Defending and counter attacking

[FulchesterFred]

Hi 
I play with a relatively successful 41221 formation in control possession. Attacking IFs and a deep lying CF. 4th in my league.

whenever I play deep with a fluid or direct counter-attack, with preset game tactics all that happens is I concede a lot of chances and goals. Recently I played 5-3-2 with WBs. Fluid counter attack. Simply used the pre set tactic in the game. I was playing away to a mid table side playing 442. I’m not saying I should have won but the match was diabolical. Chance after chance for the opposition which they eventually put away (3 in total). Not one decent counter by my side.

if I’d stick with our control possession 41221 I know the game would have been more even. This is one of a whole bunch of examples of everything falling apart when defending deep,and countering. I think FM fails in this as it doesn’t seem to restrict the number of opposition chances. 
 

like I say I was playing a plug in and play tactic and have done all the time. Predominantly works when pressing and attacking. Always fails when defending and countering.

any suggestions welcome.

 

[Jack722]

IMO the counter presets are broken. The reasons why I think this are both to do with the team instructions, and the formations + roles. For example, if you look at the direct counter 433 preset:

Firstly, using a higher tempo and quick GK distribution doesn't make a counter attack any more likely. What it does do is ask your players to move the ball quickly throughout the game. your probably playing on the counter because your team isn't great, or you're holding on to a lead. This means that teams are probably going to be pressing you high, the last thing you want in this situation is your defenders and GK playing quick, one touch passing before losing the ball. Even if you don't lose the ball, defending for most of the game takes a toll on your concentration. your players are going to tire out if you don't allow your defence to take a quick break by holding onto the ball when there isn't much of a counter opportunity.

What does control how often you counter is your mentality. VA means that you're pretty much gonna play the ball directly and quickly whether a counter is on or off, whereas VD means you're probably not going to counter even if you have an attacking overload. As well as whether you select the counter TI, and how many players you leave forward.

Secondly, if your defending deep, it hardly makes any sense to play with three forwards, your central midfielders and fullbacks are likely going to get overloaded. IMO the best shapes for counter / defending is any tactic with two or fewer players in AM / ST positions. As well as this, the best defensive teams are almost always compact. A 433 does not give you as much compactness as, say, a 4141 or 442, no matter where your LOE and DLine are. And even if you do select the lowest possible LOE to improve your compactness, you have to be aware that any striker on attack duty isn't going to track back at all. You might want this so that he stays up for a counter attack, but it's worth being aware as you might not be anywhere near as compact as you think you are. Because of this, when I'm playing defensively, I almost never play my strikers on attack duty, as this is the only way you're going to be able to get all your players behind the ball to see out a win.

[Jack722]

This is my go-to tactic for when I want to stay a bit more cautious and play on the counter:

I'm no expert, and I'm not getting amazing results, but my board's goal was to avoid relegation and I've got some decent results at home to Man United and away at Leicester:

The main things I focused on for the tactic was compactness (two banks of four + lower LOE) and leaving one player up to start counters (Watkins). Then, when I'm happy with the current score at around 70 minutes, I switch to this:

Here we stay even more compact, and also force every player to drop back and defend in a 442 shape, as Watkins is now playing on a support duty. And perhaps in the last 5 or so minutes, I take off Barkley for a DM or a third CB, before dropping the defensive line and closing down less, so that we have an even more rigid shape, whilst sacrificing pretty much all threat of a counter attack.

Hope this helps.

[Zemahh]

7 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

whenever I play deep with a fluid or direct counter-attack, with preset game tactics all that happens is I concede a lot of chances and goals. Recently I played 5-3-2 with WBs. Fluid counter attack. Simply used the pre set tactic in the game.

Arguably, presets are far from optimal. They tend to be full of tactical overkills and should only be looked at as examples of what kind of setup could be used for certain playing styles, rather than finished recipes. For example, most of the defensive presets tend to use an extremely low block combined with a bunch of Instructions making your team very passive, which can result in user getting completely overwhelmed and unable to cross the halfway line.

There's definitely better ways to set up counter-attacking tactics, there's a bunch of guides on this forum. @engamohd has a fantastic thread on understanding different playing styles:

If you want to continue using presets, more offensive ones tend to be a safer choice (e.g. Control Possession, Gegenpress). That's mostly down to the fact that playing on the front foot is inherently less risky than purposefully inviting pressure onto yourself and defending close to your own goal, where every mistake can be punished immediately.

[Robson 07]

Quick solution for you to try with the preset tactics.

Change the overall mentality but keeping the rest the same.  I suspect you may find those counter attack presets (both the fluid one and the direct one) start to seem a lot better, and may even play as you would hope then to,  if used on Positive or Attacking.

[FulchesterFred]

47 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

IMO the counter presets are broken. The reasons why I think this are both to do with the team instructions, and the formations + roles. For example, if you look at the direct counter 433 preset:

Firstly, using a higher tempo and quick GK distribution doesn't make a counter attack any more likely. What it does do is ask your players to move the ball quickly throughout the game. your probably playing on the counter because your team isn't great, or you're holding on to a lead. This means that teams are probably going to be pressing you high, the last thing you want in this situation is your defenders and GK playing quick, one touch passing before losing the ball. Even if you don't lose the ball, defending for most of the game takes a toll on your concentration. your players are going to tire out if you don't allow your defence to take a quick break by holding onto the ball when there isn't much of a counter opportunity.

What does control how often you counter is your mentality. VA means that you're pretty much gonna play the ball directly and quickly whether a counter is on or off, whereas VD means you're probably not going to counter even if you have an attacking overload. As well as whether you select the counter TI, and how many players you leave forward.

