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camoulton21

I know what I want, but not how to get there

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I've read a Spielverlagerung article based on Giampaolo's Empoli team (Team Analysis: Empoli - Spielverlagerung) and would like to replicate what I've learnt into FM. I am struggling to get the structure of team right and would like some help with that.

What I'm looking to do is get the Formation/Player Roles/Player Duties/Player Instructions right. From what I've learned these are the key structural elements from Giampaolo's Empoli:

  • The fullbacks have a deep starting position when the team is building-up play and then make forward runs when the ball is safely played into midfield
  • The middle MC is a key player for the team as the primary ball progressor
  • The wider MCs more laterally to open space to play centrally and also to make an option for the deep fullbacks to pass down the line
  • The STCs attack the channels but also make receiving movements to get on the ball - kind of working in tandem

image.png.bb3dd559c463b0406d60c9ba50459d86.png

And this a picture of how these type of movements would work in relation to the base formation. Spielverlagurug usually include this kind of image themselves when they make similar articles on other teams. Because they didn't, I made my own. Hopefully it's somewhat similar to what they would have done.

Thanks in Advance!

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The two outside CM’s look like they should be Mezzala’s. The central CM looks like he should be a DLP(d). I’d play the FB’s with a support role, and at least one of your ST’s as an AF.

Then play around a bit.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

The fullbacks have a deep starting position when the team is building-up play and then make forward runs when the ball is safely played into midfield

I would try them with some type of support role, for this behaviour. Play around with the exact role to get the behaviour you want.

9 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

The middle MC is a key player for the team as the primary ball progressor

He looks like he should be a DLP on defend. You can play around with a CM(S) and CM(D) as well, as you can customize them a little more.

10 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

The wider MCs more laterally to open space to play centrally and also to make an option for the deep fullbacks to pass down the line

Here you seem to want Mezzalas, which have forward movement. You can also try Carrielo (if that is how it is spelt) which will give lateral movement without as much vertical. You can see which works better. Probably a combination, you do not want your tactic too symmetrical, that is the path to being one-dimensional.

11 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

The STCs attack the channels but also make receiving movements to get on the ball - kind of working in tandem

There are so many pairings you can try here. Experiment with possible combinations and see which does what you want to do most. CF(s) AF(A), for instance, may be a place to start.

I'd also make sure your AMC is getting into the box to take advantage of the space your strikers are trying to create. And keep an eye that you are not being funnelled down the wings too much, which is possible if you play two midfield roles who get wider when in possession.

In terms of that one dimensional thing, I would try to make my flanks be attacked by different players at different times. So perhaps a WB(S) CAR(S) on one side and a FB(S) MEZ(A) on the other. That way you are varying how, where and when you attack the flanks on both sides. And against sides in Serie A you have to be careful for those sides who absolutely pack the centre of the pitch to defend. You are going to need a plan to draw out that mass of players, and going wide with both midfielders may not be that answer.

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Thanks for the advice guys. I've come up with this so far

image.thumb.png.abcc92a275a17c656f3b47d75836523a.png

Connell probably isn't the best option at Carrilero but my other better option is injured. Despite the role suitability not being great, I'd say that Nygren can play CF because of his natural creativity. I would also like to ask for some help/advice with getting the Mentality and Team Instructions right but I will leave that until I finish messing around with the different role combinations 

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5 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

image.thumb.png.abcc92a275a17c656f3b47d75836523a.png

I don't know if this is a replication of Giampaolo because I am not familiar enough with his style, but the tactic in this screenshot looks pretty decent and absolutely makes sense :thup:

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On 02/02/2020 at 22:53, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know if this is a replication of Giampaolo because I am not familiar enough with his style, but the tactic in this screenshot looks pretty decent and absolutely makes sense :thup:

That's good to here! I'm going to stick with that tactic like this for awhile and see if everything is working as planned.

