FM23: The Art of Possession Football

[dzek]

On 16/12/2022 at 08:45, Cleon said:

They're all part of the same thing, so equally as important as each other.

I know that everything is important but to beat AI managers which is the most important? Which come first?

[aderow]

2 hours ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

I know that everything is important but to beat AI managers which is the most important? Which come first?

I think the point is that there isn't one thing that is most important. You need multiple things working together to make a tactic that is coherent. It doesn't matter if you start with a formation or a set of team instructions or a set of roles/duties you want to use. At the end of the day everything you end up choosing for that tactic has to work together in order for that tactic to be effective.

[dzek]

4 hours ago, aderow said:

I think the point is that there isn't one thing that is most important. You need multiple things working together to make a tactic that is coherent. It doesn't matter if you start with a formation or a set of team instructions or a set of roles/duties you want to use. At the end of the day everything you end up choosing for that tactic has to work together in order for that tactic to be effective.

I know but you speak about preferred playing style. I'm trying to say that AI managers with their decisions will have some pros and cons since its a game and not real life. AI can get as far as developers of the game want but every year there are spaces which are more vulnerable than others. Playing with a preferred playing style to feel the manager role more as in real life and playing against AI decisions and mechanics of the game its two different things. So maybe some formations have more advantage than others(without TIs and PIs). Or maybe if you stick with same TIs for every formation/shape maybe its more important which means TIs have a little or more advantage than the shape of the team.

[dodge_10]

16 horas atrás, Cleon disse:

Yeah the PF would be a good choice. I wrote about strikers quite recently and how to select the best role to fit your tactics.

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2022/09/09/choosing-the-best-striker-role/

Thanks! I'll read it and think about the change I've made.

[Cleon]

12 hours ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

I know that everything is important but to beat AI managers which is the most important? Which come first?

There isn't a hierarchy that's the whole point. Everything is equal.

9 hours ago, aderow said:

I think the point is that there isn't one thing that is most important. You need multiple things working together to make a tactic that is coherent. It doesn't matter if you start with a formation or a set of team instructions or a set of roles/duties you want to use. At the end of the day everything you end up choosing for that tactic has to work together in order for that tactic to be effective.

Yups spot on.

4 hours ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

I know but you speak about preferred playing style. I'm trying to say that AI managers with their decisions will have some pros and cons since its a game and not real life. AI can get as far as developers of the game want but every year there are spaces which are more vulnerable than others. Playing with a preferred playing style to feel the manager role more as in real life and playing against AI decisions and mechanics of the game its two different things. So maybe some formations have more advantage than others(without TIs and PIs). Or maybe if you stick with same TIs for every formation/shape maybe its more important which means TIs have a little or more advantage than the shape of the team.

Every system has pro and cons whether it's the AI manager or the human user. Every system has things that can be taken advantage of.

Sounds to me though that you're more looking for exploits and looking to "game" the game rather than play. And I think that discussion isn't for this topic, as I'd rather teach people how the game works in a logical way. Not in a way to school the AI by taking advantage of bad coding or game mechanics.

[dzek]

18 hours ago, Cleon said:

Sounds to me though that you're more looking for exploits and looking to "game" the game rather than play. And I think that discussion isn't for this topic, as I'd rather teach people how the game works in a logical way. Not in a way to school the AI by taking advantage of bad coding or game mechanics.

I agree with this but I just ask this question for clarity from a guy who knows better from me in tactics. Thank you for your answer!

[Cleon]

If you want to read about dominating possession even further then check out this thread I did last week. We went from a side who was happy to have 30% of possession to a heavy possession side, going to 64%+ and then 74%+ the following season 

 

[ARodgers]

Quick question regarding the full back on Attack duty and crossing in a possession based system. How do you curtail them from constantly trying to cross the ball instead of recycling possession.

I'm using a possession heavy 4-2-3-1 with a FB (A) with the stay wider PI partnered with a IW (S) on my left flank, I'm finding the space opening up as planned for the full back but the player runs down the line and tries to get a fairly aimless cross away which seems a bit counter intuitive to the style.

