Planning Ahead - The Deep Lying Playmaker

[anorthernboy]

I used high individual intensity

A bit late but thankyou.

[Cleon]

A bit late but thankyou.

It does state in the opening post high intensity anyways btw

[robterrace]

Heres a quick update of Velazquez, the ML I posted previously..

and Eric Molina, the guy who is the heart of my team DLP/AP wise..

[Babak G]

Cleon, is there a thread dedicated to your 3-1-4-2 formation?

[LilSaint]

short question: would you say it's best to train a specific attribute & PPM at the same time, or separately?

[Mighty Red]

Question for Cleon - what sort of players do you use for the DW(a) positions? Are these wing-back type players (focus on defence, but can create too) or att mids (focus on attack, but got workrate to track back)?

[lewis999]

Question for Cleon - what sort of players do you use for the DW(a) positions? Are these wing-back type players (focus on defence, but can create too) or att mids (focus on attack, but got workrate to track back)?

I think Cleon used Santon and Gutierrez as his DW's so that's one of each I would say. As long as they have the attributes required they will work.

[Cleon]

I think Cleon used Santon and Gutierrez as his DW's so that's one of each I would say. As long as they have the attributes required they will work.

This.

I just used what I had available to me and 2 different types of players to offer me a different way of playing the role without taking anything away from the rest of the side.

[janesy20]

referring to post #40...

how the **** have you done that to Ricardo Kishna?!

I am new to this developing young players side and have been doing the euro academy challenge...however started an Ajax save last night designed to focus entirely on promoting youth. I have two major problems:

1. I just can't settle on a prefferred tactic, i joined 3/4 way through the first season in 3rd place. I won the title in the end but did not play the football I want Ajax to play with 1-0 and 2-0 wins regularily occurring. I played a 4-2-3-1 formation with CM (auto) CM (BWM) AMC (adv. playmaker) AML (inside forward att) AMR (winger support) and an AF.

2. I have read in your other thread you don't believe Ajax have a good squad to begin with and i certainly agree with this. what does your midfield consist of position and role wise to get the best out of Cristian Erikson, as I believe he isn't being as affective as i'd like in this game. At the moment i'm attempting to drop him back as a CM (adv. playmaker) can he play as a deep lying playmaker? can three CMs co-exist or do they get in each others way? is there anyway you could give me a simple explanation of your formation...tactics and player roles or is this giving too much away/against forum rules?

Lastly. i've just got this player through in the youth intake, he's currently learning from Siem De Jong he's tipped to be the best of his generation coming through and i want to make this come true, i know his composure needs working on...but what sort of schedule over a 3/4 year period would you set about training him up? individual first then role when he reaches 20/21? I'd like him to become an AF and lead the line and score many goals

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=129517216

thanks for your help...I love the idea of developing youth i just need to get my head round the tactics as like many people i'm struggling, over complicating things.

[Sleepydude]

2. I have read in your other thread you don't believe Ajax have a good squad to begin with and i certainly agree with this. what does your midfield consist of position and role wise to get the best out of Cristian Erikson, as I believe he isn't being as affective as i'd like in this game. At the moment i'm attempting to drop him back as a CM (adv. playmaker) can he play as a deep lying playmaker? can three CMs co-exist or do they get in each others way? is there anyway you could give me a simple explanation of your formation...tactics and player roles or is this giving too much away/against forum rules?

Cleon said in another thread that with Ajax he used the 4-1-2-2-1 as described in the Understanding Your Tactic thread (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334248-Understanding-Your-Tactic-The-Discussion).

In my Ajax save I use a Fluid 4-1-2-2-1 and I have Eriksen as a CM(a) paired with de Jong who is a CM(s). Works well enough for me.

[lewis999]

Again I don't want to speak for Cleon but I think he said he used Eriksen as his deep lying playmaker further up the thread. He'll correct me if i'm wrong.

[Mighty Red]

This.

I just used what I had available to me and 2 different types of players to offer me a different way of playing the role without taking anything away from the rest of the side.

Thanks Lewis / Cleon.

[Cleon]

Again I don't want to speak for Cleon but I think he said he used Eriksen as his deep lying playmaker further up the thread. He'll correct me if i'm wrong.

