FM2012 difficulty.

[Casual]

P-ppp-please make the game a bit harder SI. At least make an optional download for us who want it harder because we're bored of clicking continue and just winning all the matches.

If you take a look, there are topics like this one on most FM forums, as people (especially us who have been loyal to FM for a long time) complain about this issue. Please consider this, and don't let us down because I'm sure that no one wants to get bored with the not challenging game so fast and have to wait for the next november for something better.

[fm10]

I agree with casual

[BiggusD]

In all fairness, I took Crewe from L2 to PL in 4 seasons and qualified for Europa League (q) in the fifth season of FM11.2 with a quite mediocre tactic before 11.3 ruined it. Then I won Liga Adelante with Las Palmas first season, came 3rd in BBVA second season, 2nd in third season and 1st in fourth season on FM11.3. The best club in the world by 2016.

There are thousands of stories like this from FM2011, probably tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands considering the low percentage of FM players bothering to post here.

I am just in second season yet, so I have not noticed any AI squad building issues yet of course. But based on the threads in here regarding the AI transfer policy and general intelligence I doubt things have changed much in that department.

What has changed is the human manager's ability to keep morale and motivation high because of the improved team talks.

[grep]

What has changed is the human manager's ability to keep morale and motivation high because of the improved team talks.

SI states that those green and red reactions count little.

They didn't stated the percentage but it seems to be around 10% roughly of improvement if green or 10% less if red.

Told that I agree these talks are a nice idea but they simply add easiness to a game that is already too easy by itself.

In addition, once mastered the private chats you can use them to raise " manually " the morale is a blink of an eye, just say a player he must improve and his morale pretty much always get higher by 1 or 2 levels. A cheat I would say.

[Erimus1876]

I've done some testing of the AI club Tactical Attributes in the editor to see if I could find a way to raise the games challenge for those who find it too easy.

First of all I began a new save with Barnet (again) who are the worst team in the football league (media prediction 24th).

As the manager I did all the managerial things expected of me (or delegated them to staff), except there were no team talks issued for any game (they were completely ignored by me and my assistant). And I bought no one or loaned no one. The tactics used were the default 4-4-2 (no tweaks) for every match.

After 15 games I was comfortably in mid-table. 17 points ahead of 24th place (my predicted position). This with a team that had no new players added to it. Again far too easy but at least not as easy as my original save that saw me 5th and 24 points clear of 24th after 18 games using the same rules as above.

I wanted to see if I could improve how the AI would perform against me in matches so:

I then increased all the AI clubs Tactical Attributes for League Two teams in the editor to the following...

Attacking 15

Depth 15

Directness 20

Flamboyancy 5

Flexibility 10

Free Roles 5

Marking 20

Offside 20

Pressing 15

Sitting Back 15

Tempo 15

Playmaker 5

Width 15

... and set my teams TA's to 1 in each catergory.

I started a new save, again with Barnet, and employed the exact same method of managing as mentioned above. Again no new players added etc.

This is how the table looked after 15 games...

Exactly where Barnet should be under the circumstances described !

Anyway, I've now improved the entire English league system, plus the top leagues from Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, and Holland with better Tactical Attributes for every AI club and will start a new game hoping its not a one off. If anyone else wants to test if further the database can be found here...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NZSI3XK7

To get a true test, you will need to lower the TA's of the team you're going to manager using FMRTE, or you can try it as it stands in the database and see how you get on having TA's the same as all the other teams in your league.

[SeanNUFC]

holy **** mate! thanks for that! i'll use it when i start a new game next time. seems like what you did worked.

[Erimus1876]

holy **** mate! thanks for that! i'll use it when i start a new game next time. seems like what you did worked.

Well it was only a short test, it really needs to go across a season or two and few different saves. If it works for you, share your results here

[hatmab123]

:)Good work - maybe you should be working at SI doing the job that their testing team should have done properly in the first place!!!

P.S. - any chance of the Scottish Leagues???

[Erimus1876]

:)Good work - maybe you should be working at SI doing the job that their testing team should have done properly in the first place!!!

P.S. - any chance of the Scottish Leagues???

Its easy to do the Scottish Leagues yourself Just download the database, open your editor and click on Tactical Attributes of the teams you want to improve.

As a guide these are the values I've used for the ones I did...

If it works and I get some positive feedback from people who notice its more of a challenge, I'll put the time in updating as many AI clubs as I can (including Scotland).

