Does FM19 employ anti-consumer DRM software "Denuvo"?

[..Valhalla..]

As titled, this is an awful piece of intrusive and unnecessary software to add (if true). Piracy has been proven not to affect sales (see link), all this kind of software does is harm those of us who legitimately buy your product. Like anti-piracy warnings at the beginning of DVDs and Blu-rays that we have legally bought - pirates don't have to sit through them since they only copy the movie itself.

Whatever happened to just making a game and letting us play it? 

https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/09/displacement_study.pdf

Denuvo affects performance:

https://techraptor.net/content/tekken-producer-says-denuvo-behind-recent-performance-issues-on-pc

[phnompenhandy]

Don't buy it then.

[..Valhalla..]

12 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Don't buy it then.

I don't intend to now 

[forameuss]

What an incredibly pointless hill to choose to die on.

[bigmattb28]

Enlighten us of the uninformed, what are these things you speak of

[endtime]

It was in FM18 as well, no? Anyway, it's unlikely SI (or SEGA) will change their minds about it, you're left with just not buying FM if you feel that strongly about it.

 

Quote

What an incredibly pointless hill to choose to die on.

 

It really isn't.

[Rascanuvols]

I mean, you are not wrong.

 

It's not a big enough issue for me not buying the game, but it's still scummy and an anti-consumer practice that no ethical company would ever implement.

[XaW]

DRMs seems to mostly be an annoyance to the legit users and not much of a hindrance for pirates, at the same time I can understand the reasoning behind wishing to secure intellectual property.

I thought Steam were the main copy protection they are using, since the game links to a steam profile. However, I haven't given in much thought, so I don't know much more than that.

[PokemonScanHams]

Denuvo for CPU reliant games especially can hold off a crack for a good 8 -9 months depending on what groups are active, it protects the primary sales windows which IIRC is all they claim to do.

Denuvo does its job. It just does it in a very evil way

[Spurs08]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

DRMs seems to mostly be an annoyance to the legit users and not much of a hindrance for pirates, at the same time I can understand the reasoning behind wishing to secure intellectual property.

I thought Steam were the main copy protection they are using, since the game links to a steam profile. However, I haven't given in much thought, so I don't know much more than that.

That used to be the case but Steam on its own is extremely easy to crack these days.

[PokemonScanHams]

2 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

That used to be the case but Steam on its own is extremely easy to crack these days.

Alot of games dont even bother these days. I know FIFA used to be super staunch with DRM and piracy but once FUT started grinding cash the cracks came out for those games within a week.

[forameuss]

25 minutes ago, endtime said:

It really isn't.

And why would that be?  Anyone who disagrees with this - or any aspect - is free not to buy the game because of it.  That's fair enough, and your personal choice.  But doing it as some kind of point is probably not going to make the blindest bit of difference, hence it's a pointless hill to die on.

SI are well within their rights to protect their intellectual property, and given there's a multitude of technologies out there to perform the task, it's clear they've chosen this for a reason.  Making it unlikely they're just going to "och well" and take it away.

[Rascanuvols]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

And why would that be?  Anyone who disagrees with this - or any aspect - is free not to buy the game because of it.  That's fair enough, and your personal choice.  But doing it as some kind of point is probably not going to make the blindest bit of difference, hence it's a pointless hill to die on.

SI are well within their rights to protect their intellectual property, and given there's a multitude of technologies out there to perform the task, it's clear they've chosen this for a reason.  Making it unlikely they're just going to "och well" and take it away.

I understand what you are trying to say, and you are right to a degree, but to protect their game at the expense of paying customers, who probably don't even know what's going on, is just plainly wrong. DRM is justifiable, Denuvo is not.

 

11 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

That used to be the case but Steam on its own is extremely easy to crack these days.

I think there are even DRM-free games on Steam. Steam can act now as an additional, optional layer of security.

[herne79]

Discuss drm and so on if you like, but probably not a good idea to talk about cracking FM on SI's official forums.

[PokemonScanHams]

5 minutes ago, forameuss said:

And why would that be?  Anyone who disagrees with this - or any aspect - is free not to buy the game because of it.  That's fair enough, and your personal choice.  But doing it as some kind of point is probably not going to make the blindest bit of difference, hence it's a pointless hill to die on.

SI are well within their rights to protect their intellectual property, and given there's a multitude of technologies out there to perform the task, it's clear they've chosen this for a reason.  Making it unlikely they're just going to "och well" and take it away.

