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The FM 2021 AMC thread


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1 hora atrás, Haribo1681 disse:

In theory, I like it - having the AM on a very attacking individual mentality and looking to attack the space created by the AF(a) pushing the defence back, but does it contradict some unwritten rule?

No, it doesn´t. But what I have observed is that, without a playmaker in the middle, the team tends to rush the play too much and insist to play long balls to the AF for absolutely no reason. And he isn´t even a Target Man :lol:

Maybe you can use the AM-A on the middle behind the AF-A, but with a playmaker on the center of the field, maybe a DLP-D or DLP-Su.

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11 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Trying out a narrow shape tonight

It fared well, really well 

Liverpool.thumb.png.967fd26241f32a5f3893a77f09bb9c81.png

But I wasn't happy, it didn't play out like I thought it would. Trent & Robbo ran the show for creation, most goals seemed to involve one of those two. Ball out to them, ball into the box, Salah, goal. I want ball from the back, find Bobby, find Salah, goal. Didn't happen enough 

tactic.thumb.png.7f306fb085f8a4c39e8a433ec3cacbde.png

As you can see, his average rating was the lowest out of the main squad, quite often he's get a 6.70 & be hauled off for Curtis Jones. Some games we scored 6 or more & he'd be involved in none of them

Bobby.thumb.png.455a7cb7dfc92c9b824859e3d3415206.png

In nearly 60 games over the season, I thought his output was pretty poor for how good he is & how good the team is which is what the AMC frustration is with this game. It's easy to get performances out of other roles without even trying but the AMC you have to jump through hoops to get anything near decent numbers

Bobby.png.e4e26a4b60a7d2294e60bc58d6d12798.png

I'll add a few GIFs but it's nothing exciting 

ETA: Holy heck!! Only just noticed VVD on 16 goals, gotta love those near post corners!! :lol:

 

i realised most of your tactics dont have counter press ticked on , is there any reasoning behind that?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, halfspace3000 said:

i realised most of your tactics dont have counter press ticked on , is there any reasoning behind that?

Just personal preference, it makes things too gung-ho for my liking & only use it to be cruel to a minnow :D

Edited by Johnny Ace
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5 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

No, it doesn´t. But what I have observed is that, without a playmaker in the middle, the team tends to rush the play too much and insist to play long balls to the AF for absolutely no reason. And he isn´t even a Target Man :lol:

Maybe you can use the AM-A on the middle behind the AF-A, but with a playmaker on the center of the field, maybe a DLP-D or DLP-Su.

That's interesting - I've used DLP(d) in CM a lot (alongside a BWM or BBM) and they rack up a lot of passes without being vertical enough for my taste, which leaves my AM trio all hovering around the box, causing their ratings to drop.

My plan for the upcoming season is to switch to (predominantly) a CM(d) and DLP(s) - I'm hoping this will increase our risk taking in midfield without sacrificing protection for a back four which normally features 2 x WB(s).

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So I altered a few thing around last night and got a much better set of results, I understand the sample size isn't that great so I don't want to get to ahead of myself. Adding a Mezzala in the left hand side on centre midfield as well as a DLP on the right, has really really changed up my play, he is linking the with winger who has also been changed to attack and the  AP and we are creating and scoring many many more goals. I'm even getting some beautiful through balls from the DLP over the top which I've not really had before. I think we had a spell where I scored 3+ for 7 games in a row. The winger on attack has been really really dangerous for me even though I've still been playing a right footed played on the left. Leaves me more vulnerable defensively but in 75% of my games I'm significantly stronger than my opposition anyway. I am slightly confused again though how I'm getting the best results of my save so far with something that in theory shouldn't work to well (double playmakers, multiple attacking players with attack duty). Ive added a pic of the formation and results and its really really obvious where I introduced the tactic.

new formation.png

form (2).png

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21 minutos atrás, danyates8 disse:

I am slightly confused again though how I'm getting the best results of my save so far with something that in theory shouldn't work to well (double playmakers, multiple attacking players with attack duty). Ive added a pic of the formation and results and its really really obvious where I introduced the tactic.

