For the love of god nerf Torres in FM12~!

hah.. Guy scores at least 2 goals against me everytime and often leads the premiership in goals scored but in RL he's poo!

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Do people not understand that?

Figure out a way to stop him then, perhaps?

In my current save my Arsenal team have played Chelsea five times and Torres is yet to score.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Do people not understand that?

Ugh. No. Not only is that a horribly overused cliché, it's not even true. Players' bodies decline, or they try to change the way they play and lose what made them so effective in the first place. Bobby Charlton couldn't run out on the pitch now and play the way he did in his prime (although he'd probably still be better than me!) Michael Owen was a shadow of the player he used to be from the age of 26! To borrow an example from another sport, Tiger Woods decline has been inexorable, and it's almost impossible to imagine him becoming as dominant again as he was ten years ago.

It's possible that Torres will return to his peak again, with a run of goals after adjusting to AVB's system. It's not certain though, and to me it looks increasingly unlikely. He can still be very effective, but not as terrifying as he used to be when you saw him on the Liverpool teamsheet.

To the OP, I'm sure the Chelsea researcher will take a look at Torres' attributes for FM12. I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves them alone at the start though. If Torres is struggling when the first patch is released then you'd probably see a downgrade then.

The reseacrhers cannot downgrade him to a Spanish Carlton Cole on the basis of one awful season, which many mental factors were likely to blame(unhappines/massive move to a different club halfway through a season). Perhaps a hidden mental stat/physical attribute such as pace....perhaps.....but otherwise what evidence do you have to suggest a downgrade? Not even a slight CA downgrade will make any difference.

He's not poo either. Just very short of form.

Latest update from the riots : 6 shots fired in london , All missed , police would like 2 question fernando torres!

dfgrigg, you make a good point, but you can't dismiss what ArsenalFan7 either. People were demanding Rooney to be massively downgraded in the third patch, but in the second half of the season Rooney had begun to recapture his form and helped drive Man Utd to the title. A bad half season at Liverpool, and a difficult time at Chelsea should not see a massive deterioration of stats. Yes, he should get a downgrade, but don't expect a massive dip in stats.

dfgrigg, you make a good point, but you can't dismiss what ArsenalFan7 either. People were demanding Rooney to be massively downgraded in the third patch, but in the second half of the season Rooney had begun to recapture his form and helped drive Man Utd to the title. A bad half season at Liverpool, and a difficult time at Chelsea should not see a massive deterioration of stats. Yes, he should get a downgrade, but don't expect a massive dip in stats.

Needs his consistency and pressure stats dropping i guess, rather than playing stats

dfgrigg, you make a good point, but you can't dismiss what ArsenalFan7 either. People were demanding Rooney to be massively downgraded in the third patch, but in the second half of the season Rooney had begun to recapture his form and helped drive Man Utd to the title. A bad half season at Liverpool, and a difficult time at Chelsea should not see a massive deterioration of stats. Yes, he should get a downgrade, but don't expect a massive dip in stats.

Sure. I was speaking more generally - I'm afraid the phrase that ArsenalFan7 used is a particular bugbear of mine. If I were the Chelsea researcher I certainly wouldn't take an axe to Torres' attributes now, but if he's still struggling in six months time then I think you'd certainly have to consider some sort of downgrade. Not necessarily a massive one, but it does look to me that he's lost some of the explosive acceleration that he used to have, and once that's gone it doesn't usually come back. Anyway, at the moment I'd agree that it's premature.

To be honest it seems more like a bad year and a half for torres, after injuries and such and watching him play, he looks like hes lost a yard of pace... Id also reckon it would be justifiable to downgrade his composure and first touch. Maybe to 11 and 14, with 15 finishing...

i agree his composure, acceleration need reducing as well as his off the ball and anticipation which are god awful now, he looks like he doesn't know where to stand or run to in games anymore. a shadow of the player that arrived from spain.... FACT!

I think he was exhausted going into the world cup probably carrying a few knocks as well. Theres a long history of players winning world cups and struggling the next season.

He just needs some rest and he'll be back (he scored in pre-season). Still needs a CA downgrade though.

is there even a FM 2012? unlike usual years, there is no announcement even till now?!

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Do people not understand that?

Torres has been awful for the best part of 2 years. He was great for the 2 years prior to that. And he was decent at Atletico. He hasn't just 'lost it' overnight he has taken 2 years to lose it.

Torres has been awful for the best part of 2 years. He was great for the 2 years prior to that. And he was decent at Atletico. He hasn't just 'lost it' overnight he has taken 2 years to lose it.

You are simply wrong in saying he has been awful for that length of time. In 2009/10 season he scored 22 goals in 32 games. It would have been more but he missed the last month of the season through injury.

He rushed back from that injury to go the World Cup, and that is the root of the problems he faced last term.

Torres has been awful for the best part of 2 years. He was great for the 2 years prior to that. And he was decent at Atletico. He hasn't just 'lost it' overnight he has taken 2 years to lose it.

