be a tricky one for the game to figure out if you've actually done anything right.

Edit - i realised this sounded quite negative - this is a direction i would like the game to go

I agree dude. I think what you've proposed would be a great addition to the game, and "Manager Sculpting" as I'd like to call it could really reflect how you play FM, and perhaps even help in getting jobs in-game, or even hinder you. (For Example, Arsenal wouldn't hire you if you were a slow playing 5-3-2 kind of manager). Great post.

yeah, kinda agree, would like something inbetween your suggestions, and the current. i think if too much is introduced too soon then the chance of anomolies and problems dramatically increase. some gooduns in there though!

and perhaps even help in getting jobs in-game, or even hinder you. (For Example, Arsenal wouldn't hire you if you were a slow playing 5-3-2 kind of manager).

Indeedy, atm it seems to be based on reputation as in a previous game I got hired by Barcelona from Bayern Munich, depsite being quite a defensive manager, in 5 years the highest i'd scored in a 34 game season was 61. Yes i'd won the league each time because my defence was brilliant, but I don't think that type of football is what Barcelona fans would want to see, trophies or no trophies.

totally agree to nomis07

Ched,

I agree some of them may be too hard to implement and if they were implemented might be hard to control. I disagree with the JPA/JPP one though, I very rarely use the scouts other than to unmask attributes so it is based on my own judgement, I think most managers IRL rely on scout information for youth team players yet they take the plaudits when it comes to it.

I might be in the minority here but I honestly don't care one way or the other what my manager profile is. It fascinates me how people can become so involved with a computer game that they associate themselves with a character even if it is supposed to represent them. It must make for a totally different gaming experience.

I'm not knocking those who do or the suggestion for making it more complex. I just find it strange (not in a 'you're a weirdo' insulting way but in a 'I just don't get it' way ). To each their own I suppose. Although admittedly if it did have a major in game effect I probably would pay more attention but at the same time I could see it annoying the hell out of me.

Like with your Bayern to Barcelona example. It would be very irritating if I could never get a top job because the top teams are hard coded to prefer hiring an attacking type of manager yet my profile says I'm cautious, especially if my tactics aren't actually in my opinion cautious and I don't 100% understand how the game generates that description and thus feel helpless to control it. In your opinion that might be realistic but for me it would ruin the experience.

This also brings up another issue and the potential for bugs. How exactly does a team's preferred manager type get coded? Is it fixed or does it change to reflect their situation? If it does change then how exactly do you code it to change? For example imagine Man Utd are set to adventurous manager type preferred but at some point get relegated and their manager gets sacked. Say I'm managing a team that I've brought from League 1 to the Premiership where I've pushed for European place. I feel like I've stagnated and have no room for growth so decide I'd like the challenge of bringing Man Utd back to glory. But because my style is 'defensive' they decide to hire a manager with an 'attacking' style despite the fact he's never had a team promoted and has been mediocre at best.

If it does get coded to reflect a club's situation then it may well become too deterministic. Then there's the question of how it evolves. The starting point as inputted by a researcher will inevitably affect this. Given my age the best example of this I can think of is Arsenal. Arsenal were very successful under George Graham but they weren't exactly renowned for their attacking flair. With a deterministic code you would then possibly have Arsenal preferring a defensive minded coach because it has brought them success hence no job for Arsene Wenger in an FM world coded like this. The point I am trying to make is it is a hell of alot more organic and complex in the real world than 'Barcelona prefer attacking football hence hire an attacking coach'. To me trying to code this would lead to unnecessary rigidity in terms of where managers can manage, either AI or Human.

Then what happens if a manager changes his style? I can't comment on AI managers as I don't even know if they do this, but what about a human manager. What if I get hired by a 'defensive' club partly because I'm a 'defensive' manager. What happens if I decide to change my tactics and my profile shifts to 'attacking'? Will the board then sack me because I no longer fit their preferred manager type? It would have to be pretty well tuned to avoid the type of effects that have been seen with the board confidence module.

Then there's the redundancy question. What happens when there are no managers available that fit the required club type? Does it remove it from the algorithm and defer back to the current system?

I can just see it creating frustration that in some respects is unnecessary.

Unlike Ched I refuse to apologise for being negative

As a long-term roadmap, I actually like the idea.

