Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

[superposh]

Thanks Paul for the update.

Can't say I'm happy to hear that a hotfix might take a few weeks and isn't even a certainty. I love this game, it's the only one I play. But right now I'm being forced to make illogical decisions in order to break the current repetitive spell in the ME and I'm really not enjoying the game for the first time in years.

I know it's been said a zillion times, but giving us the option to revert to an older ME, if only as temporary solution until the next hotfix or even patch would mean a great deal. A) plenty of us here would enjoy the game again and B) it would give you guys more time to work on a proper patch. I know it's a long shot, but please consider this as a temporary solution.

Totally agree. I'm still playing but this is the first time in 20 years of playing Football Manager that I have become so disillusioned with the game. Football Manager is also the only game I play. Hearing I might have to wait "a few weeks" for a possible fix for the current problems in the ME is disappointing to say the least. Two months after release, after all the beta testing and patches I expect more. By new year I expect to be balls deep into a decent game and enjoying myself. Not still getting stressed out with laughable errors in the ME. I actually don't think the current ME is as bad as some people on here would have you believe but it's definitely a disappointment.

[Os]

Totally agree. I'm still playing but this is the first time in 20 years of playing Football Manager that I have become so disillusioned with the game. Football Manager is also the only game I play. Hearing I might have to wait "a few weeks" for a possible fix for the current problems in the ME is disappointing to say the least. Two months after release, after all the beta testing and patches I expect more. By new year I expect to be balls deep into a decent game and enjoying myself. Not still getting stressed out with laughable errors in the ME. I actually don't think the current ME is as bad as some people on here would have you believe but it's definitely a disappointment.

Well PaulC has held his hands up and has shown he is aware of the current issues and also given a rough timescale of an update without applying pressure into the situation. For that he has my respect and support.

Lets get behind the game and post as much as we can into the bugs forum to help PaulC and co to make the next update a success.

[haunted1234]

can we get a 10% discount for FM14 for what we are going trough?

[edgar555]

Got to admire PaulC coming out and being as honest as he is. So the hotfix might not come quickly, if at all but at least the guys held his hands up and admitted what the issues are - and by doing so making a great big hole in the arguments made my the 'defenders' who have tried to convince us all, the problems are in our heads.

I for one have never doubted SI's passion for their game and 13.1.3 was so close to good, that I'm sure that by 13.3 (or sooner fingers crossed) we'll have a really great ME.

[Guest sciegu]

@Hunter T

1-Go back and watch a game in FM2012. Look at the ball and then we talk again! It's so slow... so unreal... that i must been blind to think that it was ok!

2-I dont see this in my games! In my current save, and after 50 games only once i conceded a goal because of a loose possession in the defence

3&4-Not seeing this in my game! i dont want to say "its your tactics"..... but... perhaps it's your tactic!

5-True! I also think there is a issue with wingers (and wingbacks) in any formation, because they tend to much to cut inside ignoring the hug the touchline instruction. Something that i hope will be fix in the next patch.

6-Not seeing this in my game. My team defend pretty well, or at least they defend like i thought they would when i built the tactic.

I'm not saying that this ME is perfect... far from it... but it puzzles me when all of the sudden everybody forgot about the issues with the ME from 2012. Did you forget the corner bug where your Central Defender could score 50 goals/season? Did you forget your stand alone poacher who could score +100 goals/season?

Or do you think that when your striker score for fun in FM2012, that happen because you were a tactical genius? The ME from 2012 had flaws that could turn the game into something completly unreal. The currently ME also have flaws but it's a huge step foward to a real representation of a football game.

But hey... it's my opinion! I respect yours opinion very much... but i have a different one!

Well I didn't use corner bug and lone poacher I avoided them and in my opinion ME was much better. I mean when i saw too many long shots i knew that was my tactics and i could turn things around. Nowyou will never know is it beacuse your tactics nor just ME flaw and so on.

3&4-Not seeing this in my game! i dont want to say "its your tactics"..... but... perhaps it's your tactic!