You use the same number of attack duties that I do - three. I think it is a good number to balance offensive intent and not being so vulnerable.

You have really good players and are stronger than the majority of your opponents, so the higher quality allows you to be a little bit more adventurous :D

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32 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

You use the same number of attack duties that I do - three. I think it is a good number to balance offensive intent and not being so vulnerable.

You have really good players and are stronger than the majority of your opponents, so the higher quality allows you to be a little bit more adventurous :D

I agree with this - I tend to use less attack duties, more support duties - I get a lot of possession and don't score so much, but also we don't concede as many. It's all a balancing act!

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Yeah I was suffering quite badly without that extra attacking duty and it makes sense for the winger to have it so he can act as a second striker. its clearly working lol whether its the Mezzala allowing him the extra space or the attack duty I'm not 100% sure, but I'm much more impressed with the results. On to the AMC im still not getting 100% what I want from him but I'm going to see out the season to see if there's any noticeable improvement brought about by other changes. I love this thread its excellent. 

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Just now, danyates8 said:

Yeah I was suffering quite badly without that extra attacking duty and it makes sense for the winger to have it so he can act as a second striker. its clearly working lol whether its the Mezzala allowing him the extra space or the attack duty I'm not 100% sure, but I'm much more impressed with the results. On to the AMC im still not getting 100% what I want from him but I'm going to see out the season to see if there's any noticeable improvement brought about by other changes. I love this thread its excellent. 

I think sometimes the movement of one player will 'force' another to take up more suitable positions, which might be what you're seeing with the Mezzala and Winger. I've seen it happen with my WB forcing my IF to take a more central position, which is what I want - alternatively, it could be the other way round, where the IF vacates space that the WB moves into.

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Just now, Haribo1681 said:

I think sometimes the movement of one player will 'force' another to take up more suitable positions, which might be what you're seeing with the Mezzala and Winger. I've seen it happen with my WB forcing my IF to take a more central position, which is what I want - alternatively, it could be the other way round, where the IF vacates space that the WB moves into.

Yeah that was the thinking behind my change really, I had effectively 1 guy doing all the work up top. It showed in the stats last season as he had 32 goals in the league however the next highest scorer was 6. My winger pretty much has that total already after 15 games and the strikers output hasn't changed at all so there has been positive change which I'm delighted with, How long it lasts is another issue but for now I'm very happy. 

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12 hours ago, Tsuru said:

No, it doesn´t. But what I have observed is that, without a playmaker in the middle, the team tends to rush the play too much and insist to play long balls to the AF for absolutely no reason. And he isn´t even a Target Man :lol:

Maybe you can use the AM-A on the middle behind the AF-A, but with a playmaker on the center of the field, maybe a DLP-D or DLP-Su.

Do you think an AP on attack  in the AMC position would radically change things much?

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11 horas atrás, horned frog 94 disse:

Do you think an AP on attack  in the AMC position would radically change things much?

I have been testing a AP-At/AF-At pair and I really liked the first results. Although having an attack duty the AP moves a little bit deeper when necessary and foward when needed, this way he open space for the MC pair to operate and at the same time does not isolate the main striker.

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If anyone wants some AMC fun, I highly recommended getting a Qatar league add on from the Steam Workshop & play as Al-Rayyan

Yacine Brahimi can play any AMC role & is one of the best players in the league, he's awesome 

 

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4 minutes ago, halfspace3000 said:

whats the formation looking like?

4-4-1-1 tonight. You could have a really good save here, it's a fun league & would be great for noobs to the game. I'd do a long termer if I had the time 

Untitled.png

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26 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

4-4-1-1 tonight. You could have a really good save here, it's a fun league & would be great for noobs to the game. I'd do a long termer if I had the time 

Untitled.png

nice, 4411 in this year game is really good and with the wingers ,it shd give the AMC more space to creative

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15 minutes ago, halfspace3000 said:

nice, 4411 in this year game is really good and with the wingers ,it shd give the AMC more space to creative

That was the plan, it's working well

Last night I used a 4-2-3-1 DM & won the league. The Champs League's really tough here, lots of big Saudi clubs so cracking those over the long run would be a good challenge 

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6 hours ago, danyates8 said:

How do any of you keep consistency in the tactic, i'm getting so frustrated at this 15/20 game cycle then you cant score at all. 

