why is football manager so hard

i have been playing fm since about cm01/02 and every year the game gets more complex.i am currently playing fm 07 on xbox 360 and fm 08 on pc but cant seem to grasp the tactial sliders. long gone are the days where you could just pick if you wanted attacking or defensive instead of trying to find out exactly where to put a slider

i have been playing fm since about cm01/02 and every year the game gets more complex.i am currently playing fm 07 on xbox 360 and fm 08 on pc but cant seem to grasp the tactial sliders. long gone are the days where you could just pick if you wanted attacking or defensive instead of trying to find out exactly where to put a slider

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it.

Whilst i agree, Shiny, there is a school of thought (that I partly subscribe to) that the game is becoming so complex that it's threatening to alienate those who play the game for fun. I'm sure i'm not alone in thinking that whilst it's great to be challenge, FM is not as much fun as it used to be. Sometimes it feels like a second job, in terms of input, stress and time spent on it.

FM raises the bar every year, and it's always great to buy the new edition, sampling the new features and pushing yourself to be the best, but it's not always fun anymore, something that CM01/02, for example, never failed to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Norville Rodgers:

Whilst i agree, Shiny, there is a school of thought (that I partly subscribe to) that the game is becoming so complex that it's threatening to alienate those who play the game for fun. I'm sure i'm not alone in thinking that whilst it's great to be challenge, FM is not as much fun as it used to be. Sometimes it feels like a second job, in terms of input, stress and time spent on it.

FM raises the bar every year, and it's always great to buy the new edition, sampling the new features and pushing yourself to be the best, but it's not always fun anymore, something that CM01/02, for example, never failed to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly why SI should include skill level differentiation desired for the participant.

My word, if SI insists on keeping only one skill level, then, at the very least, figure out a way for the AI to use our hands on rating to at least mirror the amount of difficulty associated with the game. (i.e. if I have a hands on rating of 15, the game should adjust automatically to a difficulty level appropriate for my interest level in the finer intricacies of the game).

I also believe that it should be easy to assume that a sunday league player wants an easier game than an international superstar. Therefore, the difficulty levels are already determined within the framework of the game.

(waiting for the flames to start)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shiny223:

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they cant get to grips with the sliders?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by copperhorse21:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Norville Rodgers:

Whilst i agree, Shiny, there is a school of thought (that I partly subscribe to) that the game is becoming so complex that it's threatening to alienate those who play the game for fun. I'm sure i'm not alone in thinking that whilst it's great to be challenge, FM is not as much fun as it used to be. Sometimes it feels like a second job, in terms of input, stress and time spent on it.

FM raises the bar every year, and it's always great to buy the new edition, sampling the new features and pushing yourself to be the best, but it's not always fun anymore, something that CM01/02, for example, never failed to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly why SI should include skill level differentiation desired for the participant.

My word, if SI insists on keeping only one skill level, then, at the very least, figure out a way for the AI to use our hands on rating to at least mirror the amount of difficulty associated with the game. (i.e. if I have a hands on rating of 15, the game should adjust automatically to a difficulty level appropriate for my interest level in the finer intricacies of the game).

I also believe that it should be easy to assume that a sunday league player wants an easier game than an international superstar. Therefore, the difficulty levels are already determined within the framework of the game.

(waiting for the flames to start) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Skill levels are a no-no, as SI have enough of a problem getting it right as it is, let alone on different levels.

Anyway the problem with FM isnt that the game is hard, its that the player is constantly fighting to work out what works- be it through the needlessly complex tactical interface that is a barrier between what we want to put across and what is actually put across.

Then there is the "logic" of the media and team-talks where from experience what works isnt always logical, and tbh the best way seems to be just to pander to your players to maintain morale no matter how badly they have played.

So FMs difficulty isnt so much to do with clever AI, rather it is down to the tools the player has to work with failing to improve as the game becomes more complex.

Once youve sussed it the game is as formulaic to win as it has always been, sadly it doesnt seem to have that magic anymore, as not only have obvious issues been ignored (some for more than one release) but new and exciting features are thin on the ground or at best paperthin and never fully formed or developed as they could be.

The game is great. Where is the fun in choosing a bog standard 4-4-2 and having your team win every match with out having to tweak your tactics and use your brain to try and beat your opppostition? I like the detail.

