SI You must change your attitude

[Zeljeznicar]

When you put new update, today..tomorrow? All people now that you are not testing, you are waiting moment for uploading, for to many clicks, downloads etc (Friday is ideal day**). You are not testing, because every update, after two hours many people find bugs and you make hotfix (and people again downloading, clicking etc.). You must understand, you sell game, some popele buy this, you must give us responsibility, correct date for update, correct game without bugs. We are not stupid, we are not your testing rabbits. You can't say "We will make update just pay for game, everything is ok, we make rules, you are stupid people". You are seller, you must sell professional product, not lie, not cheat. Im so frustrating because of your attitude according to your buyers.

[Declan Barry]

You do realise they are probably not testing but they have to submit it to Apple and Google who test too? If they test it is likely it will go live shortly after. They get nothing from waiting longer.

Also EVERY game has bugs, they aren't on purpose but some things tested by 30 people are going to be missed compared to 100k with lots of different devices.

[SephDarkheart]

the touch update was a little late to tablet but it wasnt terribly late. stuff happens game dev isnt perfect. if you cant deal then dont play games ever again or dont buy from them again. whining doesnt make the work go faster

[Zeljeznicar]

Some people don't understand, if SI making update so long (by the end of this week) , i expect regular game without bugs and hotfix in future. If they not testing, what they are doing? If SI make update earlier all people can be testers and help to SI. SI make for PC and touch, for mobile we are waiting 7 days for nothing (they make little changes before this date, transfers from PC database...) this is joke, real joke, we are stupid and waiting for dear SI please put upload today, or tomorrow...

From the next year SI must be serious if they want to sell more FMM, to give us, correct date for main patch (release game, winter transfers etc.) No one didn't want to buy something in the air, some mysterious. People want something in his hand, real information, quality relation between seller and buyers. 7-8 EUR is not to much, but if you make jokes with your buyers you lose. SI thinks, just buy game and everything will be ok (we will kick your a..). This is not ok. We want information about update. It will be in etc. Sunday in 12 a.m. or Monday in 11 p.m. SI don't want to communicate with buyers give any information about  this. Doesn't meter which date, we need correct relation, we aren't stupid. I'm here more than 15 years, some of people didn't born then.

[Haiku]

SI never give exact predictions about patch releases. It's because this game is very complex with many people working behind the scenes and anything could happen in the final hour before the planned release, so they must delay it. It's not always SI's fault if they delay the patch. Major bugs can appear out of nowhere so it's better to fix them once they find them instead of releasing something that could create much more discontent among customers. Please accept that it's in your interest to receive the best polished game with the final patch even if you have to wait a bit longer than you expected.

[KUBI]

15 minutes ago, Zeljeznicar said:

From the next year SI must be serious if they want to sell more FMM, to give us, correct date for main patch (release game, winter transfers etc.) 

That's not possible. All patches are tested and are going through different kind of quality testing until they are ready for the public. There will always be a range of days or weeks within a patch could be released. A patch is ready, when it is ready. 

[Zeljeznicar]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

That's not possible. All patches are tested and are going through different kind of quality testing until they are ready for the public. There will always be a range of days or weeks within a patch could be released. A patch is ready, when it is ready. 

Of course, you give answer why FMM have every years less buyers.

This sentence is best way to say how you threat your buyers "A patch is ready, when it is ready". Really?

What's happen if i say "I want to play 6 months and decide if i want to buy (it was be unfair of course , i will threat all SI workers like cheap cattle), but all of you threat all of us like stupid people. Hello? This is 21 century. You are not inquisition to take money for church, this is shopping. If you sell me some product who didn't work i will be back, you can't say. "..just buy it will be work when it is ready". I want now, i want information. This moment, because i pay this before. I speak about already sold product, not about FMM18 or something else. All of you are arrogant  in communication and this is a problem.

[KUBI]

First of all, the product does work. There are some bugs and issues, every software has this problems. SI gather informations about bugs and trying to fix them all. But this is not something you can do with a fixed schedule. Some bugs are easy to fix other very complicated and changing the game code could have side effects. That's the reason why every fix has to be tested before it could be released. This is 21 century. You can't just use a screwdriver and fix a loose bolt. It's a bit more complex.

[Declan Barry]

This is so over dramatic.

 

Firstly, if they give a specific date that means it would have to be approved by Apple and Google first which would mean a longer wait OR a less updated database and more bugs unfixed OR both.

 

Also, bugs happen in every game, every change can give a bug but the game is in working condition. To ask for a flawless game is like asking for world peace.

[SephDarkheart]

im close to  muting the OP. perhaps its time to close the thread? 