[SeanNUFC]

Since i can still use fmrte in my game im going to do this at some point in my german league. I did try it briefly in fm10 but not long enough to really test it.

edit: Actually, what i did was slightly different, just noticed. Never even realized these stats existed before, could be a great improvement this! Just editing some german teams now.

[jase19]

in the 2075 save thread, barnet in the premier league though. don't hold them back!

[hatmab123]

Its easy to do the Scottish Leagues yourself Just download the database, open your editor and click on Tactical Attributes of the teams you want to improve.

As a guide these are the values I've used for the ones I did...

If it works and I get some positive feedback from people who notice its more of a challenge, I'll put the time in updating as many AI clubs as I can (including Scotland).

Thanks for the info.

[Erimus1876]

From the info I've got from a thread in the editors forum, a lot of teams in the SI database start with 0 in some or all of their tactical attributes categories. A 0 means a random number between 1 and 20 is assigned every time you start a new game. If that is true then it could explain why some people find the game too easy while others don't. For example, if you pick a team that has all 0's for its TA's its pot luck wether your team is assigned low numbers in cruicual catergories (meaning a tougher game), or high numbers (meaning an easier game). A lot of clubs already have fixed numbers inputted and are usually pretty high for the bigger clubs, so its no wonder its easy with big teams!

I hope someone from SI can confirm this as its just what I've gotten from others in the editors forum so don't know how accurate it is without further testing.

[SeanNUFC]

Yep, i've noticed Schalke and Leverkusen so far with some 0's. Meant to mean its a random number as you say, which surely doesn't help the situation!!

[Erimus1876]

Yep, i've noticed Schalke and Leverkusen so far with some 0's. Meant to mean its a random number as you say, which surely doesn't help the situation!!

If 0 = random, then clubs like that could theoretically be assigned 1's and 2's etc, making them tactically worse than lower league teams. If its not already the case, maybe top league teams should be assigned a minimum of 15-16, with the rest scaled according to their league or reputation. The problem is it doesn't give much scope for having unique playing styles from club to club.

[shirajzl]

So now everyone is creaming themselves over failing miserably in the game. :lol:

How far have we come...

[SeanNUFC]

So now everyone is creaming themselves over failing miserably in the game. :lol:

How far have we come...

keep on trolling.

[jase19]

keep on trolling.

he's trolling?

[SeanNUFC]

he's trolling?

Maybe not exactly, but completely missing the point of what's going on.

[Coentrao]

That's a very interesting find Erimus.. can't understand why would top teams have some of those attributes as random though.

[Erimus1876]

So now everyone is creaming themselves over failing miserably in the game.

How far have we come...

That test save were Barnet struggled to get off the bottom was actually the most fun I've had in FM12, even though I knew it was a test. Trying to grind out results against the AI was exactly the challenge I've been looking for since I got the game. So yes, it was bloody good fun for once!

[grep]

SI shame on you, now FM fans have to fix problems by themselves...

[Erimus1876]

That's a very interesting find Erimus.. can't understand why would top teams have some of those attributes as random though.

Lazy SI database editors would be my guess. There's loads of missing data in the SI databases, and always has been.

[shirajzl]

Maybe not exactly, but completely missing the point of what's going on.

I was just expressing surprise that all of you find finishing rock bottom with Barnet appealing. I understand reaching the top half would be too much, but what's the point of this game if you can't overachieve slightly using your tactical savvy and man management abilities? I know you were using just the basic things, but still.

If FM was 100% realistic, I'd never play it.

[jase19]

That test save were Barnet struggled to get off the bottom was actually the most fun I've had in FM12, even though I knew it was a test. Trying to grind out results against the AI was exactly the challenge I've been looking for since I got the game. So yes, it was bloody good fun for once!

just don't take it too far, barnet are due for the premiership by 2075 at least.

[Erimus1876]

SI shame on you, now FM fans have to fix problems by themselves...

Its not fixed, its just an idea with a few promising early results that could be shot down in flames if SI say the TA's don't have any major impact on the game, like morale and teamtalks for example

[SeanNUFC]

I was just expressing surprise that all of you find finishing rock bottom with Barnet appealing. I understand reaching the top half would be too much, but what's the point of this game if you can't overachieve slightly using your tactical savvy and man management abilities? I know you were using just the basic things, but still.