Secondly, if your defending deep, it hardly makes any sense to play with three forwards, your central midfielders and fullbacks are likely going to get overloaded. IMO the best shapes for counter / defending is any tactic with two or fewer players in AM / ST positions. As well as this, the best defensive teams are almost always compact. A 433 does not give you as much compactness as, say, a 4141 or 442, no matter where your LOE and DLine are. And even if you do select the lowest possible LOE to improve your compactness, you have to be aware that any striker on attack duty isn't going to track back at all. You might want this so that he stays up for a counter attack, but it's worth being aware as you might not be anywhere near as compact as you think you are. Because of this, when I'm playing defensively, I almost never play my strikers on attack duty, as this is the only way you're going to be able to get all your players behind the ball to see out a win.

Brilliant and insightful answer. 
there are a few contradictions in the game and tempo is one of them. 
I switched my defensive formation to a 442 and conceded far fewer chances (still lost but hey ho). The point to a defensive block is surely to minimise opposition chances. Eg IRL teams playing Man U go deep and they struggle to break them down: in FM going deep rarely seems to squeeze space but your advice has helped.

[FulchesterFred]

29 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Arguably, presets are far from optimal. They tend to be full of tactical overkills and should only be looked at as examples of what kind of setup could be used for certain playing styles, rather than finished recipes. For example, most of the defensive presets tend to use an extremely low block combined with a bunch of Instructions making your team very passive, which can result in user getting completely overwhelmed and unable to cross the halfway line.

There's definitely better ways to set up counter-attacking tactics, there's a bunch of guides on this forum. @engamohd has a fantastic thread on understanding different playing styles:

If you want to continue using presets, more offensive ones tend to be a safer choice (e.g. Control Possession, Gegenpress). That's mostly down to the fact that playing on the front foot is inherently less risky than purposefully inviting pressure onto yourself and defending close to your own goal, where every mistake can be punished immediately

got that. Cheers. I’m beginning to understand what does and doesn’t need work.

[FulchesterFred]

23 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Quick solution for you to try with the preset tactics.

Change the overall mentality but keeping the rest the same.  I suspect you may find those counter attack presets (both the fluid one and the direct one) start to seem a lot better, and may even play as you would hope then to,  if used on Positive or Attacking.

I’ll try.

[Jack722]

18 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

Brilliant and insightful answer. 
there are a few contradictions in the game and tempo is one of them. 
I switched my defensive formation to a 442 and conceded far fewer chances (still lost but hey ho). The point to a defensive block is surely to minimise opposition chances. Eg IRL teams playing Man U go deep and they struggle to break them down: in FM going deep rarely seems to squeeze space but your advice has helped.

Wanted to experiment in my next game by parking the bus for the full 90 and playing for a 0-0 away at Chelsea. We lost 2-0, but considering they scored there first goal in stoppage time, and didn't create a CCC, I reckon we did about as well as we could have using the system.

I don't really think it's every a good idea to park the bus for the full 90 unless you're in some sort of cup game as a complete underdog. 

[Robson 07]

Ok great @FulchesterFred, it's just a suggestion.

When you see lower or much lower line of engagement and you combine that with positive or attacking mentality it may play more how you are expecting to counterattack football.

Conversely when you see higher or much higher line of engagement (for example Tiki Taka) and combine with a lower mentality like cautious you might get a more aggressive press with possession football.

The roles and duties, plus the TI's don't look wildly wrong to me in the the presets, it's a simplified adjustment.

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

like I say I was playing a plug in and play tactic

Wait a minute... Plug'n'play or preset? These are not the same thing. Preset tactics are default tactics offered by the game itself, whereas plug'n'play are tactics created by "professional" tactical creators to be downloaded by those interested. 

[FulchesterFred]

57 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Wait a minute... Plug'n'play or preset? These are not the same thing. Preset tactics are default tactics offered by the game itself, whereas plug'n'play are tactics created by "professional" tactical creators to be downloaded by those interested. 

Preset. New to this so lingo can be wrong. Everyone been helpful and understood my question.

[Tsuru]

11 horas atrás, FulchesterFred disse:

This is one of a whole bunch of examples of everything falling apart when defending deep,and countering. I think FM fails in this as it doesn’t seem to restrict the number of opposition chances.

The presets are awful and they look like designed by a 5 year-old child, but I think this issue you mentioned has to do with the difficulty of counter attacking, specially with weaker and smaller teams. Absorb pressure and strike quickly sometimes may look easier but I don´t think it is. You need very good defence players that are able to absorb pressure during 90 minutes, a very disciplined midfield that is really good on defending and has good pass ability to take the chances that appear, and excellent strikers which are quick/strong and know how to score on the few opportunities they will have.

So your team´s mistake margin is very, very tight. If the defenders miss, the other team will probably score. If your midfield does, they will put the defence over pressure and/or give possession away to an opposition that is hungry for the ball. And if your strikers miss, you won´t score and never know when another opportunity will arrive. Almost everybody should keep concentrated during 90 minutes and work very well together. 

Let´s say, if you play a pressing 4231 and your team does a mistake and concede, you can keep attacking and try to score more goals. If your team does a mistake on a counter strategy you will need a plan B with players that were not hired to attack and be proactive all the time. This is far, far more difficult for me.

So I think that finding players adequate for counter strategies sometimes is far much more difficult than the other way, specially when we play LLM.

I know sometimes we turn to counter strategies when using smaller teams, but I really don´t think it´s easier this way. If I could give you an advice, sometimes when you don´t have a very good team you should create a balanced, simple and good attacking strategy and go for it (of course not an all out attack or something crazy like that), trying to use your players the best way you can. You will loose anyway, you will concede anyway, so why not let this happen when you are trying to win?

Just my point of view, sometimes we overcomplicate trying not to loose and forget what really matters.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Tsuru

[FulchesterFred]

1 hour ago, Tsuru said:

The presets are awful and they look like designed by a 5 year-old child, but I think this issue you mentioned has to do with the difficulty of counter attacking, specially with weaker and smaller teams. Absorb pressure and strike quickly sometimes may look easier but I don´t think it is. You need very good defence players that are able to absorb pressure during 90 minutes, a very disciplined midfield that is really good on defending and has good pass ability to take the chances that appear, and excellent strikers which are quick/strong and know how to score on the few opportunities they will have.

