1st time at LLM - Any advice

Hi all, i am about to embark in a lower league career for the first time in FM. Until now i have always enjoyed going championship teams but im now keen on starting at the very bottom and building a club up from nothing.

I would appreciate any advice anyone could give me to get me started. I havent picked my club yet either so suggestions are welcome. Any advice at all from coached to affiliates to tactics to club selection would be great. Really aything you can think of.

Please dont name players that i can or should be signing though as i will find out that stuff from my own mistakes. I am particularly interested in affiliate clubs though and which ones people have had most success with.

Thanks folks. Look forward to hearing from you.

Hi all, i am about to embark in a lower league career for the first time in FM. Until now i have always enjoyed going championship teams but im now keen on starting at the very bottom and building a club up from nothing.

I would appreciate any advice anyone could give me to get me started. I havent picked my club yet either so suggestions are welcome. Any advice at all from coached to affiliates to tactics to club selection would be great. Really aything you can think of.

Please dont name players that i can or should be signing though as i will find out that stuff from my own mistakes. I am particularly interested in affiliate clubs though and which ones people have had most success with.

Thanks folks. Look forward to hearing from you.

Spend a LONG time clicking through free transfers. And I don't mean 5 or 10 minutes. I spent a week searching through. Right-click on free players, and if your coach thinks they would be a "good" signing, grab em as fast as you can. Even "decent" might be ok.

Also trials are handy, they don't cost you money. Give you a chance to cast your eye over them.

Re-train players for different positions to give your squad some depth.

ie. don't buy a back-up left back. Just get a CB to retrain there.

Cheers Swarf. I will take my time on this one. Im determined to be successful ay LLM.

Im trying to decide which club to go but would love suggestions from the forum readers on this. Anyone??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Spend a LONG time clicking through free transfers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spend absolutely NO time clicking through that list, (in fact don't ever even look at that list).

Employ 2 scouts, send them out to look for players and sign any that look decent.

Perhaps I could suggest you going on holiday for a season and then trying dafuge's challenge and managing one of the teams that gets promoted into Conference North/South.

If you don't mind managing in another Nation then maybe you could ask Frank.

My advice is just take your time and do w hatever feels natural.

If the "only sign players that you have scouted" rule seems a bit too extreme then simply don't bother. Just decide what you want to do with YOUR game, (but then stick to that way of playing).

Good luck.

Fair enough.

The biggest key to LLM success is loans-in.

Make use of every loan you possibly can, and try to set them for 0% of wages. The only thing better than a free transfer is a player who is absolutely free! (If you have a feeder club, don't wait for them to offer their Reserves to you, go bid for them! Other than that, follow the "Offered for Loan" list carefully.)

Keep your wage bill low low low. That means, as soon as you've identified a player as deadwood, he's straight on the transfer list. You may need to cut his asking price to ZERO, that's okay, as long as you can get his wages off the books. If nobody'll buy 'em, find out how much it'll cost to offer them Mutual Termination.

You can't afford to have a Reserve and Under-18 team. Don't even bother. Grey players will fill out the ranks, that's what they're there for.

Since your goal is to promote, don't lock up players to long-term contracts unless you think they can do the job at the next division up.

Think of the club as a business. You aren't in the business of collecting Premiership-quality players (yet!). So, like any other business, you need to buy low, and sell high. When an offer comes in that you "can't refuse", don't refuse it! Remember, that value is going to be different than it is as a Premiership club - as a Conference club, I found a £250,000 offer for my best player to be well worth taking.

Lastly, be patient - as anybody who's played dafuge's challenge will tell you, success isn't going to happen overnight.

Thanks jimbo. Have read some of your posts before so i really appreciate your input. I am looking through Dafuges challenge just now and i think i'll try the holiday thing for a year.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:

Fair enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't having a pop, but I didn't even know that that list was there for ages and you just sort of get used to living without it.

He wants a challenge so that's why I suggested not using it.

Sorry if I came across a little blunt.

I don't use a list. I filter the search engine to suit my requirements. Then I sift through it to find suitable playing staff. This requires patience, but in the end you find some gems. In a way, this is more of a "challenge" I suppose. Rather than letting your scouts do the work. They might not find the players you find yourself. Worked for me.