There really arent alot of other services out there that are as effective as Denuvo is. Unless you load the game with a bunch of custom triggers ie Handball 17 which stil hasnt been cracked.

[PokemonScanHams]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Discuss drm and so on if you like, but probably not a good idea to talk about cracking FM on SI's official forums.

Apologies.

[forameuss]

7 minutes ago, PokemonScanHams said:

There really arent alot of other services out there that are as effective as Denuvo is. Unless you load the game with a bunch of custom triggers ie Handball 17 which stil hasnt been cracked.

Yeah, how dare they use an effective way of safeguarding their intellectual property.  I hate when people lock their doors, it just makes it so damn hard to break in, doesn't it?  Inconsiderate.

9 minutes ago, Rascanuvols said:

I understand what you are trying to say, and you are right to a degree, but to protect their game at the expense of paying customers, who probably don't even know what's going on, is just plainly wrong. DRM is justifiable, Denuvo is not.

How is it wrong?  In their eyes, protecting their property is always going to come before customers.  People won't like to hear that, but it is what it is.  Obviously they'll want to achieve both, but there's a reason they choose to use that particular technology.  If Denuvo has demonstrable tech drain, then it's either not as bad as people make out, or the benefits it brings outweigh the limitations.  I really fail to see what the issue with any of that is.  The customer isn't always right, in fact they rarely are.  But they will always have the personal choice on whether to use a product.

[endtime]

24 minutes ago, forameuss said:

And why would that be?  Anyone who disagrees with this - or any aspect - is free not to buy the game because of it.  That's fair enough, and your personal choice.  But doing it as some kind of point is probably not going to make the blindest bit of difference, hence it's a pointless hill to die on.

SI are well within their rights to protect their intellectual property, and given there's a multitude of technologies out there to perform the task, it's clear they've chosen this for a reason.  Making it unlikely they're just going to "och well" and take it away.

By that reasoning, you shouldn't complain about anything ever. And trust me, if enough people complain, it will make a difference.

 

6 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, how dare they use an effective way of safeguarding their intellectual property.  I hate when people lock their doors, it just makes it so damn hard to break in, doesn't it?  Inconsiderate.

Denuvo has a detrimental effect on your computer's performance. It's like you rented a house, got the keys from the landlord, but everytime you unlock the door you get punched in the face.

[Rascanuvols]

8 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, how dare they use an effective way of safeguarding their intellectual property.  I hate when people lock their doors, it just makes it so damn hard to break in, doesn't it?  Inconsiderate.

How is it wrong?  In their eyes, protecting their property is always going to come before customers.  People won't like to hear that, but it is what it is.  Obviously they'll want to achieve both, but there's a reason they choose to use that particular technology.  If Denuvo has demonstrable tech drain, then it's either not as bad as people make out, or the benefits it brings outweigh the limitations.  I really fail to see what the issue with any of that is.  The customer isn't always right, in fact they rarely are.  But they will always have the personal choice on whether to use a product.

You really see nothing wrong in affecting the performance of a paid game without telling the customers? If that's the case, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Of course customers can choose between settling for the unethical practice or not (I DID), but that doesn't make it any less unethical

[Spurs08]

6 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, how dare they use an effective way of safeguarding their intellectual property.  I hate when people lock their doors, it just makes it so damn hard to break in, doesn't it?  Inconsiderate.

How is it wrong?  In their eyes, protecting their property is always going to come before customers.  People won't like to hear that, but it is what it is.  Obviously they'll want to achieve both, but there's a reason they choose to use that particular technology.  If Denuvo has demonstrable tech drain, then it's either not as bad as people make out, or the benefits it brings outweigh the limitations.  I really fail to see what the issue with any of that is.  The customer isn't always right, in fact they rarely are.  But they will always have the personal choice on whether to use a product.

This isn't putting a lock on the door though, it's more putting an anti-theft device on the door that ends up pepper spraying the postman. The best types of anti-piracy are services that make things easier, simpler and cheaper for the consumer, stuff like Steam, Netflix and Spotify, not security software that is a negative for paying customers. While I'm not personally that bothered by Denuvo, I do think such technology which for instance can't easily be removed from a computer even after you've deleted the game in question will end up being illegal within the EU.

[Kazza]

Having just googled Denuvo, the jury seems to out on how much impact it actually does have on games. Some games, a very few appear to be impacted, others not. 

Need some expert advice, not just throw away statements, saying it effects games. Maybe SI can comment on any likely effects of using this particular DRM.