Well maybe you play just possession based football and you don't need through balls or else you're winning matches and that's all what you care about.

Tell me it's my tactics (this is just one made few seconds ago)

ImageShack.us"]ImageShack.us[/url]

Propably you won't believe in that but Doyle didn't played through ball instead he run with ball little more(not to mention they are set on rarely) and passed the ball to "11"

[ReggaeBwoy]

New hot fix it looks like then. 2 weeks is a long wait though. Guess I have to remain patient

[OxfordUnitedFC]

To be fair its pretty much been him, everyone else has admitted there are issues, they just havent been as game destroying as sometimes described.

Exactly, there are obviously plenty of issues with this game but it is not unplayable and needs constructive feedback on here to improve rather than people just having a go.

I am hoping the fullbacks get a good look at as they spend a lot of time around the oppositions area which leads to me being caught out at the back. Also the defenders dont seem to mark well enough and seem more inclined to revert to their standard position on the pitch instead of spotting danger and trying to cut it out.

Also despite having a lot of shots i am struggling to get my strikers to score regularly, i tend to get more goals from central midfielders or wingers. Even my full backs seem to score more lately as they get forward so much. My players also still seem too happy to knock the ball around on the half way line when im a goal down with seconds/minutes to go despite being set to the relevant all out attack/direct passing etc instructions.

I think the goalkeepers shot stopping has been improved but i have had them pass it short to a defender in my own box who is surrounded by opposition players still retreating from the previous attack several times.

[Keyzer Soze]

Tell me it's my tactics (this is just one made few seconds ago)

Propably you won't believe in that but Doyle didn't played through ball instead he run with ball little more(not to mention they are set on rarely) and passed the ball to "11"

I dont know if is your tactic, it could be. It could also be a bug in the ME, or a simple case of bad decision from your player.

I respect your opinion, and if you have issues with the game, you have every right to complain.

But, in my game, with my tactic, with my team, and with this ME i only have 2 issues (that i had already talked about): long shots and the wingers stuff.

[Guest sciegu]

I dont know if is your tactic, it could be. It could also be a bug in the ME, or a simple case of bad decision from your player.

Doyles in this particular situation have just two options - 1. Run with ball (set on rarely) 2. Play through ball (set on often). If you can, please explain what in can do more to force him to pass ball. I could consider that in this situation he can choose to run with a ball when his decisions are minus 10

[ajw10]

[video=youtube;-WUrBeK3CA4]

It's getting increasingly harder for me to like this game.

[Azmodai]

I'm sorry SI but something is wrong. And please pay heed to what I am saying because this is really really annoying not just me but our whole clan.

I have played this game since 1995 now, and am very very familiar and good at this game, and i would like to tell anyone who's going to feed me the "its your tactics mate" crap to shut up. So many people are complaining, and they are complaining for a reason... the game is not fun. The ME is flawed. Yes you can tweak it down to every small detail and super micromanage every slide every 2 minutes of the game but that is simply not fun. We're not asking for the game to be easy either, but when I have sunk a good 639 minutes into this iteration of the game and am not having any fun with it, we have a problem.

there are 9 of us in the multiplayer clan and this is perhaps the OLDEST clan on here, we've been playing this game as a group for the last 10 years now and this year nobody is having any fun with it.

There are plenty of posts describing all the little details and please look into all of them. The ME is NOT an improvement, and you get the same small stupid bugs with everybody... throw ins being thrown directly to the opposition, the keeper (even if its a premiership level keeper) running to the corner flag to clear a ball when there's no pressure, only to kick it directly to the opposition forward who volleys it in (this has happened to everyone i know who plays this game, several times), stupid frustrating incidents where the opposition will run past 5 of your players in the penalty box without any worries, the list just goes on and on.

we are on of the oldest clans in the game, playing multi player fm for the past 10 or so years and noone is enjoying the game at all, and we're all hardcore veterans. It's the first time we've been so frustrated with the game so please look into these issues. The ME is not better than last years, maybe it simulates things better but it is not fun. It is a cancer inducing, box of frustration.