So your team´s mistake margin is very, very tight. If the defenders miss, the other team will probably score. If your midfield does, they will put the defence over pressure and/or give possession away to an opposition that is hungry for the ball. And if your strikers miss, you won´t score and never know when another opportunity will arrive. Almost everybody should keep concentrated during 90 minutes and work very well together. 

Let´s say, if you play a pressing 4231 and your team does a mistake and concede, you can keep attacking and try to score more goals. If your team does a mistake on a counter strategy you will need a plan B with players that were not hired to attack and be proactive all the time. This is far, far more difficult for me.

So I think that finding players adequate for counter strategies sometimes is far much more difficult than the other way, specially when we play LLM.

I know sometimes we turn to counter strategies when using smaller teams, but I really don´t think it´s easier this way. If I could give you an advice, sometimes when you don´t have a very good team you should create a balanced, simple and good attacking strategy and go for it (of course not an all out attack or something crazy like that), trying to use your players the best way you can. You will loose anyway, you will concede anyway, so why not let this happen when you are trying to win?

Just my point of view, sometimes we overcomplicate trying not to loose and forget what really matters.

more great advice. I guess managers like Allardyce and hodgson drill their players like no other so it’s only right that the defending tactic should be difficult. Maybe if that’s the strategy I should always focus on defence in training.

i think an earlier point shone a light on FM discrepancies. Tempo in particular. Is counter attacking only going to work on a high tempo? But if I’m playing attacking tiki taka I want a high tempo too. IRL How many times do managers say post match I asked the players to up the tempo at HT. a slow tempo doesnt represent quality football. Slick passing and movement does that. 
I just think it’s another way FM has been left lagging in tactics and needs improvement. A redefinition of that metric will help counter attacking strategies too

[Tsuru]

18 minutos atrás, FulchesterFred disse:

more great advice. I guess managers like Allardyce and hodgson drill their players like no other so it’s only right that the defending tactic should be difficult. Maybe if that’s the strategy I should always focus on defence in training.

i think an earlier point shone a light on FM discrepancies. Tempo in particular. Is counter attacking only going to work on a high tempo? But if I’m playing attacking tiki taka I want a high tempo too. IRL How many times do managers say post match I asked the players to up the tempo at HT. a slow tempo doesnt represent quality football. Slick passing and movement does that. 
I just think it’s another way FM has been left lagging in tactics and needs improvement. A redefinition of that metric will help counter attacking strategies too

I think you need not just a good counter strategy - formation, roles/duties, instructions - but men to execute it. That is, players with adequate attributes and personalities (which we usually forget when looking for players). 

On my point of view, the Line of Engagement helped a lot on designing good counter strategies, as now they can work in almost any mentality. The most difficult part is finding the right players.

I really think it´s easier to play the game on a more proactive way, but if you have the right players the reactive one could also work too and the ME is doing it much better than before.

[FulchesterFred]

14 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I think you need not just a good counter strategy - formation, roles/duties, instructions - but men to execute it. That is, players with adequate attributes and personalities (which we usually forget when looking for players). 

On my point of view, the Line of Engagement helped a lot on designing good counter strategies, as now they can work in almost any mentality. The most difficult part is finding the right players.

I really think it´s easier to play the game on a more proactive way, but if you have the right players the reactive one could also work too and the ME is doing it much better than before.

So I understand the line of engagement....if I set to press relentlessly and I have a low block, does that mean my players will press relentlessly from the engagement line? Seems like an obvious question but I’ve always found FM to be quite oblique with disclosing information like this.

[Tsuru]

2 horas atrás, FulchesterFred disse:

So I understand the line of engagement....if I set to press relentlessly and I have a low block, does that mean my players will press relentlessly from the engagement line? Seems like an obvious question but I’ve always found FM to be quite oblique with disclosing information like this.

SI´s philosophy is "understand by watching the game and seeing what happens". Maybe they believe that, if everything was explained the game would become too easy. I don´t agree, but...

The LOE determinates the point of the pitch in which your team starts pressing when the opponent has the ball - and I think it also determinates the start positioning of your last line of players (strikers/AM/wingers). You should combine LOE with the defensive line to create team compactness, and this compactness is what makes your team more defensively solid on the current ME version.

Your team pressing is not defined just by instructions, but also by mentality, formation and roles/duties. Everything should work together to achieve the desirable effect.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Tsuru

[FulchesterFred]

7 hours ago, Tsuru said:

SI´s philosophy is "understand by watching the game and seeing what happens". Maybe they believe that, if everything was explained the game would become too easy. I don´t agree, but...

The LOE determinates the point of the pitch in which your team starts pressing when the opponent has the ball - and I think it also determinates the start positioning of your last line of players (strikers/AM/wingers). You should combine LOE with the defensive line to create team compactness, and this compactness is what makes your team more defensively solid on the current ME version.

Your team pressing is not defined just by instructions, but also by mentality, formation and roles/duties. Everything should work together to achieve the desirable effect.

Ha. Strange theory from SI, I mean I know the rules of chess inside out but I ain’t challenging Kasparov anytime soon! I think you might be being generous to SI. I think the ambiguity betrays something else!

it’s great someone is taking the time to explain this. Cheers!

So I guess the more attacking the more pressing. 4231 will press more than 541 etc. I also assume a further apart LOE and DL works with a more direct style, faster bigger players and more compact is better for shorter quicker passes. 

next I’ll ask about marking..;-)

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

I also assume a further apart LOE and DL works with a more direct style, faster bigger players and more compact is better for shorter quicker passes

Not really. A good level of compactness is important for any style of play. 

The question of direct vs. shorter passing styles is more about your distribution of roles and duties than defensive compactness. 

[FulchesterFred]

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not really. A good level of compactness is important for any style of play. 

The question of direct vs. shorter passing styles is more about your distribution of roles and duties than defensive compactness. 

Cool cheers ED. Sorry to be so persistent but if compactness is key to any successful system why have the option to distance the LOEand DL?

When would you stretch them apart?