Is there a way to tone this down whilst maintaining the same width & forward running?

[Cleon]

18 minutes ago, ARodgers said:

Quick question regarding the full back on Attack duty and crossing in a possession based system. How do you curtail them from constantly trying to cross the ball instead of recycling possession.

I'm using a possession heavy 4-2-3-1 with a FB (A) with the stay wider PI partnered with a IW (S) on my left flank, I'm finding the space opening up as planned for the full back but the player runs down the line and tries to get a fairly aimless cross away which seems a bit counter intuitive to the style.

Is there a way to tone this down whilst maintaining the same width & forward running?

It's a by product of your shape too. In mine he has central and wide player to interact with and pass too. In a 4-2-3-1 the dynamic is a little different usally because of how the CM's line up and the fullback will likely go deeper initially than compared to my set up. But there are things you can do. You could ask him not to take risks, as this will encourage him to be less risky than needed with his passing. especially for long/direct balls. Or you could give him a support role and ask him to cross less, if that's the main aim. He'll just start his run later/deeper than usual.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Cleon

[ARodgers]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

It's a by product of your shape too. In mine he has central and wide player to interact with and pass too. In a 4-2-3-1 the dynamic is a little different usally because of how the CM's line up and the fullback will likely go deeper initially than compared to my set up. But there are things you can do. You could ask him not to take risks, as this will encourage him to be less risky than needed with his passing. especially for long/direct balls. Or you could give him a support role and ask him to cross less, if that's the main aim. He'll just start his run later/deeper than usual.

Thanks for the reply! I'll ask him to take less risks for a few games and see if there's a noticeable difference as I wasn't sure how much of his game that setting would impact. I'm enjoying the width & marauding runs but just not the end product, like everything though it's a balancing act between being overly safe & creating dangerous situations.

[kalongtongan]

I enjoyed reading this, I know this article from the first time you announced it on twitter and I read it on your site. In fact I enjoyed this thread even more from the start of your post to the end of the line from the responders.

This discussion gave me more knowledge about this game about pairs and combinations, PRD and tactical styles which are always evolving in each new version.

Edited December 21, 2022 by kalongtongan

[Panosgeo79]

On 18/12/2022 at 20:44, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

I know that everything is important but to beat AI managers which is the most important? Which come first?

For me the ground breaking was when i realised what attributes mean and the combinations of them.

for instance i couldnt understand why good level opponents pass through my midfield 

Then i realise that i need not only off the ball att but also positioning among others.

Attributes are the most important thing and make a mediocre tactic look good

Anyway about the formation start to think who will pass,who will run for the ball and who will cover the space 

Its a good start point to make a good formation in order to beat an opponent

Edited December 21, 2022 by Panosgeo79

[dzek]

22 minutes ago, Panosgeo79 said:

For me the ground breaking was when i realised what attributes mean and the combinations of them.

for instance i couldnt understand why good level opponents pass through my midfield 

Then i realise that i need not only off the ball att but also positioning among others.

Attributes are the most important thing and make a mediocre tactic look good

Anyway about the formation start to think who will pass,who will run for the ball and who will cover the space 

Its a good start point to make a good formation in order to beat an opponent

For this year attributes are the most important thing as you said.

[TheBigBoss]

Another great learning thread from @Cleon thank you. Been using a very similar tactic to yours with some decent success. As its a league one team personnel was always going to be a problem but it's worked really well. Often opt with DLF(s) than F9.

Find my team create more chances with the balanced approach 

[gunnerfan]

Thank you, @Cleon, not only for a great article (I remember the original Art of Possession article and have been incorporating aspects of it ever since), but also a major breath of fresh air as I've been following the FM23 Feedback thread. It's been refreshing to read specifics about what's better about the ME and why. I've tried a few times in the last few versions of FM to incorporate the RPM, but always seem to struggle with matching the best player to the role and I revert to using a mezzala paired with a CM(D). But I'll now give it another look. 