Relationships - I think that "Relationships" is missing a point: "Supporters". I think that you can have a positive relationship with the board but a negative relationship with the fans .. and will be more likely to as boards become more complicated. For example, if a board's directive to me were "Make a profit", the fans might get angry at me for selling star players, never winning anything, etc., while the board might be very happy at their ever-increasing bank balance.

Technical - Obviously, the things you are looking at in the "Technical" category are a long way off .. the game doesn't even recognize my "Preferred Formation" after years of using the same circle positions for every match (even if my tactics are different under the hood, the formation should be easy enough to pick up).

Judging Ability / Potential - I'm starting to think that I'd like to see this developed. First, its a big advantage for AI clubs that their manager has potentially usable attributes there, and I don't. Second, I'd really like for the action of "Viewing a Match" to result in unmasking fog of war for the players involved and possibly to increasing the club's scouting knowledge of those players. I'm not sure if it makes sense to wind up with a "Scout Report" filed "In my name", or how that should look .. but I'd like it to have an effect.

Squad Development - Not sure what you mean by this? Ability to improve a squad? How is that different from "Reputation", really? .. I'm almost wondering if there need to be a couple different hidden stats which generate a "Known For" reputation. For example, some managers might be recognized as "Promotion Experts". Some managers might be known as "Relegation Escape Artists". Some managers might be known for their Cup runs. Some managers might be known for developing young talent. So .. this might become a "Manager Style" item.

Training - This is another spot where I'd like to be able to "put myself to work" as a first-team coach. Its not a big deal for the Manchester Uniteds of the world, but when you're struggling in the LLM arena, it would make a huge difference to have even an all-10's-quality coach available.

Loyalty - I'd like to see this split into two different categories, "Loyalty to players", and "Loyalty to clubs". They are certainly different things!

Ambition - I'd say that this ought to be more impacted by the things you do in-game: for example, those media comments about winning the title, winning a match, etc... the quality of players we "declare interest" in .. how ambitious our pre-match team talks are .. etc.

Managerial Style - Your items here would go a long way. For example, a Discipline rating of 15 (Strict) might be okay, but if you got it up to 20 (Draconian), then players might be afraid of joining your club .. or nervous if/when you took over a club with that reputation.

- - - - - - - -

Hiring Decision - isuckatfm, I can see your fears, but I think that the hiring decision could be made to *weight* these items, and maybe even to weight them differently for different chairmen.

Assume that this module was "Done right" and let's look at a couple of examples.

Scenario 1: First, the defensive-minded manager applying to Barcelona. The incumbent Barca chairman has a high affinity to his club, so he values "matches club style" highly. The applicant's "defensive" nature counts as points against him .. but his high reputation, his Catalan nationality, and his reputation for club loyalty and ambition are all major points in favor. It turns out that he "out-points" any other applicant, so he gets the job.

The fans are outraged by his defensive mentality, so they dislike him right off the bat. However, he has a chance to win them over with success in both the league and Europe .. and if he can do so, then his defensive style isn't an issue. Of course, should he ever hit a rough patch, the media might start up with the "Need a more attacking-style manager to get the most out of the team.." bit again. Or maybe they even criticize him occasionally for pedestrian 1-0 wins.

As a defensive-minded manager myself, its always struck me as a bit odd that the fans never had a problem with my succession of 0-0, 1-0, 0-1, and 1-1 games, with the odd 2-0 thrown in when the counter-attack works late.

Scenario 2: Our defense-minded manager applies to Barca. The incumbent Barca chairman has a high affinity to his club, so he values "matches club style" highly. The applicant's "defensive" nature counts as points against him .. but his high reputation, his Catalan nationality, and his reputation for club loyalty and ambition are all points in favor. Unluckily, he loses enough points for being "defensive" that a different applicant "out-points" him.

The Barca chairman tells him "We wanted to go with a more attack-minded manager," so he gets an explanation for why he wasn't hired! Wow! That's a feature, not a bug!

Two years later, as the club continue to struggle, both the manager and the chairman are ousted. Failure at the Nou Camp isn't an option for either .. The new chairman comes in, and has less "affinity for club" and more "ambition".

Our manager applies again. The "defensive" mentality doesn't cost him many points with this chairman, and his high reputation and high ambition stats are major points in his favor! This time, he gets the job!

Again, the fans are outraged, but c'est la vie!

Scenario 3: After achieving promotions from the Conference and League Two with one club, then from League One and the Championship into the Premiership with a second club, our manager has become recognized as a "Promotion Expert". He's built a fair reputation, is known for his defensive style, and especially for his ambition and his control over finances.

