Fm live means si staff are taking their eye off the ball?

FM08 is to me, the worst si release for several years, and the support (in the form of patches and/or responding to the forum) has been equally lacklustre.Personally i cant help but feel this is related to the development of Fm08.

I know this issue has been discussed before, and responded to (Si tell us that Fm live hasnt reduced the number of staff that work on football manager.)

I however am looking at this from another angle. I suspect that the staff at si are tending to play fm live in there spare time, when in the past they would have just played fm. This means that they are not playing it enough to noticed problems in the match engine, registration issues etc.

Essentially a layer of the testing is being lost.

Maybe they need to hire more in house games testers!

FM08 is to me, the worst si release for several years, and the support (in the form of patches and/or responding to the forum) has been equally lacklustre.Personally i cant help but feel this is related to the development of Fm08.

I know this issue has been discussed before, and responded to (Si tell us that Fm live hasnt reduced the number of staff that work on football manager.)

I however am looking at this from another angle. I suspect that the staff at si are tending to play fm live in there spare time, when in the past they would have just played fm. This means that they are not playing it enough to noticed problems in the match engine, registration issues etc.

Essentially a layer of the testing is being lost.

Maybe they need to hire more in house games testers!

I dont think the development has slowed down. It has been like that since the beginning. We always get 2 patches released at about the same time. There are always bugs that never get fixed. And there are never any major changes to the game. I agree that some of the changes they have made were bad and that fm08 is in a sense a step backwards (new skin, pointless match flow).

Maybe Fm09 is gonna be different

There are apparently two completely seperate teams working on FM and FM live. So while there are some issues with the game it in my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with FMLive.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

I suspect that the staff at si are tending to play fm live in there spare time, when in the past they would have just played fm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great bit of unproven speculation there! The daily mail would be proud of you!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

There are apparently two completely seperate teams working on FM and FM live. So while there are some issues with the game it in my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with FMLive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i am not saying that it is the amount of people working on fm team that is the issue. I am arguing that maybe a problem has been created inadvertantly - everyone at si spends their spare time playing fm live instead of fm, thus they are not noticing the bugs as early as they would in the past, and hence we get a sloppy release.

Did they not advertise Q and A vacancies a few weeks ago for more testing?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stumostro:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

I suspect that the staff at si are tending to play fm live in there spare time, when in the past they would have just played fm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great bit of unproven speculation there! The daily mail would be proud of you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its just the impression i have, from various things that have been said. They are playing fm live alot an loving, it is supposed to be even more addictive, and you cant readily play two games at once.

i would have thought Kelly's spent all his spare time in eating? no?

eating in front of computer? what kind of a slob are you?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

I'm Scottish, I don't even use a fork and knife </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because you use a spork?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

There are apparently two completely seperate teams working on FM and FM live. So while there are some issues with the game it in my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with FMLive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i am not saying that it is the amount of people working on fm team that is the issue. I am arguing that maybe a problem has been created inadvertantly - everyone at si spends their spare time playing fm live instead of fm, thus they are not noticing the bugs as early as they would in the past, and hence we get a sloppy release. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have dedicated testing team who are paid to spot the bugs so I'm afraid you're way off here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They have dedicated testing team who are paid to spot the bugs so I'm afraid you're way off here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well they didn't do a very good job with the unpatched version

I'm so surpirsed by some of the negative posts, fair enough retail version was bugged but most has been fixed, and to be honest its always the same each year so you shouldn't be surprised

The new features like match flow I think its great, if people got into the graphics a bit they would notice that the skind dosen't matter you can just change it!

To be honest this the most hooked I've been in the last two years!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiDolman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They have dedicated testing team who are paid to spot the bugs so I'm afraid you're way off here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well they didn't do a very good job with the unpatched version </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know? Do you really think most of the genuine bugs left in the game upon release weren't spotted and passed on to the development team?

Well hopefully somebody at SI towers is still playing FM!

Seriously its where the issues with the 8.01 couldve been spotted easily - by playing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiDolman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They have dedicated testing team who are paid to spot the bugs so I'm afraid you're way off here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well they didn't do a very good job with the unpatched version </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know? Do you really think most of the genuine bugs left in the game upon release weren't spotted and passed on to the development team? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its common knowledge that the issues were known before release- so its not the testing that should be questioned for 8.00 but the decision to release it "as is"- especially as there was no release day patch in the offing.

Sadly SI know they can get away with this, as goodwill and trust built over many years means many, many will rush out and buy it.

SI should be beware that its a lot easier to lose this brand loyalty than to build it up.

Really should lay off SI.

It's not easy developing a Game and they can't spot every bug in the game.