If FM was 100% realistic, I'd never play it.

I'm just editing things so the AI has a decent chance and so i can use as much of the game as possible. I'm not sure if it'll work but no harm in trying.

[KUBI]

SI shame on you, now FM fans have to fix problems by themselves...

They don't fix it, they just edit it.

[themadsheep2001]

Well it was only a short test, it really needs to go across a season or two and few different saves. If it works for you, share your results here

Seems promising, but would need longer than 1-2 seasons. I assume you have multiple leagues loaded up at the same time?

[grep]

Its not fixed, its just an idea with a few promising early results that could be shot down in flames if SI say the TA's don't have any major impact on the game, like morale and teamtalks for example

Yes you are right, I was just pointing at SI for the concept behind that, not precisely the results.

I am still astonished about the fact they want deliberately ignore a consistent 30% of customers, they even deny it's a 30%........ btw SI, we paid for it, we are not betatesters nor bloody social workers.

[Erimus1876]

Seems promising, but would need longer than 1-2 seasons. I assume you have multiple leagues loaded up at the same time?

No just the English leagues for that initial test since I didn't plan on playing the whole season through. Now that I've improved the rest of the English league and the top leagues in Europe i'm going to start my proper save. I'm through with testing, I'm just going to play the game now and see what happens, if it works it works, if it doesn't there's always FM11 to fall back on

[Kriss]

Yes you are right, I was just pointing at SI for the concept behind that, not precisely the results.

I am still astonished about the fact they want deliberately ignore a consistent 30% of customers, they even deny it's a 30%........ btw SI, we paid for it, we are not betatesters nor bloody social workers.

Are you just here to snipe? for your information they aren't ignoring it, these claims are actually the subject of much discussion but unlike you they won't make sweeping pronouncements without factual proof, and incredible as it may seem they have vastly more knowledge than you about how the game is supposed to work.

Some of the thoughts and research here are interesting and thought provoking but the jury is still out.

[themadsheep2001]

Yes you are right, I was just pointing at SI for the concept behind that, not precisely the results.

I am still astonished about the fact they want deliberately ignore a consistent 30% of customers, they even deny it's a 30%........ btw SI, we paid for it, we are not betatesters nor bloody social workers.

No offence, but its not 30% of customers. Whatever points you may have, valid or not ( and for the record i think the AI has always needed work) you heavily undermine it with the way you put it across.

EDIT: Kriss put it across better than me.

[grep]

Are you just here to snipe? for your information they aren't ignoring it, these claims are actually the subject of much discussion but unlike you they won't make sweeping pronouncements without factual proof, and incredible as it may seem they have vastly more knowledge than you about how the game is supposed to work.

Some of the thoughts and research here are interesting and thought provoking but the jury is still out.

Kriss, Paul C stated that by no other means SI will tweak the difficulty level that is correct from their point of view.

I was not aware that SI may discuss it a bit therefore the matter could be seen from a different point of view but are you really certain they are at least discussing it internally or this is only a way to hijack us ?

I trust you but Paul C stated the opposite 2 days ago therefore we are upset.

If they are discussing it there would be fair an official statement, despite the final decision of course.

[Kriss]

Kriss, Paul C stated that by no other means SI will tweak the difficulty level that is correct from their point of view.

I was not aware that SI may discuss it a bit therefore the matter could be seen from a different point of view but are you really certain they are at least discussing it internally or this is only a way to hijack us ?

I trust you but Paul C stated the opposite 2 days ago therefore we are upset.

What he actually said was that there are certain factors which can't realistically be tweaked any lower and SI have never entertained the idea of difficulty levels per se.

If you don't stop continually insinuating that they make a habit of being underhand and would lie to people I'm going to get seriously annoyed.

Get this through your head, SI want to make the best and most realistic football management game it's possible to make within the obvious restrictions of the programming environment.

They highly value the feedback from their customer base, be it positive or negative, provided it's at least reasonably constructive.

They won't respond directly to every post or even thread, but they won't miss any of significance.

They will probably completely ignore people who seem to be on a mission to criticise and nothing more.

[Sharpy07]

what he actually said was that there are certain factors which can't realistically be tweaked any lower and si have never entertained the idea of difficulty levels per se.

If you don't stop continually insinuating that they make a habit of being underhand and would lie to people i'm going to get seriously annoyed.

