Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

[aiston]

Replaying the match to see if it was a one off. Am 3-0 down at half time. Neymar has made 11 runs.All 3 goals have come thanks to his runs.

I know it's Neymar and he's a top player. But this is ridiculous.

Neymar is unstoppable it seems, seems to suddenly be the fastest player in the world and runs through anyone.

[scott MUFC]

why is my keeper the player running round picking up the ball to play it for opposition set pieces all of a sudden?

[Ragazzo_SLB]

I could write about many subjects related to ME. But only speak of shots on goal going to the post!

In 39 games, here's the number of shots in the post every game:

2,1,1,3,0,5,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,0,0,2,0,5,0,0,0,4,1,2,2,3,3,1,2,2,2,1,0,5,2,0,2,2.

Absolutely unbelievable.

Is this the best FM of all time? In my opinion, is the WORST ever.

[hkthui]

Kriss,

I paid for a supposedly finished product, not for an ongoing project that would eventually become "great". This is not an MMORPG.

If reverting to v13.1.3 ME is impossible, how about reverting the whole game to v13.1.3? This should be technically feasible, right? I don't care much about the non ME changes in between. At least with the v13.1.3 ME, the football games are more realistic (not saying they are perfect, but better than the current version) and enjoyable. Games with the current ME does not resemble modern football at all.

[MacZidane]

I could write about many subjects related to ME. But only speak of shots on goal going to the post!

In 39 games, here's the number of shots in the post every game:

2,1,1,3,0,5,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,0,0,2,0,5,0,0,0,4,1,2,2,3,3,1,2,2,2,1,0,5,2,0,2,2.

Absolutely unbelievable.

Is this the best FM of all time? In my opinion, is the WORST ever.

The very fact you've taken the time to document this speaks volumes, IMO.

When I see a shot hitting the post or the bar, I see it as a chance missed, either for or against. No more, no less. For others, it's the basis of a whole conspiracy.

It's actually getting quite pathetic now. We even have a chap further up moaning that in a two legged tie, the home tie was considerably easier

[AAlywan]

I wonder, how are they supposed to work on FM 14, if not even until march/april they can't finish FM 13 ?

[Kriss]

I wonder, how are they supposed to work on FM 14, if not even until march/april they can't finish FM 13 ?

Incredible as it might seem they have more than one employee.

[Kriss]

Kriss,

I paid for a supposedly finished product, not for an ongoing project that would eventually become "great". This is not an MMORPG.

If reverting to v13.1.3 ME is impossible, how about reverting the whole game to v13.1.3? This should be technically feasible, right? I don't care much about the non ME changes in between. At least with the v13.1.3 ME, the football games are more realistic (not saying they are perfect, but better than the current version) and enjoyable. Games with the current ME does not resemble modern football at all.

I've explained till I'm blue in the face, no complex software is ever finished when it's released which means the most important thing becomes the willingness of the developer to continue fixing problems after release.

Although in law if it works it is complete technically, SI don't accept that as the standard and will continue working on it long after they're actually bounden to.

I've also explained why this year the ME development is very much a one off but once again it's perfectly playable even with it's current faults which SI are committed to ironing out as soon as they can.

Anybody who has played FM for more than a couple of years knows this is how it works.

Anyone who has kept in touch with progress over the last two or three years knows why the rewrite of the ME was a neccessity.

There will be no rolling back, at this stage it would be totally pointless even if it is technically possible.

Edit: Actually reading that back I realise that an awful lot of people won't be aware of that history, it would be rather nice if somebody from SI wrote a potted history of progress over the last few years which would do much to explain why what is happening now is totally necessary and for the good of the game (and ultimately us) in the long term.

Sadly I suspect most of them have stopped reading these threads because of the constant vitriol and idiocy which continues to obscure the extremely valuable contributions of some people.

Fortunately the bugs forum at least makes up for that.