The training, scouting, media, youth teams etc have all really improved over the last 5 years and should not be changed to suit people who want an easy game. There's plenty of other management games on the market?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by champmanman:

The game is great. Where is the fun in choosing a bog standard 4-4-2 and having your team win every match with out having to tweak your tactics and use your brain to try and beat your opppostition? I like the detail.

The training, scouting, media, youth teams etc have all really improved over the last 5 years and should not be changed to suit people who want an easy game. There's plenty of other management games on the market? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% correct

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oggie26:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by champmanman:

The game is great. Where is the fun in choosing a bog standard 4-4-2 and having your team win every match with out having to tweak your tactics and use your brain to try and beat your opppostition? I like the detail.

The training, scouting, media, youth teams etc have all really improved over the last 5 years and should not be changed to suit people who want an easy game. There's plenty of other management games on the market? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% correct </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree too.

The game requires much more time, thought and input. It is harder than say '06 because of the increased variables added in each version. On 06' I don't think I changed tactics once, I signed the players and basically it was a case of clicking continue forever. Now the AI is a bit smarter, they tweak tactics, change styles and make good signings. In order to succeed in 08' much more work is required on the users part - no more 1 tactic for every game mentality as it just cant cut it.

Difficulty levels and such like are not needed. All that's needed imo is improved staff, particularly the assistant manager, who can provide useful feedback for those that want it.

This way struggling users can get some proper hints as to why their tactics aren't working and about what they're doing wrong in general. And far from taking away from the realism, this will actually add to it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

Difficulty levels and such like are not needed. All that's needed imo is improved staff, particularly the assistant manager, who can provide useful feedback for those that want it.

This way struggling users can get some proper hints as to why their tactics aren't working and about what they're doing wrong in general. And far from taking away from the realism, this will actually add to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this too but how long have this community been saying this? 3 years? Probably longer tbh.

I think that the improved feedback on tactics would help those struggling with the game. Especially new players, I cant imagine picking this game up and trying to play as my first version. CM2 was far more straightforward, less variables etc. I guess those of us who have been playing longer know how the game works, and each new addition has been staggered so we have time to "get used" to it.

you can go to options and have your manager do contracts and handle training so all you have to do is answer the media buy players and pick the team, what do you want, just pick a formation and simulate the match, for me that would be boring, if you dont like how hard it is play a different game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

you can go to options and have your manager do contracts and handle training so all you have to do is answer the media buy players and pick the team, what do you want, just pick a formation and simulate the match, for me that would be boring, if you dont like how hard it is play a different game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you've completely missed the point. Yes you can leave training as it is and have your assistant handle some contract renewals, but that certainly doesn't leave only answering the media, buying players and picking the team as you state. The biggest problem for some is the one thing you've missed out - tactics.

I'm immensly enjoying the game and have managed to make some successful tactics, but I can certainly understand how it can be difficult and confusing for some.

i play the game for fun.

the fun comes from the game being difficult.

although having said that if you just pay alittle bit of attention to the training and tactics then it isn't so difficult.

it's not like you have to change them all the time.

I think some people are needlessly making tactics more complex than they need to be.

There are 2 types of manager in my opinion.

1. Makes a custom tactic to suit his players giving them all indivdual instructions, spending a lot of time working out the faults and tweaking it etc.... (Mourinho)

2. Uses a bog standard tactic and rather than spending hours tweaking it, just sends the scouts out for better players and players that suit the tactic. (Keegan)

I am firmly in the 2nd camp, I have won 2 promotions and 2 cups using this method without changing the tactic in 8 seasons. I play llm so I've done this with crap teams, so surely it'll work for the big teams where you have lots of money to spend.

It is hard because the match engine is crap

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

you can go to options and have your manager do contracts and handle training so all you have to do is answer the media buy players and pick the team, what do you want, just pick a formation and simulate the match, for me that would be boring, if you dont like how hard it is play a different game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you've completely missed the point. Yes you can leave training as it is and have your assistant handle some contract renewals, but that certainly doesn't leave only answering the media, buying players and picking the team as you state. The biggest problem for some is the one thing you've missed out - tactics.