TY

[Freakiie]

6 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

Cool cheers ED. Sorry to be so persistent but if compactness is key to any successful system why have the option to distance the LOEand DL?

When would you stretch them apart?

TY

Pretty much never. Stretching them means massive space in between the lines for your opposition to exploit, which also makes it much easier to play out of any potential press and just disjoints your teams defensive team work as each line will be pushed wider apart so they won't be able to support each other.

Why you can do it? Because both options are needed, but just like many other options, if applied wrongly will backfire. Kinda like how you can technically play very wide width and very short passing, both options you want to have access to, but not options you'd want to combine.

[Jack722]

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

Cool cheers ED. Sorry to be so persistent but if compactness is key to any successful system why have the option to distance the LOEand DL?

When would you stretch them apart?

TY

being compact makes you harder to play through due to the reduced space. But that also means that there's going to be more space behind and / or infront of your players for a through ball or a long ball over the top for a 1v1. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

Sorry to be so persistent but if compactness is key to any successful system why have the option to distance the LOEand DL?

It's not necessarily key for success of a tactic, although it is a very important factor in general. It's key for defensive solidity in tandem with the setup of roles and duties. Therefore, having an optimal level of compactness is welcome both in defensive and more attack-minded styles of play. The main difference between these styles is not related to compactness but the type of defensive block you set up (i.e. low block, high block or medium block).

Another important thing about compactness - too much compactness can be as harmful as too little. Which implies that there are actually 3 basic levels of defensive compactness:

- too little/loose (when the distance between DL and LOE is too big) - bad 

- too much/very compact (when the DL/LOE distance is too small) - again bad 

- and optimal (when the distance is just right = DL is just 1 notch higher than LOE) - good 

P.S: I am intentionally simplifying these explanations in order to make it as easy as possible for you to understand basic concepts. However, there are many other factors and subtle nuances that play an important part in the art of tactical creation. 

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

When would you stretch them apart?

If by "stretching them apart" you are alluding to poor compactness (i.e. too much distance between the lines), then my personal answer is never. 

Keep also in mind that the type of formation also has a degree of impact on compactness (for example, a formation with a DM is inherently more compact than one without). 

[FulchesterFred]

Cheers guys. Tactics eyes are being opened!! I really do wish SI explained things more because it’s still a game and not football and, therefore, will have its own idiosyncrasies.

but it’s great that forums like this exist. And shows the community spirit.

IRL Man C are, clearly this year, the exemplary PL tactic model. You rarely get another big club manager not trying to emulate their very simple philosophy....ie make the pitch as big as possible with the ball and as small as possible without it. The suggestion is that they play incredibly wide in possession and will surround the opponent when they’ve got the ball. Does this fit into FM parameters? @Freakiieyou said that playing wide and short passing isn’t compatible but surely that’s how Citeh play?

understand I’m moving away fromDL etc now but it’s an interesting conversation and building my tactics picture

[Freakiie]

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

Cheers guys. Tactics eyes are being opened!! I really do wish SI explained things more because it’s still a game and not football and, therefore, will have its own idiosyncrasies.

but it’s great that forums like this exist. And shows the community spirit.

IRL Man C are, clearly this year, the exemplary PL tactic model. You rarely get another big club manager not trying to emulate their very simple philosophy....ie make the pitch as big as possible with the ball and as small as possible without it. The suggestion is that they play incredibly wide in possession and will surround the opponent when they’ve got the ball. Does this fit into FM parameters? @Freakiieyou said that playing wide and short passing isn’t compatible but surely that’s how Citeh play?

understand I’m moving away fromDL etc now but it’s an interesting conversation and building my tactics picture

As I'm not following City I can't really judge how exactly they play or how you would emulate this in FM. Although there is a thread on this bit further down in this section discussing Pep's style. Looking at some of the general movements from City's play in that thread though, I wouldn't call that shorter passing, but the guy doing the tactic recreation disagrees with me on that part (and his tactic works great, so what do I know! )

As far as playing very wide, yet very short passing, the first instruction will naturally increase the spaces between your players, which means that the extremely short passing instruction will limit the number of passing options a player has on the ball. The famous "my players keep hoofing it, despite my extremely short passing, play out of defense and shorter passing PIs!!!" is often a result of cutting passing ranges to such an extreme degree that the defenders basically have no options within their "allowed" passing range, so they just hoof it. Personally I wouldn't combine these two instructions in their extremes, although I can understand going slightly shorter on more attacking mentalities to counter their inherent more direct passing style if you want a more possession based style.

[Experienced Defender]

Tactical replication of Pep's City is probably the most controversial topic in the forum, as everyone has their own theory based on personal perceptions. For me personally, the best replication of "Pepball" so far is Rashidi's Liquid 4123 (introduced back in FM19). 

[bibird.]

13 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

Sorry to be so persistent but if compactness is key to any successful system why have the option to distance the LOEand DL?

It gives you the option to play different blocks on different mentalities. If we weren't able to alter the DL and LOE then the mentality would define where on the pitch your defensive block would be and you'd be stuck with that. For example, all Very Defensive tactics would be low blocks and all Very Attacking tactics would be high blocks.

In one of my saves I play a high block (Much Higher DL/Higher LOE) with a Cautious mentality, as my players are poor technically, but my defenders are quick. This works to mitigate any weaknesses in my players attributes.

The thread that @Zemahh mentioned further up this thread gives some good examples on how you can combine mentality with DL and LOE.

[Tsuru]

Em 02/04/2021 em 18:47, FulchesterFred disse:

Ha. Strange theory from SI, I mean I know the rules of chess inside out but I ain’t challenging Kasparov anytime soon! I think you might be being generous to SI. I think the ambiguity betrays something else!

They are the developers, they think that way and more than once it has been very clear that they won´t change their mind. So we can accept, understand the game´s logic, play and have fun, or we can play anything else. 

