State of 2009/2010 Football Management Games / Sims

CM is going to be released in September, I think we all agree that this is the optimum time to release the game. Everyone is hyped up by the summer transfers, the teams have been locked and after a particularly sparse summer of football, people will be gagging to get involved again. By releasing at this time you will get more of the market share.

I think SI realise this. Their original plan of a October / November release date is going to be pushed forward to compete with CM.

This has made me think about the development time of FM2010. Everyone knows that the original release of FM2009 was plagued with problems, it has put a hell of a lot of people off of the Football Manager brand. This will contribute more than most people are willing to recognise to market share moving towards CM.

To SIs credit, they have tried admirably to remedy the dire situation they found themselves in with lazyingly releasing FM2009. The dev team have been working on 2009 until Febuary time (the patches). This will have cut into development time of 2010.

I haven't even mentioned the resources that have been allocated to FM Live. I know SI repeatedly say that it is a separate team that deals with FM Live, but those of us in the industry that monitor job postings know otherwise. Is it a coincidence that the poor state of FM2009 at release coincided with the year FM Live was launched?

This leaves (if they move the release date to September) a total of only 7 months. I think this will be cut into further by the embarrassment suffered from the 2009 release and the obvious inadaquete testing. Is this really enough time to make any meaningful features, or will SI panick again and add superficial features that no one wants and pass them off as massive changes (Female managers, but then SI strive for realism?)

CM did not release a patch to their games and instead cut their loses and started to develop their game after. This has given them an insanely greater amount of time to.

Another thing I think that is in CMs favour is that they have had to start from scratch. I know most people think the fact that FM has had a decent code base for so long is a benefit. I think it is a negative. It is obvious that the 3d match engine is showing its age. It was never designed with 3d in mind, and this has shown with the attempt at sticking it onto the 2d engine.

CM has not had to live with this restriction and has been designed from the ground up with all the modern features a match engine should have. There is no *cruft* that has to maintained / massaged to get a new whizz bang feature.

Anyway, we will see what happens, but I think that the football manager scene is about to change massively.

Very "interesting" points made

but I don't think SI will move FM10 back. They seem to be quite stubborn when it comes to releasing information on the new game, and anything to do with the release date. I think they'll release the game "when it is ready to be released" (quotes used because that's probably what they said about '09).

This reads as a CM sales pitch, but I am afraid you are mainly right.

Although I am skeptical about your "insider knowledge", I have been having similar thoughts.

After last year, SI cannot afford to rush a release the game out in the manner that they did, but given the vast array of features CM are including, and they have had 2-3 times longer to develop them I can see you being correct.

Time will tell, but I do think that SI will pay heavily for the state of FM2009.

People should not underestimate the power of the CM brand.

I think SI realise this. Their original plan of a October / November release date is going to be pushed forward to compete with CM.

I really cannot see what has made you say this, I'm sure SI does not need to compete with CM and will not crack under pressure. Potentially by releasing CM early, they will mess things up and I for one would rather wait for a game that has been worked on for months rather than just thrown together with a few transfers put it.

This has made me think about the development time of FM2010. Everyone knows that the original release of FM2009 was plagued with problems, it has put a hell of a lot of people off of the Football Manager brand. This will contribute more than most people are willing to recognise to market share moving towards CM.

2009 was indeed plagued with problems, but these were problems which SI managed to fix eventually, with the help of loyal customers who wish to help the game get better

To SIs credit, they have tried admirably to remedy the dire situation they found themselves in with lazyingly releasing FM2009. The dev team have been working on 2009 until Febuary time (the patches). This will have cut into development time of 2010.

You'll need to explain how, you say below you think SI has one team on every job. Since 09 has been released I'm sure SI have been planning out '10 and have been working on it long before Patch 3 came out. To say it cuts into developement time is absolutely ridiculous.

I haven't even mentioned the resources that have been allocated to FM Live. I know SI repeatedly say that it is a separate team that deals with FM Live, but those of us in the industry that monitor job postings know otherwise. Is it a coincidence that the poor state of FM2009 at release coincided with the year FM Live was launched?

This is the best bit. You think SI has one team switching from game to game? Do you see people like Marc Duffy for example posting frequently in the bugs forum? And how the hell would you know otherwise? Are you a ninja that sneaks through SI Towers?