I'm immensly enjoying the game and have managed to make some successful tactics, but I can certainly understand how it can be difficult and confusing for some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry i meant picking the team and tactics in one should have expanded, but i didnt get into tweaking tactics first few months i played fm and did well, just picked 4 4 2 then if i was losing went 4 4 3, never messed about with anything

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

you can go to options and have your manager do contracts and handle training so all you have to do is answer the media buy players and pick the team, what do you want, just pick a formation and simulate the match, for me that would be boring, if you dont like how hard it is play a different game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you've completely missed the point. Yes you can leave training as it is and have your assistant handle some contract renewals, but that certainly doesn't leave only answering the media, buying players and picking the team as you state. The biggest problem for some is the one thing you've missed out - tactics.

I'm immensly enjoying the game and have managed to make some successful tactics, but I can certainly understand how it can be difficult and confusing for some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry i meant picking the team and tactics in one should have expanded, but i didnt get into tweaking tactics first few months i played fm and did well, just picked 4 4 2 then if i was losing went 4 4 3, never messed about with anything </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But while that's good for you many people (myself not included) feel that finding a tactic that works is more trial and error than actually putting any knowledge into practice, or having any idea why what your doing works.

It's this thing of having to fumble around until you stumble upon something that works that I think is frustrating some people.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

Difficulty levels and such like are not needed. All that's needed imo is improved staff, particularly the assistant manager, who can provide useful feedback for those that want it.

This way struggling users can get some proper hints as to why their tactics aren't working and about what they're doing wrong in general. And far from taking away from the realism, this will actually add to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree with you chopper about ass manager. definetely needs revamp, think there should be more interactions regarding squad and meaby things like who is doing well in reserve squad and u18 squad.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

you can go to options and have your manager do contracts and handle training so all you have to do is answer the media buy players and pick the team, what do you want, just pick a formation and simulate the match, for me that would be boring, if you dont like how hard it is play a different game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you've completely missed the point. Yes you can leave training as it is and have your assistant handle some contract renewals, but that certainly doesn't leave only answering the media, buying players and picking the team as you state. The biggest problem for some is the one thing you've missed out - tactics.

I'm immensly enjoying the game and have managed to make some successful tactics, but I can certainly understand how it can be difficult and confusing for some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry i meant picking the team and tactics in one should have expanded, but i didnt get into tweaking tactics first few months i played fm and did well, just picked 4 4 2 then if i was losing went 4 4 3, never messed about with anything </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But while that's good for you many people (myself not included) feel that finding a tactic that works is more trial and error than actually putting any knowledge into practice, or having any idea why what your doing works.

It's this thing of having to fumble around until you stumble upon something that works that I think is frustrating some people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think it's more trial and error if you dont know what your doing.

if you have pacy wingers with good crossing for example then you get them to cross regularly,make forward runs and cross from the byline.

if you like to keep a CM deep then you put his mentality to normal or defensive and forward runs rarely and get him to try many through balls.

obvioulsy it depends on the sorts of players you have and the formation you want to try but it's not difficult.

i give 3 of my 4 mindifielders attacking mentality with the 1 CM normal so i at least have one midfielder back if we loose the ball.

wingers have forward runs but cross normally because i want them getting in field for goals too.

CB's are mentality defensive with the fullbacks attacking mentality

it's really not trial and error when you pay a little attention to the player stats.

I agree with jimbo5000. I enjoy the little features, e.g. the match day experience - that's fine - but when it comes to tactics I find it very difficult to understand. I usually find myself having to download a tactic, and when it all goes awry, I don't know much about how to turn things around. If I were to create my own tactic, it would generally require me to troll through the Tactics and Training Forum for a few hours to understand the sliders and all the other features.

I don't know about you, but I play the game for fun, and when I win it's fun. What's not fun is having to meticulously study the ins and outs of the tactics system in order to get that win.

Every games company knows that in order to increase fan base and sell more games, a game has to appeal to more people, i.e. those novices who aren't likely to have a PhD in Tactics and Training. That's why they introduced the advisor system in FM08, and I'd really like them to continue to make the game more accessible by simplifying the tactics as a reward for my patronage. One day I worry (although I don't lose sleep ) that the game will escape me in terms of it's complexity.

It's also known that different factors have either too much, or too little, of an impact on match performance. What I need to do in terms of mental preparation (i.e. team talks), tactical preparation, finding players with the right stats for their position, finding players with the right stats to work as a team, can be frustrating.