During the past 4 years I have been playing this game again (I had stopped on FM 12) and I have been complaining about FM´s logic which I think is not intuitive, but it didn´t change anything and the game has been working the same way. So I decided to ask for help here on the forums, read some nice online guides, understand its logic and have fun. It is much easier than complain about something that I cannot do anything about.

Regarding the LOE/DL I think other players answered you very well. Once more, it doesn´t matter if we think that a more spaced team would be more suitable to a direct style - intuitively I would say yes, it is - but it doesn´t work like this on FM and we will be so frustrated trying it. Better to play the game the way it really works.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Tsuru

[Experienced Defender]

42 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

They are the developers, they think that way and more than once it has been very clear that they won´t change their mind. So we can accept, understand the game´s logic, play and have fun, or we can play anything else

Absolutely. None is forcing anyone to play FM (or any game) if they don't like it. I love it and for me it's the only video game worth playing. But we are all different people and therefore have different passions.

FM is definitely not a game for everyone, even though everyone is allowed to play it 

[Tsuru]

17 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Absolutely. None is forcing anyone to play FM (or any game) if they don't like it. I love it and for me it's the only video game worth playing. But we are all different people and therefore have different passions.

FM is definitely not a game for everyone, even though everyone is allowed to play it 

And so it is. I love that game so much and regarding my current time is also the only worth playing. So I decided to adapt and understand the game´s logic even if I don´t completely agree with it or I don´t share the same thinking of the development team. And I have no regrets about this decision  

Edited April 4, 2021 by Tsuru

[FulchesterFred]

1 hour ago, Tsuru said:

They are the developers, they think that way and more than once it has been very clear that they won´t change their mind. So we can accept, understand the game´s logic, play and have fun, or we can play anything else. 

During the past 4 years I have been playing this game again (I had stopped on FM 12) and I have been complaining about FM´s logic which I think is not intuitive, but it didn´t change anything and the game has been working the same way. So I decided to ask for help here on the forums, read some nice online guides, understand its logic and have fun. It is much easier than complain about something that I cannot do anything about.

Regarding the LOE/DL I think other players answered you very well. Once more, it doesn´t matter if we think that a more spaced team would be more suitable to a direct style - intuitively I would say yes, it is - but it doesn´t work like this on FM and we will be so frustrated trying it. Better to play the game the way it really 

12 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

And so it is. I love that game so much and regarding my current time is also the only worth playing. So I decided to adapt and understand the game´s logic even if I don´t completely agree with it or I don´t share the same thinking of the development team. And I have no regrets about this decision  

Which is a great attitude to have and all power to you and those who enjoy it. I’m slightly more circumspect. Wish I could throw myself in with abandon as I used to love the game and now I feel like I play it out of habit. Things like the LOE and DLs logic, if not intuitive,  should be shared with the players. We pay to play it. So help us out SI is my opinion.

As you’re so helpful let me ask about marking and pressing. Does always mark and always press on individual instructions mean that player will be literally marked/ pressed anywhere on the pitch? If I’m gegenpressing should I be always pressing individuals across the entire opponents team? I guess what I’m asking is.....how do you think these instructions are best utilised?

if I understand these instructions better i will enjoy the game more. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[Tsuru]

17 horas atrás, FulchesterFred disse:

Which is a great attitude to have and all power to you and those who enjoy it. I’m slightly more circumspect. Wish I could throw myself in with abandon as I used to love the game and now I feel like I play it out of habit. Things like the LOE and DLs logic, if not intuitive,  should be shared with the players. We pay to play it. So help us out SI is my opinion.

As you’re so helpful let me ask about marking and pressing. Does always mark and always press on individual instructions mean that player will be literally marked/ pressed anywhere on the pitch? If I’m gegenpressing should I be always pressing individuals across the entire opponents team? I guess what I’m asking is.....how do you think these instructions are best utilised?

if I understand these instructions better i will enjoy the game more. 

There is an area here on the forums in which you can post suggestions to be directly analyzed by SI. So you can suggest something like a more intuitive ME.

About marking and pressing, I don´t know. I usually play with lower league teams, so I try to create focused tactical systems (that is, specific style of play) but on the easiest possible way, using mentality as a starting point and with very few instructions.

[CEVR1996]

Personally, I´m not a fan of possession based football, I don´t find it visually appealing and I much rather see teams playing fast paced transitions from defence to attack that seek to exploit gaps behind the opposition´s back line from the moment possession is regained. I know that if you intend to play in such way and make it become somewhat effective, you need to invite the other team deep into your own half and soak up the pressure, patiently waiting for a chance to counter whilst keeping a compact and well structured defensive shape but I´m not quite sure how this can best be replicated in FM. From my experience with the game, allowing the opposition to have most of the ball and spend a great amount of time in their final third is a receipt for disaster since your defenders don´t seem to have good positional awareness and are far too passive when engaging the ball carrier, regardless of the instructions given, meaning you´ll be battered relentlessly into an inevitable, painful to watch defeat.

 

Nothing gives me more satisfaction in this sport than seeing a perfectly measured through pass into the the space ahead of a quick foward who´s making a run behind the defense, I just love that, so I´d really like to learn which tactical steps need to be taken in order to build a tactic that specifically aims to produce this brand of football. Perhaps the most noticeable example for what I´m striving for is Leicester´s Premier League winning side from the 2015/2016 season under Claudio Ranieri.

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said:

Personally, I´m not a fan of possession based football, I don´t find it visually appealing and I much rather see teams playing fast paced transitions from defence to attack that seek to exploit gaps behind the opposition´s back line from the moment possession is regained. I know that if you intend to play in such way and make it become somewhat effective, you need to invite the other team deep into your own half and soak up the pressure, patiently waiting for a chance to counter whilst keeping a compact and well structured defensive shape but I´m not quite sure how this can best be replicated in FM. From my experience with the game, allowing the opposition to have most of the ball and spend a great amount of time in their final third is a receipt for disaster since your defenders don´t seem to have good positional awareness and are far too passive when engaging the ball carrier, regardless of the instructions given, meaning you´ll be battered relentlessly into an inevitable, painful to watch defeat.