Correct yeah. At least I know 100% one person reads everything I write

[tajj 7]

The point by Llama a up from here is VERY INTERESTING and should be noted.

I was chatting a little with Cleon about this yesterday. Recently I've been trying to find ways of getting good players in to cover for my first team whilst my youth chaps are being trained and I was trying not to pay for CA or PA that I won't be using so I CAPPED the maximum skills in areas that I was simply not interested in.

If you can get players that do NOT have skills in areas that they will not be using then you can get some incredible players for relatively low CA/AP and this usually means less money!

Some examples I used:

DC - I capped crossing, corners, penalties, freekicks and finishing at 6.

DM - Capped crossing, corners, freekicks and finishing at 10

AMC - capped tackling, marking, positioning at 10

You can see that I used slightly different levels as some skills can be relatively common and I didnt want to miss out on players because they were good at something, I just didnt want them great at something I wouldn't use.

LAM

How do you cap attributes?

Aye thats true.

If you didn't give him an individual focus and change the team training to 20% or less then team training would shape him depending on what focus you used. So for example if you used fitness team focus then the distribution of the attributes would be placed more on workrate, acceleration pace, agility, balance, jumping, NF, stamina and strength.

So does individual attribute or role traning overide team training? Could you just reduce team training right down and free up more time for inidividual training?

[Cleon]

How do you cap attributes?

So does individual attribute or role traning overide team training? Could you just reduce team training right down and free up more time for inidividual training?

He explains in the post, he sets his filters to 6 for those attributes that he deems he doesn't need a player to have for the role they'll be playing

As for the 2nd question, yes roles override the general training. Individual attribute focus puts more emphasis on that particular attribute but he still trains an optimal amount on his other attributes.

I go into a lot more indepth detail about training in here

Ajax Youth Development – When The Real World Meets Football Manager

[tajj 7]

He explains in the post, he sets his filters to 6 for those attributes that he deems he doesn't need a player to have for the role they'll be playing

As for the 2nd question, yes roles override the general training. Individual attribute focus puts more emphasis on that particular attribute but he still trains an optimal amount on his other attributes.

I go into a lot more indepth detail about training in here

Ajax Youth Development – When The Real World Meets Football Manager

Sorry got confused, I presume he is talking about player search not training players? Thought he saying you could cap a player's development on particular attributes so they didn't waste CA gain.

I'll have another read of that thread, still a bit confused on the whole general training/match training thing. Just looking not to waste CA gain on attributes players don;t need (like long throws or set pieces for a non-set piece taker etc.)

[Cleon]

Sorry got confused, I presume he is talking about player search not training players? Thought he saying you could cap a player's development on particular attributes so they didn't waste CA gain.

I'll have another read of that thread, still a bit confused on the whole general training/match training thing. Just looking not to waste CA gain on attributes players don;t need (like long throws or set pieces for a non-set piece taker etc.)

If you want to get the players to develop the best they can then put general training down to 10% or 20% if you still want match training and give everyone an individual role focus with heavy intensity and then they'll only be training on the attributes for whatever role you select.

[tajj 7]

If you want to get the players to develop the best they can then put general training down to 10% or 20% if you still want match training and give everyone an individual role focus with heavy intensity and then they'll only be training on the attributes for whatever role you select.

Cheers, I think I have general training on 'low' intensity and match preparation training on whatever setting has it the day before.

[lewis999]

Correct yeah. At least I know 100% one person reads everything I write

Haha I bet that's a change. Especially when I see so many comments about things you have already mentioned. It's as if people can't be arsed to read but they're on the forums? It's like going into a shop and asking for a pet.

[Babak G]

A bit off topic but how did the formation play out Cleon rather than simply the DLP?

[Cleon]

A bit off topic but how did the formation play out Cleon rather than simply the DLP?

It's really good but to indepth just to skim over it in a few sentences, hence why there asn't been a thread about it yet because its complex and needs to be wrote about properly if I am to discuss it

Luckily for you, it will be the first part of this

An Idea - The Chalkboard Diaries - Feedback Wanted

[Babak G]

Delighted to hear that as my current experiment with the 3-1-4-2 could use your guidelines!