And even understanding all this, the tactical side of things, I've no doubt that the tactical feature isn't perfect. A change for FM09 would give the game a fresh, and simpler way of working with it. It's certainly something that SI should be working towards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

i think it's more trial and error if you dont know what your doing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I think that's the trouble. Many people, for whatever reason, no longer seem to know what they're doing.

I, like you, enjoy the game being hard and have no problem with the tactics side of it. But there's no denying that a lot of people on the forums do. And if I look at it objectively I can see why. Of course it doesn't help that at the moment it's impossible for many to tell that their formation is not working by studying the match engine. All a lot of people see is their tactic creating a lot of good looking chances that are missed or saved, just to get beaten by an opposition that has had little of the play. What is a player supposed to take from that in terms of improving? On the field the tactic's doing what you want, i.e. dominating the opposition and creating clear cut chances, yet you still lose. How do you go about improving a tactic when all the signs indicate it's working perfectly well?

Hopefully that will be fixed to some extent with the patch but I think many will still struggle to make sense of the tactics considering they do not have the knowledge of the tactical settings that AI managers seem to have.

I've said this in other threads so I'll keep it brief. The problem is not that it's complex but that it's complicated. The tactical interface is counter-intuitive. Compare it against the interface of cm08 and to be honest you have to say FM loses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

i think it's more trial and error if you dont know what your doing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I think that's the trouble. Many people, for whatever reason, no longer seem to know what they're doing.

I, like you, enjoy the game being hard and have no problem with the tactics side of it. But there's no denying that a lot of people on the forums do. And if I look at it objectively I can see why. Of course it doesn't help that at the moment it's impossible for many to tell that their formation is not working by studying the match engine. All a lot of people see is their tactic creating a lot of good looking chances that are missed or saved, just to get beaten by an opposition that has had little of the play. What is a player supposed to take from that in terms of improving? On the field the tactic's doing what you want, i.e. dominating the opposition and creating clear cut chances, yet you still lose. How do you go about improving a tactic when all the signs indicate it's working perfectly well?

Hopefully that will be fixed to some extent with the patch but I think many will still struggle to make sense of the tactics considering they do not have the knowledge of the tactical settings that AI managers seem to have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe, but you say it's more trial and error than putting any knowledge into practice, i say that if you put the knowledge into pratice then it isn't trial and error. not knowing about the knowledge would be trial and error but you dont have to study for months to get the smallest amount of knowledge which will allow you to play the game and do relatively well.

no body can expect to win everything with hardly any thought into what their doing so it will rely on experience and knowledge.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

maybe, but you say it's more trial and error than putting any knowledge into practice, i say that if you put the knowledge into pratice then it isn't trial and error. not knowing about the knowledge would be trial and error but you dont have to study for months to get the smallest amount of knowledge which will allow you to play the game and do relatively well.

no body can expect to win everything with hardly any thought into what their doing so it will rely on experience and knowledge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we'll have to agree to disagree

It depends really on what knowledge you mean. Knowledge and experience of the game itself will of course help you, and I agree that thought is, and should be, needed to have success.

However, knowledge of football itself may not be so helpful as real world tactics and styles rarely seem to work that well at the moment, particularly 4-4-2.

I think Seagulls Forever has summed it up better than I could. The tactical system is quite complicated and I see no harm in having tactical feedback for those that want it. As I said, this happens in real life and in real life having a good assistant actually makes a difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shiny223:

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So IRL managers go to each of their players and say "You have an attacking mentality of 15, creative freedom of TEAM, width of 4, and mxied Forward runs?"

Yeah, right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However, knowledge of football itself may not be so helpful as real world tactics and styles rarely seem to work that well at the moment, particularly 4-4-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the things I've always tried to do with FM is apply what I had learned coaching IRL to the game. It's difficult because the tactical interface is structured very differently from how I (for one, and I assume others as well) think as a coach. In other words, it's not so much that the tactics are not "real world", it's that it isn't readily apparent what instructions in the interface get you to IRL tactics.

I've said before that the best thing SI could do is ease the learning curve - a comprehemsive guide to tactics, or a greatly augmented Assistant manager function, or both.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shiny223:

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So IRL managers go to each of their players and say "You have an attacking mentality of 15, creative freedom of TEAM, width of 4, and mxied Forward runs?"