[Alari Naylor]

We have to wait on the platform holders, which is what we are doing at the moment. We can't know in advance when we will get approvals.

[Zeljeznicar]

how long you wait last year.. 24 hours..when you send update? we want to know who is guilty for waiting...ok platform holders...but we need this information..this is real si marketing manager...thx mr.Naylor

[Alari Naylor]

I'm not involved in marketing as I'm sure most people on here are well aware, there is a totally separate team which deals with this. We're not going to give out information on exact times of when we submit as it could be used in the future as a precedent, when in reality approval times vary widely, times we submit at vary widely, and there are always possibilities of bugs being found late in the day for future versions that could require a resubmit.

The data update on FMM has never been released by this date previously and we've been working hard to get it out the door. Our database system works totally differently to the PC game so there are an awful lot of checks and tweaks to be made on our side once their data is finalised. It's unpredictable how long this tweaking takes so unrealistic to ever promise an exact date.

[Zeljeznicar]

i know, but in 21.century everything is marketing (communication,nice words...) you are good represent of SI...everything sell game...

[Zeljeznicar]

We don't need no official patch. Everyone who want winter transfers patch all transfers with exist players (more then 800 transfers), please ask in private message i will send you changes.txt file with all transfers who didn't include in FMM17 from date release to today.

[SephDarkheart]

such a crybaby jesus christ

[Zeljeznicar]

C'mon this is not religion forum to call invented figures, this is forum of FM

[Alari Naylor]

Look, we're prepared to take constructive criticism and respond - even if we won't respond with as detailed answers as everyone would want.

However do please cut down on the bickering or I'll have to close the thread. And do please keep criticism civil and constructive.

[Marc Vaughan]

5 hours ago, Zeljeznicar said:

i know, but in 21.century everything is marketing (communication,nice words...) you are good represent of SI...everything sell game...

We do our best to communicate openly with users, however in some aspects its better not to make promises beyond our control - for instance with release dates for updates we're dependent on the platform holders approving applications - sometimes this takes longer than expected and sometimes we have to resubmit things because of unexpected changes or requirements from those holders (especially if they're about to release an OS update or just have).

I apologize if anyone thinks we're 'dodging' questions - but the reality is we're not really 'PR' people here, we're developers, QA and such and doing this support largely 'unofficially' in that its not truly part of our jobs - often in our own time (its 8:10pm here in Florida and I've just finished running a 5k race, then nipped onto the forum to say "Hi" ).

[veerus]

Kind of shocked such a troll thread got the attention of 3 SI folks.  Kudos to the OP. 

[OhHoopedOne]

21 minutes ago, veerus said:

Kind of shocked such a troll thread got the attention of 3 SI folks.  Kudos to the OP. 

How is it a troll thread? 

[steff91]

Someone please just lock this - its clearly going nowhere.

[vikeologist]

19 minutes ago, OhHoopedOne said:

How is it a troll thread? 

I agree with @OhHoopedOne. When posters have different languages and even cultures, sometimes posts are going to be inelegantly put, but the OP got his point across, and raised important issues which SI responded to with quite detailed rationales; kudos to them.

I think we should, and also think SI do, give leeway to people for whom English isn't their first language.

So, although the OP was quite impolite in any language or culture, it wasn't just a troll thread.

 

[FrazT]

There has been considerable input to the OP from SI staff, so please keep this thread on topic or it will be closed.

[DanielJP]

5 hours ago, vikeologist said:

I agree with @OhHoopedOne. When posters have different languages and even cultures, sometimes posts are going to be inelegantly put, but the OP got his point across, and raised important issues which SI responded to with quite detailed rationales; kudos to them.

I think we should, and also think SI do, give leeway to people for whom English isn't their first language.

So, although the OP was quite impolite in any language or culture, it wasn't just a troll thread.

 

You've completely hit the nail on the head. The OP is allowed to ask questions if he has them, and I'm sure in his own language he would've got them across in a more subtle manner. I think SI have realised that and responded really well, even though like they say, they didn't have to. To me, the comments of troll, and in particular crybaby, are pretty pathetic. 

[RSeven]

1. Release date

Based on my experience, I know FMM winter transfer update will release one or two weeks after PC version release. I was supprised to get the forecast date for FMM2017 winter transfer release ( Friday, Mar.10). Because I know SI can not controll the release date. APP store / Google play will release the update. But this is not a big deal.

2. Many fixes in update

I can not tell you real feeling when I saw the change list of winter update. I am happy to see so many issues are fixed by SI. And I am sad I bought a game still with some many issues after 3 hotfixes. If FMM2017 is a free game, I will say nothing. But exactly, FMM is not a cheap game. But I do think we, gamer (the customers) are not respected by SI, the developer of FMM. The released FMM2017 is a disaster from a QA point of view.