[Fieldy_21]

I have a quick question regarding PPM's on my save. I bought a young mc in and wanted to teach him "gets into opposition area" and "arrives late in opposition area" so I bought in an ageing Teemu Tainio who possesses both to tutor him. I chose the first option in the tutoring conversation and everybody agreed. 6 months later, I got a message saying it was incredibly successful both on and off the pitch. When I checked, none of Tainio's PPM's have been transferred over to my youngster. Safe to say, I am more than a little disappointed as I think those two PPM's would be perfect with the role i want him to play.

Can anyone notice anything I have done wrong? or a reason behind why they haven't seemed to transfer over?

[Cleon]

I have a quick question regarding PPM's on my save. I bought a young mc in and wanted to teach him "gets into opposition area" and "arrives late in opposition area" so I bought in an ageing Teemu Tainio who possesses both to tutor him. I chose the first option in the tutoring conversation and everybody agreed. 6 months later, I got a message saying it was incredibly successful both on and off the pitch. When I checked, none of Tainio's PPM's have been transferred over to my youngster. Safe to say, I am more than a little disappointed as I think those two PPM's would be perfect with the role i want him to play.

Can anyone notice anything I have done wrong? or a reason behind why they haven't seemed to transfer over?

They don't always transfer over the first time.

[yonko]

Cleon,

What does the PPM "stops play" mean and how does it differ from "dwells on the ball"? Is it something like the tactical instruction "holds up the ball"?

[Cleon]

Cleon,

What does the PPM "stops play" mean and how does it differ from "dwells on the ball"? Is it something like the tactical instruction "holds up the ball"?

Yeah it means he'll hold the ball up and allow players to catch up with play etc

Dwells on ball means the player will take his time in his decision making while on the ball.

[yonko]

Yeah it means he'll hold the ball up and allow players to catch up with play.

Dwells on ball means the player will take his time in his decision making while on the ball.

So the difference between "stops play" and "dwells on the ball" is that with the former the player has already made the decision, while with the latter he hasn't made a decision yet?

What is the purpose of a DLP having "stops play" or "hold up the ball" when most of his teammates are already ahead of him? If they are ahead of him, he doesn't need to wait up for them, does he? I can understand "stops play" for a ST as he waits for his teammates from midfield....but a DLP?

[Cleon]

So the difference between "stops play" and "dwells on the ball" is that with the former the player has already made the decision, while with the latter he hasn't made a decision yet?

What is the purpose of a DLP having "stops play" or "hold up the ball" when most of his teammates are already ahead of him? If they are ahead of him, he doesn't need to wait up for them, does he? I can understand "stops play" for a ST as he waits for his teammates from midfield....but a DLP?

Aye he will take his time before making a decision.

If a DLP has stops play or hold up the ball it can be very useful because it also allows players to take more attacking/supporting positions up and the DLP might see movement in front of him due to late runners etc. It's very useful for DLP's.

[yonko]

Aye he will take his time before making a decision.

If a DLP has stops play or hold up the ball it can be very useful because it also allows players to take more attacking/supporting positions up and the DLP might see movement in front of him due to late runners etc. It's very useful for DLP's.

Does that mean that with or without "stops play", you allow your DLP to "hold up the ball" and look for better options? I never use "hold up the ball" and have never had a DLP with "stops play". That's because on the current ME players already hold on to the ball sometimes too much before passing it for my liking.

[Cleon]

Does that mean that with or without "stops play", you allow your DLP to "hold up the ball" and look for better options? I never use "hold up the ball" and have never had a DLP with "stops play". That's because on the current ME players already hold on to the ball sometimes too much before passing it for my liking.

The DLP in the opening post has that PPM yeah. I like all my DLP's to have those kind of PPM's so they can really dictate a game from deep and offer something different to the rest of my team.

[Babak G]

Would you ever suggest going with 2 DLP in CM in a 4-2-3-1 or its not something that you'd naturally suggest Cleon?

[Cleon]

Would you ever suggest going with 2 DLP in CM in a 4-2-3-1 or its not something that you'd naturally suggest Cleon?

I do use that from time to time yeah, I even use the set up in a 442.

[Babak G]

Would you ever suggest going with 2 DLP in CM in a 4-2-3-1 or its not something that you'd naturally suggest Cleon?

[Cleon]

Would you ever suggest going with 2 DLP in CM in a 4-2-3-1 or its not something that you'd naturally suggest Cleon?

