Is dynamic youth ratings for nations working how it should be?

[decapitated]

I was intrigued by the concept of dynamic youth ratings. So I set up a game with the following leagues:

and went on holiday for 12 years without touching the game. The difference in youth ratings for all 8 countries is in the spoiler tag below

Spoiler

Some of these changes when judged on the performances of the international teams surprised me as the two biggest fallers England and Portugal had been quite successful at international level.

From first glance it seems success at the nations league counts for more in terms of dynamic ratings than the world cup or European championships.

I did wonder if club performance in Europe had anything to do with it. Below are results for the 3 major European club tournaments.

With Englands dominance in the champions league and international football I'm surprised their rating has had the biggest drop. Would anyone else who has played in the 2030s or beyond and has the in-game editor check their game to see what changes in dynamic youth ratings there have been.

[phnompenhandy]

Could it be due to Brexit? England has a much narrower pool of youth to draw on.

[rusty217]

3 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Could it be due to Brexit? England has a much narrower pool of youth to draw on.

Why would that affect the dynamic rating? If it affected anything it would have already affected the game start 2021 rating since it's already happened. But IIRC youth ratings only affect players of that nationality, so them potentially getting less youth players from the EU shouldn't affect it anyway.

[Zemahh]

This is interesting, hoping more editor-savvy people chime in. I would really like to know just how dynamic Youth Ratings actually are.

Let's say you took San Marino, gave them a multitude of world class players and trapped them there so they could never leave the country. I imagine they would eventually start dominating the world and it would be interesting to see just how much their Youth Rating would actually change. Is the whole thing completely unrestricted, meaning they could eventually become Brazil or Germany in terms of youth production, or do Youth Ratings really just float between a few presets in order for the game to stay somewhat realistic in that sense?

If this has already been tested somewhere, please do share the link.

[fc.cadoni]

Youth Rating alone does not make any huge impact. Game Importance (fixed), Economic Factor, population etc there are many things which has to be in equation. 

[Zemahh]

3 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Youth Rating alone does not make any huge impact. Game Importance (fixed), Economic Factor, population etc there are many things which has to be in equation. 

Yes, we know other factors have an impact, but Youth Rating is still a huge one nonetheless. What you're saying doesn't really answer whether Youth Ratings hardly being "dynamic" is by design or not.

[fc.cadoni]

2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Yes, we know other factors have an impact, but Youth Rating is still a huge one nonetheless. What you're saying doesn't really answer whether Youth Ratings hardly being "dynamic" is by design or not.

It's hard to tell because the rest options is fixed. 

[sdx15]

On 15/11/2021 at 17:35, decapitated said:

I did wonder if club performance in Europe had anything to do with it. Below are results for the 3 major European club tournaments.

Have you checked the coefficient list? That might be an important factor.

[GreenTriangle]

It seems that continental performances have an extremely small influence. In fact, it seems that growth is extremely slow. It takes at least (at least !) 10 years for the growth to become significant enough. And even in this case the difference between a nation that has a YR of 70 or 80 and one that has a YR of 140 remains huge.

Test file (2021 - 2031) : https://www.mediafire.com/file/fl6whczn4apra97/Test_Euro_8.rar/file

[obasa_G]

Things I have found out when testing for factors that can influence dynamic youth rating.

 

1. If a nation's football league is playable, the youth rating of that nation goes up quicker than if the league was not loaded.

2. For unknown reasons, it's hard for the youth ratings of certain nations to change quickly. Nations such as Spain, Italy, Wales, etc. only get changes in their youth ratings 30-40 years into the save.

3. Coefficients have little or no effect on the youth ratings.

4. The youth ratings of countries like Germany, France, Belgium improve significantly quicker and more than their counterparts.

5. Nations without leagues in the game will not see a change in their youth rating.

 

The above points are the key findings I took out from my tests. I intended to check the following factors to see if they influence the change of youth ratings in nations:

 

1. Quality of youth players

2. Youth facilities, Junior coaching and Youth recruitment of clubs in the nation.

3. Reputation of clubs in nation

4. League/ Division reputation

[GreenTriangle]

 Don't waste your time. Youth rating cannot depend on facilities or reputation because in this case Italy and Spain would have some of the highest YR increases in the entire database. It can't depend on the "(young) playres quality" either, because YR for Spain (or Italy) should have increased much more than that of Scotland. And it doesn't happened. It is much more likely that the key factor will be related to national teams (all of them, including U23 and U19).

[duesouth]

I've just started a fresh San Marino Challenge, managing the San Marino National Team as well as the new Victor San Marino club team in the Italian league structure - so this subject is really interesting for this save.

My personal view on Dynamic Youth Ratings is that the national team's success would be the key driver; the OP makes me wonder if that's correct, or perhaps how NT success is judged.  Perhaps for a country like San Marino, Nations League would be better to use to determine rank as you get to play games that you might actually win - rather than qualifiers where you generally lose heavily - so maybe SI have given that competition more weight?