 

On 03/02/2020 at 14:29, henryzz said:

To me it looks a little vulnerable to players attacking the channels.

I think that's the biggest weakness of the 4-3-1-2 formation, and probably why it isn't very popular. Because the formation is narrow it naturally depends on the fullbacks a lot and other players to create situational width. The issue is that the fullbacks cannot be given overly aggressive roles because they'd leave the CBs isolated and channels exposed, prime for a counter attack. Usually people use a DM to offset this weakness and allow the fullbacks to get forward freely but the formation doesn't have one. This is why Giampaolo uses more conservative fullbacks than you would imagine, to offer the team greater stability. In real life the fullbacks are meant to alternate when they attack depending on which side the ball is on and build-up play by staying deep in a line of 4. They still overlap and attack, but prefer to do so by making runs from deeper starting positions, as appose to getting to far ahead of the ball. Whilst I'm going to stick with the fullback roles as is, this is probably the part of the tactic I'm most unhappy with as I'm not sure if either fullback role satisfies these requirements.

 

17 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

"I know what I want, but not how to get there."

You sound like my ex-wife :lol:

I thought if I gave the thread a more punchy title more people would click on it to help me out:lol:

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Hey guys, back again and in need of some more advice with my tactic. The results from the last version of the tactic haven't been great and neither has the football. From watching the games the style of play still doesn't seem quite right and is what I'd like some help with. Like my first post I'll list the key points I want to emulate below. 

  • Verticality - especially through the centre where the team usually holds a numerical advantage
  • Methodical Build Up - circulate the ball horizontally until passing lanes vertically become available
  • Combination play - aided by a short passing style, compact shape to give close options, players willing to move for one another and a pass first mentality
  • Vertical and fast counter attacks
  • Narrow and Compact shape - strong occupation of the middle and half spaces encourages opposition to play in the wide areas 
  • Pressing  - in oppositions half, from opposition goal kicks, and when the ball goes wide (this is probably the most important part as we've struggled to defend crosses)
  • AMC screens in front of the midfielder trio, usually tightly marking opposition deepest midfielder

Here's the tactic as I have it atm

image.thumb.png.49446cd8bd9c3053dc0d9f72155e01c1.png

Giampaolo's style of play aligns closest to the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset if that helps.

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1 hour ago, camoulton21 said:

image.thumb.png.49446cd8bd9c3053dc0d9f72155e01c1.png

Looking at the tactic, it does not look bad overall. 

Here are potential tweaks you might want to consider:

- changing the left back into a WB on attack instead of support so that he would provide width in the final third in a more decisive manner, given that there is a carrilero on his side as defensive cover (but do not make this change unless you are confident it will not entail too much defensive risk)

- changing the CF into F9 (preferably) or DLF on support, to encourage him to drop deeper and thus both create more more space for the AM and be more involved in linking up with the midfield (on top of that, CF as a role works better when he has more space in his immediate area, which is another reason why you should consider an F9/DLF instead)

I would also remove all in-transition instructions. Here is why:

- You already use the Play out of defence, so telling the keeper to distribute specifically to CBs is not necessary. Moreover, it can be also risky to limit your GK's options so much, especially when you face an aggressive opposition that presses you high up the pitch. Alternatively, you can even remove the Play out of defence and instead ask the keeper to distribute to both CBs and FBs, which is generally a safer option while still possession-friendly (given that you use shorter passing and not an overly high mentality)

- The same reason basically applies to the "Take short kicks" TI. Let the keeper decide what's the optimal and safest method of distribution in a given situation. Don't limit his options for no apparent reason (especially as you play him in a SK role)

- When it comes to the Counter TI, your players will attempt counter-attacks when an opportunity presents itself even without the Counter instruction turned on, but will not immediately rush into counter-attacks every time they win the ball and thus risk losing possession too early and cheaply. So you don't need to use the Counter TI all the time. Instead, turn it on situationally (for example, you have taken the lead and the opposition are desperately trying to equalize, so you turn on the Counter to try and hopefully take advantage of their more aggressive and risky approach)

Of course, I don't know if the tweaks I have proposed above are in conformity with the Giampaolo's style you want to implement, so it's up to you to decide if you want to apply any of them or not :)

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Thanks for the reply, I not sure if all your suggestions help me to achieve my goal of a Giampaolo style tactic but I do think I've taken a lot from your post.