[TheBigBoss]

Felt like a lot of the time I was having possession for possession sake and I wasn't scoring for me I changed from a Deep Lying Forward to an Advanced Forward and because of that changed the Roaming Playmaker to an Advanced Playmaker. Now I feel like I keep a lot of possession but having that striker playing on the last man is a game changer

[zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz]

@Cleon If you were to adapt the 4-3-3 into a 4-4-2 diamond what roles would you go for with the front three? Would you keep the false nine?

My thinking leans toward either AM-s behind a DLF-s and AF-a or a SS-a behind two support strikers but I see potential issues with both, so I'm curious to hear how you would do it.

[Cleon]

36 minutes ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

@Cleon If you were to adapt the 4-3-3 into a 4-4-2 diamond what roles would you go for with the front three? Would you keep the false nine?

My thinking leans toward either AM-s behind a DLF-s and AF-a or a SS-a behind two support strikers but I see potential issues with both, so I'm curious to hear how you would do it.

It would entirely depend, this isnt' just a minor change it's a totally different tactic so everyone would need different roles not just the front 3. The way it functions would differ, the way we progress the football up and the pitch etc.

[Lira95]

Very nice article, Cleon! One question: what changes would you make if you wanted to use inverted wingbacks?

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, Lira95 said:

Very nice article, Cleon! One question: what changes would you make if you wanted to use inverted wingbacks?

Probably change the entire shape as I think they’re wasted in a formation that uses a DM. They don’t position or behave like you’d expect them to without.

[Cleon]

Read this thread. It shows you how to analyse your tactic, spot issues and fix them;

 

[sven78]

Really interesting read. I have implemented this with a new Feyenoord save and from the outset comfortably into high 60's low 70's of possession each match.

Just a couple of queries / changes that I was looking to implement purely on available players.....you have set your left IW on support and right IW on attack....was this based on the strength of the players you had. With Feyenoord it would suit current squad to have this reversed so the left IW is set to attack and right to support. Just wondered if you thought this would affect it. I am going to alter this tonight and see what the outcome is.

I was planning to also flip the RPM and Mezz to keep the ATT selections on same side as best candidate for the Mezz I just think would be more suited to the left side.

Also, how did you find goals output form the F9. Again I think its purely personnel available, Feyenoord pretty weak in the forward options from the start.....but just struggling to get them into the games

Very encouraging start implementing this as its the style I prefer teams to play and it definitely dominates the ball. I have noticed some very good set-up play from this which in a few games has created very simple chances for F9 to score

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, sven78 said:

Really interesting read. I have implemented this with a new Feyenoord save and from the outset comfortably into high 60's low 70's of possession each match.

Just a couple of queries / changes that I was looking to implement purely on available players.....you have set your left IW on support and right IW on attack....was this based on the strength of the players you had. With Feyenoord it would suit current squad to have this reversed so the left IW is set to attack and right to support. Just wondered if you thought this would affect it. I am going to alter this tonight and see what the outcome is.

I was planning to also flip the RPM and Mezz to keep the ATT selections on same side as best candidate for the Mezz I just think would be more suited to the left side.

Also, how did you find goals output form the F9. Again I think its purely personnel available, Feyenoord pretty weak in the forward options from the start.....but just struggling to get them into the games

Very encouraging start implementing this as its the style I prefer teams to play and it definitely dominates the ball. I have noticed some very good set-up play from this which in a few games has created very simple chances for F9 to score

I play attributeless and took over the 2nd worse team in Denmark, so my players aren't good either and I actually can't see just how poor they are.

The duties of the IW's are down to what I was creating and wanting from the side. If you're flipping the duties around then the entire tactic is likely better flipped to keep the same type of play that it was created for.

The F9 scored a lot of goals, think he had something like 42 in 31 games.

If you want more ideas about dominating the ball while being really aggressive, check out the link I posted above.

[sven78]

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

I play attributeless and took over the 2nd worse team in Denmark, so my players aren't good either and I actually can't see just how poor they are.

The duties of the IW's are down to what I was creating and wanting from the side. If you're flipping the duties around then the entire tactic is likely better flipped to keep the same type of play that it was created for.

