ham_aka_stam Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Far too much chat about RVP going around at the moment. Ain't gonna happen. We're either smokescreening or it's paper BS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Far too much chat about RVP going around at the moment. Ain't gonna happen. We're either smokescreening or it's paper BS. Wonderful player but will cost a bucket, is 29 and we have 3 strikers who NEED game time. Also, if you pair his injury record with our physio team that still use leeches and Asbestos injections for groin injuries......:o So agree with Ham, aint gonna happen but i expect Craig to be all over this like a rash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham_aka_stam Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Would much rather we put our efforts into convincing Berba to stay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Would much rather we put our efforts into convincing Berba to stay. Rooney is a nailed on starter, Welbeck is a big part of our future and Chicha is very useful. Berbatov as 4th choice does not work, the arrival of Kagawa also means even less game time to rotate between 4 strikers. He will play even less football than last season while chowing on that monster wage of his before leaving on a free in the summer. We need to sell him now, £2m transfer fee and his wages off the books must equate to at least a total of £5m. Even better if we get the £5m asking price though.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham_aka_stam Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I don't think you understand. This is Berbatov. Unless getting rid of him is necessary for us to bring in a CM, I couldn't care less about his wages I love him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheps. Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So apparently Vilas-Boas has come out and said that 3 different clubs are in for Modric but Spurs won't sell unless the £35m asking price is met. At that price, I don't think we are one of those clubs, which is fine by me as I think there are better options out there for less than that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Starting to feel more and more Modric at that price would flop ala Berba, just too much build up. Spend it one someone younger and a lower profile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Looks like the IPO kicks off in a few weeks. Did the Glazers actually embark on a roadshow to market this (as i did not hear anything) or are they relying on brand power? Estimates say we are looking at around the $300m mark, with decent interest and a little overtrade, the $500m mark (previously touted) could happen. Reuters say that we will be benchmarked against media companies (makes sense) and consumer goods companies (hmmmm...) to justify the valuation. The latest Forbes report could not have come at a better time eh........ http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/07/19/uk-manchester-united-ipo-idUKBRE86H1H820120719 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 It really couldn't have. It almost seems like it wasn't a coincidence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangaea Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Think Arsenal would greatly prefer to sell him abroad. Being a feeder club for City won't please them and especially their fans one bit. We're not after him, which I'm perfectly happy with. We have enough strikers as it is. That's not where our problem lies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Just because. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The Forbes thing is definitely a major help for the Glazers when it comes to the IPO. I'd say it's that, the name (Most sports fans who don't know diddly about soccer know "Manchester") and the big one in regards to split shares are the three reasons why they're in the NYSE and why it'll work. There is no way they could have done the IPO over here, fans and investors would have eventually swiped the club right out from underneath them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Thank you dion. You've made my day Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrD Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'll join in then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Starting to feel more and more Modric at that price would flop ala Berba, just too much build up. Spend it one someone younger and a lower profile. Although surely if Modric arrived he would be key player of the first team hence given the time/support to make it. Not saying Berbatov didn't have the time/support to make it (not that he has flopped, but you know what I mean....), but was different to him arriving with Tevez/Rooney/Ronaldo already at OT. edit- although I realise you just said ala Berba, not making a direct comparison as such! Anyway, I think he'd be fantastic for you guys, not that I want him going anywhere of course! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Although surely if Modric arrived he would be key player of the first team hence given the time/support to make it. Not saying Berbatov didn't have the time/support to make it (not that he has flopped, but you know what I mean....), but was different to him arriving with Tevez/Rooney/Ronaldo already at OT.edit- although I realise you just said ala Berba, not making a direct comparison as such! Anyway, I think he'd be fantastic for you guys, not that I want him going anywhere of course! That's not a bad point. The Berbatov buy came across as something different to use if the starting tactics weren't working. The Veron deal (which is more comparable to Modric) was us totally having to shift our tactics but now we're ready for someone like Modric to step in and do his best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 has Berbatov REALLY flopped? he won the golden boot, he just wasn't played. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Who said he flopped? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I must say when you guys signed him I thought you had the most complete squad, all bases covered. Of course at the time didn't expect Hargreaves to be finished off, if someone could post that squad with ages (or any other stats), it really was great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett.spurs Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Who said he flopped? dionthegenius. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Ah yes, 3rd time I've read dions post and I keep missing things...I'm tired! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSB Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'm not sure we've got the tactical expertise in the coaching side to pull the 3-5-2 off. While I can see why the squad looks well suited to it, they've been drilled to play a back 4 for virtually their entire careers. Disrupting that might be worth it in the long run (or maybe someone like Carlos Queiroz could make it work in the short term) but I can see it beging a bit farcical in the short term. I'm not sure I'd trust Phelan or Ferguson to oversee that kind of reorganisation, Phelan because he's Phelan and Ferguson because he's always better at stealing what's already been done and improving on it rather than being a genuine innovator. Investing in defensive midfield and fullback may be a safer way of addressing the problem rather than a full tactical overhaul, the latter would certainly be cheaper of course. Can see where you're coming from - this is more a musing than something I'm expecting to see. Though I would want us to phase it in gradually, against weaker sides initially. That said, Ferguson did briefly run with 3-5-2 when it was all the rage in the mid-late 90s, and Rio started his career as a libero, while Evans, Smalling and Jones are all early enough in their careers to be moulded, particularly as all have spent time at fullback. On Ferguson, I'd see this more as 'stealing' from the Barca model than pure innovation, as when he briefly experimented with 3-5-2 and a false nine. Definitely agree that we should just buy a couple of defensive mids (one holder, one spoiler) and a left back rather than go down this route - just doesn't seem likely, and for me this would be preferable than starting a mediocre reserve winger out of position while a top class centre half sits on the bench. On a side note with Hernandez. I can actually see him not lasting at United (more than five years) if he doesn't start to improve his overall game. We're almost getting back to the van Nistelrooy situation where we've got a good/great goalscorer who "does little else". Which is fine in a system that can handle it but not so good for the fluidity of attack SAF keeps going back to. I'd say we've had four real poachers over the last twenty years in Cole, van Nist, Forlan and Hernandez. Cole developed his all round game, we didn't win the league with RvN, Forlan needed to go elsewhere to improve and now Hernandez. I can certainly see Welbeck slowly pushing him down the pecking order in the next few seasons if Welbeck continues his current development. I think that at worst Hernandez will be retained in the 'super-sub' role - he's already scored more goals from the bench for us than anyone bar Ole, and he seems like he'd be happy enough to play the bit part role for the time being at least. Mentioned before that (three at the back pipe dreams aside) I'd like to see our nominal first choice attack consisting of the likes of Young, Nani, Rooney and Welbeck in a fluid front four with Valencia and Hernandez comprising a more direct plan B to get around more stubborn defences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 That's not a bad point. The Berbatov buy came across as something different to use if the starting tactics weren't working. The Veron deal (which is more comparable to Modric) was us totally having to shift our tactics but now we're ready for someone like Modric to step in and do his best. While i would jump at the chance to get Modric, if we had £35million to burn i would use it elsewhere tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Who said he flopped? Flopped by a £30m two year transfer saga standard, not trying to say he was (or is) a bad player for us, just never became that crucial missing link he was supposed to be, that's our fault as much as his. dionthegenius. Ooooh you clever b*stard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I think that at worst Hernandez will be retained in the 'super-sub' role - he's already scored more goals from the bench for us than anyone bar Ole, and he seems like he'd be happy enough to play the bit part role for the time being at least. Mentioned before that (three at the back pipe dreams aside) I'd like to see our nominal first choice attack consisting of the likes of Young, Nani, Rooney and Welbeck in a fluid front four with Valencia and Hernandez comprising a more direct plan B to get around more stubborn defences. I would definitely be happier with this than Hernandez as a starter. Don't get me wrong, he is very talented at what he does, however I think we're a much better team when we have strikers who do more than "just" score. While i would jump at the chance to get Modric, if we had £35million to burn i would use it elsewhere tbh. I wasn't suggesting getting Modric, I was instead pointing out that the situation is the best it's going to get for him compared to how it was when we signed Berbatov and Veron. On the Berbatov/flop thing. I don't consider him a flop, I consider him a player whose skills are being used as solely a plan B but playing him causes such a shift in style for the other players that it takes a while to get everyone on the same page. By that time, he is out of the team and our first choice attack is back which makes his inconstancy even more obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 For 35m, one could possibly get Martinez. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 People will look back on Berbatovs time and his stats will say he delivered but sometimes the stats do not tell the whole story and he is very close to what most would see as a flop signing. The effort that went into getting him and the money spent contributes to most of this, but in essence it was through no fault of his and a big fault of ours that he did not work out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 For 35m, one could possibly get Martinez. ...or for 1/5th of that we could raid a lower premier league side for a strong, tall, midfield general that knows our league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 ...or for 1/5th of that we could raid a lower premier league side for a strong, tall, midfield general that knows our league. With big shaggy hair? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 7m won't even get you Fellaini's hair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 £7m to loan Fellani for 3 years? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Saint Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 People will look back on Berbatovs time and his stats will say he delivered but sometimes the stats do not tell the whole story and he is very close to what most would see as a flop signing. The effort that went into getting him and the money spent contributes to most of this, but in essence it was through no fault of his and a big fault of ours that he did not work out. When he played he was PL best scorer, how the hell is a flop if the manager decided to do a Barcelona and ignore the clear better player in the name of the "future"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 £7m to loan Fellani for 3 years? 3 days, maybe! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I won't go as far as saying that berbatov was a flop. I mean he had his good times and his poor times at the club. When he leaves I hope people try to remember the good times more than the bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I hate quoting a troll but i wrote "but in essence it was through no fault of his and a big fault of ours that he did not work out" The Saint replies with how the hell is a flop if the manager decided to do a Barcelona and ignore the clear better player in the name of the "future"? So basically saying it is the managers fault and not Berbatovs....hmmm very similar to what i wrote above eh wonderboy? Normally trolls have basic level intelligence but we seem to have lucked out and got the class dunce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggressive minor Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The_Saint is special indeed..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Didn't Berba contribute more than Hargreaves and yet Hargreaves isn't considered a flop? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Didn't Berba contribute more than Hargreaves and yet Hargreaves isn't considered a flop? Hargreaves has that freekick against Arsenal though. :o Like i said Berbs stats look good on paper (he was top scorer at one point etc), but if a manager has to drop a £30m player because his style is detrimental to the team you have to re-assess his performance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 To call him a flop is a little harsh, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_T Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 this is the first and probably last time I agree with 'the_saint'. how you people calling berba a flop can look at yourselves in the mirror I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hargreaves has that freekick against Arsenal though. :oLike i said Berbs stats look good on paper (he was top scorer at one point etc), but if a manager has to drop a £30m player because his style is detrimental to the team you have to re-assess his performance. Not at all. You question whether the manager was right in signing the player (SAF was), whether the team had/has enough finances to take such a gamble (proven excluding Glaziers we do/did) and then you question whether the manager has done enough to integrate player's style into existing structure of the play. It's this last one that I think SAF has fallen down on a number of times. He is aware that some players need a different style of play but, unless it's a favourite of his, has the habit of not allowing the player and team to gel the way it could. I go back to the Veron deal as an example. The team had four main strikers, Beckham as a wide right midfielder (not a right winger) and a central midfield of Keane and Scholes. Bringing in a deep playmaker like Veron should have been the last piece to changing the team's style of play to more a 4-2-3-1 and not the first. Right player, wrong stage of the squad's development. With the Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo attack it was all very quick and deadly but all three players aren't at their best in games which rely on slow, careful build up. Sure they might all be able to break through a stubborn defence but Berbatov was brought in as that conductor of the ball to make this breakthrough a much more regular deal. Yet you can't have part of the team playing half speed and the other 2x speed, the entire system breaks apart. So we're back to the same issue with a player who is the main piece of a puzzle being brought in before everything else is in place to support him. However unlike Veron, SAF has never looked to turn the team into a possession based attack which means that everything Berbatov has done at the club has been despite the issues which have never/will never be resolved in his favour. It's extremely comparable to the Liverpool-Carroll or Barcelona-Ibrahimovic transfers. All three big strikers who are best when a team is built around them being brought into clubs whose style and system are aimed at getting the best out of other players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 To call him a flop is a little harsh, though. this is the first and probably last time I agree with 'the_saint'. how you people calling berba a flop can look at yourselves in the mirror I don't know. Proof that people skim read and then quickly post in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Not at all. You question whether the manager was right in signing the player (SAF was), whether the team had/has enough finances to take such a gamble (proven excluding Glaziers we do/did) and then you question whether the manager has done enough to integrate player's style into