[Guest]

I don’t get the hate for Denuvo, it’s impact on game performance can be considered negligible to the point of the end user not even being aware of the difference had the final product been DRM-free.

Yes there are examples of dev’s not optimising it correctly on final release & these get addressed through patching just like any coding error that impacts the final product would be fixed.

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Rascanuvols said:

You really see nothing wrong in affecting the performance of a paid game without telling the customers? If that's the case, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Of course customers can choose between settling for the unethical practice or not (I DID), but that doesn't make it any less unethical

You're acting like they're putting lead in the drinking water.

If you actually have anything quantifiable of how it affects Football Manager (specifically) I'll quite happily concede to that.

2 minutes ago, endtime said:

By that reasoning, you shouldn't complain about anything ever. And trust me, if enough people complain, it will make a difference.

Denuvo has a detrimental effect on your computer's performance. It's like you rented a house, got the keys from the landlord, but everytime you unlock the door you get punched in the face.

Yes, that's definitely what it's like.

Like I say, you're free to exercise your right to not buy the game.  I doubt enough people care to make any sort of difference.  Probably because it ultimately doesn't matter.

1 minute ago, Spurs08 said:

This isn't putting a lock on the door though, it's more putting an anti-theft device on the door that ends up pepper spraying the postman. The best types of anti-piracy are services that make things easier, simpler and cheaper for the consumer, stuff like Steam, Netflix and Spotify, not security software that is a negative for paying customers. While I'm not personally that bothered by Denuvo, I do think such technology which for instance can't easily be removed from a computer even after you've deleted the game in question will end up being illegal within the EU.

But again, is that what it does?  Is there anything actually quantifiable that shows what its impact on the game is?  People are effectively saying that SI is making an inferior product purely to protect it.  Like I said before, either there is a significant performance hit, but it's considered a necessary hit for the benefits Denuvo brings, or it really isn't that much of an issue.  My money's on the latter, despite the protestations.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

This isn't putting a lock on the door though, it's more putting an anti-theft device on the door that ends up pepper spraying the postman. The best types of anti-piracy are services that make things easier, simpler and cheaper for the consumer, stuff like Steam, Netflix and Spotify, not security software that is a negative for paying customers. While I'm not personally that bothered by Denuvo, I do think such technology which for instance can't easily be removed from a computer even after you've deleted the game in question will end up being illegal within the EU.

Subscription based gaming it is then, just don’t cancel that subscription though as your license to play any of the games will be removed & there’s no chance in hell that you’ll be able to play a game without being online at all times.

[Spurs08]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

You're acting like they're putting lead in the drinking water.

If you actually have anything quantifiable of how it affects Football Manager (specifically) I'll quite happily concede to that.

Yes, that's definitely what it's like.

Like I say, you're free to exercise your right to not buy the game.  I doubt enough people care to make any sort of difference.  Probably because it ultimately doesn't matter.

But again, is that what it does?  Is there anything actually quantifiable that shows what its impact on the game is?  People are effectively saying that SI is making an inferior product purely to protect it.  Like I said before, either there is a significant performance hit, but it's considered a necessary hit for the benefits Denuvo brings, or it really isn't that much of an issue.  My money's on the latter, despite the protestations.

Going by other games it tends to be a small performance hit. For FM we can't tell because despite repeated requests SI won't give us benchmarks from a non-Denuvo build, nor will they remove the (long since cracked and useless) protection on older titles such as FM17. What we do know for a fact is that it's very difficult to remove entirely from your system, necessitating things like registry edits that many users won't be able to do and which can damage your computer if you get them wrong. That on its own is pretty dubious especially given that it isn't made at all clear before you install the game.

[craiigman]

Did FM18 have it? I thought Steam was the DRM used?

[Rascanuvols]

5 minutes ago, forameuss said:

You're acting like they're putting lead in the drinking water.

If you actually have anything quantifiable of how it affects Football Manager (specifically) I'll quite happily concede to that.

Yes, that's definitely what it's like.

Like I say, you're free to exercise your right to not buy the game.  I doubt enough people care to make any sort of difference.  Probably because it ultimately doesn't matter.

But again, is that what it does?  Is there anything actually quantifiable that shows what its impact on the game is?  People are effectively saying that SI is making an inferior product purely to protect it.  Like I said before, either there is a significant performance hit, but it's considered a necessary hit for the benefits Denuvo brings, or it really isn't that much of an issue.  My money's on the latter, despite the protestations.