Manchester United have been run into the ground by the AI .. badly in debt, they've collapsed to the Championship, and with the players on hand, another relegation might be a possibility. They're looking for a two-year plan: safely mid-table the first year, promotion to the Premiership the second year .. but the chairman is smart enough to recognize that the team's biggest need *right now* is on the financial side, not on the pitch.

Our manager applies. His "Control Over Finances" is the major selling point, putting him head and shoulders above the other applicants. His reputation may not be as high as Man U would like, but its high enough to keep him above some less fiscally responsible applicants. His ambition is a big point in favor, as is the Style marked "Promotion Expert", which dovetails precisely with the chairman's goals. His "defensive style" isn't ideal for the club, but he does run a "4-4-2", which fits the club's style .. when its all tallied out, he's got more points than any other applicant. He gets the job - and a two-year contract at best.

If he's able to turn around the financial situation and earn promotion, he will have scored such major points with the chairman that he's likely to pick up a contract extension .. even if the fans are unhappy with his style of play, his failure to earn promotion his first year in charge, and the club's quick exit from the F.A. Cup last year.

Over the next three years, he qualifies for the UEFA Cup the first year, the Champions League the next, and in the third year wins the Premiership and the F.A. Cup - a double! He's won the fans over with his success .. the chairman loves him .. and he winds up managing Man U for the next ten years, becoming a club legend.

By his fifteenth year in charge, Man U are famed for their "determined defense", and when he finally steps down, both the chairman and the fans are looking for somebody to uphold the tradition of crunching tackles, great 'keeping, and clean sheets ...

Scenario 4: After earning a reputation for defensive football, our manager applies for the Bayern Munich position. Bayern love defensive football, so they hire him.

For the first time in his managerial career, he has money to burn, and he goes all-out for attacking players, bringing in several creative Brazilians, two Dutch attackers, a creative Portugese winger, and a legendary Argentine playmaker. With all the creativity at his disposal, he reworks his tactics to get the most out of attack.

If the team wins the Bundesliga and German Cup in his first year, but the average scores are something like 4-2, 5-1, etc, and the second year, he adds the Champions League trophy to the cabinet ... hey, the fans are going to love him, and they adopt the attacking play with open arms. The board will put aside any issues that they have with defense .. the ends have justified the means.

If, on the other hand, he winds up struggling, interspersing 5-1 victories with 2-4 defeats and 3-3 draws .. he's going to discover that he has a fairly short leash. The fact that his style of play doesn't match the club's and he isn't succeeding .. well, when he does get the sack, he might get a message like "He hasn't turned out to be the manager we thought we were getting", or "Want to get back to the club's roots".

- - - - - - - -

Again, making the assumption that its all going perfectly .. well, we know that it rarely does.

But, I do think that its, long-term, the right direction to go!

Call me fickle, but my perceptions about this have very much been those of the latest poster. But Amaroq, that's an excellent well-thought out post with some brilliant ideas (although I'm sure you didn't need me to tell you this). I like the idea of some sort of basic scoring system for manager appointment, and in fact your scenarios have got me relishing the prospect. I have to say, though Nomis07, a more detailed user profile is the way to go. Basically, we need to be able to be judged on the same algorithms as AI managers are judged, and we can't do that without some useful and responsive attributes. Although isuckatfm mentions the limitations of it, Amaroq's laid out a great idea. I think what we really want is a a game that seems to know what we're doing and reacts to us.

Amaroq

Excellent post as always and for those who enjoy the role playing elements fantastic. You almost have me thinking I should really try to suspend my disbelief and become more involved...........a few more years of heavy drinking alongside my Celtic complexion and I'll have the Fergie cheeks to match my Fergie style hair dryer team talks

I'm going to look at it from the perspective of the more casual gamer rather than those looking for the all rounded simulation.

The Barca chairman tells him "We wanted to go with a more attack-minded manager," so he gets an explanation for why he wasn't hired! Wow! That's a feature, not a bug!

That's a tip of the iceberg explanation. A gamer who is calculated in how they play this will not just think of real life and go 'Oh well, it's a simulation and could well happen in the real world'. They'll wonder how exactly is attack minded defined. If as this forum often suggests they don't actually bother to read the manual they'll be side swiped. What if their definition of attacking doesn't match up to how the code defines it? 'I push my full backs on, I push 3 midfielders on and attack with 7 players at a time yet because my mentalities are set to just higher than normal I'm not deemed an attacking coach?'.