I don't know if youth facilities in a league/country (and I hope it's country as you have Victor San Marino in the Italian league, FC Andorra in the Spanish League, plus the Liechtenstein clubs in the Swiss League without a domestic league) would have an impact, but that would make some sense.

However, I am very early in my save and play slowly - so likely to be some time before I see any impact.

Would be fascinated to read any long term tests and opinion on this subject - or a definitive position from SI of course!

[GreenTriangle]

Test file : https://www.mediafire.com/file/mwr2ttufnjv37hh/Europe_4_Test.rar/file

It's clear now. A possible increase of YR can only be related to national team(s) performances.
(I have modified facilities for TNS / Wales and Linfield / N. Ireland so that both have the best possible facilities, 20/20/20/20. I have also modified budgets so that both TNS and Linfield have minimum £ 20 million to spend. Conclusion : YR is not influenced by the facilities level, players quality level, or club's national / continental performances).  
Maybe someone thought that by winning the championship and winning some (more) Champions League games he could get the an YR increase. No, not by far. In fact, these performances are of no importance. What matters is "something" about national teams. Maybe that manager has to take over those national teams and get the best possible performances ?

 

[obasa_G]

2 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

Test file : https://www.mediafire.com/file/mwr2ttufnjv37hh/Europe_4_Test.rar/file

It's clear now. A possible increase of YR can only be related to national team(s) performances.
(I have modified facilities for TNS / Wales and Linfield / N. Ireland so that both have the best possible facilities, 20/20/20/20. I have also modified budgets so that both TNS and Linfield have minimum £ 20 million to spend. Conclusion : YR is not influenced by the facilities level, players quality level, or club's national / continental performances).  
Maybe someone thought that by winning the championship and winning some (more) Champions League games he could get the an YR increase. No, not by far. In fact, these performances are of no importance. What matters is "something" about national teams. Maybe that manager has to take over those national teams and get the best possible performances ?

 

Maybe you could add world class players (200 CA 200 PA) and declare them for a particular nation (San Marino, Wales, etc.). Maybe an improvement in the nation's  performances, at all levels (senior and youth), could  lead to a rise in their youth ratings.

[lucasl]

Same thing here, over 10 years into the career and no change at all to dynamic rating desptie significantly increasing nations reputation. Seems like the feature we wanted for years, the one branded as a HUGE game changer for long term saves by Miles is almost not working at all. Bravo SI, well done.

[GreenTriangle]

It was not labeled as bein a "huge game changer". It was strictly an additional information and I can assume that it is an experimental change. There will probably be bigger changes in the future. For now, it started with small changes because the youth rating is an extremely important parameter on which many other aspects of the game depend. The problem is how this information was interpreted. Some thought that from now on a few trophies won in Andorra (for example) plus some good performances in European club competitions will dramatically increase Andorra's rating. This does not happen and will not also happen in the future. It would be far too unrealistic.

[janis]

On 17/11/2021 at 20:28, GreenTriangle said:

Test file : https://www.mediafire.com/file/mwr2ttufnjv37hh/Europe_4_Test.rar/file

It's clear now. A possible increase of YR can only be related to national team(s) performances.
(I have modified facilities for TNS / Wales and Linfield / N. Ireland so that both have the best possible facilities, 20/20/20/20. I have also modified budgets so that both TNS and Linfield have minimum £ 20 million to spend. Conclusion : YR is not influenced by the facilities level, players quality level, or club's national / continental performances).  
Maybe someone thought that by winning the championship and winning some (more) Champions League games he could get the an YR increase. No, not by far. In fact, these performances are of no importance. What matters is "something" about national teams. Maybe that manager has to take over those national teams and get the best possible performances ?

 

Thank you for testing this. I was thinking my database had an error because of the youth rating not changing (san marinese challange). So the NT has to do all te work, I understand.

[lucasl]

15 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

It was not labeled as bein a "huge game changer". It was strictly an additional information and I can assume that it is an experimental change. There will probably be bigger changes in the future. For now, it started with small changes because the youth rating is an extremely important parameter on which many other aspects of the game depend. The problem is how this information was interpreted. Some thought that from now on a few trophies won in Andorra (for example) plus some good performances in European club competitions will dramatically increase Andorra's rating. This does not happen and will not also happen in the future. It would be far too unrealistic.

Wasn't labelled as huge, hmmm, interesting.

And I'm not talking about some edge cases like San Marino or Andorra being made a new powerhouse (although you would expect them to make a big progress too if they would improve the reputation). I'm talking about some countries like Poland, Ukraine, Sweden. You would expect that for example going from rep 6000 to rep 9000 for Poland would mean a huge boost to nations youth rating, but it does not made any (or almost any) change. So the way I see it it doesn't work as any reasonable person would expect it to work.