Someone said it in a deleted message: screen loading was sometimes noticeable slower.

Just because it doesn't kill your grandma does not mean it's ok.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Did FM18 have it? I thought Steam was the DRM used?

I think SI have used it for a few years now.

As for Steam that’s nothing more than a store front, any pretence that it offered crack protecton has long since vanished.

[Spurs08]

3 minutes ago, Barside said:

Subscription based gaming it is then, just don’t cancel that subscription though as your license to play any of the games will be removed & there’s no chance in hell that you’ll be able to play a game without being online at all times.

The latter part is patently untrue - that isn't how it works for the subscription gaming services already offerred as part of the online service on all three major consoles. I do think that it provides an extra choice to consumers which is seldom a bad thing alongside the normal sales model. But note I did also mention Steam - which has been great for PC gaming by driving down prices and enhancing rather than taking away from the in-game experience, while not being a subscription model or having the awful intrusive DRM that preceded it. For instance, I believe it was FM09 that was literally unplayable at launch because of the DRM's activation servers failing - Steam simplified that massively and everyone benefitted.

[herne79]

Personally I'd never even heard of this.

People in this thread generalising about game performance.  As a customer I couldn't give a monkey's about generalisations, I'm interested in specifics.  What specific evidence is there (not anecdotal, not generalised, not "I read somewhere once") about the impact on FM performance?

FM18 is one thing of course, but it should probably be very specific in relation to FM19 too, which is going to be impossible to assess at present.

[Spurs08]

Just now, herne79 said:

Personally I'd never even heard of this.

People in this thread generalising about game performance.  As a customer I couldn't give a monkey's about generalisations, I'm interested in specifics.  What specific evidence is there (not anecdotal, not generalised, not "I read somewhere once") about the impact on FM performance?

FM18 is one thing of course, but it should probably be very specific in relation to FM19 too, which is going to be impossible to assess at present.

It's impossible for the consumer to assess in any of the FM games, as there's no way to remove Denuvo from them, and SI won't remove it (even for older titles where it's long since been cracked) nor provide any numbers.

[Kazza]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Personally I'd never even heard of this.

People in this thread generalising about game performance.  As a customer I couldn't give a monkey's about generalisations, I'm interested in specifics.  What specific evidence is there (not anecdotal, not generalised, not "I read somewhere once") about the impact on FM performance?

FM18 is one thing of course, but it should probably be very specific in relation to FM19 too, which is going to be impossible to assess at present.

Just what i more or less said earlier on and got no response. I agree with you give me facts.

[Rascanuvols]

1 minute ago, Spurs08 said:

It's impossible for the consumer to assess in any of the FM games, as there's no way to remove Denuvo from them, and SI won't remove it (even for older titles where it's long since been cracked) nor provide any numbers.

Peaople have "ilegetimaly" removed denuvo from older games, that's how we know the difference.

[rich10]

I wish they'd go back to the 2 number wheels that came with the game, uncrackable.

[Kazza]

3 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

It's impossible for the consumer to assess in any of the FM games, as there's no way to remove Denuvo from them, and SI won't remove it (even for older titles where it's long since been cracked) nor provide any numbers.

So at this stage it is mere speculation! When the product goes full fat live will we be able to assess or if the games runs smoothly then maybe that speaks for itself. Too early to tell. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

It's impossible for the consumer to assess in any of the FM games, as there's no way to remove Denuvo from them, and SI won't remove it (even for older titles where it's long since been cracked) nor provide any numbers.

I have experience of the difference from my time working at SI, it was tiny & when a major performance difference was picked time was spent identifying the cause & fixing it so the that the final Steam build performance was near identical to the internal DRM-free build.

[Rascanuvols]

4 minutes ago, Kazza said:

So at this stage it is mere speculation! When the product goes full fat live will we be able to assess or if the games runs smoothly then maybe that speaks for itself. Too early to tell. 

Again, you can't know that since there is nothing to compare it to. What you think is smooth might not be as smooth as it should.

 

Denuvo performance issues and invasivity has been documented for several games.

 

[Spurs08]

1 minute ago, Barside said:

I have experience of the difference from my time working at SI, it was tiny & when a major performance difference was picked up time was spent identifying the cause & fixing it so the that the final Steam build performance was near identical to the internal DRM-free build.

Good to know Unfortunately some devs haven't been as dilligent and ended up with those major differences in their final builds - leading to pirates getting a better-performing game than customers. That understandably isn't a very good way to encourage people not to pirate.