Then there's what you choose to define the type of coach. My previous point illustrates the potential for problems with using actual tactical settings as the determining variable without exact explanation of where the influence lies specifically. Now what about defining it as you and Nomis07 suggested via goals scored or goals conceded. Let's say I'm a top team and every other team parks the bus against me. As before I push as many players forward as is reasonable, in fact all but the GK and the CBs. By my real life footballing definition I am playing attacking by committing men forward. But because the opposition is playing so defensively I'm barely scraping by with 1 goal victories. Yes that may be due to my tactical deficiencies but those are tactical deficiencies based on FM, not your everyday understanding of what constitutes attacking in football e.g. committing men forward. So I'm playing attacking football but I just can't buy a goal.

What happens if my confidence section then says 'the board and fans feel you should be playing in a more adventurous manner'? I sit there, shake my head and scream at the screen 'I am playing attacking football you plonkers' or I come on here and make a thread titled 'WTF?!?!? How is this NOT attacking football'.

Now what if you judge it by shots on goal, do it match by match and have a cumulative measure? Again you can see where specific tactical settings may well skew this definition beyond an individual's understanding of what attacking football is. I commit men forward but I play slow, probing football. Sure I get less shots than if I set my players to long shots often but I'm still playing attacking football but of a slightly different variety. You can already see elements of the confusion this can cause in looking at the match confidence screen as well as various postings when the demo came out and when the full version came out. People felt the 'logic' of the code was illogical. And if your typical football fan who plays this game feels the fan's reaction is illogical then you know there is an issue.

So the purist will accept being fired for not having the sufficient style points as part of the game as it is a simulation, but a gamer whose spent hours on reaching the point where he can finally apply to Club A (part of his overall goal, the club he supports) and then gets knocked back based on a mechanic that is not fully understood or explained. That's a different story. Yes at the moment reputation can still be hard to figure out in terms of it's impact on job applications, but at the same time it's not rocket science. Win matches, succeed in competitions => increase your reputation => apply for better jobs. Simple and less likely to frustrate. Now I can imagine the purist reading this and thinking 'they should go buy FIFA Manager then' but from a business perspective I don't honestly know to what extent this may impact on general sales. It's where the marketing department will earn it's bread (while at the same time frustrating the programmers with some pie chart that illustrates how the chosen demographic won't react well to this new element )

With the right weighting as you say all would be fine but it's not just about the weighting, but also the text generated by this weighting, not only when getting fired but also rejected from jobs. As long as the text is descriptive enough to leave the gamer thinking 'I might not like it but it makes sense' then you're good to go. The more 'unrealistic' an event feels the more disgruntled a gamer will feel. But there in lies the crux. When definitions diverge trouble ensues. My chairman sold a £7m player for £12m. Some responders see the logic in it, others don't. The coders see it working as intended, the gamer sees it as a bug. We've seen the fairly regular flow of threads about this. But it's not a gamebreaker. Something like this when it goes wrong could be.

I realise how horribly negative I'm being and also that no game will ever evolve unless the developers take some risks. So as you say long term, fully evolved and working like clockwork it would be an excellent addition for those who seek a more rounded and interactive role playing aspect. But playing devil's advocate I just see so many ways that this could lead to frustration which surpasses the board confidence and transfer system combined. It would be a very bumpy road and really would test the loyalty of FM's customer base.

I feel like the prophet of doom. Just picture me with warts on a disfigured face, a hunchback and one glass eye shrieking 'No good will come of this I tell thee!!!'

at the mental image.

Seriously, you do raise very good points regarding using these items in the managerial hiring/firing decisions. If we were a design team, I'd be recommending baby steps along the way, maybe building out Nomis' original idea, and watching for bugs or inaccuracies that come up along the way for a couple years before starting to tie it in to a deeper level like managerial hirings .. or players being excited to come play for you .. or afraid of coming to play for you .. or whatever.

Before we could get to that point, I think we would need to answer your questions about "How does the user know what constitutes 'attacking'?"

I'm glad you're keeping the casual gamer in mind - as you know, I'm of the opinion that we need to make sure that we keep the game accessible to new users so that the fanbase continues to grow.

God I love threads like this - absolutely top-notch serious debate.

I've posted frequently to argue a case for more in-depth managerial personality profoundly affecting the game, but here I don't think I can add anything to Amaroq's analysis.