Yeah, right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not. But they do say, "I want you to push up more on the attack." And if it isn't enough, they say, "No, more still." To some players, they say, "Do what you have to do to create chances" while to some others they say, "Stay with in the limits of the team's tactics."

The sliders are a proxy to a reality that can't be completely replicated. One of the drawbacks of that is the illusion of pinpoint accuracy in the settings. Actually, I suspect the game itself compensates for this in the way tactics are carried out.

I think the game is as hard or easy as you want it to be.

Easy game pick chelsea , arsenal etc download a proven tactic and follow makers advice, check good player guide, turn masking attributes off and just keep hitting the space bar.

Medium game pick a league 1 or 2 team and make your own tactic.

hard game try LLM.

I usually go for medium. Stick to one tactic (once i've got it right, for this reason first season takes twice as long as the following seasons) , no tweaking. Usually end up in top 3 of EPL within 6 seasons.

It's hard because YOU SUCK! no just kidding.

It can indeed be very confusing and, most of all, time consuming these days to do well but not that complicated really and certainly fun, if you consider dedicating days and weeks of your life to a text-based game as fun! It does feel like a second job, or perhaps more accurately, a mistress, sometimes but I think it always has.

Why don't those people who are struggling post a bit of info about their team, star players, division etc and people could give them a few simple hints about suitable tactics or i'm sure there is a thread somewhere that will help. I've just finished my first season in Conference South With Fisher Athletic.

I won the league despite a predicted relegation battle.

1) I sold or released my entire squad replacing them with lots of free young, fast and reasonably strong and/fit midfielders and strikers and fast fullbacks.

2) I got two tall experienced and strong centre backs and made one of them captain and got in a promising young goalkeeper - so difficult to do but keep trying.

3) I spend AGES getting in decent coaching staff who can tutor all the vital areas and, CRUCIALLY, I get all my players to sign full-time contracts as they then train much more effectively.

4) I get the groundsman to make the pitch as big as possible and at home play 4-4-2, playing it forward quickly and moving the ball to the speedy wingers as often as possible.

5) I get my fullbacks to break forward and play one defensive CM with good passing and tackling/aggression and one more attacking CM with either good shooting or dribbling.

6) I get my defence to sit deep (just below the middle of the pitch) as my old centre backs are none too fast and that way they can't be hit on the break but as they are tall we can't be unlocked by a giant centre forward and a long ball tactic too easily....

7) Away i do much the same but play a little bit more defensively and on counter attack and my fullbacks stay back more. Still 4-4-2.

8) It takes flippin ages to find these decent players - especially for free! I spend like a day and a half of real time (!) sifting through every young unattached player in the game, getting them in on trial for four weeks, scouting etc etc. Quite a chore but pays off.

Anyway, it is possible to do well and to score goals. I'm not just showing off or anything, it usually takes me two or three seasons to get promoted from Conference south in FM07 and before. Got lucky this time. This tactic should work all the way up to Division two and even Division one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shiny223:

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So IRL managers go to each of their players and say "You have an attacking mentality of 15, creative freedom of TEAM, width of 4, and mxied Forward runs?"

Yeah, right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the same context do you think they say "tackling hard, lots of crosses, mixed passing, try through balls, attack lots and waste time lots"?

If the game were to revert to previous settings it would be far too easy and far too limited. Lots of people have poured scorn on the current setup yet I haven't seen anyone come up with a viable alternative.

No matter what way the tactics were set out it would be almost impossible to incorporate an adequate amount of "realistic" options as there are so many.

As for difficulty levels surely that just depends on the team/league you manage?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shiny223:

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So IRL managers go to each of their players and say "You have an attacking mentality of 15, creative freedom of TEAM, width of 4, and mxied Forward runs?"

Yeah, right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the same context do you think they say "tackling hard, lots of crosses, mixed passing, try through balls, attack lots and waste time lots"?

If the game were to revert to previous settings it would be far too easy and far too limited. Lots of people have poured scorn on the current setup yet I haven't seen anyone come up with a viable alternative.

No matter what way the tactics were set out it would be almost impossible to incorporate an adequate amount of "realistic" options as there are so many.

As for difficulty levels surely that just depends on the team/league you manage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think there's much alternative for team instruction-yes these slders can improve and get better, but there will allways be sliders.

it's player instruction which are fairly basic right now and there's planty of room for changing things/iproving.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oz:

Originally posted by Shiny223:

Why do you think real life manager's get sacked all the time?