 

Another problem is that such as you said 'extremely important parameter' it's just an arbitrary number, that does not have any kind of logical explanation. So the base for generating new players in the game is some number, that has not been updated for several years in most of the cases. Also there are plenty of just ridiculous examples, like  Qatar having a bigger youth rating than Serbia. 

[talc25]

I spend the last days testing this out with both Vaduz and FC Andorra and correspondent NT Liechenstein and Andorra. With Vaduz I only messed with the clubs recruitment, since they only recruit Liech youth to see if better youth getting called up to the NT would end up in better performances and increases in the rating, the best result that produced was 4 wins for the NT over the course of 9 seasons and a really good youngster with a PA (seen with editor) of 139 who got sold to City for 12M (AI was dealing stuff, I mostly simmed the save). With the Andorra save, I did some mass editing, making all players with a andorran nationality have 20 on all atributes and Model Citizen attributes, no changes to reputation neither on the players nor the NT nor their CA or PA and replicated the previous club procedures with Vaduz on club level. Andorra NT ended up winning the World Cup, with 1 loss in 35 games on a friendly against Germany by 2-1 away and getting qualified for the 2024 European Championship with no defeats and only 3 goals conceded. (Only started the Andorra save sims today afternoon, will update results when I get them). So far, Liechenstein Youth Rating had no changes, neither had the Switzerland ratings. Since Vaduz compete on the swiss league and there are a couple of swiss players in the team, I keep track to see if it changes. Current season with FC Andorra I max all attributes on the players as well to see if increasing club performance by a huge margin will have any bearing in the Youth Rating as well. Will update when possible

[talc25]

3 hours ago, talc25 said:

I spend the last days testing this out with both Vaduz and FC Andorra and correspondent NT Liechenstein and Andorra. With Vaduz I only messed with the clubs recruitment, since they only recruit Liech youth to see if better youth getting called up to the NT would end up in better performances and increases in the rating, the best result that produced was 4 wins for the NT over the course of 9 seasons and a really good youngster with a PA (seen with editor) of 139 who got sold to City for 12M (AI was dealing stuff, I mostly simmed the save). With the Andorra save, I did some mass editing, making all players with a andorran nationality have 20 on all atributes and Model Citizen attributes, no changes to reputation neither on the players nor the NT nor their CA or PA and replicated the previous club procedures with Vaduz on club level. Andorra NT ended up winning the World Cup, with 1 loss in 35 games on a friendly against Germany by 2-1 away and getting qualified for the 2024 European Championship with no defeats and only 3 goals conceded. (Only started the Andorra save sims today afternoon, will update results when I get them). So far, Liechenstein Youth Rating had no changes, neither had the Switzerland ratings. Since Vaduz compete on the swiss league and there are a couple of swiss players in the team, I keep track to see if it changes. Current season with FC Andorra I max all attributes on the players as well to see if increasing club performance by a huge margin will have any bearing in the Youth Rating as well. Will update when possible

July 2026, edited stats for Andorra players, no reputation changes made. Two world cups won, 1 Euro won, number 1 rank nation in the world, youth rating still stuck at the starting 36. FC Andorra players reached La Liga, every trophy available won except the bottom european competion cup, 3 Copas Del Rey, 2 Spanish Super Cups, 1 Europa League, 1 Champions League.

Will now sim the game for 10 years until 2036 with FC Andorra and Vaduz both uncontrolled, but set up to succeed by themselves, will see how it progresses and report any changes after that, then new sim for 10 or 15 years.

[fc.cadoni]

Player can hold 20 in all attributes without adding "Freeze Attributes" via IGE?

[talc25]

In my previous update I mentioned wanting to sim  for another 10 to 15 years, honestly gave up on that idea, the dynamic seems random by the game. If anyone wants to continue where I left it, I can upload the save file somewhere. Will post the results after reaching July 1st, 2036. Take into account I used FMRTE to check the Youth Ratings and did not take prints of the actual values from the tool. I checked the ones that decapitated posted on his 1st post, and checked the ones I was keeping track and simulating to see what would affect, if anything and how fast, the changes, adding Liechtenstein and Andorra. There are no prints for Valduz or the Liechtenstein NT because I didn't tinker enough with them for them to be successfull apart from having a few season in the Swiss 1st tier for Valduz.

Anyway, on with what matters, the valus:

England - 140 ; Italy - 145 ; Spain - 145 ; France - 161 ; Germany - 164 ; Netherlands - 132 ; Portugal - 140 ; Scotland - 83 ;

The only loaded leagues I had were the Portuguese, Swiss and Spanish, possibly why the different values on Scotland, but both had Portugal and Spain, both with different results in Youth Ratings. If anything, the spanish rating on my save should've been higher, since F.C. Andorra play in the spanish league system and count towards spanish reputation. Arguably, Spain in my save was more successfull, but ended up the same. (wich goes against what was promoted about the Dynamic Youth Rating).