2 years! Haha, he was bad last season but the season before that he was excellent despite his injuries. When he did get on the field he was as lethal as always. Last season he was suffering from a lack of a break as well as (I suspect) wanting to go to Chelsea from the beginning of the season. It didn't seem like he wanted to start the new season with Liverpool but was talked into it only for things to go badly and he forced a move in the end. Plus with the way things ended at Liverpool its hardly surprising he struggled even more after signing for Chelsea.

If he's taken a dips in form for a season, surely the thing to do would be to lower his consistency from that lofty 18 down to more like 10?

If he's taken a dips in form for a season, surely the thing to do would be to lower his consistency from that lofty 18 down to more like 10?

Isn't part of consistency being consistantly bad as well?

Isn't part of consistency being consistantly bad as well?

I suppose so, but he's still shown glimses of what he was, even if fleeting. Either way, 18 consistency for the man seems a bit over the top irregardless.

Hefty cuts to Consistency and Natural Fitness, and a raise to Injury Proneness... Job done.

Form is temporary, but when a "run of poor form" stretches over one full season it's not "poor form" anymore... it's something else...

I agree FM db shouldn't take into account temporary drops or peaks in form and performance, but when the real world gives so many and so consistent signs of a player having become better or worse than his FM counterpart, it's time to consider changes.

Instead it looks like the general policy is "if in doubt, don't change a thing"... and that's the reason a couple of horribly regressed players (Amauri, Toni, Iaquinta) still kept their heyday attributes or something close to that...

And I'm afraid with Torres it's going be the same... No matter how badly he plays or how unfit he is, we'll still get the deadly Torres he used to be... because, as said, "class is permanent"...

^ I agree really, if their still in doubt a small tweak may suffice for 1 year, the thing is, he was poor from about february before the world cup. Awful in the world cup, and last year everyone was saying "wait for him to get fit" he got fit at some point during that season and was still impotent, he wasnt too great today for chelsea... Its gone on for a year now so i do feel he warrents a drop. But if in doubt then at the very least nail his natural fitness and injury proneness, and please take down his composure!

Class might be permanent but the body isnt, and neither is the stability of the mind. So that could warrent not touching his technicals, but his mentals and physicals. Players do suddenly drop, it happens, look at Kluivert, i sometimes think newcastle just signed a look-a-like.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Do people not understand that?

qutie right, and Torres has only had one genuinely prolific season in his career

^ I agree really, if their still in doubt a small tweak may suffice for 1 year, the thing is, he was poor from about february before the world cup. Awful in the world cup, and last year everyone was saying "wait for him to get fit" he got fit at some point during that season and was still impotent, he wasnt too great today for chelsea... Its gone on for a year now so i do feel he warrents a drop. But if in doubt then at the very least nail his natural fitness and injury proneness, and please take down his composure!

Class might be permanent but the body isnt, and neither is the stability of the mind. So that could warrent not touching his technicals, but his mentals and physicals. Players do suddenly drop, it happens, look at Kluivert, i sometimes think newcastle just signed a look-a-like.

He got man of the match today.

Latest update from the riots : 6 shots fired in london , All missed , police would like 2 question fernando torres!

make me laugh

He's no Benjani

qutie right, and Torres has only had one genuinely prolific season in his career

Utter nonsense.

Utter nonsense.

Let's make it two and two halves...

2003-04 35 apps/19 goals

2007-08 33/24

2008-09 24/14

2009-10 22/18

But the point isn't how many goals he has scored 3 or 5 years ago... the point is his performances from 2010 onwards have been completely disappointing and nowhere near the level he used to play, and nowhere near the attributes he's STILL being given in FM (I'm willing to bet little will change for FM12, because let's be honest, you can't really cut down a player like him...)

As said, 15 months are a bit too long to be considered "a momentary drop in form"... How long can a player live off his reputation and past achievements before it's time to reassess his skills without prejudice?

Michael Owen?

Some of the stats for Torres are massively overrated though. I'm not going to argue about finishing and composure etc, but work rate, stamina, determination etc all need to be around 10 or below.

No doubt Torres is a class act. However its not easy just to buy a player and expect him to create wonders, its not FIFA or FM its real life where there are a lot of things that may have had an adverse effect on Torres, give him until the patch in Jan if he still doesnt produce the goods then axe his stats. Chelsea have got a new manager and a new system it will take time for the whole squad to adjust to the way AVB plays so judging any of them at the current time is ridiculous.

If I recall correctly, Rooney had that dry spell where he didnt score for months last season. Look at him now. Torres will rise again!!!

To be honest it seems more like a bad year and a half for torres, after injuries and such and watching him play, he looks like hes lost a yard of pace... Id also reckon it would be justifiable to downgrade his composure and first touch. Maybe to 11 and 14, with 15 finishing...

This.

Guy seems to have lost some pace and that extra burst of acceleration which made him one of the quickest around. Much like when Michael Owen lost his pace after those multiple hamstring injuries.Except Torres doesnt just rely on pace like Mickey did. Also Torres's work rate seems to have gone down

Looked sharper when I saw him at Ibrox and again at the weekend, got man of the match. Can see him coming good this year. I do agree about the pace, he does seem just a tad short.