This leaves (if they move the release date to September) a total of only 7 months. I think this will be cut into further by the embarrassment suffered from the 2009 release and the obvious inadaquete testing. Is this really enough time to make any meaningful features, or will SI panick again and add superficial features that no one wants and pass them off as massive changes (Female managers, but then SI strive for realism?)

This will not leave 7 months? Your atrocious assumptions of SI leaving everything until 09 is perfect is just shocking.

CM did not release a patch to their games and instead cut their loses and started to develop their game after. This has given them an insanely greater amount of time to.

This is what seperates SI from CM. CM just through their game on the shelf and leave it their until they decide to make a new one. SI work to fix problems and even allow customers to report and test problems/patches for them.

Another thing I think that is in CMs favour is that they have had to start from scratch. I know most people think the fact that FM has had a decent code base for so long is a benefit. I think it is a negative. It is obvious that the 3d match engine is showing its age. It was never designed with 3d in mind, and this has shown with the attempt at sticking it onto the 2d engine.

I'd love to know how that is in there favour, starting from scratch over lots of dedicated volunteer researchers and as you said, a good code base?? The 3D match engine was not perfect, but, for the first management game to induct 3D, it was a pretty darn good attempt imo.

I was going to point out the problems with the OP but I got sick of typing

I really hope CM lives up to the hype less there are going to be a lot of disappointed users.

PS Match engines have always been poor on first release but maybe BGS will buck this trend.

I'm not going to argue the subjective points, but the main thrust of your argument falls down around the following two assumptions:

- That SI patched until February as a reaction to release problems and that this will cut into the development time.

SI have in fact patched EVERY version of FM up until February. This year was no different. Development on the new game will start at exactly the same time as any other iteration.

- That SI will bring forward their release date, or that a September release date is preferable.

A September release date for CM will cast doubts of the quality of their data, particularly when you consider that games are generally sent off to be mastered at least two weeks before hitting the shelves. I very much doubt you have any inside information on FM's release date and past experience of SI tells me that they won't even know until very close to the end.

The development time will not be impacted by either of these assumptions - something you would have found out with a little research.

I think the majority of people just want FM to work - cut out the useless crap like 'press conferences' and just get the basics sorted like the transfer system and we'll be happy

That said, i'll definitely be trying the demo of CM

I think the majority of people just want FM to work - cut out the useless crap like 'press conferences' and just get the basics sorted like the transfer system and we'll be happy

That said, i'll definitely be trying the demo of CM

I think you vastly misunderstand the "basics" of Football Management as simulated in this game if that is your desire for an improved game. Man management is one of the most deceptively subtle and thoroughly brilliant and potent aspects of management in FM09. Not only do these things work but the way in which they work and the simplicity of the system is a great achievement.

Sometimes I wonder if those people that rush through press conferences and complain about "second season syndrome" or the AI "figuring out their tactics" have realised that they are actually playing a rather deep man management simulation? Could it be that the reason the game is "broken" is because you are a rather inept motivator?

As to the point of this thread, I don't think FM10 has anything to worry about from competitors on a critical level. Sales figures are a different question altogether.

You are just making things up and stating them as if they were known facts...

I won't take the time to comment on all cause I just don't care that much and you'll probably still believe the things you made up.

But just think of this: if SI had decided to "cut their losses" and stop updating FM 09 to focus on FM 10, I'm sure you are the kind of person that would have been on here first, complaining that you were "ripped off" and demanding your money back...

I think you vastly misunderstand the "basics" of Football Management as simulated in this game if that is your desire for an improved game. Man management is one of the most deceptively subtle and thoroughly brilliant and potent aspects of management in FM09. Not only do these things work but the way in which they work and the simplicity of the system is a great achievement.

Sometimes I wonder if those people that rush through press conferences and complain about "second season syndrome" or the AI "figuring out their tactics" have realised that they are actually playing a rather deep man management simulation? Could it be that the reason the game is "broken" is because you are a rather inept motivator?

As to the point of this thread, I don't think FM10 has anything to worry about from competitors on a critical level. Sales figures are a different question altogether.

SFraser you're right press conferences and such add to the man management aspect of the game. Thing is, after a few of them you start feeling like you're dealing with 5 year olds. It becomes extremely tedious for most of us, and I say this as someone who likes to get very involved in my games. I do well in the game despite avoiding press conferences without a team full of stars. I think you're placing too much importance on something, that in my experience, has a negligible impact.