Where it should've had full effect - Both Vaduz and F.C. Andorra recruited exclusively from Liechtenstein and Andorra nationalities, both clubs were setup to have max settings on recruitment, wich would've ended up bringing AT LEAST decent players to good players every couple of years, adding to that the success Andorra had on the club and international front, in the 13 year span becoming one of the biggest clubs in the world, should've bumped up the ratings by at least a small amount. However, both the ratings are the following in 2036:

Andorra with a wooping 36 Youth Rating, despite all the success they had, wich is the same as when the save starts and Liechtenstein with 42, the same as save starts, wich is higher than Andorra, despite having no success at all and no changes having been recorded on those two nations. Is the system bugged, not well implemented or completely random and not really dynamic? From what I gather so far, it seems that the player actions have no impact on wether the nation actually develops or not, or if they do, we need to have 100 to 150 year long saves to actually see the dynamic impact for the smaller nations in effect. Would be great to have an answer from the higher ups or be able to report this as a bug, but no clue if it is indeed a bug or working as intendeed, since the only way to test this is either simulate the game for far too long, wich I don't have a PC capable to do so in a reasonable amount of time or have to "cheat" the game into getting the effect as fast as possible without knowing if it's even possible.

Sorry about the long wall of text, images in the Spoiler due to resolution and size!

Edit: Went ahead and uploaded the file anyway, if anyone wants it, go ahead and have fun - 2036 Andorra YR test

 

Spoiler

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by talc25
Save Upload

[Sharkn20]

11 hours ago, talc25 said:

In my previous update I mentioned wanting to sim  for another 10 to 15 years, honestly gave up on that idea, the dynamic seems random by the game. If anyone wants to continue where I left it, I can upload the save file somewhere. Will post the results after reaching July 1st, 2036. Take into account I used FMRTE to check the Youth Ratings and did not take prints of the actual values from the tool. I checked the ones that decapitated posted on his 1st post, and checked the ones I was keeping track and simulating to see what would affect, if anything and how fast, the changes, adding Liechtenstein and Andorra. There are no prints for Valduz or the Liechtenstein NT because I didn't tinker enough with them for them to be successfull apart from having a few season in the Swiss 1st tier for Valduz.

Anyway, on with what matters, the valus:

England - 140 ; Italy - 145 ; Spain - 145 ; France - 161 ; Germany - 164 ; Netherlands - 132 ; Portugal - 140 ; Scotland - 83 ;

The only loaded leagues I had were the Portuguese, Swiss and Spanish, possibly why the different values on Scotland, but both had Portugal and Spain, both with different results in Youth Ratings. If anything, the spanish rating on my save should've been higher, since F.C. Andorra play in the spanish league system and count towards spanish reputation. Arguably, Spain in my save was more successfull, but ended up the same. (wich goes against what was promoted about the Dynamic Youth Rating).

Where it should've had full effect - Both Vaduz and F.C. Andorra recruited exclusively from Liechtenstein and Andorra nationalities, both clubs were setup to have max settings on recruitment, wich would've ended up bringing AT LEAST decent players to good players every couple of years, adding to that the success Andorra had on the club and international front, in the 13 year span becoming one of the biggest clubs in the world, should've bumped up the ratings by at least a small amount. However, both the ratings are the following in 2036:

Andorra with a wooping 36 Youth Rating, despite all the success they had, wich is the same as when the save starts and Liechtenstein with 42, the same as save starts, wich is higher than Andorra, despite having no success at all and no changes having been recorded on those two nations. Is the system bugged, not well implemented or completely random and not really dynamic? From what I gather so far, it seems that the player actions have no impact on wether the nation actually develops or not, or if they do, we need to have 100 to 150 year long saves to actually see the dynamic impact for the smaller nations in effect. Would be great to have an answer from the higher ups or be able to report this as a bug, but no clue if it is indeed a bug or working as intendeed, since the only way to test this is either simulate the game for far too long, wich I don't have a PC capable to do so in a reasonable amount of time or have to "cheat" the game into getting the effect as fast as possible without knowing if it's even possible.

Sorry about the long wall of text, images in the Spoiler due to resolution and size!

Edit: Went ahead and uploaded the file anyway, if anyone wants it, go ahead and have fun - 2036 Andorra YR test

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

As stated above if the Country has no league on their own, the YR won't change, so you wasted your time basically. 

Try to repeat your experiment with a Country which actually has a league.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Sharkn20

[talc25]

14 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

As stated above if the Country has no league on their own, the YR won't change, so you wasted your time basically. 

Try to repeat your experiment with a Country which actually has a league.

Surely, but there's a Liechtenstein Cup, that should've had some effect. And it still doesn't explain how can my Spain's youth rating be the same with higher success, or why Portugal got 13 rating higher than the OP's Portugal. Both were loading into the save, neither were managed in. Still feels random by design.