Its a hard game, real life and mirroring it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So IRL managers go to each of their players and say "You have an attacking mentality of 15, creative freedom of TEAM, width of 4, and mxied Forward runs?"

Yeah, right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the same context do you think they say "tackling hard, lots of crosses, mixed passing, try through balls, attack lots and waste time lots"?

QUOTE]

Erm actually they will, although it might be:

"Put your foot in, show them your there"

" Get the ball out wide and into the danger area"

" Keep trying to get balls through to X, he has them for pace every time"

"Get the ball into the corners" or "keep hold of the ball"

It would be a great help to be able to "tell" players directly what we want, as too many tactical ideas have to relayed in the current abstract form.

Theres no excuse for not having an overlap tickbox (how often this happens would be linked to mentality not a 20 point slider), or any need for time wasting to have 20 notches.

Despite not really having all this knowledge and tactical know-how that so many of you speak of I personally am glad for the difficulty of the game. Indeed, that would be the very reason I would choose it over it's competitors.

While there is certainly something to be said for making games more accessible I believe it's in general gamers interests that games such as this remain as challenging as they are. The choice is up to the customer afterall and I for one am much happier with the state of affairs if there are games such as this out there that call for a little extra work and thought. If every game were to be reduced or increased to an equal standard of difficulty and accessibility there would be much less to choose between similar titles. My personal example that I picture would be something of the complexity and difficulty of Operation Flashpoint being reduced to the standards and realism of Doom or Call Of Duty, a depressing thought indeed.

I am sorry but Football Manager has always been the Toughest and most REALISTIC manager game around. If you want easiness, play champ. I get enjoyment out of the difficulty. It may hurt when you get thumped, but it feels great after beating your local rivals (flukily) << Spelling

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And I think that's the trouble. Many people, for whatever reason, no longer seem to know what they're doing.

I, like you, enjoy the game being hard and have no problem with the tactics side of it. But there's no denying that a lot of people on the forums do. And if I look at it objectively I can see why. Of course it doesn't help that at the moment it's impossible for many to tell that their formation is not working by studying the match engine. All a lot of people see is their tactic creating a lot of good looking chances that are missed or saved, just to get beaten by an opposition that has had little of the play. What is a player supposed to take from that in terms of improving? On the field the tactic's doing what you want, i.e. dominating the opposition and creating clear cut chances, yet you still lose. How do you go about improving a tactic when all the signs indicate it's working perfectly well? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's a pretty good summary Chopper. The slider system is convoluted and confusing, making it very diffcult to make the link between the tactical settings and what we see in the 2D engine. There seems to be a predilection that because a few people really understand the engine and can make the link between tactics and the 2D view, the rest of us are fine too, which is clearly not the case. At times it feels likes SI have forgotten about their customers and got caught up in their own indepth knowledge of how the game works.

What I feel we are missing is information, information that helps us analyse our tactics and team performance better, such as more indepth statistics and graphs. At the moment all we have is watching full matches or the basic statistics, which have never changed since their inception and is not enough. We can't single out specific types of highlights to review, we can watch full matches but it's still to easy to miss things. We don't need to be told how to play but we do need better information to help us come to better decisions.

I don't mind FM getting more compicated but their needs to be other additions to help us players deal with the complex nature better, not make it simpler but more manageable. Nobody wants to play a game they get frustrated with all the time, people will just stop buying it and SI will lose out in the end.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by copperhorse21:

I also believe that it should be easy to assume that a sunday league player wants an easier game than an international superstar. Therefore, the difficulty levels are already determined within the framework of the game.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Difficulty level is included - you start with a certain reputation level which determines which clubs will hire you. Managing in the Belgian 3rd division is a lot easier than managing in the Premiership.

The problem is with people who don't know how to play the game (and possibly knowing very little about real life football either) trying jump straight into the Arsenal hotseat.

The game takes a lot of factors into account that aren't immediately apparent and the best way to learn is by doing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oz:

So IRL managers go to each of their players and say "You have an attacking mentality of 15, creative freedom of TEAM, width of 4, and mxied Forward runs?"

Yeah, right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they don't, they spend dozens and dozens of hours on the training pitch tweaking each player's understanding of what he wants them to do in each situation.