[treble_yell_:-)]

So it's a race to the bottom ? PaulC more or less admitted pre release that he wasn't happy with the ME.

SI shouldn't be holding up developers that use the "ship it broken, fix it later if they moan" model as the benchmark, especially considering the recent backlashes developers have received of late.

The thing with bug fixes in other games is this - If Bethesda fix a crash bug , or a glitch in Skyrim, the game doesn't change. When SI start fiddling with the ME , the game can be wildly different in March from the product that was released in November. It's great that SI are willing to support the game post release, but they shouldn't be shipping a title that they don't feel is good enough to stand on its own merits

[Kriss]

So it's a race to the bottom ? PaulC more or less admitted pre release that he wasn't happy with the ME.

SI shouldn't be holding up developers that use the "ship it broken, fix it later if they moan" model as the benchmark, especially considering the recent backlashes developers have received of late.

The thing with bug fixes in other games is this - If Bethesda fix a crash bug , or a glitch in Skyrim, the game doesn't change. When SI start fiddling with the ME , the game can be wildly different in March from the product that was released in November. It's great that SI are willing to support the game post release, but they shouldn't be shipping a title that they don't feel is good enough to stand on its own merits

I understand what you're saying but how many times does it have to be expalined that this is a one off year for the ME and there are very valid reasons for that.

And SI aren't using that as a benchmark, that's me trying to explain my understanding of it (inadequately it seems )

[treble_yell_:-)]

I understand what you're saying but how many times does it have to be explained that this is a one off year for the ME and there are very valid reasons for that.

And SI aren't using that as a benchmark, that's me trying to explain my understanding of it (inadequately it seems )

I understand it's a one off (though not the first time it's happened in the games history) But if you're right, then SI intentionally released a ME that they knew wasn't fully retail worthy, so they could fix it for future iterations of the franchise.

All it would have taken was a line on the box / Steam page saying - "FM13 ME is a WiP , updates may change game experience" and/or a developer being honest with the community and telling people it might be a bumpy ride - but it's for the good of the series.

Note : I'm only playing devil's advocate , I'm not greatly enjoying the game at the moment, but I'm not hating it, the ME has some massive positives, they are just outweighed by the niggles at the moment.

[hkthui]

Kriss,

In this case, SI simply made the wrong business decision. I reckon SI changes the ME in the hope of expanding FM"s user base. Veterans of the series may be more forgiving on FM 2013's faulty ME, but new players will most likely be put off by it. IMHO, SI should incorporate the new ME only when it is ready. They should use the old ME for FM 2013 instead. Many other successful games also update their game engines, such as the FIFA series. What they do not do is to release a game with a half-broken WIP new engine.

Seriously, you can explain the history of FM series and the ME until your face is blue, but new players will only see a poor ME and avoid the series in the future.

[milnerpoint]

Dangerous road Kriss

[Kriss]

then SI intentionally released a ME that they knew wasn't fully retail worthy, so they could fix it for future iterations of the franchise.

They didn't, it was as far as they could tell fully playable and PaulC did very early on point out that it might well be two steps forward one step back to get it it to perfection (although he's he's always also said it will never be perfect, at least in his eyes:))

They weren't deliberately deceiving people and they also gave access to the Beta version so people had an unusual early opportunity to make their own judgements, that as well as the demo.

[Kriss]

Kriss,

I reckon SI changes the ME in the hope of expanding FM"s user base. .

No they didn't the new ME was released because the old one (it was actually the FM11 ME btw) had reached the limits of adjustability, there was no way to improve it without an extensive rewrite and the only proper test of such a rewrite was always going to be the user base, because no developer can possibly provide testing facilities to find all the glitches in such a complex piece of software.

The main tool for expanding the user base and winning back old recaltricants was FMC and that appears to have been highly successful, even in it's infancy as it is.

Delaying its release by yet another year would have meant minimal improvements compared with the giant leaps it can make with the feedback from so many informed people with a wealth of football knowledge.