I'm indifferent about the press conferences I'll always have my AM sit through them. I am however concerned about the incompetence of the AI. I think SI can do much better if they focused on what is already a solid base, instead of adding all these little frills that do nothing more than take up valuable development time. If anything the game is still easy because the AI is horrible at building a team. That's all down to it's shoddy transfer dealings.

Now to the OP. This game trumps the rest because of it's ME and in my opinion it'll be a while before anyone comes close let alone take over the mantle of being the best football management sim on the market.

I think someone from SI should blow this post out of the water

Im waiting.

Some features do need more work (there do some to be glitches in press conferences, there are some issues around long-term playability of the game, AI managers could do with being a little more flexible tactically more frequently and I'd argue that there is a need for greater documentation to aid general player understanding of the mechanics of the game).

But from what I've seen of CM, it really , really isn't going to be a game I'd want to invest time in. For other people, it may be the answer to their prayers - a quick play-and-play faux management simulator where you choose 4-4-2, buy your players and away you go to global domination. I'll pass on that though and keep muddling my way through tight matches against a competent AI.

I have been playing FM (actually WSM) for almost a year now and I really like the game. There are some shortcomings, but it keeps me interested trying to build a decent team. I just recently took up Dafuge's challenge and it's definitely keeping me busy.

Can someone give me a quick comparison between FM and CM and why one might prefer CM over FM?

I think I'll stay with FM unless someone can point out something desirable that I'm missing. But I'm still curious and see a lot of references to CM on these forums.

CM isn't being release two months early, it's being released 10 months late. There goes your argument.

I just played Fifa Manager off my cousins computer and I have to say. It'll definitely never challenge FM.

I ran into so many game breaking bugs after only the first 2 in game weeks... It was insane. It made the problems in FM seem trivial.

Put things in perspective for me. Made me realize that we as FMers are truly blessed.

CM isn't being release two months early, it's being released 10 months late. There goes your argument.

I'm glad someone pointed that out to the OP SCIAG

I think all the relevant points have been made, advertising CM should be done at the expense of BGS.

Any discussion on its merits (hypothetical in the extreme atm) belongs in OTF.

Ter is still laying down incidentally;)

OP

CM isn't being release two months early, it's being released 10 months late. There goes your argument.

exactly that

There are so many inaccuracies in that opening post I think I'm going to have to go and have a lie down

LOL!!! I think some people are just bitter!

Here's my two cents:

If the guy that made the presentation videos on CM is anything to go by, CM will be a babbling no-hoper...

Seriously that guys inane drivel about the new CM put me right off it.

There are so many inaccuracies in that opening post I think I'm going to have to go and have a lie down

It did seem to, er, 'beg' a question or two, didn't it? I'm being kind

Here's my two cents:

If the guy that made the presentation videos on CM is anything to go by, CM will be a babbling no-hoper...

Seriously that guys inane drivel about the new CM put me right off it.

and he's the big dog of champ (Roy Meredith fwiw), kinda makes you worry (well, not me because CM is just terrible anyway)

I think you vastly misunderstand the "basics" of Football Management as simulated in this game if that is your desire for an improved game. Man management is one of the most deceptively subtle and thoroughly brilliant and potent aspects of management in FM09. Not only do these things work but the way in which they work and the simplicity of the system is a great achievement.

Sometimes I wonder if those people that rush through press conferences and complain about "second season syndrome" or the AI "figuring out their tactics" have realised that they are actually playing a rather deep man management simulation? Could it be that the reason the game is "broken" is because you are a rather inept motivator?

As to the point of this thread, I don't think FM10 has anything to worry about from competitors on a critical level. Sales figures are a different question altogether.

Jesus man do you realise that the game is just a game?

Reading through some of your posts its is easy to see that you get enjoyment from the game due to your superior knowledge of tactics, man management and just football in general. Sadly not all of us can boast such a wealth of knowledge and like to play the game to escape and relax. I have been a very loyal fan of SI since CM2 but am finding myself increasingly isolated as I dont have the time to get a piont where I can enjoy the game every time I play it. It has taken months for me to get to that point in FM09 and while it has been rewarding in the long run, it has led me to the conclusion that the series is too advanced for me as I have now slipped to the market of "casual gamer".