Oh go on, tell me its my tactics and i need to read the tactics forum and ask for help there.

[Arisilan]

Can't really complain about the current ME, except well known long shot problem. At first my team played like monkeys (again..). Midfield seemed to lose any passing creativity they previously had, poacher just wandered around the field like headless chicken and players tried constantly to score from long range.

After few tweaks in tactics I managed to restore my team play. Midfield seems lively again and does good job with through balls, poacher is back in game and players take less long shots (they still try them and kick them awfully wide.) My defence is still solid, never had problem with that. Got destroyed by Coventry 3:0 in cup game, but in league my Alfreton team onwz completely

So imo game is still pretty much playable. Looked awful at first, but after some thinking and changes things are back to normal

[scott MUFC]

i'm i the only one with a functioning as intended tactic in this ME or something?

[DrIgz]

i'm i the only one with a functioning as intended tactic in this ME or something?

Probably Does your tactic intend to have a reasonable amount of through balls? If it does, PLEASE tell me how you get player to play them...

[Midnight Rob]

Quick update as I'm recharging the batteries over the holiday period:

- 13.1.3 was good in some respects but had about 8-10 too few shots per match. That bugged me if you will excuse the pun.

- 13.2 tried to address that by improving attacking AI as a priority. Unfortunately I messed up a change related to defending against dribblers and it sneaked into the release. 13.2.1 addressed that somewhat as well as unrealistic multiple closing down.

- 13.2.1 unfortunately had the knock on of increasing long shots especially at the top end. If possible I'll work on a hotfix for that in the next couple of weeks depending on if it looks like causes any more unwanted knock ons.

At the end of the day I made the call to release this ME in FM2013. We as a match team have sat and watched it side by side with FM2012's and we still absolutely believe its a step forward even allowing for the rough edges. I knew it would be a difficult release but I also underestimated the effects of some of our changes under the bonnet. As the main ME coder that's my responsibility no arguments.

Moving forward I think we can improve things a fair bit more for 13.3 etc but I also want to start work on the FM2014 ME in good time to apply the polish that will truly see it show its full potential.

I'd also like to thank Kriss for going beyond the call of duty with his defence of SI, the ME and myself. He knows how much we at SI care about our work and we'll pull out all the stops to get this as right as you and we all want it to be.

I hope all are enjoying the holiday period. Happy Chritmas and New Year.

Nice post. Thank you. Happy N.Y.

[Robsy1990]

I'm sorry SI but something is wrong. And please pay heed to what I am saying because this is really really annoying not just me but our whole clan.

I have played this game since 1995 now, and am very very familiar and good at this game, and i would like to tell anyone who's going to feed me the "its your tactics mate" crap to shut up. So many people are complaining, and they are complaining for a reason... the game is not fun. The ME is flawed. Yes you can tweak it down to every small detail and super micromanage every slide every 2 minutes of the game but that is simply not fun. We're not asking for the game to be easy either, but when I have sunk a good 639 minutes into this iteration of the game and am not having any fun with it, we have a problem.

there are 9 of us in the multiplayer clan and this is perhaps the OLDEST clan on here, we've been playing this game as a group for the last 10 years now and this year nobody is having any fun with it.

There are plenty of posts describing all the little details and please look into all of them. The ME is NOT an improvement, and you get the same small stupid bugs with everybody... throw ins being thrown directly to the opposition, the keeper (even if its a premiership level keeper) running to the corner flag to clear a ball when there's no pressure, only to kick it directly to the opposition forward who volleys it in (this has happened to everyone i know who plays this game, several times), stupid frustrating incidents where the opposition will run past 5 of your players in the penalty box without any worries, the list just goes on and on.

we are on of the oldest clans in the game, playing multi player fm for the past 10 or so years and noone is enjoying the game at all, and we're all hardcore veterans. It's the first time we've been so frustrated with the game so please look into these issues. The ME is not better than last years, maybe it simulates things better but it is not fun. It is a cancer inducing, box of frustration.