[Kriss]

Dangerous road Kriss

My last attempt, there are too many people who don't actually want to understand tbh.

[treble_yell_:-)]

They didn't, it was as far as they could tell fully playable and PaulC did very early on point out that it might well be two steps forward one step back to get it it to perfection (although he's he's always also said it will never be perfect, at least in his eyes:))

They weren't deliberately deceiving people and they also gave access to the Beta version so people had an unusual early opportunity to make their own judgements, that as well as the demo.

When asked if he felt the retail version was of a release quality he said "I can't answer that, the ME is what it is". His 2 steps forward one step back comment was a week before retail.

PaulC also said the beta was important for SI to get the ME is a half decent state for release, they weren't doing us a favour letting people who had put up the money early help them get the game ready. Lots of the usual faces were falling over themselves to tell us it wasn't a realbeta, that we weren't really testing the game, only for SI to tell us differently.

If SI had went with the BETA ME the game would have been critically savaged, and would have utterly deserved it. Most the stuff in here is utter nonsense , or just full of hyperbole, but SI haven't exactly covered themselves in glory with FM13. You have to feel for Neil Brock, as he is the only one ever willing to stick his head above the parapet at SI towers.

My last post on this as well, we have different opinions on SI's attitude towards its user base, even if I agree with you on a lot of what you said.

[kampos82]

Kriss,

I paid for a supposedly finished product, not for an ongoing project that would eventually become "great". This is not an MMORPG.

If reverting to v13.1.3 ME is impossible, how about reverting the whole game to v13.1.3? This should be technically feasible, right? I don't care much about the non ME changes in between. At least with the v13.1.3 ME, the football games are more realistic (not saying they are perfect, but better than the current version) and enjoyable. Games with the current ME does not resemble modern football at all.

Completely agree.

To sum up the ME errors in my Arsenal-game playing against QPR at home Ji-Sung Park dribbled from near the half way line and scored like Maradona. Nuff said.

[milnerpoint]

When asked if he felt the retail version was of a release quality he said "I can't answer that, the ME is what it is". His 2 steps forward one step back comment was a week before retail.

PaulC also said the beta was important for SI to get the ME is a half decent state for release, they weren't doing us a favour letting people who had put up the money early help them get the game ready. Lots of the usual faces were falling over themselves to tell us it wasn't a realbeta, that we weren't really testing the game, only for SI to tell us differently.

If SI had went with the BETA ME the game would have been critically savaged, and would have utterly deserved it. Most the stuff in here is utter nonsense , or just full of hyperbole, but SI haven't exactly covered themselves in glory with FM13. You have to feel for Neil Brock, as he is the only one ever willing to stick his head above the parapet at SI towers.

Without wading too much into this pointless debate, i'm not sure who the "usual faces" your referencing are, but i cannot remember anyone saying it wasnt a beta for testing on, infact us "fanboys" were the ones constantly saying its a beta, give it time.

Its also worth pointing out before the "constructive critisiscm" became nothing more than full on abuse (hence why we now have new forum rules) the SI dev's were in the feedback threads, posting every 5th/6th post, now they rightly avoid getting involved. Its our fault its come to this, not theirs.

[Kriss]

You have to feel for Neil Brock, as he is the only one ever willing to stick his head above the parapet at SI towers.

Nah, he gets paid to, I don't and it is his job as forum chief, other SI staff are very busy in the bugs forum in particular and they read the feedback threads extensively.

Never feel sorry for Brockie is my motto

[milnerpoint]

Never feel sorry for Brockie is my motto

Its hard to feel sorry for someone when you have been told they sleep on a bed of money and wear enough gold chains to look like Goldie.

[hkthui]

A bad apple could potentially harm the series more than you think. Good examples are Dragon Age and Final Fantasy. The main saving grace for FM is that it is more or less the only football simulator out there.