existing structure of the play.It's this last one that I think SAF has fallen down on a number of times. He is aware that some players need a different style of play but, unless it's a favourite of his, has the habit of not allowing the player and team to gel the way it could. I go back to the Veron deal as an example. The team had four main strikers, Beckham as a wide right midfielder (not a right winger) and a central midfield of Keane and Scholes. Bringing in a deep playmaker like Veron should have been the last piece to changing the team's style of play to more a 4-2-3-1 and not the first. Right player, wrong stage of the squad's development. With the Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo attack it was all very quick and deadly but all three players aren't at their best in games which rely on slow, careful build up. Sure they might all be able to break through a stubborn defence but Berbatov was brought in as that conductor of the ball to make this breakthrough a much more regular deal. Yet you can't have part of the team playing half speed and the other 2x speed, the entire system breaks apart. So we're back to the same issue with a player who is the main piece of a puzzle being brought in before everything else is in place to support him. However unlike Veron, SAF has never looked to turn the team into a possession based attack which means that everything Berbatov has done at the club has been despite the issues which have never/will never be resolved in his favour. It's extremely comparable to the Liverpool-Carroll or Barcelona-Ibrahimovic transfers. All three big strikers who are best when a team is built around them being brought into clubs whose style and system are aimed at getting the best out of other players. All that "War & Peace" can be summed up in a simple quote from a few lines up....... but in essence it was through no fault of his and a big fault of ours that he did not work out. ....by "ours" i meant Manchester United or our management team are to blame for him not working out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Proof that people skim read and then quickly post in this thread. That was obviously in reference to Dion's claim that Berba flopped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_T Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 tbf that is actually what I did on this occasion I saw 'berba' and 'flop' and lost it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 That was obviously in reference to Dion's claim that Berba flopped. Which is why i say thay you skim read. Dions post goes thus.... Starting to feel more and more Modric at that price would flop ala Berba, just too much build up If you want to be pedantic, you could argue all day that Dion was calling him an outright flop. In reality i read it as Dion saying that Modric would be seen as a flop because of the price and build-up if he does not perform exceedingly well, just like Berbatov. Dion then follows it up with this bit... Flopped by a £30m two year transfer saga standard, not trying to say he was (or is) a bad player for us, just never became that crucial missing link he was supposed to be, that's our fault as much as his Anyway back to skim reading, because someone uses the word flopped in a sentence does not mean you should just pounce on that. Those words coming afterwards are there for clarity and expansion on the first word used. But hey its OTF, "Them guys said Berbatov flopped, you cats be tripping" rinse then repeat as the next skim reader arrives in the thread and says the same words. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 this is the first and probably last time I agree with 'the_saint'. how you people calling berba a flop can look at yourselves in the mirror I don't know. There is a difference between an absolute flop and a flop relative to the hype and the price. Shevchenko was both, Berbatov was merely the latter. You can read what I've said about Berbatov since he signed and I've always defended his performances from undue criticism, but I can't imagine anyone's hopes (including his own) for his time at United have been fulfilled. My abiding memory of Berbatov won't be the match winning hattrick against Liverpool or the magical turn on the line to feed in Ronaldo, it will be of him not making the bench for the Champions League final at the expense of Michael bloody Owen. The sad thing is the majority (myself included) of the people in this thread could understand why when the teams where announce, despite that being the season when he was top scorer in the league you just didn't trust him to be the guy to score the chance to win you that big game. He was great in patches during that season, but for £30m and all that hype and all that ability he had you wanted something more than that. Berbatov wasn't a bad player for us (and he's very frequently been a very good player for us, he was an order of magnitude better than Veron) but he was never that talismanic figure we all hoped and by those standards he flopped, partly because we never gave him a chance to succeed. Hargreaves isn't called a flop because for all intents and purposes he died three months in to his second season, he was definitely a waste of money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 tbf that is actually what I did on this occasion I saw 'berba' and 'flop' and lost it. I have done it loads of times in the past with Nani tbf, if only our Evertonian Red Devil would admit to doing the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icondacarver Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 There is a difference between an absolute flop and a flop relative to the hype and the price. Shevchenko was both, Berbatov was merely the latter. . As i thought, Dion was not calling him an outright flop but rather referring to it in context of the fee and hype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 On an entirely different note; Anyone thinking of buying a python to play at left back this season should think again, not even a 12ft killer snake stops Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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