[XaW]

1 hour ago, talc25 said:

Surely, but there's a Liechtenstein Cup, that should've had some effect. And it still doesn't explain how can my Spain's youth rating be the same with higher success, or why Portugal got 13 rating higher than the OP's Portugal. Both were loading into the save, neither were managed in. Still feels random by design.

If you think you have found a bug, please report it in the bug tracker and let SI investigate.

[talc25]

5 minutes ago, XaW said:

If you think you have found a bug, please report it in the bug tracker and let SI investigate.

That's the thing, without any info on how it work or how it's supposed to work, I have no clue if it's working as intended or if the system is bugged entirely...

[XaW]

8 minutes ago, talc25 said:

That's the thing, without any info on how it work or how it's supposed to work, I have no clue if it's working as intended or if the system is bugged entirely...

Well, at the very least you'll get an official answer.

[talc25]

51 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, at the very least you'll get an official answer.

Reported it as such in this link here, hopefully it helps. Saddens me a bit, I love the game to bits, was hyped as hell about the thing, but it feels either untested, unfinished or (I hope not) a cash grab...

[dannyfc]

What does a nations Youth Rating represent, the potential quality of Newgens?

I'm not entirely convinced international success should actually drive significant changes. Both England and Germany completely revamped their grassroots systems after terrible tournament performances, which seemed to yield better youth crops over the next decade.

The likes of Belgium, Iceland and Wales have also had somewhat of a golden generation after decades doing little, but think most of it is largely luck. Are there any other examples?

A dynamic world really appeals to me to keep the game fresh, but struggling to think how it would be realistically implemented. A domestic club doing well in Europe shouldn't materially change things, but perhaps improved standard of youth facilities in the league should.

Maybe even a randomised news prompt citing grassroots investment from an association leading to a 20 point gain in youth rating. Almost like the sugar daddy effect but at national level.

 

[talc25]

13 hours ago, dannyfc said:

What does a nations Youth Rating represent, the potential quality of Newgens?

I'm not entirely convinced international success should actually drive significant changes. Both England and Germany completely revamped their grassroots systems after terrible tournament performances, which seemed to yield better youth crops over the next decade.

The likes of Belgium, Iceland and Wales have also had somewhat of a golden generation after decades doing little, but think most of it is largely luck. Are there any other examples?

A dynamic world really appeals to me to keep the game fresh, but struggling to think how it would be realistically implemented. A domestic club doing well in Europe shouldn't materially change things, but perhaps improved standard of youth facilities in the league should.

Maybe even a randomised news prompt citing grassroots investment from an association leading to a 20 point gain in youth rating. Almost like the sugar daddy effect but at national level.

 

Correct about Germany, wrong about England. The Germany case however, is that they decentralized the development, improved facilities and it wasn't only into the youth side of things, they started developing managers as well, as you can see by the rise of young and great german managers as of late. I provided an example, granted it's not a top tier one, but Luxembourg is great to explain what I tried to convey. They did not win any major prizes. Their teams did not start overachieving in european competitions But along the years, being competitive on the international stage brought interest to play for the Luxembourg side and many youngsters either move to teams close to the board for development (plenty of lads formed in Germany) and along side with getting some dual nationality players to play for them, the most notorious one atm being Gerson Rodrigues, they became quite a good side, with a pretty good a decent footbal. 5 to 7 years ago, they were one of those sides that people would scoff at and expect to beat 7 or 8 goals, and right now, they're actually respectable and tied with Ireland in points in the WC qualification stages. I don't know why would FM devs think a nation should need 50 or 60 years to become good, when real life cases show that it takes fair less time for that to happen.

[dannyfc]

1 hour ago, talc25 said:

Correct about Germany, wrong about England. The Germany case however, is that they decentralized the development, improved facilities and it wasn't only into the youth side of things, they started developing managers as well, as you can see by the rise of young and great german managers as of late. I provided an example, granted it's not a top tier one, but Luxembourg is great to explain what I tried to convey. They did not win any major prizes. Their teams did not start overachieving in european competitions But along the years, being competitive on the international stage brought interest to play for the Luxembourg side and many youngsters either move to teams close to the board for development (plenty of lads formed in Germany) and along side with getting some dual nationality players to play for them, the most notorious one atm being Gerson Rodrigues, they became quite a good side, with a pretty good a decent footbal. 5 to 7 years ago, they were one of those sides that people would scoff at and expect to beat 7 or 8 goals, and right now, they're actually respectable and tied with Ireland in points in the WC qualification stages. I don't know why would FM devs think a nation should need 50 or 60 years to become good, when real life cases show that it takes fair less time for that to happen.

Why wrong about England? They crashed out in 2010, published a revamped grassroots 'Blueprint', and now the technical ability of English players is the best it's ever been.