[MightyBlade]

I cannot understand why rolling it back won't even be considered. Like someone else said almost start again because the last two updates have been a calamity.

It's a refusal to hold your hands up and say we had made a **** up, instead of keep playing about with something that doesn't work particularly well, we are going to roll it back and have another go.

[Kriss]

A bad apple could potentially harm the series more than you think. Good examples are Dragon Age and Final Fantasy. The main saving grace for FM is that it is more or less the only football simulator out there.

It's not a bad apple. it's an unripened peach

[milnerpoint]

The FM ME is like building a new F1 car, you put a new part on, it may initially slow the car down slightly, but when the engineers have figured it out properly it can take a second off the lap time................

(dont ban me)

[Kriss]

Fruit analogies are fine, car analogies are verboten, so wotchit!

[milnerpoint]

Fruit analogies are fine, car analogies are verboten, so wotchit!

So is speaking in a foreign language

I've got my eye on you.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Without wading too much into this pointless debate, i'm not sure who the "usual faces" your referencing are, but i cannot remember anyone saying it wasnt a beta for testing on, infact us "fanboys" were the ones constantly saying its a beta, give it time.

Its also worth pointing out before the "constructive criticism" became nothing more than full on abuse (hence why we now have new forum rules) the SI dev's were in the feedback threads, posting every 5th/6th post, now they rightly avoid getting involved. Its our fault its come to this, not theirs.

It wasn't aimed at you , if that is what you are thinking.

And this isn't aimed at Kriss, but if the feedback threads got so out of hand the devs won't post in them......maybe the mods should be heavier handed in their moderation of the forum.

Why even bother having the feedback threads if SI want no part in them, a sticky pointing people towards the bugs forum and a heavy handed use of the ban stick would cull most the angst.

[Kriss]

It wasn't aimed at you , if that is what you are thinking.

And this isn't aimed at Kriss, but if the feedback threads got so out of hand the devs won't post in them......maybe the mods should be heavier handed in their moderation of the forum.

Why even bother having the feedback threads if SI want no part in them, a sticky pointing people towards the bugs forum and a heavy handed use of the ban stick would cull most the angst.

I'm ruthless, it's the others

@ Milnerpoint the ME is Vorsprung durch Technik, whatever they all say

[Bluemagic21]

Well if you look at the blog videos, it does say work in progress. So si never mislead you.

[milnerpoint]

It wasn't aimed at you , if that is what you are thinking.

And this isn't aimed at Kriss, but if the feedback threads got so out of hand the devs won't post in them......maybe the mods should be heavier handed in their moderation of the forum.

Why even bother having the feedback threads if SI want no part in them, a sticky pointing people towards the bugs forum and a heavy handed use of the ban stick would cull most the angst.

They dont have to post to take notice of what is being said. They will still read the threads, they just dont want to get as involved as they were at the start, if you go onto most game forums you will barely see dev's getting involved. SI have always been different in they were happy to be a lot more involved, unfortunately it seems the over the top abuse has stopped them getting as involved.

You know banning people wont stop anything, there is nothing on here to stop anyone signing up for a second account unless they start banning IP address's and even then its next to impossible, you try to control what is being said, rather than ban every single account that speaks out of turn.

[Mons]

It wasn't aimed at you , if that is what you are thinking.

And this isn't aimed at Kriss, but if the feedback threads got so out of hand the devs won't post in them......maybe the mods should be heavier handed in their moderation of the forum.

Why even bother having the feedback threads if SI want no part in them, a sticky pointing people towards the bugs forum and a heavy handed use of the ban stick would cull most the angst.

The feedback thread is worthwhile as among all the swathes of **** (i.e. ill-informed opinion, plain wrongness and misinterpretation of the facts) lies an odd nugget of worthwhile feedback.

Too heavy-handed a use of the banning stick would have a knock-on effect of people complaining their post was deleted/modded 'because SI don't want criticism' and possibly some people being wary of posting when in reality they would have a point in posting.