It depends on how the rest of the formation is set up. But I'd certainly favour double DLP over a DLP/BWM or AP combo

[yonko]

I must say, there is some interesting "cause & effect" happening. There are a few threads that are connected to what I'm using tactically, with which team and what period of the season I'm going through (4-2-3-1 with DLP, with Dortmund, pre-season). Or maybe, I'm having this save because of these threads.....?

Cleon, I know you favor 2 DLPs at MC in a 4231 and you don't fancy a BWM, because you've said it multiple times in multiple threads (to show you I read your posts). And I agree with you about the BWM in a 4231, I don't like it either. But what do you think of DLP(defend) + CM(defend) combo behind an AP(support) at AMC? Would you use "hold up ball" and/or teach "stops play" to the DLP on that occasion? Notes:

- the DLP(defend) is my MCL

- AML is IF(attack)

- AP(support) is set as the Playmaker

- AMR is Winger(support)

- ST is DLF(attack) and he has as PPM "stops play", "comes deep"

[Cleon]

I must say, there is some interesting "cause & effect" happening. There are a few threads that are connected to what I'm using tactically, with which team and what period of the season I'm going through (4-2-3-1 with DLP, with Dortmund, pre-season). Or maybe, I'm having this save because of these threads.....?

Cleon, I know you favor 2 DLPs at MC in a 4231 and you don't fancy a BWM, because you've said it multiple times in multiple threads (to show you I read your posts). And I agree with you about the BWM in a 4231, I don't like it either. But what do you think of DLP(defend) + CM(defend) combo behind an AP(support) at AMC? Would you use "hold up ball" and/or teach "stops play" to the DLP on that occasion? Notes:

- the DLP(defend) is my MCL

- AML is IF(attack)

- AP(support) is set as the Playmaker

- AMR is Winger(support)

- ST is DLF(attack) and he has as PPM "stops play", "comes deep"

That is exactly how I'd play with 1 exception - the striker. I'm a fan of CM's.

I wouldn't have him as a DLF as you've got a inside forward and a AP all playing in a similar position. I know you'd use an attack duty for the DLF but at times you'd find you lacked someone up front to aim for. I'd be more inclined to use either an AF or CF

However if you did use a DLF then I'd have him support and the AMC on an attack duty. I'd try and get the DLF to play with back to goal too. It works great together.

[yonko]

That is exactly how I'd play with 1 exception - the striker. I'm a fan of CM's.

I wouldn't have him as a DLF as you've got a inside forward and a AP all playing in a similar position. I know you'd use an attack duty for the DLF but at times you'd find you lacked someone up front to aim for. I'd be more inclined to use either an AF or CF

However if you did use a DLF then I'd have him support and the AMC on an attack duty. I'd try and get the DLF to play with back to goal too. It works great together.

It's funny you would say that about the ST, because I've been going back and forth in my mind between DLF(attack) and AF(attack). The ST is Lewandowski if you haven't guessed that already. I also have Fierro as his back up. My idea is for the ST and AML to score the goals, while the AMC and AMR to be the creators and set them up, mainly the AMC (Gotze, of course). The DLP (Sahin) and the CM-defend (Bender) are tasked with recycling the ball and transitioning it from my defense to offense.

But my question to you was different, since this thread is about the DLP. Should I have my DLP "hold up the ball" and/or learn "stops play", given the rest of my set up, especially the fact that I've manually selected the AMC to be my playmaker? I forgot to add that my AMC as AP(support) has been given roaming on (manually). The idea behind that is that due to the big mentality difference between my DLP at MCL and my IF(attack) at AML, there would be space where Gotze could get into and create/link the players. On the other side I have the AMR as the second creator. I have two type of players for that position - one is a typical winger (Blaszczykowski), while the other one is more of a creative type midfielder (Leitner), both right-footed. Eitherway, that role doesn't have roaming on. BTW, my fullbacks are on support duty for now, but either one or both could easily be given attack duty, if I need to (I'm sure I will in some games).

Anyway, this has turned into a long description, but that is because I know you like to be given plenty of info when asked for advice. I just wanted you to know how the players in front and around the DLP are set up and why (what is my actually idea).