It also depends on him he wants a LLM experience or a LLaMa experience.

Stewart, the term LLM could refer to either - I tend to think of it as "lower league manager", but there's a forum on the boards called the "LLM Forum" which really play by LLaMa rules.

Those rules are outlined here: LLM Forum Rules and Guidelines

Most of those rules will make the game even more challenging!

So, whether to use them or not depends on your capacity to deal with frustration, setback, and failure - but if you are using them, the entire LLM community will be very supportive for you.

If you're not using them, or approach that forum with a lack of respect, you'll get run out of town.

I tend to play by most of the rules, at least the last time I read them, for my "serious" games, and none of the rules for my "just having a laugh" games.

Thanks amaroq. I just had a quick look at those guidelines and found it slightly overwhelming. Lol. I didnt know people took it so seriously. (well i guess i did, but it always surprises me). Many thanks for the linkage though.

I will be playing the game pretty much by my own rules but i will not be searching the forums for tips on players or tactics.

I suppose i will be sticking fairly close to those rules but more by coincidence rather than anything else.

Appreciate all the advice so far guys. Big help and the support is nice. Keep it coming if you think of anything else.

As has been said, keep your players on short-term (one year - occasional 2-year) contracts unless you're absolutely sure they can take the next level, i.e. your coaches see him as a good L2/L1 player.

LoL. I did too! And wound up sticking to the rules more by coincidence than anything else as well.

Support is key, too, I think - whether its a mate who you can babble to about your latest trials and tribulations, the LLM forum, the Dafuge's Challenge thread, or the FM Stories forum, I think we get more enjoyment out of the struggle by sharing it with others..

Its kinda like international travel. Every international trip has at least one awful experience - but those always make the best stories later.

"So there I was, hiking through this tunnel, at midnight, that I expected to be only 100 metres long, only it turned out to be one of the longest tunnels under the Alps! I didn't come out the other side until 3am! I was totally lost - I didn't even know what country I was in anymore! All the hostels were closed, but there was this trucker..."

The other guys have covered some of this, but the three biggest things for me are:-

1.) Good Parent club.

2.) Strip down team to the bare essentials 16 players and half a dozon youth players will probably be enough.

3.) Work on your corners, I played as Bromley in Blue Square South and 25% of my goal came from corners, probably picked up 15 points that I wouldn't have otherwise.

A bit of pace can make a difference at this level as well.

Have you choosen at team yet?

Something i do spend a long time on is looking through all international U-21 and U-18 teams in europe. It's along the same lines as swarfs tactic (which i also do). I prefer my own judgement over a scout esspecially at lower league as you may want to play in a specific way (pacey, passing, target man etc).

I hope you enjoy the challenge i started lower league management years back and find it more enjoyable than playing as big teams.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:

Support is key, too, I think - whether its a mate who you can babble to about your latest trials and tribulations, the LLM forum, the Dafuge's Challenge thread, or the FM Stories forum, I think we get more enjoyment out of the struggle by sharing it with others..

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true, if it wasn't for places on these forums for me to discuss my game with other people I probably would have stopped playing years ago.

same here. i can never play a single player game for long these days. luckily for me the missus is very keen FM player and so is one of my friend, so we manage to keep a network game running regularly. Half of the fun, as some of you pointed out, is talk about various aspects of the game such as tactics, players, struggles etc etc.

Ok. I applied for and was offered the job at Hednesford Town. Very proud to have accepted this offer.

Wish me luck guys. Here goes. 2008/09 season begins here....

I am considering starting a thread in the FM stories section to follow my progress in this game. Im quite excited now.

Thanks again for all your helpful comments. Feel free to keep them coming.

I thought the whole point of LLM is not to get tips or hints from anyone else?

Unless you are doing it independantly of course. And aren't thinking of posting this in the actual LLM section.

Posting it in the Stories place is a good way to keep out of trouble.

For Me....

1. Staff. Get the best staff available. Its vital that your players at that level get the best training possible

2. Sign any decent players (5* or better) on Full Time contracts. It will cost you a bit more, but they will train full time, and improve better.