Oh go on, tell me its my tactics and i need to read the tactics forum and ask for help there.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but that last statement is a bit far...

[Tempest1967]

ME defects aside, I watch the game in 2D Classic mode and, it's so annoying to watch the ball and the players 'slide' around like they're on ice. Through balls rarely happen, and when they do, the ball, or should that be puck, simply skates its way to the goalie or out of play. For me, the game is simply not enjoyable this year. I'm glad I've got a great 8 season save of FM12, so it's back to that for the time being. I was wondering if anyone else felt the same about the sliding around of the players and ball?

[MAGiCK_FOOTBALL]

The biggest frustration for me is the serious lack of through balls, which I'm guessing comes about due to poor decision making from the players. At the moment, I'm just pushing everything down the wings and getting my wide players - wingers and FBs - to cross to the far post. The MCs have been put on low creative freedom to nullify their long shots, and basically just act as robots there to recycle possession to the wingers, who put in a cross to the far post/make a super dribble to the near post and get an assists/goal. But I feel so....dirty

It's frustrating because I can see how beautiful this ME can be, but it all breaks down when it comes to the final ball to the advancing player.

I feel I've been sent back to the early days of 19th century football, where the tactic is to run with the ball and hoof it to a central area in the hope of a goal. Perhaps the 2-3-5 is the new formation for FM 13.2.1!

[Azmodai]

its artistic exaggeration, but its still annoying.

[themadsheep2001]

The biggest frustration for me is the serious lack of through balls, which I'm guessing comes about due to poor decision making from the players. At the moment, I'm just pushing everything down the wings and getting my wide players - wingers and FBs - to cross to the far post. The MCs have been put on low creative freedom to nullify their long shots, and basically just act as robots there to recycle possession to the wingers, who put in a cross to the far post/make a super dribble to the near post and get an assists/goal. But I feel so....dirty

It's frustrating because I can see how beautiful this ME can be, but it all breaks down when it comes to the final ball to the advancing player.

I feel I've been sent back to the early days of 19th century football, where the tactic is to run with the ball and hoof it to a central area in the hope of a goal. Perhaps the 2-3-5 is the new formation for FM 13.2.1!

Through balls are lacking, but they are not that much higher in real life either, room for improvement, but need to be careful to not over do it.

[scott MUFC]

and no my tactic doesn't it requires crosses, but i have scored from through balls a few times.

not touching my bury save as that DOES require through balls

[Indiana Jones]

right, im 39yrs old and ive played CM/FM since the start. i regularly play network games against mates and despite being married with kids and holding down a fulltime job, i have racked up over 900 hours on FM2011 and over 900 hours on FM2O12. disgusting but true.

im a season ticket holder at bradford city and have been for years and i regularly watch football on TV. im also a subscriber to '442' magazine and 'world soccer' magazine which i read avidly.

in short, i would say im an expert when it comes to everything FM and football related. tactics and players.

but this versions ME is in my humble opinon awful. its nearly as bad as FM2009s. its definately NOT anything to do with tactics as ive just spent 4 hours testing my bayer leverkusen team at home againts mainz with numerous combinations and slider movements and virtually everytime they are proving with their (mainz's) very narrow 4-1-2-1-2 they are better. the best i can muster is a draw to their far superior shots on goal.

the the best leverkusen team i fielded was -

leno

scwaab albiol wollschied aogo

grosskreutz bender augusto schurrle

kweuke gameiro

(this was during september 2012 game time and after i had given each team in our network game £20m to spend and a lot of wheeling and dealing, and winning my last game!)

that was 442. i have tried 4231, diamond, sliders low, sliders high, etc. all dont work. aparantly the game figures that mainz facing me away is like bradford city facing barce. it didnt matter how i prepared in the week up to the match or what i said or tactics i used, i still got beat and the best i could muster was a score draw. ive tried kiessling, sidnei sam, even royston drenthe and sebastian blanco who i signed on frees.