The F9 scored a lot of goals, think he had something like 42 in 31 games.

If you want more ideas about dominating the ball while being really aggressive, check out the link I posted above.

Playing attributeless….next level that haha.

yes, I thought it would be better to flip it, it hasnt affected it so far…fingers crossed. Definately a bit more potent now the 2 players I felt would be better connected on the left of the formation are together on ATT on that side

Just on the half-back….again I know you are playing attributeless in the one described but just general question do you think this is more suited to a CB or a DM. I only ask as Im short of depth for suitable midfielders but have a CB with what I think are ideal attributes, currently contemplating whether to re-train him in that position or just play him anyway

[StalOlympus]

On 17.01.2023 at 18:36, Cleon said:

I play attributeless and took over the 2nd worse team in Denmark, so my players aren't good either and I actually can't see just how poor they are.

The duties of the IW's are down to what I was creating and wanting from the side. If you're flipping the duties around then the entire tactic is likely better flipped to keep the same type of play that it was created for.

The F9 scored a lot of goals, think he had something like 42 in 31 games.

If you want more ideas about dominating the ball while being really aggressive, check out the link I posted above.

I don't know why but my F9 doesn't score at all, he only scored a few goals when I played him in a different role. They don't even shoot.

Edited January 18, 2023 by StalOlympus

[sven78]

11 hours ago, StalOlympus said:

I don't know why but my F9 doesn't score at all, he only scored a few goals when I played him in a different role. They don't even shoot.

Yes, my F9 is really struggling, apart from the odd very well worked tap in which look great in terms of build-up they very rarely feature. 

Working through various options but can't seem to find a solution to this. In some games they are non-existant.

[_mxrky]

@CleonWhat’s the reasoning for using positive instead of balanced mentality? I know you usually use balanced mentality in your tactics even for possession based ones.

[ww1988]

Great article Cleon, thank you for writing it and sharing it. 
 

If I wanted to change the role of the F9 to an AF as I have a weird obsession with wanting my striker to score bucketloads, would you change the roles and/or duties of those around him? 

[Cleon]

16 hours ago, _mxrky said:

@CleonWhat’s the reasoning for using positive instead of balanced mentality? I know you usually use balanced mentality in your tactics even for possession based ones.

The way Pivots work was reworked on FM23, so I used positive to be more aggressive as we are playing a high press. No point playing a high press and sitting back deep in mentality, as then that would lend itself to a more mid/low block. But I want a high block to had the mentality to match.

1 hour ago, ww1988 said:

Great article Cleon, thank you for writing it and sharing it. 
 

If I wanted to change the role of the F9 to an AF as I have a weird obsession with wanting my striker to score bucketloads, would you change the roles and/or duties of those around him? 

The F9 can score bucketloads too. But if you want a AF then likely you need to change a fair few roles to take advantage of it and have players supplying the ball higher up. As it's set up now the F9 is the main scorer but also the creator by dropping deep and creating space and playing the IW's in and then them passing him the ball back to score.

[eddygodwin]

So this what I'm currently using but im trying to replicate a 3-2-5 shape in possession but i don't know if the tactic is doing great or im just lucky/clinical

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by eddygodwin

[Cleon]

Looks good. Looks like you struggle to create quality chances though. Short-term that's fine. But long-term becomes a real issue. I wrote about this in the analysis sections of the other thread I have.

[Mik_Fe]

Hi @Cleon, i've a question, fullbacks and IW, are in the same channel? or IW are in PI "stay wide"?

Dribble less in TI, Was it chosen to balance the low tempo?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[Cleon]

11 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

Hi @Cleon, i've a question, fullbacks and IW, are in the same channel? or IW are in PI "stay wide"?

Dribble less in TI, Was it chosen to balance the low tempo?

You can see in the examples on the first page the type of positions they take up. The IW comes inside slightly and the FB provides the width on the outside.

Dribble less was added to encourage more passing rather than dribblers, so we passed more as a team rather than having someone dribble with the ball high up the pitch

[TigmarPT]

This is great. It's my prefered way to set up tactics.