Real life coaches lose their voice trying to explain exactly what they want from their players - all you have to do is tweak sliders.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And I think that's the trouble. Many people, for whatever reason, no longer seem to know what they're doing.

I, like you, enjoy the game being hard and have no problem with the tactics side of it. But there's no denying that a lot of people on the forums do. And if I look at it objectively I can see why. Of course it doesn't help that at the moment it's impossible for many to tell that their formation is not working by studying the match engine. All a lot of people see is their tactic creating a lot of good looking chances that are missed or saved, just to get beaten by an opposition that has had little of the play. What is a player supposed to take from that in terms of improving? On the field the tactic's doing what you want, i.e. dominating the opposition and creating clear cut chances, yet you still lose. How do you go about improving a tactic when all the signs indicate it's working perfectly well? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's a pretty good summary Chopper. The slider system is convoluted and confusing, making it very diffcult to make the link between the tactical settings and what we see in the 2D engine. There seems to be a predilection that because a few people really understand the engine and can make the link between tactics and the 2D view, the rest of us are fine too, which is clearly not the case. At times it feels likes SI have forgotten about their customers and got caught up in their own indepth knowledge of how the game works.

What I feel we are missing is information, information that helps us analyse our tactics and team performance better, such as more indepth statistics and graphs. At the moment all we have is watching full matches or the basic statistics, which have never changed since their inception and is not enough. We can't single out specific types of highlights to review, we can watch full matches but it's still to easy to miss things. We don't need to be told how to play but we do need better information to help us come to better decisions.

I don't mind FM getting more compicated but their needs to be other additions to help us players deal with the complex nature better, not make it simpler but more manageable. Nobody wants to play a game they get frustrated with all the time, people will just stop buying it and SI will lose out in the end. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree that information that are given to us are not very good, but what tools do real managers use? of course you can't judge your tactics if you watch matches on extended or key highlights. and that's why FM08 is harder. little tweaks are needed in every match in my opinoum. it might be something simple like team is playing too wide. I don't know what kind of statistics you want to be included. and I don't know how could "specific types of highlights" help you if you have striker who can't win headers, for example.

the proble now is that humans can have difficulties countering AI tactics, especially if using pre set tactics which are useless. I would want more tactical options; specific tasks or duties, which could be given to your players. I disagree that sldiers are confusing. we could discuss each slider (20 notches for time wasting??...) but I just can't see any quallity alternative for them. how could a tempo slider be changed, for example?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

agree that information that are given to us are not very good, but what tools do real managers use? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the Premiership most managers use ProZone to analyse every part of the previous game and work on what went wrong/right and how to try and improve for the next game. Real life managers generally also have useful assistants who'll offer them advice and will hopefully themselves have a decent idea about tactics and who will be able to point out where things seem to be going wrong, if the manager chooses to ask them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> the proble now is that humans can have difficulties countering AI tactics, especially if using pre set tactics which are useless. I would want more tactical options; specific tasks or duties, which could be given to your players. I disagree that sldiers are confusing. we could discuss each slider (20 notches for time wasting??...) but I just can't see any quallity alternative for them. how could a tempo slider be changed, for example? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree that the current slider system is probably the best tactical interface we could have in this game. I would like to see it refined a little but in general I can't think of a better system to replace it with. Imo all that are needed are things like I outlined above to help the user get the most out of the tactical side of the game.

now I only must find out what is a ProZone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

now I only must find out what is a ProZone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prozone.

Unfortunately Championship Manager already uses ProZone officially and will therefor have the license for it. But there's no reason why something similar cannot be used in FM.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

now I only must find out what is a ProZone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prozone.

Unfortunately Championship Manager already uses ProZone officially and will therefor have the license for it. But there's no reason why something similar cannot be used in FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I think SI dropped the ball here, this is something they should've implemented themselves around the time of 05 or 06 but now their competition have it.

If you read through the post history about ProZone on these boards, some are for it and others are against it. I'm in the former camp and believe if used intelligently it can help analyse your tactics better by picking up patterns of play and areas you can improve on more.