i could understand if it was a top club with top players, but, with no disrespect, mainz? at home? with the players i have signed? after using every tactic??? after 4hrs?????? I HAVE NEVER KNOW A MORE WORSE VERSION!!!! plus i had a week to prepare.

i will also hasten to add the nightmare i had as managing real madrid in a network game recently where i was lucky to scrape third after RONALDO decided to shoot from range at every opportunity and hoof it into the corner of each stand! it was simply ridiculous to be honest.

its nothing to do with tactics, its a very poor MATCH ENGINE. simple as.

this is not a slag off at the makers. i LOVE the game. its just telling it straight from a very very experienced FM player and a very very experienced football fan. it has totally spoiled my enjoyment recently and im pulling my hair out!

[Ackter]

No offence, but losing to a team, especially frequently like that, is 100% a tactical match approach issue. There's no bug that you can't beat a team.

[Bluemagic21]

I agree with you 100% Keyzer. People seem to forget how long it took to get the match engine right in 2012, and even so there were still many flaws. I will take the current match engine over that one any day! Pretty soon SI will find that balance that we all crave. The game in its current state is nowhere near unplayable. I just wish some people would stop throwing fits like children, its not like they forced you to buy the game and then quit working. They have been diligent enough to keep working on it and giving us constant updates.

[scott MUFC]

i love FM12 engine, sweet crisp fast attacking football. without your defence falling to bits as soon as you hit very fluid

[Bluemagic21]

It was a good engine but it still had its faults. It also took a lot of work getting the engine right. It didn't come out sweet and crisp. I just think some people need to calm down and realize the 13 match engine is a work in progress. I am confident in the end the match engine will be superb.

[Indiana Jones]

No offence, but losing to a team, especially frequently like that, is 100% a tactical match approach issue. There's no bug that you can't beat a team.

no offence mate, but have you read ALL of my post or are you choosing to see things that thinks gains you browny points as a mod? The game is flawed. i tried EVERY tactic going with a massively superior team.

EVEN THE GAMES MATCH ENGINE MAKER HAS ADMITTED HIS MISTAKES!!! just scroll back a few posts mate...

im not going to get into an argument here buddy but if you are having a good FM experience here then you are mistaken and in the minority. stop defending the game when the ME makers have admitted they have things to sort out and it certainly IS NOT PERFECT!

again, i will point out that i played mainz at home as leverkusen over 100 times testing many different tactics after signing some fantastic players (gameiro, albiol, kweuke, aogo, grosskreutz, drenthe, etc) and i think i only once narrowly won. i was testing the ME with my really good team against a mediocre team over 4 hours.

yeah mate, there is no bug. its just a shyte match engine. nobody said anything about bugs.

[themadsheep2001]

no offence mate, but have you read ALL of my post or are you choosing to see things that thinks gains you browny points as a mod? The game is flawed. i tried EVERY tactic going with a massively superior team.

EVEN THE GAMES MATCH ENGINE MAKER HAS ADMITTED HIS MISTAKES!!! just scroll back a few posts mate...

im not going to get into an argument here buddy but if you are having a good FM experience here then you are mistaken and in the minority. stop defending the game when the ME makers have admitted they have things to sort out and it certainly IS NOT PERFECT!

again, i will point out that i played mainz at home as leverkusen over 100 times testing many different tactics after signing some fantastic players (gameiro, albiol, kweuke, aogo, grosskreutz, drenthe, etc) and i think i only once narrowly won. i was testing the ME with my really good team against a mediocre team over 4 hours.

yeah mate, there is no bug. its just a shyte match engine. nobody said anything about bugs.

You know he never called it perfect right? And ME issues aside, of which there are plenty, if you are constantly losing like that, then you are definitely doing something wrong. If you really were as good as you say you were, then you wouldnt be getting your arsed handed to you over and over.