Don't quite follow your Luxembourg from an in-game perspective, if they haven't achieved anything what would trigger the increase in Youth Rating? Again it's largely driven by external factors that the game doesn't model. Yes international teams can progress significantly over a generation IRL, but it's not prompted by doing well in competitions, or there's little evidence for this - if anything the opposite. (i.e. poor performances trigger infrastructure change)

[talc25]

8 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

Why wrong about England? They crashed out in 2010, published a revamped grassroots 'Blueprint', and now the technical ability of English players is the best it's ever been.

Don't quite follow your Luxembourg from an in-game perspective, if they haven't achieved anything what would trigger the increase in Youth Rating? Again it's largely driven by external factors that the game doesn't model. Yes international teams can progress significantly over a generation IRL, but it's not prompted by doing well in competitions, or there's little evidence for this - if anything the opposite. (i.e. poor performances trigger infrastructure change)

The English FA didn't overhaul nothing at all like the German FA did, neither did they invest in the manager formation ability, wich you can see in the leagues, it's mostly older or retired players. There's plenty of articles about the matter, it's up to you to read them if the issue at hand is of interest to you. It was to me, that's why I educated myself on it. I explained the Luxembourg aspect, increased performances in the international stage brought more attention to the game in the country. If you fail to see it, and somehow think that the English FA are comparable to the German side of things, it's clear you don't havea full scope of the picture and are uninformed of plenty of issues, for wich I do not have a solution, nor enough space nor time to address in a forum dedicated to argue the state of Footy Manager.

[Sharkn20]

16 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

Why wrong about England? They crashed out in 2010, published a revamped grassroots 'Blueprint', and now the technical ability of English players is the best it's ever been.

Don't quite follow your Luxembourg from an in-game perspective, if they haven't achieved anything what would trigger the increase in Youth Rating? Again it's largely driven by external factors that the game doesn't model. Yes international teams can progress significantly over a generation IRL, but it's not prompted by doing well in competitions, or there's little evidence for this - if anything the opposite. (i.e. poor performances trigger infrastructure change)

Can you tell me where or who has the technical ability nowadays in England???

Because the more I see them playing, the more I think they have excellent positioning, defending and set pieces. But offensively they are very limited in what they can offer. A dribble here and there and a power 9 like Kane to push them in, I don't see anything "technical" there.

Argentina, Brazil, Spain, France even Italy they are technical... But England... Not so much.

[dannyfc]

Just now, Sharkn20 said:

Can you tell me where or who has the technical ability nowadays in England???

Because the more I see them playing, the more I think they have excellent positioning, defending and set pieces. But offensively they are very limited in what they can offer. A dribble here and there and a power 9 like Kane to push them in, I don't see anything "technical" there.

Argentina, Brazil, Spain, France even Italy they are technical... But England... Not so much.

Foden, Bellingham, Sancho, Trent Alexandra Arnold, Reece James, John Stones, Smith Rowe, Bukayo Saka....

[Sharkn20]

1 hour ago, dannyfc said:

Foden, Bellingham, Sancho, Trent Alexandra Arnold, Reece James, John Stones, Smith Rowe, Bukayo Saka....

I agree with Foden of all of them, maybe our standards of "Technique" are very different.

[Invector]

I'm here to provide a little info about this.

I'm in 2039 with Diosgyör from Hungarian 2nd division, normally Hungarian teams are bad compared to other European teams, barely any presence in European Competitions. Starting from 2026/2027, I have started having success on the European arena, won an UEFA 2 cup, then played Quarter Finals in UEFA Cup, then in 2036 I lost at Quarter Finals in Champions League to Liverpool, then in 2037 again to Liverpool but Semi Finals this time, and in 2038 again in Semi Finals but this time to Bayer Leverkusen.

My club's coefficient is 8th in Europe, just between Man Utd and Borussia Dortmund.

I also started managing Hungary in 2037 and won THE WORLD CUP with Hungary in 2038. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

Since many years I've enjoyed 20 facilities, youth recruitment and stuff.

But, Hungary's youth rating has improved from 68 to 69.

I'm running an experiment now, I've picked Serbia, Bosnia and Slovenia for my experiment, I gave every Serbian team 20 facilities in first division (playable league btw), gave Slovenia 100 youth rating and 10000 reputation (Serbia already had 100 youth rating) and gave Bosnia 200 youth rating. I'll monitor how they change.

Also, I've implemented a dynamic youth rating for my league, for my successes in World Cup and Champions League, I rolled a random between 70 and 150, rolled a 77 so Hungary's youth rating is now 77. Whenever I reach a champions league quarter finals I'll roll between currentrating and currentrating+5, if I reach semi's currentrating and currentrating+10, if I reach finals currentrating and currentrating+20, and if I win, currentrating and currentrating+50.

If SI won't give me dynamic youth rating, I will.