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- changing the left back into a WB on attack instead of support so that he would provide width in the final third in a more decisive manner, given that there is a carrilero on his side as defensive cover (but do not make this change unless you are confident it will not entail too much defensive risk)

 

This tweak for instance makes sense but would probably have the left back getting forward earlier than what I'd like. I might change the Carrilero role to something more aggressive because of this

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- changing the CF into F9 (preferably) or DLF on support, to encourage him to drop deeper and thus both create more more space for the AM and be more involved in linking up with the midfield (on top of that, CF as a role works better when he has more space in his immediate area, which is another reason why you should consider an F9/DLF instead)

 

I like this idea because the CF support has dribble more as a PI which doesn't always help in a narrow formation as the midfield gets congested leaving little space to dribble in, like you said

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would also remove all in-transition instructions. Here is why:

 

This is the part where I think I learnt something more clearly. I've heard a lot on the forums that less is more in the Tactics Creator and my posts from earlier have a lot of different ideas to all try and include together which can be confusing. I think Rashidi said that the most important area of the tactics is your LOE/D-Line and Passing Directness, so I've simplified the tactic a little more to basically just these instructions and then I can add what seems necessary from there

I'd like to ask another question as well. Because the formation is narrow I'm struggling currently from defending crosses. The Giampaolo's real life teams defend the central and half spaces primarily but also offset the weakness in the formation by shuffling across aggressively to close down the wide areas. How would I achieve this?

My initial idea was to use Opposition Instructions to specifically press this area of the pitch after reading a post on strikerless (https://strikerless.com/2017/06/20/opposition-instructions-pressing-triggers-and-pressing-traps/). Am I on the right track or is there a better way to go about this?

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2 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

This tweak for instance makes sense but would probably have the left back getting forward earlier than what I'd like. I might change the Carrilero role to something more aggressive because of this

What exactly do you mean by "something more aggressive"? Aggressive in which sense - attacking-wise or defense-wise? Because if you change the FB on attack into WB on attack, then you need a more defensive/conservative type of midfielder to cover for him. I hope you understand what I mean? 

 

2 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Because the formation is narrow I'm struggling currently from defending crosses. The Giampaolo's real life teams defend the central and half spaces primarily but also offset the weakness in the formation by shuffling across aggressively to close down the wide areas. How would I achieve this?

I can only tell you what is my personal approach, but am not going to claim it's the only one that is valid. When I use a narrow formation, I never set defensive width to narrow - precisely because flanks are inherently more vulnerable, so I want to encourage my players to defend a bit wider in order to help the fullbacks/wing-backs deal with opposition wide players. So I either use wider or standard defensive width, but not narrow. If I believe my defense can deal with crosses successfully, I'll opt for standard width. If not - then wider. And also keep in mind that crosses can also be low, so it's not just about your defenders jumping reach, but also marking, positioning, concentration, strength etc... 

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32 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

What exactly do you mean by "something more aggressive"? Aggressive in which sense - attacking-wise or defense-wise? Because if you change the FB on attack into WB on attack, then you need a more defensive/conservative type of midfielder to cover for him. I hope you understand what I mean? 