[themadsheep2001]

It was a good engine but it still had its faults. It also took a lot of work getting the engine right. It didn't come out sweet and crisp. I just think some people need to calm down and realize the 13 match engine is a work in progress. I am confident in the end the match engine will be superb.

I fired up FM12 a few days ago. will never go back to that again, it just doesn't compare at all.

[Bluemagic21]

When has fm ever been perfect??? I believe every release has needed work. So what did he really admit? Im glad that 9 pages of feedback lets you decide who the minority are.

[churros]

Just been wondering. I got FM12 in Feb'12 so that was like 4 months after its release, but got FM13 just last week. Was FM12 this bad in the first 1 or 2 months of release? Because I don't find this standard playable or acceptable.

Or is this mainly due to the completely new ME for this year? Did FM12 use FM11's ME? It looks like that when I look it up on Youtube.

[Ackter]

no offence mate, but have you read ALL of my post or are you choosing to see things that thinks gains you browny points as a mod? The game is flawed. i tried EVERY tactic going with a massively superior team.

EVEN THE GAMES MATCH ENGINE MAKER HAS ADMITTED HIS MISTAKES!!! just scroll back a few posts mate...

im not going to get into an argument here buddy but if you are having a good FM experience here then you are mistaken and in the minority. stop defending the game when the ME makers have admitted they have things to sort out and it certainly IS NOT PERFECT!

again, i will point out that i played mainz at home as leverkusen over 100 times testing many different tactics after signing some fantastic players (gameiro, albiol, kweuke, aogo, grosskreutz, drenthe, etc) and i think i only once narrowly won. i was testing the ME with my really good team against a mediocre team over 4 hours.

yeah mate, there is no bug. its just a shyte match engine. nobody said anything about bugs.

Yes, I read your post. None of the issues in the match engine will cause you to continually lose a replayed match.

I'd suggest you just don't actually know what you're doing tactically.

Upload your save game somewhere I can access it and I'll get you a winning PKM as proof.

[churros]

LOL. That concludes and confirms how dictated the forum is. Deleting posts that refute against ME/staff opinion? Good job on the damage control guys. Hope my $30+ isn't a very worthy asset.

[Ackter]

I deleted your posts because they were nonsense.

If you decide to post something with actual substance it will remain.

[churros]

Also, I've no idea why you deleted the other post asking for comparisons to this and the FM11 and 12 match engines. If you removed the one that refuted you, whatevs mate. I can tolerate a bit of dictatorship but I was asking an honest question about if FM13 uses a completely revamped engine? What's the matter here?

[Ackter]

Actually that one was accidentally deleted, I'll restore it.

[churros]

I'll appreciate that you answer it considering you've been here since 04 now all those recent posts have pushed it back to "old news".

[Ackter]

I holidayed through nearly every match in FM11 and FM12 so I'm not the best person to answer it.

[Veg1ta]

the match engine is really bad on key moments but since i switched it to extended highlights its more tolerable, currently top of seria a and in the quarters of the c.l, so the match engine isnt as bad as i first thought it to be.

[urizen7]

Not sure am i the only one but is anybody else getting an obscene amount of injuries during match? I had rooney out for 3mths, played a couple of games and got injured again out for 4wks.

[Veg1ta]

injuries have defo being raised on this new patch, is it a good thing? guess that opinion based but i find having a slightly bigger squad than usual helps alot.

[Ackter]

Injuries have not been touched for several patches/hotfixes now.

[Hunter T]

. Midfield seemed to lose any passing creativity they previously had, poacher just wandered around the field like headless chicken and players tried constantly to score from long range.

After few tweaks in tactics I managed to restore my team play. Midfield seems lively again and does good job with through balls, poacher is back in game and players take less long shots (they still try them and kick them awfully wide.)

Interesting.

Could you please expain how or could you upload your tactic in the tactics forum?

[canaryboxhead]

Appreciate the effort with this patch, but actually seems a downgrade on the last patch but quite a long way.