Edit: The forums have pretty much always been like this ever since I signed up just over 13 years ago. The only difference is that the average poster is more vocally vituperative and less patient, with the result that the general tone of the forums becomes one of over-blown frustration, even on things which are relatively minor. Unfortunately, he who shouts loudest is heard most, but I think SI do a pretty good job at selecting what is valid and what isn't.

As a mod contributor for many years now, I have realised that it is in the nature of people to moan and complain unreservedly, and to blame anything and anybody else for their mistakes/misfortunes. I've had people complaining about the free mod which we provide and demanding stuff, so I can readily understand (but not agree with) why people would do so with a game which they have paid for.

Anyway, I doubt this last part of the thread is assisting SI as per the purpose thereof

[Kriss]

The feedback thread is worthwhile as among all the swathes of **** (i.e. ill-informed opinion, plain wrongness and misinterpretation of the facts) lies an odd nugget of worthwhile feedback.

Too heavy-handed a use of the banning stick would have a knock-on effect of people complaining their post was deleted/modded 'because SI don't want criticism' and possibly some people being wary of posting when in reality they would have a point in posting.

Valid points, we do try to be even handed and most bans have been temporary.

[Govnar1]

I can't disagree that some people are ridiculously defensive of the game at times in the face of pretty convincing evidence to the contrary, but nevertheless plenty of people are ridiculously critical at times too and we let their comments stand as well.

You should not let them stand, deleting all the useless post would make this tread much more readable (perhaps even enjoyable).

And this isn't aimed at Kriss, but if the feedback threads got so out of hand the devs won't post in them......maybe the mods should be heavier handed in their moderation of the forum.

More aggressive moderation would be really appreciated.

[jasse]

Fruit analogies are fine, car analogies are verboten, so wotchit!

Kriss, ones again dont mean to be ignorant, but if you are serious (and I assume you are), why are car analogies forbidden?

cheers and thanx in advance!

[milnerpoint]

Kriss, ones again dont mean to be ignorant, but if you are serious (and I assume you are), why are car analogies forbidden?

cheers and thanx in advance!

Because people were insistant that buying a copy of FM was exactly like buying a car, which is clearly mental. After a while i guess the mods became fed up of reading pointless analogies that proved nothing.

[Kriss]

Kriss, ones again dont mean to be ignorant, but if you are serious (and I assume you are), why are car analogies forbidden?

cheers and thanx in advance!

I don't know tbh probably because so many were ridiculous in the extreme, and let's be honest they are inappropriate in the context of FM.

[hluraven]

I think there may be a big difference playing with top clubs/players as little ones.

I'm in BSS and in April the highest scoring team in the league average less than 1.5 goals per game. Also, I've been on hard tackling with shouts to press/tackle even harder and average just 0.4 yellow cards per game.

To me, it looks like the tweaks to stop top players doing too much have made lower end players do nothing much. I have also had next to no injuries all season long, I don't think I have had more than one player injured at a time all season long.

[Graham206]

I just wish people wouldn't exaggerate so much. I'm not particularly pleased with the latest changes. I'd built my tactics around solid defence, denying the opposition chances and counter attacking which had been working well, even if the actual number of shots wasn't accurate. I won one game 3-0 having only 9 shots and the opposition three. Now I'm getting thirty odd shots per game but sometime the opposition get twenty too, and even with low shot conversion if they have that many sometimes they will score three.

So for me the game isn't now working as well as a few weeks ago. But I've racked up hundreds of hours: cost per hour is down to a few pence. That is the opposite of "unplayable". The people at SI worked to provide an update on Christmas Eve, which shows real commitment to customer service. If you play any MMORPG there's constant re-balancing going on: it's absolutely impossible to produce complex software which works perfectly, first time, for everyone. It's a slow process of fix one thing which often causes a problem somewhere else and requires another fix.