3. Obvious bug in winter update

I saw SI admited there is a bug about loan system. This system is adjusted in this update, BUT, this update make thing worse. So, I want challenge SI that how they test the game before release?

And even SI admited this bug, they do not release hotfix ASAP. And saying they will update when more bugs are be found. (not same sentence, but this is my understanding, maybe I am wrong.)

Do not use the excuse like resource, schedule,.... this is internal problem SI need resolve, not customers.

I am wondering the attitude SI to their customers.

Do you think you are doing your bussiness in correct way?

I agree, currently, FMM is the best one in mobile football manager game in market, but this is not the reason you can ignore the feedback your customers.

Final words, exactly, I love this game. I bought it from 2014 and bought two copies from APP sotre for my IPAD and Google play for my android phone. I hope I will see less and less bug in this game, even less new features.

[Johnson20177]

Every game has glitches and bugs.. So what. The point is they work hard to fix them, and then release an update when it is ready to be released, which then has to be approved by different stores etc etc.

People play Grand Theft Auto - This has glitches, bugs, you can hack it, you can mod it. 

People play Fifa - This has glitches, bugs, all sorts.

Every single game has glitches. Get over it. The game runs smoothly, the game doesn't crash. There's the odd issue with it, but it cost £7!!! An xbox, PS4 or PC etc game costs £35+!! People still go and buy them, and don't complain when glitches are found because it's part of a game. 

Let's say they have 50/100 people testing the game. Yes they will find some, they won't find some.. The game then gets released to MILLIONS of people, playing on different consoles, different teams, different leagues, different challenges... It's law of averages.. More people will find more glitches.

Rant Over *drops mic*

[Lillywhite Dean]

23 hours ago, Johnson20177 said:

Every game has glitches and bugs.. So what. The point is they work hard to fix them, and then release an update when it is ready to be released, which then has to be approved by different stores etc etc.

People play Grand Theft Auto - This has glitches, bugs, you can hack it, you can mod it. 

People play Fifa - This has glitches, bugs, all sorts.

Every single game has glitches. Get over it. The game runs smoothly, the game doesn't crash. There's the odd issue with it, but it cost £7!!! An xbox, PS4 or PC etc game costs £35+!! People still go and buy them, and don't complain when glitches are found because it's part of a game. 

Let's say they have 50/100 people testing the game. Yes they will find some, they won't find some.. The game then gets released to MILLIONS of people, playing on different consoles, different teams, different leagues, different challenges... It's law of averages.. More people will find more glitches.

Rant Over *drops mic*

A lot of these bugs are easy to spot. Many of the bugs reported after the release date and then the winter transfer update were highlighted within days, if not hours of the game/update being installed. This proves that a small dedicated team should be able to spot the bugs before the game/update is released.

I suspect it has more to do with the pressures of ensuring the game and then the update is released by certain deadlines. It becomes more about "what can we live with and then try to fix later on" rather than trying to get it perfect first time.

[RSeven]

I want to see the reply from SI QA/QC team.

Please !

[Marc Vaughan]

I can not tell you real feeling when I saw the change list of winter update. I am happy to see so many issues are fixed by SI. And I am sad I bought a game still with some many issues after 3 hotfixes. If FMM2017 is a free game, I will say nothing. But exactly, FMM is not a cheap game. But I do think we, gamer (the customers) are not respected by SI, the developer of FMM. The released FMM2017 is a disaster from a QA point of view.

I think disaster is a very harsh term to use - its disappointing that a few issues have slipped past, but as a programmer I understand how hard it is to QA a product and please realise that frequently it will be something introduced late in the testing cycle which causes the visible bugs users see.

If we don't try and fix as many issues (no matter how minor) as possible then users aren't happy, but the more we fix the harder it is for QA to ensure everything is sane and working - especially if we are fixing up until near the submission deadline.

This isn't an 'excuse' its an attempt to explain the balancing act we try and keep with our products, we try and ensure we get the products as near perfect as possible while at the same time reserving enough time for QA to ensure they're stable and sane across each of the 2,000 plus devices which the products are active upon (Android contributing 1,990 of these ).

This is a big challenge but one we happily take up and hopefully are getting better at each year as we gain in experience.

And even SI admited this bug, they do not release hotfix ASAP. And saying they will update when more bugs are be found. (not same sentence, but this is my understanding, maybe I am wrong.)