All the things this patch was supposed to stop have now appeared for me! A huge amount of shots each game (always over 20 for at least one team), Scorers against me are always full backs (regardless of tatics) who seems capable of dribbling and finding space much better than strikers and also really weird defending. When I say weird I mean like defenders charging up to close down midfielders (even if they are on v defensive mentality, man mark a striker) and also full backs standing well out of position all the time, no matter if I play rigid, very defensive, no counter attacks.

I was actually a big fan of the last update, it sorted out a lot of issues and had basically solved the game for me, and now I have these weird problems coming in. Hope it can be sorted soon. Thanks!

[churros]

So since my last post here I went and played just ONE match on extended highlights, and just on extended highlights I've found more than 5 incidents that warrants a tactical facepalm. Imagine the dozens I probably can find if I watched the full match, now that the game runs in real time (1 game second = 1 real second, whereas it was 1.5 game second = 1 real second in FM12)

Here are 3 examples. I would upload more but even the upload feature is problematic and extremely cumbersome. Just read the video descriptions. Also want to suggest that videos can be uploaded on variable match speeds because I doubt a lot of you would spot how bad the AI behaviour is in one viewing, considering most people here are "commentary only".

Part 1: Read description

[video=youtube;MQ1dJAvJ_7U]

Part 2: Read description

[video=youtube;YGjwRQT-EPw]

Part 3: Read description

[video=youtube;xc0cXDfst4A]

[DrIgz]

I get the first video. That happens too often.

I don't understand what was wrong in the second.

In the third, the keeper was likely to be "blindsighted" (not sure if that is actually a word) by the striker running across. I know it seems dumb that he fumbles and spills the ball, but being a keeper, I can tell you, when someone is running across like that, very difficult to hold on to a ball.

Anyway, other than the hopeful long ball, I saw little wrong unless you'd like to elaborate as I may have completely missed some obvious bug.

[Svenc]

riive just spent 4 hours testing my bayer leverkusen team at home againts mainz with numerous combinations and slider movements

[...]

that was 442. i have tried 4231, diamond, sliders low, sliders high, etc. all dont work.

In short: Out of frustration you applied totally random micromanagement of the sliders in wanton attempts to get a result (with a result meaning a scoreline going in your side's favor). Assuming the four hour figure to be true, and that within those four hours for some rather odd reason not *one* match finished with Leverkusen winning the thing: Out of interest, have you at least tried to create a logical tactics using the TC and/or modifying that during the match to counter specific tactical issues you might be facing via shouts also?

[Bigshow1]

I had 2 cracking saves going with Fleetwood and Toledo in Spain before the last couple of patches. I'm gonna leave them for now through fear of being sacked. The tackling, passing and goal-keeping are all awful and the matches are that bad to watch that I no longer feel 'in control' of proceedings. Everything just feels so random.

After reading Pauls comments I can't help but feel that it will never have chance to have all the bugs ironed out and instead it will just be used as a stepping stone to FM14. I remember FM08 having no closing down at all and it was never fixed so I played FM07 for 2 years.

[Graham206]

I think I'll give the game a break until the next update: a shame because (unlike many people who were saying they hated it) I was really enjoying 13.1.3. It wasn't perfect, shots were too low but a little too low was way better than much too high as now. But I can't fault the effort that S.I. has put in, bringing an update out on Christmas Eve. Unfortunately sometimes talented people can work very hard on a project and it doesn't turn out as intended. Still, a couple of weeks off FM is hardly Windows Vista, is it?

[MacZidane]

again, i will point out that i played mainz at home as leverkusen over 100 times testing many different tactics after signing some fantastic players (gameiro, albiol, kweuke, aogo, grosskreutz, drenthe, etc) and i think i only once narrowly won. i was testing the ME with my really good team against a mediocre team over 4 hours.

Why on earth would you replay the same game 100 times? That's just about the saddest thing I've ever read on here. And it's up against some pretty stiff opposition.