Get this through your head, si want to make the best and most realistic football management game it's possible to make within the obvious restrictions of the programming environment.

They highly value the feedback from their customer base, be it positive or negative, provided it's at least reasonably constructive.

They won't respond directly to every post or even thread, but they won't miss any of significance.

They will probably completely ignore people who seem to be on a mission to criticise and nothing more.

well said kriss!!!!!

[stf1979]

Thank you Erimus1876 !!

[speedas]

Its easy to do the Scottish Leagues yourself Just download the database, open your editor and click on Tactical Attributes of the teams you want to improve.

As a guide these are the values I've used for the ones I did...

If it works and I get some positive feedback from people who notice its more of a challenge, I'll put the time in updating as many AI clubs as I can (including Scotland).

I don't really understand, you put the same attributes for each national manager in your test ? Why change neutral tactical attributes ?

[grep]

I meant " will not tweak " instead of " will tweak " , my grammar mistake.

Anyway you should expect some criticism by customers who are not happy with a product that let you win easily. Or are we all wrong wanting a challenge we paid for ?????

Would you like to have a woman who has no pleasure having sex ? It is like playing FM with no challenge, the same thing.

[jase19]

kriss with the game winning goal.

what a lot of people seem to not understand is the fact that as soon as SI "makes the game more difficult" ... sure, maybe that 30% number drops a bit. maybe 10% or maybe 20%... whatever the number, you can be almost assured that the people who checked off that the "game is too difficult" will go up nearly as much.

you will never have everyone completely happy.

sorry for my grammar... have friday off... weekend drinking started a bit early.

[grep]

kriss with the game winning goal.

what a lot of people seem to not understand is the fact that as soon as SI "makes the game more difficult" ... sure, maybe that 30% number drops a bit. maybe 10% or maybe 20%... whatever the number, you can be almost assured that the people who checked off that the "game is too difficult" will go up nearly as much.

you will never have everyone completely happy.

sorry for my grammar... have friday off... weekend drinking started a bit early.

You are right but if that 30% wouldn't complain it would seem that we like to waste our money buying devices that give no pleasure.

[Kriss]

.

Anyway you should expect some criticism by customers who are not happy with a product that let you win easily. Or are we all wrong wanting a challenge we paid for ????? .

You don't appear to have looked at the poll lately:D and if you are in the minority (according to that poll) then why not use FMRTE to make it exactly as hard as your heart desires?

Don't tell me you don't use it either, I always check who's hanging round in that thread when FMRTE is waiting an update, it's enlightening;)

[jase19]

You are right but if that 30% wouldn't complain it would seem that we like to waste our money buying devices that give no pleasure.

i'm not saying you don't have the right to complain.. i'm just simply saying if they were able to increase the difficulty, some of the 30% might be happy, but they would probably end up with a new 30% who now think they game is too hard and unplayable.

[grep]

Don't tell me you don't use it either, I always check who's hanging round in that thread when FMRTE is waiting an update, it's enlightening;)

Ah... I accept the fact you are starting to joke a bit, this way it's easier to chat.

BTW I've never used FMRTE but I know it very well...... it's a powerful freeware editor who SI IMO should give for free.

If I used FMRTE and compaling for the easiness of FM I would have pshyco issues. Then, I have never been in that thread, you know that if you had looked at it for real. Could you please point me to the FMRTE thread ? I do not find it.

I often check the poll's thread instead, yes.

Then, I wouldn't be so stupid to check for new FMRTE versions having disabled the autoupdate of FM in Steam

[hatmab123]

i'm not saying you don't have the right to complain.. i'm just simply saying if they were able to increase the difficulty, some of the 30% might be happy, but they would probably end up with a new 30% who now think they game is too hard and unplayable.

By the same token, according to this way of thinking, 30% of this years customers will seriously consider NOT spending their money (especially during difficult economic times) on a game that is no challenge. It is commendable that SI do monitor these forums and contribute on occasion. However, to completely ignore approximately one third of this years customers would be foolish. I realise that they may not be able to make changes immediately, but any business looking to retain loyal customers in this day and age needs to adapt and react to consumers requirements. In other words it is up to SI to reach some form of compromise between an easily playable game and a game that can provide a challenge to more experienced/hardcore players.

Paying £30 for a game that I then have to "adapt" to suit my own needs feels much like doing SI's job for them. A bit like going to a restaurant and having to cook your own meal with the ingredients the restaurant provides you. I certainly wouldn't want to do it twice!