Brilliant stuff all-round

This thread seems to have died a bit of a death, but i'm giving it a bump in the hope that the new release will fuel the debate a little. FM09 has improved manager attributes etc a little, but I still think there is room for improvement.

Some really interesting points of view here. Personally i love the idea and think Amaroq is spot on. FM of the future is really going to need this sort of thing. Manager style does influence hiring decisions, and supporter/media/chairman opinions in real life, and would add a great deal of depth to the game.

One thing I would like to maybe see is the ability to add more than one favoured club, and hated clubs as well.

And also being able to add more than one other nationality, I realise some people could use it to "cheat" by giving themselves other nationality of all the powerhouse football nations to help attract players and start with extra built-in knowledge, but that's up to them. I'm sure a few FM players out there could hold three or more nationalities, through grandparents, residency or whatever.

I love these kind of ideas. I've always been somewhat of a roleplayer in FM - I don't actually go and write in-character stories or anything, but I always have a background to "me" in mind, and I try to act in the way I would expect my in-game character to.

I'm not sure how this thread passed me by when it was originally posted, but I'm glad it's been bumped because it's a good one with some high quality contributions. Unfortunately, because I'm at work, I concentrate enough to form the kind of response I want to right now. When I get home tonight, I will probably do that. For now, I'll just say that I definitely approve of the thinking in the original post, and, as always, with much of what Amaroq had to say.

Not a fan of the hard coding stuff but I feel the Manager needs some background added. Whether this is made-up or chosen by you is optional and up for discussion but its a better option than the current. Sunday Footballer or International Player. Every Manager has either been a coach, assistant or scout or something and this would greatly improve the info on ourselves (The Manager).

Brilliant thread with well thought-out points from both sides, I think that Amaroq has made some very interesting points but that isuckatfm is right that there would be a danger of isolating and even alienating the more casual user. Look at the up-roar over removing the arrows!! It would be great to see more detail of exactly how your personality & abilities match-up against AI managers and also how you develope as a manager throughout your career. Something I have always felt would be a nice addition is for you as a manager to be able to add a couple of preferences regarding Players & Managers (past & present) & Team that you admire/like along with those that you hate/don't rate. I personally (especially with the arrival of 3D) like to see my team playing attractive attacking football but will/do change to a 'kill game' strategy to hold onto a lead for the last 10 minutes on occasion, it would be how the coding handled this sort of thing that would be interesting and is where I agree with isuckatfm. However as Amaroq suggests fans will/are willing to accept a different style of playing IRL if it is successful (although the Chairman may not!) see Chelsea - Mourinho as an example.

However as Amaroq suggests fans will/are willing to accept a different style of playing IRL if it is successful (although the Chairman may not!) see Chelsea - Mourinho as an example.

That depends on the fans though, Chelsea is probably a pretty bad example considering what a lot of football fans think of the club and the fans. If you take Del Bosque at Real, to a lesser extent Capello, as an example, you'll see that success is not the be all and end all for some fans.

That depends on the fans though, Chelsea is probably a pretty bad example considering what a lot of football fans think of the club and the fans. If you take Del Bosque at Real, to a lesser extent Capello, as an example, you'll see that success is not the be all and end all for some fans.

True, although I think that with Real (as with Inter) it had more to do with the lack of success in the Champions League! I suppose that there are a few clubs where even if you were winning the domestic league but not playing attractive football then it wouldn't be enough. Some Arsenal fans are not happy and are questioning Wenger's position as they aren't getting the results despite playing football the way they like yet under George Graham they were happy to be known as boring boring Arsenal!

I would love more detail about me as a manager - after all, I'm the one playing the game! I'm sure some of this wouldn't be too hard to implement.

Many good ideas. I remember back in FM2005, that favourite players were automatically added to your manager profile. This feature was then removed which i always felt was a shame although there was a problem of players being added that weren't actually your favourite! But if the option to remove players from the list was included, it would overcome this problem as well as stopping people from adding any players they wanted manually to gain some advantage. It would also mean that any favourite players would be gained through in-game mechanisms.

Some good ideas in this thread.

small Mac:

Yeah did trouble me that. Wanted a certain player to be on my favourite player list but instead had someone else and couldn't get the one I wanted on there.

Would be nice to have some attributes that aren't purely cosmetic, certain Chairmen bringing in a particular style of manager (based on your attributes) would be cool.

I remember back in the days that we would choose a personality out of a list of 12 (or something like that).