 

Nothing gives me more satisfaction in this sport than seeing a perfectly measured through pass into the the space ahead of a quick foward who´s making a run behind the defense, I just love that, so I´d really like to learn which tactical steps need to be taken in order to build a tactic that specifically aims to produce this brand of football. Perhaps the most noticeable example for what I´m striving for is Leicester´s Premier League winning side from the 2015/2016 season under Claudio Ranieri.

 

 

If your aim is to win the title/trophy by playing a defensive style of football as your main (or only) tactical style, then it's highly unlikely to happen. After all, keep in mind that the Leicester side you mentioned was much more of an exception than the rule. 

[CEVR1996]

31 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

If your aim is to win the title/trophy by playing a defensive style of football as your main (or only) tactical style, then it's highly unlikely to happen. After all, keep in mind that the Leicester side you mentioned was much more of an exception than the rule. 

My aim is mainly to play a style of football that is simple, effective and pleasent to the eye. Winning titles is more of a secondary concern, as crazy as this may sound. I´ve found myself growing bored of a save on a fair few occasions despite having won titles or at least massively overachieved expectations merely because I didn´t enjoyed the process of watching my team play on the pitch so yeah, getting that part right is certainly of utmost importance to me.

Edited April 5, 2021 by CEVR1996

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If your aim is to win the title/trophy by playing a defensive style of football as your main (or only) tactical style, then it's highly unlikely to happen. After all, keep in mind that the Leicester side you mentioned was much more of an exception than the rule. 

Haven't tried, but back then that worked well enough. At least until your reputation would rise and more and more AI would play defensively / shut the shop (even the bigger dogs... FM AI). I also went with an attacking mentality, as that is more suited to quick transitions from back to front (dropped naturally much deeper though than its default, plus encouraged a more direct game than its default). Reckon that's still one of the more common misconceptions to this day (UI issue if you ask me, plus "mentality" naturally isn't quite a football concept but a fairly abstract FM concept).

However, the AI on that release also helped back then in that if you scored the 1-0, not only went they more aggressive with ultra high lines to exploit for fast forwards such as Vardy.

nnwB8V5.jpg (1228×812) (imgur.com)

They also oft had but a single player kept back to protect their own attacking set pieces.  

CGw92DK.jpg (1204×798) (imgur.com)

Was top of the league by December with the worst pass completion, the best shot conversion (closing in on the 20%, that is roughly every sixth shot average being a goal) and, had FM dealt in any such stat, the most shots conceded average of any team in the top of the table (Leicester likewise had won the league by conceding ~14-15 shots average). I think my role/duty setup for the defenders iin parts wasn't that different to the one in Jack's post (three defenders on defend plus a midfielder), however, I played off a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 with both wingers afair on attack.

 

XvbF1vS.jpg (935×496) (imgur.com)

coh2t5N.jpg (919×506) (imgur.com)
nbhpdCn.jpg (930×504) (imgur.com)
sOLwprt.jpg (880×333) (imgur.com)

Edited April 5, 2021 by Svenc

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, CEVR1996 said:

My aim is mainly to play a style of football that is simple, effective and pleasent to the eye. Winning titles is more of a secondary concern

Well, that is achievable. 

[Svenc]

May be worth a look. My guide to hoofball - Page 6 - Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com) 

[Zemahh]

3 hours ago, CEVR1996 said:

From my experience with the game, allowing the opposition to have most of the ball and spend a great amount of time in their final third is a receipt for disaster since your defenders don´t seem to have good positional awareness and are far too passive when engaging the ball carrier, regardless of the instructions given, meaning you´ll be battered relentlessly into an inevitable, painful to watch defeat.

I also enjoy fast-transitions football very much and my personal favourite tactic in FM is an Attacking 4-4-2 w/ low block. I find it can produce some scintillating counters and often break all kinds of scoring records against teams that give you space, however, it does start falling flat once your reputation improves to the point you're a favourite going into every match. FM is difficult in that regard, because AI tends to become very defensive very quick, it's nothing like teams in real life, where even the biggest underdogs will approach games bravely at times.

If you're interested, I documented my approach to counter-attacking here.

Since I usually manage in lower leagues, I find this style of football the easiest to climb the tiers with. The idea isn't to sit back and wait for automatically generated counters, but rather to go balls to the wall and commit plenty of men forward at every opportunity.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Zemahh

[Tsuru]

 

21 horas atrás, CEVR1996 disse:

Personally, I´m not a fan of possession based football, I don´t find it visually appealing and I much rather see teams playing fast paced transitions from defence to attack that seek to exploit gaps behind the opposition´s back line from the moment possession is regained. I know that if you intend to play in such way and make it become somewhat effective, you need to invite the other team deep into your own half and soak up the pressure, patiently waiting for a chance to counter whilst keeping a compact and well structured defensive shape but I´m not quite sure how this can best be replicated in FM. From my experience with the game, allowing the opposition to have most of the ball and spend a great amount of time in their final third is a receipt for disaster since your defenders don´t seem to have good positional awareness and are far too passive when engaging the ball carrier, regardless of the instructions given, meaning you´ll be battered relentlessly into an inevitable, painful to watch defeat.

Nothing gives me more satisfaction in this sport than seeing a perfectly measured through pass into the the space ahead of a quick foward who´s making a run behind the defense, I just love that, so I´d really like to learn which tactical steps need to be taken in order to build a tactic that specifically aims to produce this brand of football. Perhaps the most noticeable example for what I´m striving for is Leicester´s Premier League winning side from the 2015/2016 season under Claudio Ranieri.

I am also not fan of a slow possession football, but it could be a quick possession football (something FM calls "Vertical Tiki Taka"), that is, quick shorter passings. But as I am playing with a lower league team and my team does not have enough power for possession, either quick or slow would not suit it. So I am trying a "direct attack style": press upfront, recover the ball and then attack direct and quickly, using the roles/duties to reinforce the speed. I will play at least one season and then evaluate if it is doing well.