[woodsy1983]

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

Can you tell me where or who has the technical ability nowadays in England???

Because the more I see them playing, the more I think they have excellent positioning, defending and set pieces. But offensively they are very limited in what they can offer. A dribble here and there and a power 9 like Kane to push them in, I don't see anything "technical" there.

Argentina, Brazil, Spain, France even Italy they are technical... But England... Not so much.

The technical ability of England’s players has improved dramatically from the old stereotypical views. You’ve got grealish, foden, mount, Phillips, Bellingham just to name a few off the top of my head.

if you think Kane is just someone to push them in then I suggest you watch his all round game and the types of goals he scores (current premier league form excepted)

[Sharkn20]

6 minutes ago, Invector said:

I'm here to provide a little info about this.

I'm in 2039 with Diosgyör from Hungarian 2nd division, normally Hungarian teams are bad compared to other European teams, barely any presence in European Competitions. Starting from 2026/2027, I have started having success on the European arena, won an UEFA 2 cup, then played Quarter Finals in UEFA Cup, then in 2036 I lost at Quarter Finals in Champions League to Liverpool, then in 2037 again to Liverpool but Semi Finals this time, and in 2038 again in Semi Finals but this time to Bayer Leverkusen.

My club's coefficient is 8th in Europe, just between Man Utd and Borussia Dortmund.

I also started managing Hungary in 2037 and won THE WORLD CUP with Hungary in 2038. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

Since many years I've enjoyed 20 facilities, youth recruitment and stuff.

But, Hungary's youth rating has improved from 68 to 69.

I'm running an experiment now, I've picked Serbia, Bosnia and Slovenia for my experiment, I gave every Serbian team 20 facilities in first division (playable league btw), gave Slovenia 100 youth rating and 10000 reputation (Serbia already had 100 youth rating) and gave Bosnia 200 youth rating. I'll monitor how they change.

Also, I've implemented a dynamic youth rating for my league, for my successes in World Cup and Champions League, I rolled a random between 70 and 150, rolled a 77 so Hungary's youth rating is now 77. Whenever I reach a champions league quarter finals I'll roll between currentrating and currentrating+5, if I reach semi's currentrating and currentrating+10, if I reach finals currentrating and currentrating+20, and if I win, currentrating and currentrating+50.

If SI won't give me dynamic youth rating, I will.

YR changes are tied to National team's performance only.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Sharkn20

[Invector]

1 minute ago, Sharkn20 said:

YR changes are tied to National team's performance only.

Excuse me sir but I've already told you that I've won the freaking world cup with Hungary, what more do I need to do to improve the youth rating, even by one point?

Ecuador won the 2034 World Cup, and their YR is the same, hasn't improved or worsened.

I think YR is not tied to National Teams AT ALL.

[Sharkn20]

2 minutes ago, woodsy1983 said:

The technical ability of England’s players has improved dramatically from the old stereotypical views. You’ve got grealish, foden, mount, Phillips, Bellingham just to name a few off the top of my head.

if you think Kane is just someone to push them in then I suggest you watch his all round game and the types of goals he scores (current premier league form excepted)

You might want to review older videos too, I don't see much diference between Grelish and Michael Owen or Keane with Shearer.

I would say the only outlet England had in the last 50 years is Foden, hence the "dramatical" change hasn't happened.

But that's just my opinion, you can obviously feel different about it.

[Sharkn20]

3 minutes ago, Invector said:

Excuse me sir but I've already told you that I've won the freaking world cup with Hungary, what more do I need to do to improve the youth rating, even by one point?

Ecuador won the 2034 World Cup, and their YR is the same, hasn't improved or worsened.

I think YR is not tied to National Teams AT ALL.

As everything in football manager, changes happen after consistent results.

Looking forward to see what happens in 20 years of Hungary winning the World Cup in all editions. And European Championships. And Nations League Tournament.

I bet you will find significant progression then.

[woodsy1983]

6 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

You might want to review older videos too, I don't see much diference between Grelish and Michael Owen or Keane with Shearer.

I would say the only outlet England had in the last 50 years is Foden, hence the "dramatical" change hasn't happened.

But that's just my opinion, you can obviously feel different about it.

You’ve named a former balon d’or winner and the premier leagues highest ever goal scorer. Not the best examples for how England players are technically poor.

 

[Invector]

8 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

As everything in football manager, changes happen after consistent results.

Looking forward to see what happens in 20 years of Hungary winning the World Cup in all editions. And European Championships. And Nations League Tournament.

I bet you will find significant progression then.

I think you are implying that in order to raise Hungary's youth rating from 69 to 70, Hungary needs to do more than winning the World Cup?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Invector

[Sharkn20]

31 minutes ago, Invector said:

I think you are implying that in order to raise Hungary's youth rating from 69 to 70, Hungary needs to do more than winning the World Cup?