This is a PC game and patches do solve problems, and it is our job as consumers to report bugs to the creators so that they can look at the bugs.

Everyone seems to whine and complain about how the Goal to Shot ratio is bugged or something stupid like that.

If you encounter a bug, report it instead if wasting everyones time moaning about it.

The testers won't encounter every bug in the game, so that's why we need to help them when we encounter one instead of blame them. They do a very good job with this game and there's plenty of other games out there which are completely unplayable due to bugs, but this game is not.

Give the boys some credit.

Apart from the FML dev team and Miles, we hardly see any SI staff on FML so the speculation is rubbish.

Paul C makes fleeting appearances but mostly to pick up info on the ME.

The FM beta test forum is as busy as I've ever seen it with far more testers posting some real quality reports and it's obvious to me that SI have increased FM resources since the Sega deal rather than the opposite.

slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

Really should lay off SI.

It's not easy developing a Game and they can't spot every bug in the game.

This is a PC game and patches do solve problems, and it is our job as consumers to report bugs to the creators so that they can look at the bugs.

Everyone seems to whine and complain about how the Goal to Shot ratio is bugged or something stupid like that.

If you encounter a bug, report it instead if wasting everyones time moaning about it.

The testers won't encounter every bug in the game, so that's why we need to help them when we encounter one instead of blame them. They do a very good job with this game and there's plenty of other games out there which are completely unplayable due to bugs, but this game is not.

Give the boys some credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

most of us are fans of si, and addicted to their games otherwise we wouldnt be here on this forum.

this cant disguise the fact that fm08 was a sloppy release.

there is no excuse for bugs that have been highlighted in previous versions of the game, and fixed in patches to re-appear in each new release. for example the stadium expansion bug -the same thing seems to happen in every release - surely that is not acceptable?

This year we had to wait a long time for a patch. I can understand with areas like the match engine, it is preferable to wait and make sure it is working properly than have a number of fixes, but surely bugs like the stadium expansion, act in isolation and a patch for that type of thing could have been released much earlier.

Finally for whatever reason people from si are posting alot less in the forums. When they do post they are often fairly hostile and/or in denial about the bugs. I think that this has meant regular gamers are more frustrated this year than with previous releases where there was more dialogue. There is a several page critique of the transfer system somewhere which i dont believe ever had any official response from si. Instead you only see people like Jacobsen in threads which are outwardly hostile - just before he closes them!

Thankyou Ter for posting in this thread!

if you wanted to know why SI are posting less on the forum read this thread.

These forums

Plenty of things disappoint me or mildly irritate me about FM08, plenty of other things about it excite me. Having to try to add extra features to an already successful game year on year must be extremely difficult. As a programmer myself (not in the gaming industry though) I know all to well how hard it can be to iron out all the bugs and to predict the effects of a new addition on all existing parts of the software.

By definition the more that is added in the more there is there for it to interact with and potentially cause inbalance...it is just the way it is when you are into version whatever it is now (I have no idea how many versions there have been) always looking to add novel new ideas. I know what I am paying for when I buy it and am happy to accept that maybe I won't like one version as much as a previous one

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:

Originally posted by SiDolman:

quote:

They have dedicated testing team who are paid to spot the bugs so I'm afraid you're way off here.

Well they didn't do a very good job with the unpatched version

How do you know? Do you really think most of the genuine bugs left in the game upon release weren't spotted and passed on to the development team? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe i was a bit hasty by saying that but my current game bugs me in the fact that the poor player development has made the football world in the game a farce, you should see the national teams. I just find it strange that nobody seemed to realise this before they released the game, its like nobody at SI played a game longer than a few seasons and thought perhaps we should fix this. But its not a problem, it will all be fixed soon enough hopefully please

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah right, i thought you would just shout around the office, or have a hidden forum on here for SI staff to discuss ideas etc

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it refreshing to have a few threads worth reading in GQ the moment .

Player ratings.

Match engine.

(See what you can do Mitja when you stop moaning).

Critique of transfer mechanism.

Player development.

When was the last time that there were 4 decent threads on the first page of GQ at the same time.

Maybe if there were more of them and less in the style of the opening post of this thread, then the FM World would be a happier little place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it refreshing to have a few threads worth reading in GQ the moment .

Player ratings.

Match engine.

(See what you can do Mitja when you stop moaning).

Critique of transfer mechanism.

Player development.