[CEVR1996]

19 horas atrás, Zemahh disse:

I also enjoy fast-transitions football very much and my personal favourite tactic in FM is an Attacking 4-4-2 w/ low block. I find it can produce some scintillating counters and often break all kinds of scoring records against teams that give you space, however, it does start falling flat once your reputation improves to the point you're a favourite going into every match. FM is difficult in that regard, because AI tends to become very defensive very quick, it's nothing like teams in real life, where even the biggest underdogs will approach games bravely at times.

If you're interested, I documented my approach to counter-attacking here.

Since I usually manage in lower leagues, I find this style of football the easiest to climb the tiers with. The idea isn't to sit back and wait for automatically generated counters, but rather to go balls to the wall and commit plenty of men forward at every opportunity.

I took a good look at your tactical documentation and was able to get some very useful insight out of it, in fact, I´ll be trying to replicate that system in my new Schalke 04 save I´ve just started. Maybe it´s not the ideal team for a full out counter attacking approach as they´re not seen as true league underdogs by the game´s standards although they most certainly appear to be irl but nonetheless, I think this could work if done correctly. The main issue here is finding affordable quick players for the wings and the striker slots which are competent in some other areas of their game such as dribbling or finishing since well, having one dimentional pace merchants probably isn´t going to accomplish all that much. This ain´t FIFA aferall...

Edited April 6, 2021 by CEVR1996

[CEVR1996]

51 minutos atrás, Tsuru disse:

 

I am also not fan of a slow possession football, but it could be a quick possession football (something FM calls "Vertical Tiki Taka"), that is, quick shorter passings. But as I am playing with a lower league team and my team does not have enough power for possession, either quick or slow would not suit it. So I am trying a "direct attack style": press upfront, recover the ball and then attack direct and quickly, using the roles/duties to reinforce the speed. I will play at least one season and then evaluate if it is doing well.

I tend to play with more established and reputable teams, never been a huge fan of lower league management, so perhaps high tempo short passing football could also produce the results I´m looking for in a team that has some technically gifted players. It might actually be a very useful plan B to have when facing more defensive minded opponents that don´t push high up the pitch as I usually struggle against those.

[Tsuru]

13 minutos atrás, CEVR1996 disse:

I tend to play with more established and reputable teams, never been a huge fan of lower league management, so perhaps high tempo short passing football could also produce the results I´m looking for in a team that has some technically gifted players. It might actually be a very useful plan B to have when facing more defensive minded opponents that don´t push high up the pitch as I usually struggle against those.

Ah, ok. Then I think it is even easier.

As a starting point, maybe Balanced or Positive Mentality + Shorter Passing + Narrow/Extremely Narrow Width (maybe Be More Expressive), Distribute to Full Backs and Centre Backs, maybe Counter-Press, Higher Defensive Line.

You can add Higher Tempo if you play on Balanced or want more quickness on Positive. I think a 4141 DM Wide or a 5212 are perfect for this kind of playstyle, then you can balance roles/duties to balance quickness, movement and possession.

[CEVR1996]

Em 06/04/2021 em 16:06, Tsuru disse:

Ah, ok. Then I think it is even easier.

As a starting point, maybe Balanced or Positive Mentality + Shorter Passing + Narrow/Extremely Narrow Width (maybe Be More Expressive), Distribute to Full Backs and Centre Backs, maybe Counter-Press, Higher Defensive Line.

You can add Higher Tempo if you play on Balanced or want more quickness on Positive. I think a 4141 DM Wide or a 5212 are perfect for this kind of playstyle, then you can balance roles/duties to balance quickness, movement and possession.

Thank you for the tips, I went with a 4-4-1-1 which I have adjusted accordingly but this will be my secondary tactic for the time being, meant to overpower substantially weaker opposition, likely lower league sides on cup games. The main one is a 4-4-2 direct counter that has been producing a good amount of one on one instances with the goalkeeper, just as I like to see but it´s rather dodgy at the back with my defense making plenty of mistakes (mistiming interceptions, giving the ball away in dangerous areas and often shying away from tackles, allowing the other team to pick out a dangerous pass), not sure how to fix this particular problem without buing a whole new defensive line.

[CEVR1996]

Em 05/04/2021 em 19:32, Zemahh disse:

I also enjoy fast-transitions football very much and my personal favourite tactic in FM is an Attacking 4-4-2 w/ low block. I find it can produce some scintillating counters and often break all kinds of scoring records against teams that give you space, however, it does start falling flat once your reputation improves to the point you're a favourite going into every match. FM is difficult in that regard, because AI tends to become very defensive very quick, it's nothing like teams in real life, where even the biggest underdogs will approach games bravely at times.

If you're interested, I documented my approach to counter-attacking here.

Since I usually manage in lower leagues, I find this style of football the easiest to climb the tiers with. The idea isn't to sit back and wait for automatically generated counters, but rather to go balls to the wall and commit plenty of men forward at every opportunity.

I closely recreated your tactical setting whilst managing Schalke and although it performed quite well offensively, with numerous defense splitting passes to isolate one of my fowards made from deep positions, the defensive side turned out to be an absolute disaster and I was conceding far too many goals. I don´t know if this is a fault of the actual match engine itself but defenders seem to make so many silly mistakes, it´s unbeliavble, from constantly missing interceptions, to tackling the ball straight to the opposition or taking far longer than what´s reasonable to react to the ongoing events around them and take action, so it appears like allowing your opponent to have most of the ball and come at you in the current ME build is asking for trouble.

Edited April 7, 2021 by CEVR1996

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, CEVR1996 said:

I closely recreated your tactical setting whilst managing Schalke and although it performed quite well offensively, with numerous defense splitting passes to isolate one of my fowards made from deep positions, the defensive side turned out to be an absolute disaster and I was conceding far too many goals.

If you could make a new thread with a screenshot of the tactic you're using, that'd be great. Just so that we don't hijack OPs thread here.