I would always choose rash, thus making Cantona immediately mad at me...

Good old CM93 - I always chose Confident!

Alot of these ideas would take a long time to implement and work well. But in in-game editors you can see your stats, some of them change from the default over your career so I would like to see more stuff in our profile.

i think your bang on there nomis

Many good ideas. I remember back in FM2005, that favourite players were automatically added to your manager profile. This feature was then removed which i always felt was a shame although there was a problem of players being added that weren't actually your favourite! But if the option to remove players from the list was included, it would overcome this problem as well as stopping people from adding any players they wanted manually to gain some advantage. It would also mean that any favourite players would be gained through in-game mechanisms.

small Mac:

Yeah did trouble me that. Wanted a certain player to be on my favourite player list but instead had someone else and couldn't get the one I wanted on there.

I'm a bit late but I was going to post something similar on the wishlist thread when I found this.

I've seen a number of players who are unflashy but utterly reliable and key to a club's progress but don't get any credit so being able to choose own favourite personnel would be good.

@small Mac - don't see a problem with this. If that's how someone wants to play the game why shouldn't they? It's not difficult to 'arrange' things to your advantage as things stand and in the end it's only between them and the AI - nobody's cheating other players. And if you choose to play by a set of rules it's clearly no problem.

Anyway, it's easily sorted because if you're not a player's / staffer's fave it's unlikely you're going to tempt them away just because you've listed them as a fave.

I wholeheartedly agree this part of the game could be improved.

I wholeheartedly agree this part of the game could be improved.

Gilles Domoraud! I remember managing you at Aris in FM06!

Is that what happened to my career?

I'm a bit late but I was going to post something similar on the wishlist thread when I found this.

I've seen a number of players who are unflashy but utterly reliable and key to a club's progress but don't get any credit so being able to choose own favourite personnel would be good.

@small Mac - don't see a problem with this. If that's how someone wants to play the game why shouldn't they? It's not difficult to 'arrange' things to your advantage as things stand and in the end it's only between them and the AI - nobody's cheating other players. And if you choose to play by a set of rules it's clearly no problem.

Anyway, it's easily sorted because if you're not a player's / staffer's fave it's unlikely you're going to tempt them away just because you've listed them as a fave.

Personally i don't really see the point in adding favoured personnel to your managers profile if it has no in game effects. Sure, it might be nice from a cosmetic point of view to add your favourite players willy nilly, but if it doesn't affect the game in anyway then its something that wouldn't interest me tbh.

So that's why i would like to see favoured personnel added through in-game mechanisms and to actually see positive/negative effects of these listings. Even f you're not one of the player's fav personnel, maybe they'll player better for you because they see you appreciate their talent, or maybe they'll play worse because they know you won't drop them etc.

Overall what i'm saying is that if favoured personnel were re-introduced to your manager profile, i would like it to be of use and so done in a realistic way. That's not to say i would be against simply adding as little/many players to the fav list as you want if it had no effects, but personally it would be a feature that i wouldn't gain much benefit or enjoyment from. Maybe that would put me in the minority, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter.

I’ve noticed a few posts over the last few days talking about our manager profiles and the need for more attributes and personalisation of our in game representation. I love these types of features and decided to draw up a new manager attributes system that I think would add a lot to the game and perhaps go some way in shaping how we manage as well.

I've based my new manager profile on four areas that I think are essential in molding a manager; relationships, technical ability, personality and style. Most of these do exactly what they say on the tin, but I’ve given a broader explanation on the more ambiguous titles.

Manager Relationships

Squad

Media/Press

Board

Staff

Technical

Tactical Knowledge

Tactical – Ability to change tactics to the benefit of the team, mid match etc.

Judging PA

Judging Ability

Preferred Formation

Preferred Style

Attacking – How good your teams have been in an attacking sense based on goals scored and assists throughout your career.

Defending – How good your teams have been defensively, based on clean sheets and goals conceded throughout your career.

Squad Development – Your ability to improve a squad of players and their league position, Uefa standings etc.

Youth Development – http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=33654

Training

Manager Personality

Adaptability

Determination

Loyalty

Reputation

Ambition – Based on progression through clubs and reputation jumps etc i.e. moving from Barcelona to Wigan would see the attribute drop, whereas applying for Barcelona while Wigan manager would see it increase.