When was the last time that there were 4 decent threads on the first page of GQ at the same time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One man can only do so much. It appears that man is Ched!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Maybe if there were more of them and less in the style of the opening post of this thread, then the FM World would be a happier little place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that. But even now there aren't that many responses in these excellent threads. Maybe that's what is keeping the level of discussion high - threads not degenerating into slanging matches within 5 posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ah right, i thought you would just shout around the office, or have a hidden forum on here for SI staff to discuss ideas etc </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think shouting out "Haw! Go to http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...922044673#8922044673" is going to go down very well </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many staff are there in the SI office Ter?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it refreshing to have a few threads worth reading in GQ the moment .

Player ratings.

Match engine.

(See what you can do Mitja when you stop moaning).

Critique of transfer mechanism.

Player development.

When was the last time that there were 4 decent threads on the first page of GQ at the same time.

Maybe if there were more of them and less in the style of the opening post of this thread, then the FM World would be a happier little place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would add 5th one;

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/6432087473

oh goody another windge thread.

FM08 is a good game. ok its not perfect but if you think you can do better make your own game.

These people have spent ages making this series and i will applaud them. There are bugs but get over it!

Mitja. That thread isn't even in GQ.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Just Jack:

oh goody another windge thread.

FM08 is a good game. ok its not perfect but if you think you can do better make your own game.

These people have spent ages making this series and i will applaud them. There are bugs but get over it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anybody has ever claimed they can do better.

It's just that we don't want to see the series decline, and IMO this has been a low point. While CM4 was heavily bugged, that at least had a massive new feature, FM08 just doesn't seem finished.

Not that i agree with this thread at all btw.

I think this was just a bit of complacency on SIs behalf due to the lack of much reasonable competition, i don't think it had anything to do with FM Live...which, due to the fact this has been answered, makes me wonder why this thread is still open....

I think I have to agree with the original post.

During the weeks leading up to the release of EHM 2007, I noticed a significant drop-off in SI's presence. Then the game came out, and it just didn't seem on-track with what they'd produced in the previous two years... not to mention how riddled with bugs it was(many of which still exist, and unlike FM, are guaranteed to never get fixed).

And then FM08 starts arriving, and SI is still very quiet. ...Then FM08 is released, and in a very unsatisfying state to many of the users here. And they still remain quiet(except in threads like this that question their activity).

Sorry to say it SI, since I've been a huge fan for a while... but there has definitely been a noticeable drop from what you guys where just a couple years ago.

Different development teams, with the exception of the engine, on which both versions live or die. This should mean that the dual development will improve the quality of the engine as SI will have much greater conception of how the user base actually plays. Bugs that may not have been picked up in testing for FM alone (due to the limited nature of the tactics being employed by testers) might well be exposed in FML.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it refreshing to have a few threads worth reading in GQ the moment .

Player ratings.

Match engine.

(See what you can do Mitja when you stop moaning).

Critique of transfer mechanism.

Player development.

When was the last time that there were 4 decent threads on the first page of GQ at the same time.

Maybe if there were more of them and less in the style of the opening post of this thread, then the FM World would be a happier little place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but how many of them have had any official response from si? (by that a mean a post by someone whose expertise relates to the area being discussed, rather than for example Ter who posts more than most at si, but freely admits that he doesnt know anymore about these issues for example than the rest of us.

To me the lack of response leaves you feeling that you are whistling in the wind, and is very frustrating.

Tom I understand that would frustrate some people but it's nothing new and therefore your implication that something has caused it is plain wrong.

SI have never indulged in lengthy debate about such issues on here, they do take note of them though.

Tom. You've only recently signed up to the forums so let me explain.

This forum, (Football Manager General Discussion), is a place where we, (the users of the game), discuss the game in general terms. What it's not is a place to demand or even expect, questions to be asked of SI.

In the poast there has been significant response from SI, (and there still is in any topic that piques the interest), but be under no illusions.... THIS FORUM IS NOT HERE FOR US TO QUESTION SI. IT IS HERE FOR US TO DISCUSS AMONGST OURSELVES.

Obviously we do ask SI questions from time to time and in the main, if the question is well presented and of a topic that has not been "done to death", then you will usually get a response somewhere even if it is only an acknowledgment that the situation is currently being looked into. Also the recent negativityb on the forums is just one reason why a number of SI staff post less frequently at the moment than they have done in the past.

The sooner we stop expecting SI to respond to every thread then the smoother this place will run.

SI read a LOT of these threads and the good threads generally keep getting bumped just so they don't get missed.

The threads that we've list above are decent discussions in their own right without the need for comment from SI.

The reason for this may be that, (using the player ratings for example), they have already commented i the bugs forum that this is being looked into and there may, (or may not), be a change to this in the next patch.

This forum is General Discussion, not General Questions for SI.

Say it brother!! (from a different mother!)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it refreshing to have a few threads worth reading in GQ the moment .