So people like myslef may be "inept motivators" but we represent a large percentage of the market and the more in depth and "realistic" the game gets the more it will alienate people like me, the people who only demand from a game is too be fun and who were once very loyal SI fanboys but are now questioning whether a purchase of FM10 is likely.

Having met ALL of the FML dev team, I can confidently say NONE of them work on FM.

I'm sure all the women who play FM thank you for your comments about adding female managers being a waste of time. Maybe they actually wanted the feature (and it is only the player that can be a female manager...)

How you can justify BGS cutting their losses and not patched the last CM as a good thing - well, OK then...

Practically every point in the OP is absolutely, completely mistaken

I need a lie down too.

Nobody has played CM10 yet, so we have absolutely no idea how good it is. If previous incarnations' gameplay is anything to go by, it'll be a big shiny good-looking bucket of, er, rubbish. I will play the demo, and I like the idea of the multi-start, but this may well get a little boring after a while.

As for FM09, there were problems but other than the activation/server problems it was far from a disaster. Yes, it felt rushed and under-tested, but it was mostly still playable. The Spanish and Italian league bugs were a very poor miss, though.

As for FM10 (or 11 - they haven't confirmed there will be an FM10 yet) SI advertised for match engine beta testers earlier than ever before, so I think it can safely be assumed that the testing will be more thorough than last year.

Nobody has played CM10 yet, so we have absolutely no idea how good it is. If previous incarnations' gameplay is anything to go by, it'll be a big shiny good-looking bucket of, er, rubbish. I will play the demo, and I like the idea of the multi-start, but this may well get a little boring after a while.

As for FM09, there were problems but other than the activation/server problems it was far from a disaster. Yes, it felt rushed and under-tested, but it was mostly still playable. The Spanish and Italian league bugs were a very poor miss, though.

As for FM10 (or 11 - they haven't confirmed there will be an FM10 yet) SI advertised for match engine beta testers earlier than ever before, so I think it can safely be assumed that the testing will be more thorough than last year.

For £30+ I expect, no, DEMAND more than "mostly still playable" and not have to wait until the second patch for my moneys worth.

But still SI are far better than a lot of other producers who would just leave the game as is and spend the next two years working on the next version.

I really cannot see what has made you say this, I'm sure SI does not need to compete with CM and will not crack under pressure. Potentially by releasing CM early, they will mess things up and I for one would rather wait for a game that has been worked on for months rather than just thrown together with a few transfers put it.

2009 was indeed plagued with problems, but these were problems which SI managed to fix eventually, with the help of loyal customers who wish to help the game get better

You'll need to explain how, you say below you think SI has one team on every job. Since 09 has been released I'm sure SI have been planning out '10 and have been working on it long before Patch 3 came out. To say it cuts into developement time is absolutely ridiculous.

This is the best bit. You think SI has one team switching from game to game? Do you see people like Marc Duffy for example posting frequently in the bugs forum? And how the hell would you know otherwise? Are you a ninja that sneaks through SI Towers?

This will not leave 7 months? Your atrocious assumptions of SI leaving everything until 09 is perfect is just shocking.

This is what seperates SI from CM. CM just through their game on the shelf and leave it their until they decide to make a new one. SI work to fix problems and even allow customers to report and test problems/patches for them.

I'd love to know how that is in there favour, starting from scratch over lots of dedicated volunteer researchers and as you said, a good code base?? The 3D match engine was not perfect, but, for the first management game to induct 3D, it was a pretty darn good attempt imo.

You, good sir, are now the God I praise.

Jesus man do you realise that the game is just a game?

Reading through some of your posts its is easy to see that you get enjoyment from the game due to your superior knowledge of tactics, man management and just football in general. Sadly not all of us can boast such a wealth of knowledge and like to play the game to escape and relax. I have been a very loyal fan of SI since CM2 but am finding myself increasingly isolated as I dont have the time to get a piont where I can enjoy the game every time I play it. It has taken months for me to get to that point in FM09 and while it has been rewarding in the long run, it has led me to the conclusion that the series is too advanced for me as I have now slipped to the market of "casual gamer".

So people like myslef may be "inept motivators" but we represent a large percentage of the market and the more in depth and "realistic" the game gets the more it will alienate people like me, the people who only demand from a game is too be fun and who were once very loyal SI fanboys but are now questioning whether a purchase of FM10 is likely.