Jaded players, rep shift and they're setting up to stifle you?

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On 18/08/2021 at 23:25, Johnny Ace said:

This is my long running beef with the game, poor little fella here works his socks off, does everything right & my team completely ignores him 

Brahimi2.gif.5cda42e3b018b4f705a9bfd6ba1dd683.gif

 

Are you talking about the wide open space he has near the beginning of the clip?

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1 minute ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Are you talking about the wide open space he has near the beginning of the clip?

Yeah, plus a few other little parts of that clip 

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I don't really see a me issue there, a few things stick out for me. Early in the move he is well covered, any attempt to pass to him is a likely interception and potentially great counter.

Screenshot_20210820-122157_Chrome.jpg.e1453e6b1f4741e4482220891fc46fca.jpg

Then Brahimis movement and positioning isn't brilliant after that rendering the play dead which ends in the limp pass to the DM.

I would want him here not where he did end up.

Screenshot_20210820-122223_Chrome.jpg.5de236c15598cf29e59e3c07f852e7ee.jpg

The other issue is are your two players who are presumably your FB and Winger(both normally not great passers) able both mentally and technically to switch that ball at the right moment? For me the biggest problem in that whole build up is number 7.

You have a brilliant overload there, literally the whole opposition is on your left side and yet you have no one primed lurking and waiting for the pass and there is a man missing to make that key pass too.

This for me is what I would be looking for here.

Screenshot_20210820-124519_Chrome.jpg.da321e4b4c6e5a623edf310e753677c8.jpg

Brahimi occupying that massive vacant midfield marked by that central dot. Your RB higher up providing an extra outlet and your RW far higher up making that a 3 vs 2 with Brahimi and your striker.

The big one for as I just said for me is your number 7 who is entirely in the wrong place and who should be the one making that switch pass. If number 7 is occupying that space I marked he is an easy outlet and more than likely Brahimi isn't where he is because he gravitated there to offer support to the wide players.

I just want to re-empahsize this, look at all that space your team had with just two opposing players and look at the options that were available in that space.

Screenshot_20210820-130021_Chrome.jpg.bbb84bf1064e1df8485bcf770894d772.jpg

 

 

 

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15 horas atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

4-4-1-1 tonight. You could have a really good save here, it's a fun league & would be great for noobs to the game. I'd do a long termer if I had the time 

Untitled.png

This is interesting, I decided to play again my Wrexham save on 5th division and the first tests with the 4-2-3-1 showed a lot of through balls and offsides, which didn´t happen with Bournemouth which is a much better team.

I think I will also try a slightly different version with FB-Su on the left and WB-D behind a W-At on the right, using the WB-D as a kind of "third CB" which advances when necessary. I will let you know the results :D 

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Excellent analysis there @Crazy_Ivan, thanks!

I do see things with blinkers on at times but this ME seriously surprises me (in a good way) with the passes & crosses my players can see & pull off that I wouldn't even consider. I just thought with that shift over to the left someone would've tried to make use of the space. I mean they did in the end with the ball to Kom & we got a shot off but he's really not the kind of player I want with the ball there :lol: 

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7 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

This is interesting, I decided to play again my Wrexham save on 5th division and the first tests with the 4-2-3-1 showed a lot of through balls and offsides, which didn´t happen with Bournemouth which is a much better team.