3. As has been said, scout the hell out of where ever you can. It's important to find players all year round, as you never know when you'll need one.!

4. Tactics. At this level, tactics are everything. Visit the Tactics forum, or teach yourself, but spend time developing a successful tactic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Spend a LONG time clicking through free transfers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spend absolutely NO time clicking through that list, (in fact don't ever even look at that list). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why wouldn't you look at that list?

That's the list of players you and your staff are aware of in the world. Why wouldn't you try and sign any of them?

To not look at that list would be like taking over managing a club and then never again reading the newspaper or the internet or watching football or sports news on tv.

IRL right now I have a fair knowledge of quite a number of real-life football players and I've never sent scouts to look at them (I don't have any scouts because IRL I'm not a football manager).

But were I to take over a Lower League club I wouldn't suddenly forget all the players I know of. On top of that there would be all the players my supporting staff - coaches, etc - and affiliated clubs knew about too.

As a club we could come up with a shortlist of several hundred suitable players for our team before the scouts had even stepped out the door.

Because he asked about LLM, not managing in a lowly league.

Yeah and I want to know why you can't use the player search function in LLM?

I had a look in your forum and LLM seems to be about realism. Why then do you guys pretend the only people in the entire club who know anything about players are the scouts?

What exactly is the point of a club's scouting knowledge screen (which is what affects how many players appear on the player search screen) when you pretend your club doesn't have an scouting knowledge other than the players your scouts physically go out and watch?

You're just asking for your club to be carved up by your opposition in the transfer market - because the AI clearly does use the player search screen.

Read the guidelines link at the top of the LLM page.

All is explained there.

If you don't want to stick the the rules there is absolutely nothing and nobody making you do so.

I read them.

It's not explained very well at all.

The only-sign-who-you-can-scout rule seems either to be an outdated rule from an earlier version of FM or it's written by somebody who doesn't understand what the player search function represents.

I have no intention of playing by anyone's rules other than by using the tools SI have provided - which includes player search.

I was just wondering why you guys make LLM any harder than you need to. And why have you chosen such an arbitrary restriction? Why not include a restriction on how managers may set up their coaching or something equally as random?

Using the player search screen is more realistic than not using it. How can you say otherwise, beside your continued bleating about 'that's the rules'. I know it's the rules; I want to hear an explanation for why.

Snowell the player search screen is not off limits in LLM.

Some will never use it, others will use it to target players that they wish their scouts to have a look at & scouting before buying is the key element, what people wont do is use the filter options to narrow down the list by attributes or other stats that would not been known without 1st scouting the player.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have no intention of playing by anyone's rules other than by using the tools SI have provided - which includes player search. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better get that editor cranked up then .

And what's more, I don't think that anyone suggested that you should.

Play the game however you want.

The key is looking at other British clubs, not English, I remember in 07 I signed a youngster from Connah's Quay (Wales) for absolutely nothing and in a few years he was sold to Chelsea for about a million + some latter fee. Later he played for Villa and Middlesborough.

And if you have a good player who is <21 years old you can try to tie him up on a longer deal as he will eventually get better

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Better get that editor cranked up then . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wouldn't make a difference - I don't use real players and I go on holidays for at least 30 years (to generate statistical histories) before I start a new game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barside:

what people wont do is use the filter options to narrow down the list by attributes or other stats that would not been known without 1st scouting the player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't that be solved by turning attribute masking on?

Fog of war doesn't hide all attributes all of the time.

As I mentioned player search screen can be used to simulate some of the real world databases but only as a resource tool to detail specific assignments for your scouts.

Personaly I don't use the search screen & just send my scouts to where ever my board will allow.

What i do is as soon as the options available get a parent team.. if your in the BSS/N aim for an affiliate in aboput league two.. choose one with a big team list and talented players in the reserve team..

when you have one i got (wycombe) basically sign basically every player in their reserve team on a loan at 0% wages you should be able to get most of the players..

i would say when you start of dont worry about bsigning free players unless their great because most teams are on tight wage budgets and you downt want to be in the red, as that WILL get you sacked,

Following this i would sign the best scout you can, try to loan every player he reccommends some will come some wont but if you get a gooden its worth the effort..

but above my advice and everyone elses i would say for maximum enjoyment do it your way and trust your instincts.. mine have saved me many times even against my logic...