See this is what I don't understand. The increased depth and realism should only be a problem if you demand the game be played at the same pace as CM97/98. If you slow your rate of games down and take the time to explore and enjoy all the other areas of management that are now so important, there is no reason for the game to be beyond your ability to play.

To the OP:-

Your reasoning about the 3-d match engine is also false. The match engine is making calculations behind the scenes, whichever way is chosen to display it 2-d, 2-d classic, 3-d, text commentary, the results and actions will still be the same as its the same engine used by all the different viewing platforms. The reason the 3-d appears 'buggy' is due to lack of animations that fully represent every movement fluidly, something that im sure will be greatly improved in FM10.

To the OP:-

Your reasoning about the 3-d match engine is also false. The match engine is making calculations behind the scenes, whichever way is chosen to display it 2-d, 2-d classic, 3-d, text commentary, the results and actions will still be the same as its the same engine used by all the different viewing platforms. The reason the 3-d appears 'buggy' is due to lack of animations that fully represent every movement fluidly, something that im sure will be greatly improved in FM10.

I hope not. There are enough animations in the current 2-D TV View to make watching the football beautiful. Goalkeeper saves, volleys and dribbles are particularly sexy, from a top down perspective. Maybe I should consider a social life.

CM is going to be released in September, I think we all agree that this is the optimum time to release the game. Everyone is hyped up by the summer transfers, the teams have been locked and after a particularly sparse summer of football, people will be gagging to get involved again. By releasing at this time you will get more of the market share.

I think SI realise this. Their original plan of a October / November release date is going to be pushed forward to compete with CM.

This has made me think about the development time of FM2010. Everyone knows that the original release of FM2009 was plagued with problems, it has put a hell of a lot of people off of the Football Manager brand. This will contribute more than most people are willing to recognise to market share moving towards CM.

To SIs credit, they have tried admirably to remedy the dire situation they found themselves in with lazyingly releasing FM2009. The dev team have been working on 2009 until Febuary time (the patches). This will have cut into development time of 2010.

I haven't even mentioned the resources that have been allocated to FM Live. I know SI repeatedly say that it is a separate team that deals with FM Live, but those of us in the industry that monitor job postings know otherwise. Is it a coincidence that the poor state of FM2009 at release coincided with the year FM Live was launched?

This leaves (if they move the release date to September) a total of only 7 months. I think this will be cut into further by the embarrassment suffered from the 2009 release and the obvious inadaquete testing. Is this really enough time to make any meaningful features, or will SI panick again and add superficial features that no one wants and pass them off as massive changes (Female managers, but then SI strive for realism?)

CM did not release a patch to their games and instead cut their loses and started to develop their game after. This has given them an insanely greater amount of time to.

Another thing I think that is in CMs favour is that they have had to start from scratch. I know most people think the fact that FM has had a decent code base for so long is a benefit. I think it is a negative. It is obvious that the 3d match engine is showing its age. It was never designed with 3d in mind, and this has shown with the attempt at sticking it onto the 2d engine.

CM has not had to live with this restriction and has been designed from the ground up with all the modern features a match engine should have. There is no *cruft* that has to maintained / massaged to get a new whizz bang feature.

Anyway, we will see what happens, but I think that the football manager scene is about to change massively.

I just recently came to the conclusion that the ME needs to be redesigned - not overhauled, too. Whilst FM is good and working like a dream I would discourage radical change but really I think time for change is now. It is just possible that a lot who are swayed by the new sexy looking CM10 are just after a new & better, and more realistic ME - I hope they (myself included) find one. And if that is in FM10 thats fine too!

I just recently came to the conclusion that the ME needs to be redesigned - not overhauled, too. Whilst FM is good and working like a dream I would discourage radical change but really I think time for change is now. It is just possible that a lot who are swayed by the new sexy looking CM10 are just after a new & better, and more realistic ME - I hope they (myself included) find one. And if that is in FM10 thats fine too!

Your confusing match engine with graphics.

What you see is only a representation of the match engine.

I would expect this graphical representation to be improved in FM10 while the match engine itself is improved on an ongoing basis through both FMLive and the last few versions of FM much in the same way that games like WoW constantly tweak their engine.

Jesus man do you realise that the game is just a game?

Don't say that!

And as for the casual gaming thing, I want the opposite- for me FM2009 has only become boring after months of exhaustive playing, where I have now finally figured out the game- i.e. where it can no longer surprise me; where it can no longer outwit me. For me, the perfect FM would be one with an infinitely interactive and intelligent world. I know this is an impossibly distant horizon, but every incarnation of FM takes longer to become used to and takes us closer to that world: this is what I want from FM.