Besides ProZone's ability to graphically show events playout during a match (goals, passes etc), coupled onto this are more indepth match statistics which can show what areas of the pitch (percentage wise) each player spent during their time on the pitch. There are also more detailed statistics about possession for each position for both keeping and losing possession, and also detailed passing stats for each position and player. These extra stats are part of the real world ProZone, not the implementation of CM from memory. A similar product used in the USA is called Tango.

None of this extra information tells you precisely what to change if you spot a problem, what it does do though is give you better information to equip yourself with in order to work on different areas of your game.

A lot of people think a ProZone like feature is needless, so whether this has factored into SI's decision making in implementing such a feature I don't know, but I'd rather have the option of making use of such information then continue in the predicament we are in now of tactics and match analysis not going anywhere.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

agree that information that are given to us are not very good, but what tools do real managers use? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the Premiership most managers use ProZone to analyse every part of the previous game and work on what went wrong/right and how to try and improve for the next game. Real life managers generally also have useful assistants who'll offer them advice and will hopefully themselves have a decent idea about tactics and who will be able to point out where things seem to be going wrong, if the manager chooses to ask them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> the proble now is that humans can have difficulties countering AI tactics, especially if using pre set tactics which are useless. I would want more tactical options; specific tasks or duties, which could be given to your players. I disagree that sldiers are confusing. we could discuss each slider (20 notches for time wasting??...) but I just can't see any quallity alternative for them. how could a tempo slider be changed, for example? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree that the current slider system is probably the best tactical interface we could have in this game. I would like to see it refined a little but in general I can't think of a better system to replace it with. Imo all that are needed are things like I outlined above to help the user get the most out of the tactical side of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There have been many good suggestions for replacements over the years.

For starters some sliders should be removed and replaced with graphical representations on the pitch graphic- defensive line, width and closing down are three that spring to mind. Also player mentality could be refined to allow us to influence player position by positioning players on the pitch directly.

Then time wasting should be either on or off- with maybe tickboxes to choose how your team time wastes (eg possession, get ball into corners, waste at set pieces etc).

Then we also need ways of telling our players more directly what to do- a tickbox for overlapping is blindingly obvious, and is not only intuitive but it alerts players that this option is actually available to use. The amount of time a player does this would be decided by the players mentality as this slider would now be used just for this due to the player positioning mentioned earlier.

Dont get me wrong sliders have their place- but if I can come up with a few suggestions off the top of my head Im sure the pro's could come up with equally good or better ways of improving what is a very unintuitive system that does not offer us the corresponding amount of power when you consider how unneccessarily complex the system is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

The problem with a "prozone" type tool in a game like this is that if the AI managers cant use it then it is essentially a cheat, and will unbalance the human manager's place in the game world.

And to make the AI manager use it is a far more complicated task than simply providing the data to a human.

Its similar with the idea of a set piece editor.

Ironically both features would sit well in FM Live where there is no AI as such.

IMHO </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AI doesn't need ProZone though, he knows what he's doing Us players though could do with a helping hand with better match stats for analysis, even if it's not ProZone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

The problem with a "prozone" type tool in a game like this is that if the AI managers cant use it then it is essentially a cheat, and will unbalance the human manager's place in the game world.

And to make the AI manager use it is a far more complicated task than simply providing the data to a human.

Its similar with the idea of a set piece editor.

Ironically both features would sit well in FM Live where there is no AI as such.

IMHO </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean by "cheat"?

For example the ai can see a player's potential ability and reputation, but the human player cannot (unless they use an external program or in other words, a cheat). Also the ai can and does tweak tactics every 3 minutes or so during the match but the human player realistically cannot. That can also be regarded as a "cheat".

I think SI is trying to make excuses...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

The problem with a "prozone" type tool in a game like this is that if the AI managers cant use it then it is essentially a cheat, and will unbalance the human manager's place in the game world.

And to make the AI manager use it is a far more complicated task than simply providing the data to a human.

Its similar with the idea of a set piece editor.

Ironically both features would sit well in FM Live where there is no AI as such.

IMHO </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AI doesn't need ProZone though, he knows what he's doing Us players though could do with a helping hand with better match stats for analysis, even if it's not ProZone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I kinda agree with Paul here.

George

I don't think there had to be a tick-box for over laping. that's the metter of (team) menatlity and forward runs. but I agree with player mentality-positioning thing. they chenged it this year. so now we have both mentalities, tempo and time wasting that all influence how the ball is going to be passed...confusing!!