By the way, maybe I've missed it, but what role do you prefer for your wingers: inside forward or inverted winger? Do they bring much difference for this type of football?

[Cleon]

14 hours ago, TigmarPT said:

This is great. It's my prefered way to set up tactics.

By the way, maybe I've missed it, but what role do you prefer for your wingers: inside forward or inverted winger? Do they bring much difference for this type of football?

I don't have a preference. It all comes down to what you are creating and the type of supply and support the striker has.

[EnigMattic1]

@Cleon, you mentioned that you had started to rewrite your Ajax work. Did that ever materialise or has that been put on the back burner for now? It was, what? FM14 when you first wrote it? Would be interesting to see how you would do things almost a decade later.

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, EnigMattic1 said:

@Cleon, you mentioned that you had started to rewrite your Ajax work. Did that ever materialise or has that been put on the back burner for now? It was, what? FM14 when you first wrote it? Would be interesting to see how you would do things almost a decade later.

It was rewritten for FM21 and I never released it. I do plan on turning it into a book though for 23/24 depending on time.

[BnadnerB]

@Cleon in your striker guide you often talk about pairing certain strikers with a pair of IF’s, which I get as they go beyond the striker into space. Whats the thinking behind playing IW’s in this tactic? Surely the false 9 would create space for at least one IF rather than IW?

 

I always get confused between using an IW or IF!!!

[Cleon]

9 minutes ago, BnadnerB said:

@Cleon in your striker guide you often talk about pairing certain strikers with a pair of IF’s, which I get as they go beyond the striker into space. Whats the thinking behind playing IW’s in this tactic? Surely the false 9 would create space for at least one IF rather than IW?

 

I always get confused between using an IW or IF!!!

The idea here is that the inverted wingers on both sides, will cut inside and allow the full-backs to overlap them. This allows us to create central overloads with the on-rushing roaming playmaker and mezzala. If we can’t overload the central areas then it allows the full-backs to provide the width and frees up space for them. I wanted to focus on retaining the ball and use something that wasn't a IF. I wanted the F9 to score goals. It's basically a strikerless formation.

[herne79]

Just thought I’d chip in here and give this thread a bump.

I’ve also been playing a 433 possession based system with my create-a-club Leyton Orient Red Bull London side in League 2.  Broadly similar in set up, effective goal scoring + chances created, solid in defence and averaging 72% possession.  One thing I noticed here is the use of double BPDs - not something I’d have thought about: one yes but two to me always seemed like overkill.  I guess it gives both centre backs the same chance of launching something effective from deep, rather than just relying on one.

Something to experiment further with, especially if I evolve the system into a 4231 or (ideally) a 3421/3412.  Perhaps I should do a write up, if only I knew someone with a website to post it to…

[Cleon]

26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Just thought I’d chip in here and give this thread a bump.

I’ve also been playing a 433 possession based system with my create-a-club Leyton Orient Red Bull London side in League 2.  Broadly similar in set up, effective goal scoring + chances created, solid in defence and averaging 72% possession.  One thing I noticed here is the use of double BPDs - not something I’d have thought about: one yes but two to me always seemed like overkill.  I guess it gives both centre backs the same chance of launching something effective from deep, rather than just relying on one.

Something to experiment further with, especially if I evolve the system into a 4231 or (ideally) a 3421/3412.  Perhaps I should do a write up, if only I knew someone with a website to post it to…

We always welcome your stuff mate 

Two BPD's can be overkill yeah. But they can also be really good assets too for putting us on the front foot in one move, should we have the positional value. I was the 2nd worse team in the league when I created this tactic so lacked any real quality in attack. But it looked like my team had a bit of pace so wanted to utilise that from deep.

I just like the disruption and chaos of not knowing what was going to happen when they got the ball. Adds a bit of unpredictability and can really test your nerves at times 

[gunnerfan]

I've been using two BPDs in the current season in my 4-2-4. Results have been excellent.

 

[pedrosantos]

4 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

I've been using two BPDs in the current season in my 4-2-4. Results have been excellent.

 

Same here