The game is a wonderful escape, as u say, letting us do our dream job and slate the guys irl because we can clearly do it better.

Opening post - written by a person with a placard saying "we're all going to die" ?

Also, I was one of those people smarting in indignation for the teething problems on the release date with Steam etc, but I'm sure only the most stubborn of gamers will be alienated forever for that discrepancy...

And finally, the main things that bother me about the game are the developments 5-10 years into a save- as I said above, when your game no longer surprises you. I'd like the game to evolve with time a little more, but I can also see why testing wouldn't "quite" get that far before release..!

Never mind that it has taken them over 12 months to develope the new CM Game thus missing out of alot of sales late last year.

There is no way in hell they will make enough sales to make up for a no release game in late 2008.

I think the fact that FM is released around October/November is a good thing as it gives the game developers time to properly determine player abilities and keep them accurate and up to date with current player form and ability in the new season.

In FML Beta GW Miller we are using the FM10 Beta 2D Match Engine and I can assure you that it is the best Match Engine that I have used in any sports game.

Your confusing match engine with graphics.

What you see is only a representation of the match engine.

I would expect this graphical representation to be improved in FM10 while the match engine itself is improved on an ongoing basis through both FMLive and the last few versions of FM much in the same way that games like WoW constantly tweak their engine.

No, you misunderstand. I do mean the ME generally, the shortcomings of the 3d are another, allbeit associated issue. Some of the silly goals the ME allows, and they look just as daft in 2d, are down to the ME.

I wonder if the new tactical interface wizard, which looks fantastic, will work at its best bolted on to the old ME - I suspect it will revolutionise WHEN it has a dedicated / bespoke ME to work with, FM11 maybe?

In FML Beta GW Miller we are using the FM10 Beta 2D Match Engine and I can assure you that it is the best Match Engine that I have used in any sports game.

That's really good to know

I think as always this opens up a lively debate!

I've always said that SI will not realise the extent of their mistake with the incompetent release of FM09 until FM10 comes about. The whole shambles of that launch was laughable unless you brought the game and were trying to play it!

However as always they do seem to have tried to rectify the errors so at least that is something. However there does STILL appear to be numerous technical problems that people have experienced even when their game has run well for months then all of a sudden doesn't load.

All in all the CM launch will be interesting but to be honest anyone can make a game look good with screenshots and bravado, the test will be the playability of the game and how it feels.

SI having a genuine rival will help us all as it should motivate them to improve their procedures and give their customers a much better product.

All I ask for FM10 is please do not release a game that has not been tested to a professional standard. To me the decline has been ever since Sega came on board, maybe its just me but the commercialisation of the game, the way sometimes the editions look rushed just to meet a boardroom deadline, the in game advertisements, etc all seem to me that a gamne developed by brothers in their bedroom and released to the world in all its glory and simplicity has gone down the commercial route and destroyed the whole ethos of the brand.

I realise that things move on and you have to move with the times but oh the glory days!

I think as always this opens up a lively debate!

I've always said that SI will not realise the extent of their mistake with the incompetent release of FM09 until FM10 comes about. The whole shambles of that launch was laughable unless you brought the game and were trying to play it!

However as always they do seem to have tried to rectify the errors so at least that is something. However there does STILL appear to be numerous technical problems that people have experienced even when their game has run well for months then all of a sudden doesn't load.

All in all the CM launch will be interesting but to be honest anyone can make a game look good with screenshots and bravado, the test will be the playability of the game and how it feels.

SI having a genuine rival will help us all as it should motivate them to improve their procedures and give their customers a much better product.

All I ask for FM10 is please do not release a game that has not been tested to a professional standard. To me the decline has been ever since Sega came on board, maybe its just me but the commercialisation of the game, the way sometimes the editions look rushed just to meet a boardroom deadline, the in game advertisements, etc all seem to me that a gamne developed by brothers in their bedroom and released to the world in all its glory and simplicity has gone down the commercial route and destroyed the whole ethos of the brand.

I realise that things move on and you have to move with the times but oh the glory days!