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, Rascanuvols said:

Again, you can't know that since there is nothing to compare it to. What you think is smooth might not be as smooth as it should.

 

Denuvo performance issues and invasiveness has been documented for several games.

 

Still generalising, not being specific to FM.

See barside's reply above .

[Spurs08]

Just now, herne79 said:

Still generalising, not being specific to FM.

See barside's reply above .

I think generalisations can be appropriate though. By using Denuvo SI/SEGA are still funding this technology which is hurting customers of other titles. And just because they avoided it causing substantial performance hits in the last two editions of FM doesn't mean they'll always be successful. For all we know a Denuvo-related issue is the reason we're not playing FM19 right now (i fact I'd say that's not at all outlandish considering the final step is presumably to move the latest build from internal to a protected consumer release)

[Rascanuvols]

4 minutes ago, Barside said:

I have experience of the difference from my time working at SI, it was tiny & when a major performance difference was picked up time was spent identifying the cause & fixing it so the that the final Steam build performance was near identical to the internal DRM-free build.

Glad to know.

 

I still wish it wasn't there at all, because of the other dubious stuff it does.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Spurs08 said:

I think generalisations can be appropriate though. By using Denuvo SI/SEGA are still funding this technology which is hurting customers of other titles. And just because they avoided it causing substantial performance hits in the last two editions of FM doesn't mean they'll always be successful. For all we know a Denuvo-related issue is the reason we're not playing FM19 right now (i fact I'd say that's not at all outlandish considering the final step is presumably to move the latest build from internal to a protected consumer release)

Generalisation without substantiation isn't useful though. You say "for all we know" but actually we know very little in regards to FM. The only person currently posting with any credible experience is Barside tbf. 

[Spurs08]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Generalisation without substantiation isn't useful. The only person currently posting with any credible experience is Barside tbf. 

If SI want to hire me so I can post with more credible experience I'm game

[herne79]

Just now, Spurs08 said:

I think generalisations can be appropriate though. By using Denuvo SI/SEGA are still funding this technology which is hurting customers of other titles. And just because they avoided it causing substantial performance hits in the last two editions of FM doesn't mean they'll always be successful. For all we know a Denuvo-related issue is the reason we're not playing FM19 right now (i fact I'd say that's not at all outlandish considering the final step is presumably to move the latest build from internal to a protected consumer release)

I agree generalisations can be useful.  It's just sometimes easy for a generalisation to lead to speculation which can then turn into fact when it's nothing of the kind.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

I think generalisations can be appropriate though. By using Denuvo SI/SEGA are still funding this technology which is hurting customers of other titles. And just because they avoided it causing substantial performance hits in the last two editions of FM doesn't mean they'll always be successful. For all we know a Denuvo-related issue is the reason we're not playing FM19 right now (i fact I'd say that's not at all outlandish considering the final step is presumably to move the latest build from internal to a protected consumer release)

DRM or no DRM the game would still have the same release dates.

 

[Spurs08]

Just now, Barside said:

DRM or no DRM the game would still have the same release dates.

 

You're saying it's 100% impossible that the beta didn't release yesterday because they found a performance issue caused by Denuvo?

[Spurs08]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

I agree generalisations can be useful.  It's just sometimes easy for a generalisation to lead to speculation which can then turn into fact when it's nothing of the kind.

Agreed, so it's great Barside is here and willing to clarify some of the specifics for FM. Obviously being specific is better when possible but it's 100% reasonable for people to be suspicious of a product that has caused issues elsewhere.

[Matt Penfold]

1 minute ago, Spurs08 said:

You're saying it's 100% impossible that the beta didn't release yesterday because they found a performance issue caused by Denuvo?

Since you are the one saying that is possible it is for your to offer evidence to support your claim. Without such evidence your claim can be dismissed without further consideration. 

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Spurs08 said:

You're saying it's 100% impossible that the beta didn't release yesterday because they found a performance issue caused by Denuvo?

No one can answer this, because to know 100% you'd have to be on the beta and to answer anything about would require breaking NDAs 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Generalisation without substantiation isn't useful. The only person currently posting with any credible experience is Barside tbf. 

TBf I’m now starting to question whether Denuvo was used when I worked there, I hate to muddy the waters but it might have been first used on the version after I left.

What doesn’t change is how the team reacted to the issue I found while working there m, albeit possibly on a previous DRM solution.

Sorry