Good luck

Indeed. The ultimate goal of playing a game is to enjoy yourself.

If that enjoyment comes from doing as !.m.! suggests, by all means do so. If it comes from signing every possible player on the Free Transfer list your AssMan thinks would be good, by all means do so.

The LLM forum, for those a tad confused, encourages users to play the game in as realistic manner as the game allows. If that floats your boat - and it isn't to everyone's taste - by all means follow their suggestions. My own history of LLM patronage should mean nothing - you bought the game, you decide how best to enjoy it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:

Yeah and I want to know why you can't use the player search function in LLM?

I had a look in your forum and LLM seems to be about realism. Why then do you guys pretend the only people in the entire club who know anything about players are the scouts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Snoweel, I'm not an LLM Forum regular, but I used to lurk there, so I think I can explain "why". I'm presenting this information in the name of increasing understanding, and not to argue whether its right or wrong.

The one thing to keep in mind with LLM Forum guys is, their basic mind-set is, "What if I sat down, today, to manage a semi-pro club, with few or no scouts, that probably doesn't even have a computer as good as the one I'm sitting on?"

Obviously, if I'm Manchester United, I've got teams of people scouring the globe, and a database of all players the club has ever taken the briefest of looks at - but as Puddlemere United, just promoted to the Blue Square North, gosh, even my coaches are part-timers who have to spend time at their day job, and the club may not even own a video camera.

The LLM forum has its roots in the days before Attribute Masking, and before Scouting Knowledge, when the Player Search screen actually could show you all attributes for all players in the world.

Then, there was an obvious danger that you could just go to the Player Search screen, and customize a Filter to show you, say, all strikers with Pace, Composure, and Finishing of 15 or above. Alternately, you could look at the "Physical" attributes view, and sort by Pace, or whatever is important to you. By then looking at their other attributes, you could find which of those guys were going to rock the world, and bid for them immediately. This was, obviously, a bit too easy, and a bit unrealistic!

As you point out, we've since seen some features added - often after a fairly intense discussion of it in the LLM forum and/or GQ - to cut down the power of the Player Search screen until its reached its current state.

The LLM forum regulars tend to debate those issues, and inevitably some hard-liners feel that "they don't go far enough", and others are pleased that the game has taken a step towards realism - so you get some disagreement about whether to use the feature or not.

Nowadays, "Don't use the Search screen" is no longer a "set in stone" thing, and even the LLM rules thread says

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Some LLaMa’s use the search screen to shortlist players in their area and then send off their scouts to find out how good a player he really is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... while others stay away from it.

Personally?

For my "Serious" games, such as my FM Story, I have let myself use the Search screen to find "Transfer Listed" players, "Loan Listed" players, and players without a club - especially once I had the club up at the Championship/Premiership level. But, I won't sign a player without scouting him, and I won't use the "Filter" or the various "View by Attribute" Search screens.

For my "Just having a laugh" game, heck, anything goes, its all about the whim of the moment!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Spend a LONG time clicking through free transfers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spend absolutely NO time clicking through that list, (in fact don't ever even look at that list).

Employ 2 scouts, send them out to look for players and sign any that look decent.

Perhaps I could suggest you going on holiday for a season and then trying dafuge's challenge and managing one of the teams that gets promoted into Conference North/South.

If you don't mind managing in another Nation then maybe you could ask Frank.

My advice is just take your time and do w hatever feels natural.

If the "only sign players that you have scouted" rule seems a bit too extreme then simply don't bother. Just decide what you want to do with YOUR game, (but then stick to that way of playing).

Good luck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's apot on....get some decent scouts and they will find you the best of the available players.

Also, I agree with Loan players....just go to the reserves from the teams in the top division...failing that, have a look in the u21 team of your chosen nation....