Totally, totally agree, as a major fan of SI's CM's & FM for over 10 years. I thought your comments RE incompetance were a little harsh at first then remembered all the time on release day that I spent trying to activate it - total TOTAL shambles. Have always taken a days hol for release day - not this year, unless I have a worthwhile new CM release to play as standby (and that is not guaranteed!) just in case the FM10 "experience" is like last year.

Yeah was a real mess but to be fair it was a new system so lets hope they have really ironed out all the problems by the time FM10 comes around.

Don't get me wrong, I think SI have a great game and have kept it at the top for a long time, I just hope they do take on board the frustrations that FM09 gave everybody and learn from their mistakes.

There are so many inaccuracies in that opening post I think I'm going to have to go and have a lie down

Funny i did the same when you released FM09 there was so many inaccuracies and bugs i had to lie down too

Now that you mention it I'm pretty sure I've spotted a ninja out of the corner of my eye a few times but when I've blinked they are gone. Hmmm, the plot thickens...

Bookmarked. They're Miles' invasion force.

Yeah was a real mess but to be fair it was a new system so lets hope they have really ironed out all the problems by the time FM10 comes around.

Don't get me wrong, I think SI have a great game and have kept it at the top for a long time, I just hope they do take on board the frustrations that FM09 gave everybody and learn from their mistakes.

"to be fair" a lot of Posters that knew of DRM (I had never heard of it before), said it would be farce and no one listened!. Profits over customers - I expect better from SI, maybe Sega wear the trousers in that relationship then?. I would rather pay £5 more for FM to cover piracy losses / costs than end up with day I had on 14/11/08 !. In the end I gave up and went to insure the car, that cost approx £500 and was a lot more fun.

DRM is great. You don't need the game in at start up.

"to be fair" a lot of Posters that knew of DRM (I had never heard of it before), said it would be farce and no one listened!. Profits over customers - I expect better from SI, maybe Sega wear the trousers in that relationship then?. I would rather pay £5 more for FM to cover piracy losses / costs than end up with day I had on 14/11/08 !. In the end I gave up and went to insure the car, that cost approx £500 and was a lot more fun.

"to be fair" you can't really lay all the blame at the door of Sega/SI. At the end of the day they were victims of an attack that caused them as much of if not more of a headache.

Personally I bought the game a couple of days after release and installed/activated it with a minimal of fuss that took a couple of extra minutes.

See this is what I don't understand. The increased depth and realism should only be a problem if you demand the game be played at the same pace as CM97/98. If you slow your rate of games down and take the time to explore and enjoy all the other areas of management that are now so important, there is no reason for the game to be beyond your ability to play.

The game is not beyond my ability to play, I can master any game given enough time. The grievence if you want to call it that, that I have with the game is that it is so complex tactically that people who dont possess the relevant knowledge of real world football have to use third party resources(ie the forums) to understand to make your backline and midfield more intune with each other and not leave gaping holes. The sliders are too ambiguous and for people who haven't got the time to fiddle with all the intricate settings it gets very frustrating and that, for me at least, reduces the fun factor. Now I'm not saying that I only enjoy the game when I am winning, quite the contrary, some of my best moments on the game have been at struggling teams. But the first few months of gameplay on this version were just so infuriating that I nearly traded the game in. Seeing big hole in my tactics getting exploited by the AI was heart breaking especially as I couldn't fix them. The inconsistancy of my early tactics were a six nil win would be followed by a seven nil drubbing and not being able to understand why was frustrating and the manual was useless. A very very basic explanation of the tactical sliders that left me feeling more confused than when I began. I'm not the only surely who has felt like this.

So greater realism is fine, in fact brilliant BUT as a game evolves and such a fundamental change to one of the key aspects of the game is made, namely the removal of arrows in the tactics, then the explanation and help included within the game/manual must evolve too.

DRM is great. You don't need the game in at start up.

Yeah putting the disk in the machine when you want to play the game is a real hardship!, but being online trying to work around softachors shortcomings for 3 hours, then having to try 40+ combinations of I 1 0 O was a real breeze though! Jeez! The attack on the servers was a successful act of wilful misbehaviour. Piracy is an act of wilful misbehaviour...do you see a pattern? Trying to prevent one enabled another to happen and probably didnt prevent the former happening fully anyway. SI /FM are high profile, of course they will be targets so making the product susceptabe, which DRM did, to attack is exactly the sort of thing SI/Sega should be preventing surely?, or is it always "someone elses fault" when something goes wrong? !