We will be releasing hot-fixes as appropriate however generally we do hold such things for a short-term once a fix is implemented for an issue (unless its a true show-stopper) - the reasoning is:
(1) We need to test fixes to ensure they don't cause other issues in the product.
(2) There might be other issues which users might want fixed ASAP which we don't know about yet, we can only do one submission at a time so if we submit a hot-fix with just a single fix in it and it takes a week in Apple submission then subsequent fixes then it would delay the release of other fixes.

I know this isn't ideal and ultimately our aim to get things to the stage where everything is bullet proof at all times, we're working really hard to try and ensure the game is as good as possible, please bear with us and I apologize for any problems you might have which affect your enjoyment of the game.

[RSeven]

10 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

 

I think disaster is a very harsh term to use - its disappointing that a few issues have slipped past, but as a programmer I understand how hard it is to QA a product and please realise that frequently it will be something introduced late in the testing cycle which causes the visible bugs users see.

If we don't try and fix as many issues (no matter how minor) as possible then users aren't happy, but the more we fix the harder it is for QA to ensure everything is sane and working - especially if we are fixing up until near the submission deadline.

This isn't an 'excuse' its an attempt to explain the balancing act we try and keep with our products, we try and ensure we get the products as near perfect as possible while at the same time reserving enough time for QA to ensure they're stable and sane across each of the 2,000 plus devices which the products are active upon (Android contributing 1,990 of these ).

This is a big challenge but one we happily take up and hopefully are getting better at each year as we gain in experience.

 

 

We will be releasing hot-fixes as appropriate however generally we do hold such things for a short-term once a fix is implemented for an issue (unless its a true show-stopper) - the reasoning is:
(1) We need to test fixes to ensure they don't cause other issues in the product.
(2) There might be other issues which users might want fixed ASAP which we don't know about yet, we can only do one submission at a time so if we submit a hot-fix with just a single fix in it and it takes a week in Apple submission then subsequent fixes then it would delay the release of other fixes.

I know this isn't ideal and ultimately our aim to get things to the stage where everything is bullet proof at all times, we're working really hard to try and ensure the game is as good as possible, please bear with us and I apologize for any problems you might have which affect your enjoyment of the game.

I am appreciated your reply, Mrac.

And I am also appreciated the efort you and your team made to FMM2017 which bring us a lot wonderful new features. I beleive these new feature bring you lot of challenge.

I checked the change list in and_changes.txt, there are 172 items mentioned. I tried to divid them into two categories with my understand, "Improvement" and "Bug fix". The number of "Improvement" is about 48, and 124 for "Bug Fix" (7 in v8.01, 15 in v8.02, 3 in v8.03, 50 in v8.1, 49 in v8.2).

I am working in a engineering company, I know that, quality, schedule and cost are always the challenge of a project. But what is the standard for SI to release a game? I agree "compatibility" is important. But I hope this is not the only big thing QA considered.

I don't know what is your internal evaluation of the FMM2017? Are you satisfied with it? What is the lesson learnt from it? What is the improvement plan?

Finally, I want to say the beedback from some gamers I know.

When the new update / version of FMM release, the gamer will not update / purchase it at once. They will  ask "Is there any new bug?" "Are old bugs are fixed?" Only they get postive answer, then they will update / purchase it.

Bug is a tag of FMM now.

 

 

 

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't know what is your internal evaluation of the FMM2017? Are you satisfied with it? What is the lesson learnt from it? What is the improvement plan?

I'm never satisfied with my products - thats one of the things which keeps me working in the industry, I have a notebook file with over 100 pages of things I want to change, improve, add to the game ... these aren't (in the main) things which complicate the games, but evolutions of existing concepts or changes to how things are done to streamline them etc. ...

There are many lessons we've learnt from things and each iteration we attempt to refine our approach to development and QA, I'm afraid I can't publicly go over our improvement plan etc. - but suffice to say we do continually assess our progress and do an extensive post-mortem of any major release to try and ensure we continue to improve as time goes onward.

[RSeven]

On ‎2017‎年‎3‎月‎25‎日 at 22:49, Marc Vaughan said:

 

I'm never satisfied with my products - thats one of the things which keeps me working in the industry, I have a notebook file with over 100 pages of things I want to change, improve, add to the game ... these aren't (in the main) things which complicate the games, but evolutions of existing concepts or changes to how things are done to streamline them etc. ...

There are many lessons we've learnt from things and each iteration we attempt to refine our approach to development and QA, I'm afraid I can't publicly go over our improvement plan etc. - but suffice to say we do continually assess our progress and do an extensive post-mortem of any major release to try and ensure we continue to improve as time goes onward.

I hope it is possilbe to invole some gamers to join the test of FMM beofre it offically release. I believe only 10~20 gamers test 5 days can help a lot to find the bugs.