 

I don't quite think I do understand. I'm not going to use an attack duty on my fullbacks because that would encourage them to get forward quite early in the build-up phase which isn't what I want. That's why I was thinking of using a more forward thinking (I can see how me saying "more aggressive" can be confusing) role ahead of my fullbacks as appose to the carrilero role, so that I still have some attacking thrust down that side of the pitch

32 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I can only tell you what is my personal approach, but am not going to claim it's the only one that is valid. When I use a narrow formation, I never set defensive width to narrow - precisely because flanks are inherently more vulnerable, so I want to encourage my players to defend a bit wider in order to help the fullbacks/wing-backs deal with opposition wide players. So I either use wider or standard defensive width, but not narrow. If I believe my defense can deal with crosses successfully, I'll opt for standard width. If not - then wider. And also keep in mind that crosses can also be low, so it's not just about your defenders jumping reach, but also marking, positioning, concentration, strength etc... 

Noted

Edited by camoulton21

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39 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

I don't quite think I do understand. I'm not going to use an attack duty on my fullbacks because that would encourage them to get forward quite early in the build-up phase which isn't what I want

Well, when you play in a narrow formation, you do need your fullbacks (or wing-backs in 5-man back-line) to be more attack-minded than otherwise, because there are no other wide players to offer width in the later stages of your attacks.

Now, it does not mean that they necessarily have to be played on attack duties - and I personally would not play both of them on attack duty at the same time - because roles such as WB and CWB will get forward often even with support duty. So even if you don't want to give the attack duty to either of your fullbacks, you still need to encourage them to help provide support from wider areas in attack. You can do this through the use of an overlap or focus play down a flank team instruction(s) for example.

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On 20/02/2020 at 22:51, Experienced Defender said:

Well, when you play in a narrow formation, you do need your fullbacks (or wing-backs in 5-man back-line) to be more attack-minded than otherwise, because there are no other wide players to offer width in the later stages of your attacks.

Now, it does not mean that they necessarily have to be played on attack duties - and I personally would not play both of them on attack duty at the same time - because roles such as WB and CWB will get forward often even with support duty. So even if you don't want to give the attack duty to either of your fullbacks, you still need to encourage them to help provide support from wider areas in attack. You can do this through the use of an overlap or focus play down a flank team instruction(s) for example.

I agree with you, the fullbacks in a narrow formation like 4-3-1-2 are super important for providing width. The dilemma that I have is that Giampaolo (who's ideas I'm trying to implement into FM) likes to keep his fullbacks deep when the team is building up play. They still overlap and attack, but wait until the ball has transitioned into midfield and they can receive a pass in a forwards direction. The picture below probably explains this better than I have. I'm finding it difficult to have my FBs create this chain of 4 when the team is building up play but also giving the team an outlet on the overlap in attack.

image.png.84d057a2a175e9a29650df2ec2165763.png

 

On 20/02/2020 at 21:33, Experienced Defender said:

I can only tell you what is my personal approach, but am not going to claim it's the only one that is valid. When I use a narrow formation, I never set defensive width to narrow - precisely because flanks are inherently more vulnerable, so I want to encourage my players to defend a bit wider in order to help the fullbacks/wing-backs deal with opposition wide players. So I either use wider or standard defensive width, but not narrow. If I believe my defense can deal with crosses successfully, I'll opt for standard width. If not - then wider. And also keep in mind that crosses can also be low, so it's not just about your defenders jumping reach, but also marking, positioning, concentration, strength etc... 

Going back to what you said here, wouldn't a wider defensive width effect my team shape more as appose to the way we press. Obviously they are interlinked, and a wider shape will allow my players to get the wings quicker, but I don't think that's exactly what I want.

I want the team to keep a compact shape, blocking the middle and half-spaces so the opposition resort to the passing to the wide areas. Then when the ball goes wide the defensive block shifts across to press the ball in this area. Narrow defensive width might be an overkill considering that the formation is narrow so I've left it on standard like you suggested. My problem is that I don't know how to setup my teams pressing instructions so that they close down the wide areas in particular quickly

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3 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

he dilemma that I have is that Giampaolo (who's ideas I'm trying to implement into FM) likes to keep his fullbacks deep when the team is building up play. They still overlap and attack, but wait until the ball has transitioned into midfield and they can receive a pass in a forwards direction

That can be achieved by using the combination of instructions "Play out of defence" and "Distribute to fullbacks". You can of course select distribution to both fullbacks and CBs. 