Just my tuppence worth.

[Kriss]

Put it this way, you may find it too easy, me I'm a LLaMa, if they made it any harder I'd get the sack every season (instead of every other season:D) if you really just wanted a hard game of FM you could find one.

If the game is a tad easy in certain circumstances that would be much more pronounced in top European leagues of which almost all of us have as much inbuilt knowledge as the people who actually manage in them.

In Colombia Div2 where I don't know a Gomez from a Gomes and I'm managing a part time team, it's plenty bloody hard enough;)

[hatmab123]

Put it this way, you may find it too easy, me I'm a LLaMa, if they made it any harder I'd get the sack every season (instead of every other season:D) if you really just wanted a hard game of FM you could find one.

If the game is a tad easy in certain circumstances that would be much more pronounced in top European leagues of which almost all of us have as much inbuilt knowledge as the people who actually manage in them.

In Colombia Div2 where I don't know a Gomez from a Gomes and I'm managing a part time team, it's plenty bloody hard enough;)

Granted, I could start playing like that and yes it would be a tricky game. However, FM is marketed as "The most realistic, immersive and playable football management simulation ever...".

Let's look at that quote from the current advert for FM12 on Steam.

Playable - yes it is playable.

Immersive - undoubtedly or else feelings wouldn't run so highly about it.

Realistic - not when I win the Champions League managing Glasgow Rangers in my first season beating Man Utd home and away en-route to the final.

Compare the realism of this version to FM11, when I couldn't get near a Champions League final as Rangers despite numerous attempts!

Maybe I have suddenly upped my own attributes - or maybe something else is afoot here...:confused:

[jase19]

Granted, I could start playing like that and yes it would be a tricky game. However, FM is marketed as "The most realistic, immersive and playable football management simulation ever...".

Let's look at that quote from the current advert for FM12 on Steam.

Playable - yes it is playable.

Immersive - undoubtedly or else feelings wouldn't run so highly about it.

Realistic - not when I win the Champions League managing Glasgow Rangers in my first season beating Man Utd home and away en-route to the final.

Compare the realism of this version to FM11, when I couldn't get near a Champions League final as Rangers despite numerous attempts!

Maybe I have suddenly upped my own attributes - or maybe something else is afoot here...:confused:

and you did that with the default tactics, just hitting continue over and over like everyone is complaining about?

[hatmab123]

No, to be honest with you I used a 4-4-2 but moved the left and right midfielders into attacking right/left midfield/wingers, short passing and moved the attacking slider up 3 clicks.

Basically, after that, yes it was pretty much continue with the AssMan doing press/teamtalks etc. I kept the same tactic for the whole season and didn't need to change it whatsoever.

The AI was unable to respond/adapt and present my team with any challenge. Therefore how "realistic" is it that opposition managers wouldn't adapt to counter a tactic?:confused:

Also, in terms of realism, in the same game Celtic finished 28 points behind Rangers in the league in 4th place and the manager didn't get the sack - Dundee Utd and Hibs finished above them!

In previous FM versions I have employed similar tactics but without such success - just saying that is all. I love this series of games and this is the first time I have really had cause to make any complaint about it.

Moved back to FM11 for now - might start a new FM12 this weekend and experiment a bit.

[Validicus]

I feel that it's been too easy for a very long time. Nevertheless, I can't say I'm finding FM12 any easier than recent versions. Fact is though, the argument in favour of the game being too easy would seem strong if you consider how virtually everyone has won countless doubles/trebles/quadruples in their CM/FM "careers", while the vast majority have experienced taking an obscure a team up the divisions and making them the best club world in the world with ease on several saves, and I'd definitely say everyone has won multiple back-to-back league titles on many of their saves.

Even if you go to a random country and take over a very weak team there, you'll still overachieve and conquer all before you, even if not right away. There's no real challenge. Yes, sometimes success can take longer by virtue of handicapping yourself as much as possible, but there's still an inevitability about success. 90% of the time it's not IF, it's WHEN. With each annual release, more people gradually join the group that yearn for a challenging game where accolades require a great deal of effort, perhaps even to the point of it actually feeling like some sort of accomplishment to win things. Alas, there are obviously nowhere near enough people who want this (at least not yet). After all, if the demand was there, the game would already be much harder than it is.