I'm not happy with the current game balance and and the latest changes seem to have caused more problems than they fixed but a game on which many people rack up hundreds of hours is definitely not "broken" or "unplayable".

[Cedrik]

The last update wasn't that good for the game imo.

Why did the amount of through balls get tuned down? Now I have smart creative player who most of the time do stupid things like shooting from a long range, with that I also don't understand why SI tuned that attribute up? Why the hell would want to let players give less passes and more shots on goal (read: wasting the ball). Is this some kind of joke? Pity this. I was really happy and full of praise about FM 13 so far. This last update I just don't get, it's like SI wanting to destroy their own good work.

[milnerpoint]

I just wish people wouldn't exaggerate so much. I'm not particularly pleased with the latest changes. I'd built my tactics around solid defence, denying the opposition chances and counter attacking which had been working well, even if the actual number of shots wasn't accurate. I won one game 3-0 having only 9 shots and the opposition three. Now I'm getting thirty odd shots per game but sometime the opposition get twenty too, and even with low shot conversion if they have that many sometimes they will score three.

So for me the game isn't now working as well as a few weeks ago. But I've racked up hundreds of hours: cost per hour is down to a few pence. That is the opposite of "unplayable". The people at SI worked to provide an update on Christmas Eve, which shows real commitment to customer service. If you play any MMORPG there's constant re-balancing going on: it's absolutely impossible to produce complex software which works perfectly, first time, for everyone. It's a slow process of fix one thing which often causes a problem somewhere else and requires another fix.

I'm not happy with the current game balance and and the latest changes seem to have caused more problems than they fixed but a game on which many people rack up hundreds of hours is definitely not "broken" or "unplayable".

Sums it up beautifully. Well said.

[Mensell76]

@Kriss:

You keep referring to the ME being a process of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Can you in all honesty state your opinion on 13.2.1 compared to 13.1.3. In which regard is 13.2.1 still a step forward compared to 13.1.3? Which update has your preference and why?

By the way, I also want to make a firm statement that I find even this ME far superior to the FM2012 ME. Not in terms of how it is playing in its current state but the potential shown in 13.1.3 clearly shows SI has taken the right direction. I also think a lot of new customers will love 13.2.1. Is it realistic? No it is not at the moment, but seen through the eyes of that 12 year old: there is a lot of spectacular dribbling, a great variety in goals and enough tackling and physicality going on at the moment.

I guess for the people who are seeking that true simulation of real life football (I am amongst of them) this ME just does not feel right.

PaulC more or less apologised for the fact that the shots on goal were on the low side at 13.1.3 but that was just by a slight margin and was mainly because of the long shots and set piece effectiveness not working properly. Other than that SI, with 13.1.3, has never been so close in simulating real life football. I for one loved the fact that some of my team's matches were drab to watch. After a European match my team sometimes looked without inspiration and the matches were boring but I still managed a professional win or a difficult draw. That in itself gave me the best feeling on FM2013. I am not looking for spectacular highlights in every match. I am looking for a logical representation of real life football and to be rewarded for my managerial decisions.

My constructive but also negative feedback on 13.2.1 is by no means intended to offend SI. On contrary I am trying to back up their approach on a previous ME version. And I second MacZidane's remark that there were only a handful of us voicing our love for 13.1.3 when it was released which truly is a shame. The game at the moment is not at all unplayable. It just is not my cup of tea at the moment.

[El Casa De Munson]

I've only played half a season, 2 things I've noticed.

The ball accelerates after it's kicked. This is such an obvious thing that I'm genuinely concerned my version of the game is corrupted or something.

Through balls seem to have been removed from the game, I haven't seen one yet.

Edit: I just saw one!

The best thing you could do is just drop the 2012 ME back in, or give us the option, I'd take that in a heartbeat.

[Kriss]

@Kriss:

You keep referring to the ME being a process of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Can you in all honesty state your opinion on 13.2.1 compared to 13.1.3. In which regard is 13.2.1 still a step forward compared to 13.1.3? Which update has your preference and why?