I am not implying it, I'm saying it, that just one trophy shouldn't change the whole World structure, and if it did, I would be very disappointed with SI.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Sharkn20

[dannyfc]

4 hours ago, Invector said:

Excuse me sir but I've already told you that I've won the freaking world cup with Hungary, what more do I need to do to improve the youth rating, even by one point?

Ecuador won the 2034 World Cup, and their YR is the same, hasn't improved or worsened.

I think YR is not tied to National Teams AT ALL.

As a counter point, if Ecuador are winning the World Cup, do Youth Ratings even matter?

[talc25]

3 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

I am not implying it, I'm saying it, that just one trophy shouldn't change the whole World structure, and if it did, I would be very disappointed with SI.

I wonder wich World Cup did Belgium win to change the world structure that wound them up in the FIFA ranking nº1 spot and very well rated in FM and IRL, with continuous talent coming through. And it's not like they had a huge following for football as a country internally. 

[Invector]

4 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Realistically why should Ecuador winning the 2034 World Cup affect the 14 to 16 year olds from that country? I'm currently in my 14th season and was for a long time disappointed and almost panicking that my Latvia hadn't seen an improvement at all, but I didn't do anything of note until the 5th season, which means around now is when I should realistically see the result of more 5-6 year olds beginning football and developing into regens in my save. And this season for the first time my youth rating as increased from 63 to 64. 

Now this is me being unusually optimistic, but hard to argue with the logic. My own testing also started showing exponential changes around the 13-15 seasons into the save, so I'm expecting to see that number increase more rapidly going forward. 

Turkey got 3rd place in 2002 and there was a huge rush among people to sign their kids for football academies.

How else are you going to make youth ratings dynamic?

For almost everyone's saves, Belgium and Germany have seen increase, some of the time England Scotland and France also increase, and other countries stay on normal level or even decrease. It seems random, expect for Belgium and Germany.

1 hour ago, dannyfc said:

As a counter point, if Ecuador are winning the World Cup, do Youth Ratings even matter?

If you wanted pickles in your burger and it didn't have pickles, but you still ate your hamburger, do pickles even matter? We were promised a dynamic youth rating and it seems random except for a select number of countries, and how well a manager does in a club doesn't matter at all, then what is the point of dynamic youth rating anyway?

I swear some of you come up with these counter-arguments just to anger people, because it doesn't even make sense half the time.

I want a nation-building save and we were promised dynamic youth ratings, I wanted Hungary to start producing another Puskas, now I think the game is lame because no matter what I do, the youth rating will stay as low as 69.

Sometimes I think they deliberately don't deliver so we buy the editor and edit the youth ratings and such ourselves.

[talc25]

27 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Yeah, so Turkish teams should see an improvement in their youth intakes around 2010 then. Not in 2003. Youth Rating affects 14-16 year olds. For it to maintain any sort of realism the changes to them must be delayed by at least a few years. 

Some transparency would be nice though. England is at 126 in my save, up 3 from when they started dominating European football by this logic, but why they decreased so hard in the first place I can't make sense of. Especially because it's not consistent with my test saves. 

You have numbers above showing inconsistency and decreases, even when the nations are sucessfull in the period. That argument is moronic. Even more, when Andorra win a World Cup in 2022, 2026 and a Euro in 2024 and by 2036 they haven't had no change at all. Taking into account that it would take time, at least 2 or 3 seasons for the new youths to be affect, that would make sense after all, it's criminal that in 10 years after 2 worlds and a euro no change happened at all. And some countries decreased, even while being successfull. It does not take 10 years for a nation to be successfull btw. You saw the rise of the German NT squad by 2016, but they were dominating at youth level way before that after the revamp of their youth academies, wich is the issue here. The players take time from becoming decent prospects ate 15/16/17 to world beaters, but it doesn't take that long for a 12 or 13 year long to show promise when training everyday in a decent setup, and that's what we expect. Success affects dynamic youth ratings, but it should and cannot take 50 years for something to matter in the game.

[Invector]

57 minutes ago, talc25 said:

when Andorra win a World Cup in 2022, 2026 and a Euro in 2024 and by 2036 they haven't had no change at all

Then national teams don't effect youth rating at all.

58 minutes ago, talc25 said:

but it should and cannot take 50 years for something to matter in the game

I think it should be like reputation, just calculated and reflected right after a season ends. I don't have to play in Hungary for 50 years to see it's youth rating raise from 68 to 100, it's way too slow.

[talc25]

3 minutes ago, Invector said:

Then national teams don't effect youth rating at all.

I think it should be like reputation, just calculated and reflected right after a season ends. I don't have to play in Hungary for 50 years to see it's youth rating raise from 68 to 100, it's way too slow.

Club level F.C. Andorra count towards the spanish league, and it didn't improve at all as well, despite the success. It's lack of information that's the issue here, they aren't telling us what affects what or if it's even working correctly...