Play with a DM also, all your players are going to be really poor so I find playing with a DM will shore up your naturally leaky defence.

only sign players that are pacy, and never sign anyone over the age of 32, regardless of stats...they tire quickly and are generally useless for a third of the match...definitely don't sign any defenders over the age of 30, their stats deteriorate vastly over a short period of time due to age and especially if you sign an aging professional you will be left with a player on a large salary who you can't play.

Always encourage your players and never say you expect a win. They can't handle the pressure in the lower leagues.

Again i would like to thank everyone for the response to my question. I have still to begin my game proper due to the fact that i work 16 hour days fri - sat, but i will definately be posting some form of FM story in the appropriate section, once its all up and running of course.

As for the small debate i seem to have started on this page about the difference between LLM and managing clubs in lower leagues, i feel i should just clear this up.

I wanted to start a game at the very bottom of the pile in English football and work my way up to the top with that club. This is what i thought was LLM or in my limited understanding - Lower league management.

I have to admit that i was a little unaware of the extent of how serious people take this game. I didnt even realise there were guidelines for LLM. I apologise if i have created a misunderstanding here. The game is just a game to me and its one i have enjoyed playing since the very first Championship Manager game was released (by Domark if im not mistaken).

As far as realism goes, i will not and have not asked for suggestions on who to sign or specific tactics. My thinking behind asking for a bit of advice was - to put it in realistic terms - If i was starting out my first job in management and was a bit lost about how to survive, id probably ring someone i knew for a bit of support or advice. If i had Alex Fergusons number, then id probably ask him how he acheived his success. By asking for help on this General Questions page, i am only asking for the advice of those who have trodden this path before me.

So far the advice i have received has been both encouraging and inspiring. To have guys like Jimbokav and Amaroq give me their thoughts si9mply increased my excitement for the game. In fact Amaroqs posts in the stories section coupled with the fantastic Kipfizh Bandits adventure were the reasons i wanted to set myself this challenge in the first place.

The advice has been great. Very supportive. But please dont flood the page with arguments about whether or not i should be asking for help. Some advice can be contradictory but its merely one persons suggestions as to how the game should be played. No one is forcing anyone to abide by any rules.

I dont know why i decided to go into such detail about this. Something annoyed me i think about the tone of some of the earlier posts. I hope that i can now "stay out of trouble" having cleared up my motivation behind my game.

Thanks again guys.

Stewart. You sound FAR too sensible to be posting in here .

LLM was a way of getting back my enjoyment of the game, I was an old school cm2/cm3 player and enjoyed those games but around cm4 I lost interest.

I tried one of the FMs (Possibly 06) but never got into it.

Saw FM08 and decided to have another go, I still struggled to get a game going, until I stumbled upon LLM and played the game the way they suggest, I've been thoroughly enjoying the game ever since. It's not for everyone though.

The lows of llm such as being relegated make the highs much more enjoyable.

As for your game just get yourself some scouts use them a lot, I just use a basic tactic works well enough for me, good luck and enjoy.

I always pick a lower league team when I play and I have never failed to gain promotion through the leagues to the highest levels. It can just take time.

Personally I don't trust scouts as much as my own judgement. I know what players will work and what I'm looking for. I spend a lot of time scouring out of contract players or ones transfer listed for cheap. There's also a chance that if you are at a very small club that you will not have any scouts or only one of them. I know that my club will not fund scouts traveling out of Europe.

I also personally look for young talent that is definitely under 18, but prefer even younger. I develop home grown talent and either they work their way to the senior team or I sell them for cash to help build my senior team.

It is important to keep your payroll down, as this can mushroom on you quickly and then you have money problems. If you are at a small club you will always fight this, as when you start bringing in better players and moving up, salaries will rise.

This is how I've approach LLM in general:

First off, check out your team, and decide where you need backup, if anyone needs to be offloaded ASAP, and who look to be your best players. Look at your staff. Trim any dead wood as and when you can afford to do so. You should regularly check whether any better staff are available that you can afford. Just as with players, don't tie staff to long contracts unless they're better than you'd expect at your level.

Trawl both loans and free transfers, it's not an either/or thing.