 

3 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Going back to what you said here, wouldn't a wider defensive width effect my team shape more as appose to the way we press. Obviously they are interlinked, and a wider shape will allow my players to get the wings quicker, but I don't think that's exactly what I want

Then you can go with standard defensive width. 

 

3 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

I want the team to keep a compact shape, blocking the middle and half-spaces so the opposition resort to the passing to the wide areas. Then when the ball goes wide the defensive block shifts across to press the ball in this area. Narrow defensive width might be an overkill considering that the formation is narrow so I've left it on standard like you suggested

Good. 

 

3 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

My problem is that I don't know how to setup my teams pressing instructions so that they close down the wide areas in particular quickly

You can use opposition instructions - close down always on opposition wide players/positions. Whether you want to apply this OI only to their wingers/wide forwards or all wide opposition players is up to you to decide. 

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Very interesting conversation and subject! Thnaks for all the answers.

Il y a 21 heures, camoulton21 a dit :

The dilemma that I have is that Giampaolo (who's ideas I'm trying to implement into FM) likes to keep his fullbacks deep when the team is building up play. They still overlap and attack, but wait until the ball has transitioned into midfield and they can receive a pass in a forwards direction.

Maybe you can also look at the tempo of your team.

If you play with a high tempo, your both FB won't have the time to go up the pitch. Otherwise, if you play a low tempo, the FB can participate to build up, and then go higher and make forward runs.

It is how I understand the use of tempo. But it is necessary to try.

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Cheers @Experienced Defender for all the help

 

5 hours ago, rouflaquettes31 said:

If you play with a high tempo, your both FB won't have the time to go up the pitch. Otherwise, if you play a low tempo, the FB can participate to build up, and then go higher and make forward runs.

 

I'll give this a go. I was originally leaning towards a higher tempo to try and achieve a kind of fast passing, combination style of play utlising the natural triangles and diamonds of the 4-3-1-2 formation but what you're suggested makes sense aswell

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A very interesting thread! In real life I was a fan of Giampaolo's work until he managed my Milan side. Oh God what a shambolic performances from us earlier this season! I still like his basic idea tho, and actually tried to formulate it with my Brentford side (first season) but encountered many problems you stated. 

 

Anyway I would like to give this another try, especially with the informations this thread gives! 

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6 hours ago, tinkerer said:

A very interesting thread! In real life I was a fan of Giampaolo's work until he managed my Milan side. Oh God what a shambolic performances from us earlier this season! I still like his basic idea tho, and actually tried to formulate it with my Brentford side (first season) but encountered many problems you stated. 

 

I'm glad you enjoyed reading it! I watched Milan through preseason and up until Giampaolo was sacked just because I really enjoyed his football previously and wanted to see he could implement this at a bigger stage. You're right though some of the leagues performances were pretty lifeless despite looking decent in preseason which was sad to see but I'll still be keen to see where Giampaolo heads to next. 

I'd love to see what your take on his tactics in FM would like if you'd like to continue the thread

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i'm also trying to implement some of Giampaolo ideas. But i'm really struggling with narrow formations, would it be 4-3-1-2 or 5-2-1-2. I'm extremly vulnearable at flanks even with defending wider instruction. Also dissapointed with lack in central play. 

In early versions i was very successful with 4-3-1-2 or 4-1-3-2 but with this ME i don't feel i could achieve style of play that i want. So would love to know if somebody have a success in fm20 with narrow formations.

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Am 13.3.2020 um 13:37 schrieb Vladis:

i'm also trying to implement some of Giampaolo ideas. But i'm really struggling with narrow formations, would it be 4-3-1-2 or 5-2-1-2. I'm extremly vulnearable at flanks even with defending wider instruction. Also dissapointed with lack in central play. 