For now, and as always, my DLP and CM-defend do not have "hold up the ball" (it's ticked to "no") and they are passing the ball nicely, accurately and quickly in the friendlies I've played. Of course, I'm just before playing Bayern M for the German Supercup, so I'll see what happens against my toughest opponent.

p.s. I will go over to the other thread to let you know how my pre-season has gone so far. Come on, aren't you starting a save with Dortmund already?

[Cleon]

It's funny you would say that about the ST, because I've been going back and forth in my mind between DLF(attack) and AF(attack). The ST is Lewandowski if you haven't guessed that already. I also have Fierro as his back up. My idea is for the ST and AML to score the goals, while the AMC and AMR to be the creators and set them up, mainly the AMC (Gotze, of course). The DLP (Sahin) and the CM-defend (Bender) are tasked with recycling the ball and transitioning it from my defense to offense.

Although the shape is different, the type of play you want to create and the ideas you have are same as the Understanding Your Tactic thread that I did. That was my aim to get Bale scoring and playing almost as a striker. Quite funny how a few months later this is now how he plays IRL

But my question to you was different, since this thread is about the DLP. Should I have my DLP "hold up the ball" and/or learn "stops play", given the rest of my set up, especially the fact that I've manually selected the AMC to be my playmaker? I forgot to add that my AMC as AP(support) has been given roaming on (manually). The idea behind that is that due to the big mentality difference between my DLP at MCL and my IF(attack) at AML, there would be space where Gotze could get into and create/link the players. On the other side I have the AMR as the second creator. I have two type of players for that position - one is a typical winger (Blaszczykowski), while the other one is more of a creative type midfielder (Leitner), both right-footed. Eitherway, that role doesn't have roaming on. BTW, my fullbacks are on support duty for now, but either one or both could easily be given attack duty, if I need to (I'm sure I will in some games).

It honestly depends. If you feel the current settings are working then I'd steer clear of changing something if its not broken.What you could do with HUB is use it as a weapon against sides who don't close your midfield down. You could add it when you feel the player will have a lot of time on the ball, it can be good against teams who sit deep against you. By giving them extra time on the ball they might allow someone more advance to turn or lose his marker or try and create some kind of movement.

I like my DLP's to all have the PPM's like described in the opening post but I know that doesn't suit everyone as that is just my personal preference.

Anyway, this has turned into a long description, but that is because I know you like to be given plenty of info when asked for advice. I just wanted you to know how the players in front and around the DLP are set up and why (what is my actually idea).

I appreciate the detail it allows me to see a better picture in my mind of what you are trying to create. I also like the ideas of how you are trying to set up and the logic for doing it. It's actually the same style I'd be trying to create too if I was Dortmund

[yonko]

Although the shape is different, the type of play you want to create and the ideas you have are same as the Understanding Your Tactic thread that I did. That was my aim to get Bale scoring and playing almost as a striker. Quite funny how a few months later this is now how he plays IRL

LOL, you must've emailed your FM tactic to AVB to use with Tottenham IRL or the Portuguese is a secret reader of this forum here.

It honestly depends. If you feel the current settings are working then I'd steer clear of changing something if its not broken.What you could do with HUB is use it as a weapon against sides who don't close your midfield down. You could add it when you feel the player will have a lot of time on the ball, it can be good against teams who sit deep against you. By giving them extra time on the ball they might allow someone more advance to turn or lose his marker or try and create some kind of movement.

TBH, my set up hasn't been tested properly and extensively yet, but I like my MCs passing the ball quickly around and through oppositions' pressure. I will certainly keep in mind what you suggest against lesser opponents who sit deeper, where I would perhaps need to instruct my MCs to hold the ball, draw opposition towards them and wait for better openings in front of them.

I like my DLP's to all have the PPM's like described in the opening post but I know that doesn't suit everyone as that is just my personal preference.

Not only it is up to each user's preference, but it also depends on the type of players and team one plays with and against.

I appreciate the detail it allows me to see a better picture in my mind of what you are trying to create. I also like the ideas of how you are trying to set up and the logic for doing it. It's actually the same style I'd be trying to create too if I was Dortmund

That's good to know and appreciated on my part too. It would be nice to see you play with Dortmund at the same time as me and possibly continue discussing more specifically, exchange ideas, etc. BTW, check the other thread about pre-season, I just posted there a screenshot for you to see and comment on.