In lower leagues, having a player that is very good at just one thing can be better than a player who is mediocre at a lot. If you have a striker with high jumping and heading, you want a winger that can cross to well to his head. It doesn't matter if the striker has two left feet or the midfielder can't run - keep it simple and exploit their strengths.

Physical attributes can be especially effective if the opposition is weak in those areas - which is often the case in lower leagues.

Do keep a few backup players around, but retraining is your friend. Look at player's attributes and train them so they can play in another position in your formation. Most DCs can make good DMs or fullbacks for example. Have a fast defender and one with good jumping; same for strikers; pair them up against the opposition so you exploit your advantages and negate the opposition's (your fast striker vs their slow defender; your tall defender vs their big man striker). A big physical attribute mismatch in your favour can make a BIG difference.

Signing a versatile player that can play all across the back or across midfield can be very handy for dealing with any injury crises.

Try to keep a couple of players with totally different strengths in your squad and on the bench to react in matches. This gives you far more options. You can sub in a good tackler for a pacey winger to shore up a game or bring on a tall striker if their DC has 4 jumping, for example. Shuffle your team in anticipation of a tougher match. Don't forget to check you opposition's team before the match to see if they have any particular weaknesses you can exploit or strengths you need to deal with, and select your team as appropriate.

You won't be able to afford any decent established players, but a tasty youngster without a club might be much more willing to sign. Old players winding down their careers can provide a solid backbone with their experience and are often available on frees. It can be worth looking at players on the transfer list a division or two higher than you too. If players are unhappy and listed, they'll often accept a wage cut and the team will be pleased to offload them for a free.

Get a halfway decent scout and send him out.

A good cup run can bring in some real cash if you get a bit further - so don't ignore the cups.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snoweel:

Yeah and I want to know why you can't use the player search function in LLM?

I had a look in your forum and LLM seems to be about realism. Why then do you guys pretend the only people in the entire club who know anything about players are the scouts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Snoweel, I'm not an LLM Forum regular, but I used to lurk there, so I think I can explain "why". I'm presenting this information in the name of increasing understanding, and not to argue whether its right or wrong.

The one thing to keep in mind with LLM Forum guys is, their basic mind-set is, "What if I sat down, today, to manage a semi-pro club, with few or no scouts, that probably doesn't even have a computer as good as the one I'm sitting on?"

Obviously, if I'm Manchester United, I've got teams of people scouring the globe, and a database of all players the club has ever taken the briefest of looks at - but as Puddlemere United, just promoted to the Blue Square North, gosh, even my coaches are part-timers who have to spend time at their day job, and the club may not even own a video camera.

The LLM forum has its roots in the days before Attribute Masking, and before Scouting Knowledge, when the Player Search screen actually could show you all attributes for all players in the world.

Then, there was an obvious danger that you could just go to the Player Search screen, and customize a Filter to show you, say, all strikers with Pace, Composure, and Finishing of 15 or above. Alternately, you could look at the "Physical" attributes view, and sort by Pace, or whatever is important to you. By then looking at their other attributes, you could find which of those guys were going to rock the world, and bid for them immediately. This was, obviously, a bit too easy, and a bit unrealistic!

As you point out, we've since seen some features added - often after a fairly intense discussion of it in the LLM forum and/or GQ - to cut down the power of the Player Search screen until its reached its current state.

The LLM forum regulars tend to debate those issues, and inevitably some hard-liners feel that "they don't go far enough", and others are pleased that the game has taken a step towards realism - so you get some disagreement about whether to use the feature or not.

Nowadays, "Don't use the Search screen" is no longer a "set in stone" thing, and even the LLM rules thread says

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Some LLaMa’s use the search screen to shortlist players in their area and then send off their scouts to find out how good a player he really is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... while others stay away from it.

Personally?

For my "Serious" games, such as my FM Story, I have let myself use the Search screen to find "Transfer Listed" players, "Loan Listed" players, and players without a club - especially once I had the club up at the Championship/Premiership level. But, I won't sign a player without scouting him, and I won't use the "Filter" or the various "View by Attribute" Search screens.