Managerial Style

Man Management

Level of Discipline

Hands on Approach

Dom Player Bias

Financial Control

I welcome all suggestions and constructive criticism, I think this could add a lot to the game and that managerial attributes should play as much a part in being considered for a job, as reputation.

Good idea. I think at the start of the game, when you are adding a manager, you should beable to say what languages you can speak and who your favoured personal are etc

Just to be able to tell people that my name was attached to this thread, I'd like to say that this is far and away the best discussion I have seen in all 3 years that I have been checking out this forum. And, of course, the obligatory cliché of "TG! KUTGW!" is well deserved. Cheers!

What an outstanding thread.

I agree with Amaroq and feel that we should introduce an internal system of SI knighthoods; arise Sir Amaroq of FMshire, you sire speak truths.

No, knighthoods would be an ego booster, nothing more. If you are that high of yourself, nickname yourself Sir whatever.

No, knighthoods would be an ego booster, nothing more. If you are that high of yourself, nickname yourself Sir whatever.

Er, I think I've missed your point. What was it? I suggested knighthoods purely as a bit of fun and as a metaphor to celebrate a truly outstanding thread; maybe I got carried away. Repeat, I'm not serious about SI knighthoods but I do love an indepth and well-constructed debate.

As a long-term roadmap, I actually like the idea.

Relationships - I think that "Relationships" is missing a point: "Supporters". I think that you can have a positive relationship with the board but a negative relationship with the fans .. and will be more likely to as boards become more complicated. For example, if a board's directive to me were "Make a profit", the fans might get angry at me for selling star players, never winning anything, etc., while the board might be very happy at their ever-increasing bank balance.

Technical - Obviously, the things you are looking at in the "Technical" category are a long way off .. the game doesn't even recognize my "Preferred Formation" after years of using the same circle positions for every match (even if my tactics are different under the hood, the formation should be easy enough to pick up).

Judging Ability / Potential - I'm starting to think that I'd like to see this developed. First, its a big advantage for AI clubs that their manager has potentially usable attributes there, and I don't. Second, I'd really like for the action of "Viewing a Match" to result in unmasking fog of war for the players involved and possibly to increasing the club's scouting knowledge of those players. I'm not sure if it makes sense to wind up with a "Scout Report" filed "In my name", or how that should look .. but I'd like it to have an effect.

Squad Development - Not sure what you mean by this? Ability to improve a squad? How is that different from "Reputation", really? .. I'm almost wondering if there need to be a couple different hidden stats which generate a "Known For" reputation. For example, some managers might be recognized as "Promotion Experts". Some managers might be known as "Relegation Escape Artists". Some managers might be known for their Cup runs. Some managers might be known for developing young talent. So .. this might become a "Manager Style" item.

Training - This is another spot where I'd like to be able to "put myself to work" as a first-team coach. Its not a big deal for the Manchester Uniteds of the world, but when you're struggling in the LLM arena, it would make a huge difference to have even an all-10's-quality coach available.

Loyalty - I'd like to see this split into two different categories, "Loyalty to players", and "Loyalty to clubs". They are certainly different things!

Ambition - I'd say that this ought to be more impacted by the things you do in-game: for example, those media comments about winning the title, winning a match, etc... the quality of players we "declare interest" in .. how ambitious our pre-match team talks are .. etc.

Managerial Style - Your items here would go a long way. For example, a Discipline rating of 15 (Strict) might be okay, but if you got it up to 20 (Draconian), then players might be afraid of joining your club .. or nervous if/when you took over a club with that reputation.

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Hiring Decision - isuckatfm, I can see your fears, but I think that the hiring decision could be made to *weight* these items, and maybe even to weight them differently for different chairmen.

Assume that this module was "Done right" and let's look at a couple of examples.

Scenario 1: First, the defensive-minded manager applying to Barcelona. The incumbent Barca chairman has a high affinity to his club, so he values "matches club style" highly. The applicant's "defensive" nature counts as points against him .. but his high reputation, his Catalan nationality, and his reputation for club loyalty and ambition are all major points in favor. It turns out that he "out-points" any other applicant, so he gets the job.

The fans are outraged by his defensive mentality, so they dislike him right off the bat. However, he has a chance to win them over with success in both the league and Europe .. and if he can do so, then his defensive style isn't an issue. Of course, should he ever hit a rough patch, the media might start up with the "Need a more attacking-style manager to get the most out of the team.." bit again. Or maybe they even criticize him occasionally for pedestrian 1-0 wins.