But if you're talking about the 4-4-2 from my Dorking Wanderers save, I remember flanks being the most vulnerable part of that tactic. You could check your Analyst Report to confirm exactly what type of goals you're conceding and where the assists are coming from, but Very Attacking Mentalities on both flanks (Attacking Mentality + Wingers on Attack Duty) are always going to cause some issues defensively. I'd say defenders with excellent Jumping Reach and Heading are a must in any low-block tactic.

[Tsuru]

15 horas atrás, CEVR1996 disse:

I closely recreated your tactical setting whilst managing Schalke and although it performed quite well offensively, with numerous defense splitting passes to isolate one of my fowards made from deep positions, the defensive side turned out to be an absolute disaster and I was conceding far too many goals. I don´t know if this is a fault of the actual match engine itself but defenders seem to make so many silly mistakes, it´s unbeliavble, from constantly missing interceptions, to tackling the ball straight to the opposition or taking far longer than what´s reasonable to react to the ongoing events around them and take action, so it appears like allowing your opponent to have most of the ball and come at you in the current ME build is asking for trouble.

Maybe this is an attribute issue - that is, maybe your team is not attribute-suited to invite and absorb pressure and frustrate opposition teams all the time. When you play defensive football your mistake margin is very, very tight, all 11 players have to be concentrated during 90 minutes and, if only one does a single mistake and you suffer a goal, everything falls apart. That´s why I really think playing a defensive style is much, much harder than attacking in FM: It is different from real life in which managers can train the players on more specific ways, something that is not truly possible in the game.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Tsuru

[zyfon5]

24 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Maybe this is an attribute issue - that is, maybe your team is not attribute-suited to invite and absorb pressure and frustrate opposition teams all the time. When you play defensive football your mistake margin is very, very tight, all 11 players have to be concentrated during 90 minutes and, if only one does a single mistake and you suffer a goal, everything falls apart. That´s why I really think playing a defensive style is much, much harder than attacking in FM: It is different from real life in which managers can train the players on more specific ways, something that is not truly possible in the game.

I will argue that there is no true defensive football which you rely on defending fully for 90 minutes. The only way of playing true defensive football is to stack all 11 players in front of the goal with no attacking intent at all. The objective of playing defensive football is making your mistake margins much smaller not higher. If the above statement is true, every team from the lower league should be playing like Liverpool against big teams and yet they choose to park the bus against any big team. If your mistake margins are so small that one single mistake will cost you dearly, it is bad tactics and does not relate to attacking football or defensive football. Ask Pep Guardiola whenever he sees his team concede one shot. The team he manages has always ranked the highest in terms of goals conceded per shot. The margin of error is very small here but will you say that Pep Guardiola plays defensive football?

Edited April 8, 2021 by zyfon5

[CEVR1996]

15 horas atrás, Zemahh disse:

If you could make a new thread with a screenshot of the tactic you're using, that'd be great. Just so that we don't hijack OPs thread here.

But if you're talking about the 4-4-2 from my Dorking Wanderers save, I remember flanks being the most vulnerable part of that tactic. You could check your Analyst Report to confirm exactly what type of goals you're conceding and where the assists are coming from, but Very Attacking Mentalities on both flanks (Attacking Mentality + Wingers on Attack Duty) are always going to cause some issues defensively. I'd say defenders with excellent Jumping Reach and Heading are a must in any low-block tactic.

I will be doing that shortly. And yes, I did make a close copy of your Dorking tactic with only a few minor alterations like a box to box midfielder instead of a standard CM on support duty and the DLP has been given a defensive role to balance things out. I think I´ve also instructed the team to cross into the box from deeper positions to try taking advantage of having two pure strikers upfront who will move very high up the pitch whenever my team is in possession. 

Judging from what I´ve seen in the match engine, the fullbacks were the ones responsible for most of the defensive problems due to them constantly leaving big gaps of open space along the backline, putting extra pressure on the CB´s or being too passive when confronting an opposing attacker, often allowing for an easy passage. I´d say they are by far the greatest detriment towards the goal of achieving defensive solidity.

Edited April 8, 2021 by CEVR1996

[Tsuru]

3 horas atrás, zyfon5 disse:

I will argue that there is no true defensive football which you rely on defending fully for 90 minutes. The only way of playing true defensive football is to stack all 11 players in front of the goal with no attacking intent at all. The objective of playing defensive football is making your mistake margins much smaller not higher.

I disagree. For me the goal of playing defensive football is to extract the best possible performance from players which are capable of playing defensive football.  And when this style is chosen, the manager should be aware that his margin of error is lower and should have, for example, a B plan. 

I also don´t think that defensive football is just to stack 11 players in front of the goal during 90 minutes during a whole season. There are many different ways of playing it.

3 horas atrás, zyfon5 disse:

If the above statement is true, every team from the lower league should be playing like Liverpool against big teams and yet they choose to park the bus against any big team. If your mistake margins are so small that one single mistake will cost you dearly, it is bad tactics and does not relate to attacking football or defensive football. Ask Pep Guardiola whenever he sees his team concede one shot. The team he manages has always ranked the highest in terms of goals conceded per shot. The margin of error is very small here but will you say that Pep Guardiola plays defensive football?

I also disagree. For me, park the bus is yes used by small teams against bigger ones, but only because they have nothing to loose. Their winning chances are low anyway, their mistake margin is also very low - because the other team is much better - and nobody expects anything from them, so they park the bus trying to draw or maybe loose for a few goals instead of many. And this is the same on FM when you are an underdog on a national cup playing against a much bigger and stronger team, but not necessarily a strategy used during all matches of a full season (or many seasons).

I didn´t say that defensive football is measured by the mistake margin, I said that it has a smaller one. Why? Because if you attack and suffer a goal, you will keep attacking, your main strategy does not need to change. If you play defensively and suffer a goal, you will have to change your strategy and attack - or accept you will probably loose that game. Or maybe if the other team is parking the bus, you will probably have problems and will need to adapt and attack.

And yes, it has been said here on the forums that some people see Guardiola´s style as very defensive. It depends a lot on the way you look into it.