[Riziger]

Hey Cleon,

Would you say that having contradictory PPMs would be detrimental to players in the slightly lower leagues?

I'm Cardiff in the Championship and my AMR (IF) is a left-footed creator who also gets a few goals. He already has Cuts Inside, and I made the mistake of making him learn runs with ball down the right (meaning he was showing himself to weak foot).

After learning what moves into channels does, I am keen for my both Inside forwards to have it so they create movement and find space. My question is, if they also have the cut inside ppm, does this then affect what they do by them relying on their decisons stat? Would it make them less effective IFs? seeing as they would them cut inside less?

My logic is they would find space (between the lines) and when they receive the ball, cut inside onto the stronger foot and take a shot/pass.

I've also read that having "runs with ball through centre" is a useful one to have with Inside Forwards as once they cut inside they will dribble towards goal in the central area of the pitch?

Let me know what you think.

[tajj 7]

Is there a thread or list somewhere about good combinations of PPMs to have for each role?

[vkastanas]

Check this out:

http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/preferred-moves

[Cleon]

Is there a thread or list somewhere about good combinations of PPMs to have for each role?

Not really because if you asked each person they'd vary. It all depends on how you play and how they can benefit your system rather than a standard template

[Falahk]

Not really because if you asked each person they'd vary. It all depends on how you play and how they can benefit your system rather than a standard template

indeed, you could see rashidi teaching his highly aggressive defensive player "does not dive into tackles", while I would do my best to get rid of the very same ppm whenever I encounter it

[tajj 7]

Not really because if you asked each person they'd vary. It all depends on how you play and how they can benefit your system rather than a standard template

Yeh understand that but it's good to have an indication of common ones associated with a role.

Check this out:

http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/preferred-moves

thanks.

[Rashidi]

Aye thats true.

If you didn't give him an individual focus and change the team training to 20% or less then team training would shape him depending on what focus you used. So for example if you used fitness team focus then the distribution of the attributes would be placed more on workrate, acceleration pace, agility, balance, jumping, NF, stamina and strength.

Which is why I am a firm advocate of establishing the kind of "players you want to see develop". By focusing on specific team areas on a rotation, you can skew development a certain way. I was initially pretty resistant to the training changes, but now having put it through the grinder, while we can still to some extent produce cookie cutter builds, there's a bit of fine-tuning around which makes training a bit more realistic and less "gamey".

It was always around this time, when I'd head into my cave, and disappear cos the game had me bored, its so different now

[Cleon]

Yeh understand that but it's good to have an indication of common ones associated with a role.

See, personally I don't think you can have an indication of common ones for a role because it depends on what system, playstyle, structure and what roles are used around the player that determine what kind of PPM's he will have.

Which is why I am a firm advocate of establishing the kind of "players you want to see develop". By focusing on specific team areas on a rotation, you can skew development a certain way. I was initially pretty resistant to the training changes, but now having put it through the grinder, while we can still to some extent produce cookie cutter builds, there's a bit of fine-tuning around which makes training a bit more realistic and less "gamey".

It was always around this time, when I'd head into my cave, and disappear cos the game had me bored, its so different now

I've been around for 2 years now without taking a break and that's purely down to player development. Like you, I used to take a break from Feb til August:)

[vkastanas]

I've been around for 2 years now without taking a break and that's purely down to player development

And we are thankfull for that!

[lewis999]

I tick hold up ball for people that are playing between the lines. Not as a rule but if i'm playing against a 4-4-2 and I have 2 CM's and a DM I will give it to the DM if I just have two CM's then neither of them get it.

[Gee_Simpson]

That is exactly how I'd play with 1 exception - the striker. I'm a fan of CM's.

I wouldn't have him as a DLF as you've got a inside forward and a AP all playing in a similar position. I know you'd use an attack duty for the DLF but at times you'd find you lacked someone up front to aim for. I'd be more inclined to use either an AF or CF

However if you did use a DLF then I'd have him support and the AMC on an attack duty. I'd try and get the DLF to play with back to goal too. It works great together.

This seems obvious but by CM's do you mean Central Midfielders? It's just in the context of that sentence I was thinking maybe it had something to do with you mentioning the striker.