Player ratings.

Match engine.

(See what you can do Mitja when you stop moaning).

Critique of transfer mechanism.

Player development.

When was the last time that there were 4 decent threads on the first page of GQ at the same time.

Maybe if there were more of them and less in the style of the opening post of this thread, then the FM World would be a happier little place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but how many of them have had any official response from si? (by that a mean a post by someone whose expertise relates to the area being discussed, rather than for example Ter who posts more than most at si, but freely admits that he doesnt know anymore about these issues for example than the rest of us.

To me the lack of response leaves you feeling that you are whistling in the wind, and is very frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- although I appreciate that SI should be spending their time on the game, as somebody who has been on these forums since CM2 its obvious that SIs presence on these forums has declined over the last couple of releases.

Now for me there is a lot of brand loyalty that SI have earnt over those 10 years- much of it has been because in the past their customer support has been flawless, and they really fostered and were actively a part of a genuine community.

Now as somebody who started in IT 17 years ago I know how we all change as regards our work- Im the same person out of work as I always was but as Im now management I am much more professional, and I appreciate that as CM/FM has grown and moved to Sega that they also will have had to evolve. But regardless of this communication needs to be maintained (especially after a release like FM08 that hasnt exactly been universally praised on these forums)- maybe not from SI directly but from some official source.

Which is all fine and dandy when it going ok- but just look at these forums, there isnt a lot of positivity towards the latest release is there?

I saw Ovs comment which quite rightly says that statistically (I assume this means sales) and critically FM08 is their best release, but imo this is misleading.

SI have a captive audience as currently they have no genuine competition and even though CM has shown signs of improvement ( and in this players opinion fresher ideas than SI is coming up with to) its damaged by past outings as many will disregard it automatically.

Secondly the reviews have never been critical of FM- its assumed that its the best and even CM4 got universally good reviews in the popular PC mags. They also failed to pick up on the closing down bug- which is strange as you can guarantee that they would mention bugs in other releases but somehow FM is untouchable when it comes to genuine objective criticism in the PC press.

Im sure SI work damn hard on each release, but from this gamers perspective a lot of the hard work and brand loyalty that has been built over the years is in danger of evaporating. The atmosphere in the forums are testament to this- as we see people signing up for the first time just to complain about FM08, proving that its not just the hardcore fans who notice these things.

Lastly this series is in a rut- fresh and innovative ideas are practically non-existent, this year the new additions were paper thin and by and large cosmetic (match flow), or in areas where people just didnt care (International Management). Yet longstanding issues or poorly realised areas remain untouched such as the transfer market, the media, player interaction etc.

Thats why I think people have focused so much on the match engine- as it appears that from the potential of 8.0 that this was going to be FM08s saving grace, especially as apart from the obvious issues it looked like a radical change and was really looking good.

At some point your rivals may get it right, and then SI may genuinely see how damaging a release like FM08 has really been.

Seriously though it's about time that someone like Jimbokav1971 said this as I regularly visit these forums and most of the posts on here are from people demanding answers from SI otherwise about bugs problems they have and if SI don't answer they'll commit suicide (worse case I know).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

FM08 is to me, the worst si release for several years, and the support (in the form of patches and/or responding to the forum) has been equally lacklustre.Personally i cant help but feel this is related to the development of Fm08.

I know this issue has been discussed before, and responded to (Si tell us that Fm live hasnt reduced the number of staff that work on football manager.)

I however am looking at this from another angle. I suspect that the staff at si are tending to play fm live in there spare time, when in the past they would have just played fm. This means that they are not playing it enough to noticed problems in the match engine, registration issues etc.

Essentially a layer of the testing is being lost.

Maybe they need to hire more in house games testers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think FM is counting too much bugs, you should try Fifa Manager.

That game is crashing and show-stopping all the time.

My FM2008 didn’t see one single showstopper at all and I play it rather a lot.

Sure, it’s having bugs. But relax, it’s software! Due its complex nature, software of any decent size will always contain bugs. Doesn’t matter how much effort you put in testing.

I’m pretty sure the SI people do not play FM all the time in their spare time. They go out, drink beers and get drunk, meet people, go to the football, read magazines and books, go to the movies, have sex, etc…

And this is good, because lock people always to the same situation and they will ****** soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bigboytris:

Seriously though it's about time that someone like Jimbokav1971 said this as I regularly visit these forums and most of the posts on here are from people demanding answers from SI otherwise about bugs problems they have and if SI don't answer they'll commit suicide (worse case I know). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just re-read wot I wrote meant to say '...people demanding answer from Si about bugs they have and if SI don't answer.....' OOOPS!