As a defensive-minded manager myself, its always struck me as a bit odd that the fans never had a problem with my succession of 0-0, 1-0, 0-1, and 1-1 games, with the odd 2-0 thrown in when the counter-attack works late.

Scenario 2: Our defense-minded manager applies to Barca. The incumbent Barca chairman has a high affinity to his club, so he values "matches club style" highly. The applicant's "defensive" nature counts as points against him .. but his high reputation, his Catalan nationality, and his reputation for club loyalty and ambition are all points in favor. Unluckily, he loses enough points for being "defensive" that a different applicant "out-points" him.

The Barca chairman tells him "We wanted to go with a more attack-minded manager," so he gets an explanation for why he wasn't hired! Wow! That's a feature, not a bug!

Two years later, as the club continue to struggle, both the manager and the chairman are ousted. Failure at the Nou Camp isn't an option for either .. The new chairman comes in, and has less "affinity for club" and more "ambition".

Our manager applies again. The "defensive" mentality doesn't cost him many points with this chairman, and his high reputation and high ambition stats are major points in his favor! This time, he gets the job!

Again, the fans are outraged, but c'est la vie!

Scenario 3: After achieving promotions from the Conference and League Two with one club, then from League One and the Championship into the Premiership with a second club, our manager has become recognized as a "Promotion Expert". He's built a fair reputation, is known for his defensive style, and especially for his ambition and his control over finances.

Manchester United have been run into the ground by the AI .. badly in debt, they've collapsed to the Championship, and with the players on hand, another relegation might be a possibility. They're looking for a two-year plan: safely mid-table the first year, promotion to the Premiership the second year .. but the chairman is smart enough to recognize that the team's biggest need *right now* is on the financial side, not on the pitch.

Our manager applies. His "Control Over Finances" is the major selling point, putting him head and shoulders above the other applicants. His reputation may not be as high as Man U would like, but its high enough to keep him above some less fiscally responsible applicants. His ambition is a big point in favor, as is the Style marked "Promotion Expert", which dovetails precisely with the chairman's goals. His "defensive style" isn't ideal for the club, but he does run a "4-4-2", which fits the club's style .. when its all tallied out, he's got more points than any other applicant. He gets the job - and a two-year contract at best.

If he's able to turn around the financial situation and earn promotion, he will have scored such major points with the chairman that he's likely to pick up a contract extension .. even if the fans are unhappy with his style of play, his failure to earn promotion his first year in charge, and the club's quick exit from the F.A. Cup last year.

Over the next three years, he qualifies for the UEFA Cup the first year, the Champions League the next, and in the third year wins the Premiership and the F.A. Cup - a double! He's won the fans over with his success .. the chairman loves him .. and he winds up managing Man U for the next ten years, becoming a club legend.

By his fifteenth year in charge, Man U are famed for their "determined defense", and when he finally steps down, both the chairman and the fans are looking for somebody to uphold the tradition of crunching tackles, great 'keeping, and clean sheets ...

Scenario 4: After earning a reputation for defensive football, our manager applies for the Bayern Munich position. Bayern love defensive football, so they hire him.

For the first time in his managerial career, he has money to burn, and he goes all-out for attacking players, bringing in several creative Brazilians, two Dutch attackers, a creative Portugese winger, and a legendary Argentine playmaker. With all the creativity at his disposal, he reworks his tactics to get the most out of attack.

If the team wins the Bundesliga and German Cup in his first year, but the average scores are something like 4-2, 5-1, etc, and the second year, he adds the Champions League trophy to the cabinet ... hey, the fans are going to love him, and they adopt the attacking play with open arms. The board will put aside any issues that they have with defense .. the ends have justified the means.

If, on the other hand, he winds up struggling, interspersing 5-1 victories with 2-4 defeats and 3-3 draws .. he's going to discover that he has a fairly short leash. The fact that his style of play doesn't match the club's and he isn't succeeding .. well, when he does get the sack, he might get a message like "He hasn't turned out to be the manager we thought we were getting", or "Want to get back to the club's roots".

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Again, making the assumption that its all going perfectly .. well, we know that it rarely does.

But, I do think that its, long-term, the right direction to go!

i rarely use SI forums although FM my favourite game, while i'm looking forward to FM10, i'm trying to read old suggestion and see the potential of the game, i find this suggestion is very good one, i would like SI people comment about the possibility of doing it in FM11.

this is a great idea, where SI people about it ?