For my "Just having a laugh" game, heck, anything goes, its all about the whim of the moment! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only way I play FM is the LLM way, however I've sometimes used the search screen and sent scouts to players I like the look of. It's never really occurred to me about the filter function, it never crossed my mind just how "unethical" it is. From now on, I'm staying away from the search screen and only using my scouts - if I have any!

Stewert, I've written down everything I did to take Gateshead from being previously unplayable to the Premier League.

It can be found here.

It doesn't totally follow strict LLM rules, and some of the tips will probably already have been covered in this thread. But you might find something useful.

Good luck.

I have enjoyed a lot my Fm2008 LLM game. Just waited until june 20th 2008, chose Merthyr Tydfil and asked for all assistants applications. I only signed welsh players scouted. And I only scouted players that my scouts suggested and those in wales u19. Since I couldn't have a welsh scout until one season passed, I had to survive with first freds, some loans and lots of grey players.

In a couple of seasons I had a good tactic, and quickly I had good regens and some mature players to teach PPMs. I cheated a bit because I had to tweak my corners setting as people in this forum suggested, and then my team improved a lot (10 goals more every season don't hurt).

In 13 seasons I had promoted 5 times and finally played in EPL. best position has been 3rd, I find very difficult to success with welsh players but it's quite interesting. I have a very promising goakeeper from my academy, only a good defender, lots of interesting midfielders (best has to play as defender) and a couple of good strikers (not from my academy) and a quite promising striker who has good PPMs and a value of 7M€ aged 20 years, but he seems to stop progressing and he still is not a good EPL player

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wanted to start a game at the very bottom of the pile in English football and work my way up to the top with that club. This is what i thought was LLM or in my limited understanding - Lower league management. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do think we (as a community) get a lot of unintended confusion by the use of the initials LLM for the LLM Forum. Its really easy to jump into it expecting "A forum for people managing in lower leagues" and not "A forum for people playing by exacting rules."

That's why I tried to make the distinction between LLM and LLaMa. I recognize that that's probably a lost cause, but I wonder whether we'd make the forum experience better for n00bs, LLM Forum regulars, and others alike by simply renaming that forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So far the advice i have received has been both encouraging and inspiring. To have guys like Jimbokav and Amaroq give me their thoughts si9mply increased my excitement for the game. In fact Amaroqs posts in the stories section coupled with the fantastic Kipfizh Bandits adventure were the reasons i wanted to set myself this challenge in the first place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't leave one of my readers in the dust, now could I?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i will definately be posting some form of FM story in the appropriate section, once its all up and running of course </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mind linking to it (or mentioning which forum you decide on) from this thread? I'd like to follow your experience, and may miss it otherwise.

Ok i know that im gonna get slated by many for being computer illiterate, but i how do i post a link to my fm story?

Just paste the URL of your story page into a message here, using the "URL" tag thing next to the smiley face icon.

As for the issue of LLM vs lower league management confusion, abbreviations are the bane of modern society so just avoid them

Personally whenever I manage a team in the lower leagues I use my own set of "rules" to have a game that I will find most enjoyable - generally somewhere between as realistic as possible and making use of whatever is available to me within the FM game (i.e. not editors and scout programs etc), usually closer to the former than the latter.

I think you mistake the "rules" of the LLM forum though when you say they take it very seriously - they are just guidelines for one way of enjoying the game, but most of all they are forum guidelines rather than game guidelines. There is an implicit trust amongst regulars (which takes a bit of time to be gained by newbies, dependent on what you write when you visit that forum!) that you are using the LLM guidelines within your game and not just by what you are saying in the forum.

They have just as much fun playing that way as others do though and it is no different to having guidelines in any of the challenges that people do. Personally I always like to try and build a squad from my own youth system, but I don't have it as a hard and fast rule because I have never found it totally possible so it's just silly spoiling my own game by making that a rule.

I do find it far more fun just to let my scouts find me players though - it's more realistic certainly, but mainly I'm just lazy and can't be bothered trawling through loads of unattached players and losing interest in my game before the end of the first pre-season. I like to build my team at a leisurely pace so promotion first season is rarely on the cards - quite often I bumble around for the first half of the season and then my team clicks and storms up the table, but too late to challenge for promotion.