13.2.1 was a hotfix to adjust two glaring errors, it improved them but hasn't quite done enough and appears to have had a knock on in a couple of other areas.

I find it a trifle of an improvement overall, but the areas it addressed didn't affect me much anyway because of the level I play at, i.e. my players aren't good enough to be much affected :o

[Kriss]

The best thing you could do is just drop the 2012 ME back in, or give us the option, I'd take that in a heartbeat.

Please stop harping on about this, it isn't going to happen period, sorry but that's a fact.

[El Casa De Munson]

Sorry, not read through all this, only got the game yesterday.

Final thing, long shots, got everyone on "Rarely" and they continuously balloon it over the bar from 30 yards.

[Keyzer Soze]

Well,

Since the trend of the thread seems to be all about asking for the old stuff back... here it goes:

- The games is unplayable because the new goal net are rubish! Just bring the FM2012 goal nets back!

- The "start a new game" button is awful! Just bring the FM2012 "start a new game" button back!

Oh, btw... love the comment from Mons!

[Chris21]

Kriss,

I paid for a supposedly finished product, not for an ongoing project that would eventually become "great". This is not an MMORPG.

If reverting to v13.1.3 ME is impossible, how about reverting the whole game to v13.1.3? This should be technically feasible, right? I don't care much about the non ME changes in between. At least with the v13.1.3 ME, the football games are more realistic (not saying they are perfect, but better than the current version) and enjoyable. Games with the current ME does not resemble modern football at all.

Did you even play 13.1.3? Did you not have the problem of wingers just walking past full backs and centre backs allowing pretty much every cross past them so the striker has a tap in? Plus the OG's of course. This patch isn't perfect but 13.1.3 was much more unplayable and this patch.

[Mons]

Oh, btw... love the comment from Mons!

Ta

[Mensell76]

13.2.1 was a hotfix to adjust two glaring errors, it improved them but hasn't quite done enough and appears to have had a knock on in a couple of other areas.

I find it a trifle of an improvement overall, but the areas it addressed didn't affect me much anyway because of the level I play at, i.e. my players aren't good enough to be much affected :o

Okay fair enough. So I understand correctly that you find 13.2 (.1) an improvement over 13.1.3? Just trying to understand where you stand. I absolutely have no problem with anyone who finds 13.2 an improvement over 13.1.3. But much of this thread is about the total ME process, tactics or comparisons to FM2012 instead of how can we improve the current ME.

IMO the ME would be much improved if 13.1.3 was embraced again as the starting point for enhancements/tweaks again, hence my reference to 13.1.3 whilst this is a 13.2.1 feedback thread. I strongly believe SI is so much closer to getting the best possible result with the FM2013 ME by taking 13.1.3 as their starting point again, because of the fact that driblling in 13.1.3 was very accurate, then if SI start retweaking 13.2.1 (which still holds the dribbling virus). But hopefully I am completely wrong.

It is obvious that the almost perfect ME lies somewhere between 13.1.3 and 13.2.1 and to end on a positive note, that thought in itself is reassuring. And I hope that the most angry people around here realise that, the ME is not broken or very poor. The ME just needs some love and balancing. Having said that, I also feel the disappointment of my career games being heavily influenced by the changes between ME's. I have stopped playing my career game awaiting a new ME and might probably start one of the challenges in the meantime. If I would look through SI's eyes, this in itself is not a reassuring thought: long time loyal customers who stop playing the game for a while or worse quit because of the huge differences between updates.

I value the moderators for taking the first blows and trying to take of the heat for SI on several occassions. However I am hoping SI to take part in this thread again. Just as we skim through the raves and rantings, so can they. The game has taken a hit and I would value an official insight by SI a lot. SI is known for its honesty and transparency, so there would be no harm in explaining where the game stands and even trying to take away much of the frustration some of us are experiencing in playing FM2013.