In early versions i was very successful with 4-3-1-2 or 4-1-3-2 but with this ME i don't feel i could achieve style of play that i want. So would love to know if somebody have a success in fm20 with narrow formations.

same for me, as in my opinion the central play is not really working this year as the playmakers are not really tempted to play dangerous central balls, I feel the only way to have success with a diamond/narrow formation is with attacking fullbacks who are responsible for almost all attacking thread. I can live with being exposed on the flanks (to some extend), but the limitation offensively is really frustrating as there is no way for me to have success with what I'm trying to replicate, with full backs just providing width and making the AM feed my two strikers 

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On 19/02/2020 at 19:36, camoulton21 said:

Here's the tactic as I have it atm:

image.thumb.png.49446cd8bd9c3053dc0d9f72155e01c1.png

Giampaolo's style of play aligns closest to the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset if that helps.

I am also sadly in same boat. Really interested in the formation. Think I understand Giampaolo's principles etc.

The above formation to me looks near enough spot on.

The only way I've got any success (even then not great success) is by moving away from the principles and trying to generate activity down the wings with the wingbacks bombing on. Next to nothing created by my AM - even when he appears open to slot in the AF.

Would be incredibly interested to see anyone who's got success out of playing a Giampaolo/Sarri (at Empoli) style 4-3-1-2.

Edited by jckmlscrwly

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On 13/03/2020 at 12:37, Vladis said:

i'm also trying to implement some of Giampaolo ideas. But i'm really struggling with narrow formations, would it be 4-3-1-2 or 5-2-1-2. I'm extremly vulnearable at flanks even with defending wider instruction. Also dissapointed with lack in central play. 

 

I struggle with a similar issues as well, which is no surprise considering we're both using narrow formations but still annoying because the marking at the back post for crosses is usually pretty awful. Early crosses in particular cause a lot of problems because it exposes this problem the most. The best you can do is, make sure the widest midfielders are good at pressuring out wide (acceleration, stamina, teamwork, work rate) and make sure defenders can handle crosses (anticipation, positioning, concentration, marking).

 

On 13/03/2020 at 12:37, Vladis said:

In early versions i was very successful with 4-3-1-2 or 4-1-3-2 but with this ME i don't feel i could achieve style of play that i want. So would love to know if somebody have a success in fm20 with narrow formations.

4 hours ago, jckmlscrwly said:

Would be incredibly interested to see anyone who's got success out of playing a Giampaolo/Sarri (at Empoli) style 4-3-1-2.

Here's a link to somebodys version. I've spent a lot of time learning about Giampaolo's methods so it doesn't feel very fulfilling to use what someone else has created but it might give some ideas to you guys if you haven't used it before

 

22 hours ago, opgen22 said:

same for me, as in my opinion the central play is not really working this year as the playmakers are not really tempted to play dangerous central balls, I feel the only way to have success with a diamond/narrow formation is with attacking fullbacks who are responsible for almost all attacking thread. I can live with being exposed on the flanks (to some extend), but the limitation offensively is really frustrating as there is no way for me to have success with what I'm trying to replicate, with full backs just providing width and making the AM feed my two strikers 

Try to make sure that your playmaker has an offensive individual mentality (balanced or greater). This makes their passing more offensive and risky so they are more likely to play forwards instead of back or sideways

Edited by camoulton21

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Hey guys, I missed this thread in the initial stages otherwise I might have become more invested as I also tried a Giampaolo recreation. I thought I'd share this thread:

Although the initial tactic from the OP is FM18 its still relevant, and a few of us them worked on replications for FM19. My personal one, which you'll find in there, was arguably too realistic in that much like in real life I made Sampdoria solidly mid-table whereas when I'm playing a video game I want the constant ego boost of winning! 

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