I think I will also try a slightly different version with FB-Su on the left and WB-D behind a W-At on the right, using the WB-D as a kind of "third CB" which advances when necessary. I will let you know the results :D 

Please do :thup:

It worked well for me, we came 2nd in the league though this time, losing out by a point after a couple of injuries to key players. Media prediction was 4th . As long out I outdo the prediction I'm pretty happy 

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Posted (edited)

Just finished a 4-3-3 (that sorta counts, right?) season & slotting him into a CM slot has made quite a change to his output. I did cheat a bit here & move his attributes from LM to CM because the ass man would completely drop him from the squad even though I was telling him not too :seagull:

4-3-3.png.418e06dd9d962f1cd644c759d6481f52.png

 

Just check these out, both from the last game. He completed the hattrick with a free kick 

Brahimi4.gif.d702e0c06e504d148bba62d751040ac6.gif

Brahimi5.gif.1ea9387ce0362568bd59595705637456.gif

I genuinely think because he's 10 yard further back & slightly off centre that gives him the extra space to start his runs 

Though he takes set pieces, he's my top goal scorer so far this season, 18 in 27 while Boli has 17 in 26 

Untitled.png.9b8a15b17d68ba3239786a4ec65af33e.png

By far his best season, better than anything at AMC :D Did the domestic double too

Edited by Johnny Ace
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22 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Plop him into CM  with the same role & he does this...

Brahimi3.gif.33d0625d70d888a5e67363594033a644.gif

 

Crazy, I can't help but feel the AMC is hamstrung

 

Maybe he just has good traits what does his stats look like?

 

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My world class inside forward on if - su has 6.6 rating all season wi 0 goals. I’m also struggling to get the best out of my world class striker

my tactic is positive or balanced mentality depending on the game

         Sk-d

wb- a bpd- d cd-d wb-s

         dm-s  vol- s

if-s.         Am - s       Iw-s

               Af- A

 

 

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7 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

My world class inside forward on if - su has 6.6 rating all season wi 0 goals. I’m also struggling to get the best out of my world class striker

my tactic is positive or balanced mentality depending on the game

         Sk-d

wb- a bpd- d cd-d wb-s

         dm-s  vol- s

if-s.         Am - s       Iw-s

               Af- A

 

 

What does the am(s) do and why is the IF not on attack and why are you using an IW?

If everyone is going inside than how does the am(s) create anything for the striker or IF to score.

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1 minute ago, De Nile said:

What does the am(s) do and why is the IF not on attack and why are you using an IW?

If everyone is going inside than how does the am(s) create anything for the striker or IF to score.

Am s has moves into channels. Take more risks roam from position.

tbh you are right with the second part.

I have another tactic with cf -a and the inverted winger on attack. I’m thinking of adding the stay wide instruction on one of the wingers to counteract the width issue. Probably the inside forward

 

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3 minutes ago, De Nile said:

What does the am(s) do and why is the IF not on attack and why are you using an IW?

If everyone is going inside than how does the am(s) create anything for the striker or IF to score.

I has the most success with a AM(S)/AP(S) when there's 3 in the box, let him stay on the edge & find the other 3, so it's not always a bad thing

16 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

My world class inside forward on if - su has 6.6 rating all season wi 0 goals. I’m also struggling to get the best out of my world class striker

my tactic is positive or balanced mentality depending on the game

         Sk-d

wb- a bpd- d cd-d wb-s

         dm-s  vol- s

if-s.         Am - s       Iw-s

               Af- A

 

 

What are the TI's?

I'm running a 4-2-3-1 DM now, I tried it out with a SV(S) so you need to be careful down that side, a WB(S) might be too risky, try a FB(S) instead. The DM(S) might be better as a DM(D) to offer some protection because barring your CB's everyone will be going forward 

3 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Am s has moves into channels. Take more risks roam from position.

tbh you are right with the second part.

I have another tactic with cf -a and the inverted winger on attack. I’m thinking of adding the stay wide instruction on one of the wingers to counteract the width issue. Probably the inside forward

 

I wouldn't roam on the AM(S) myself, you want him on the edge of the box, picking out your other 3, if he roams he could be anywhere. The SV should take some of the heat off him 

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14 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I has the most success with a AM(S)/AP(S) when there's 3 in the box, let him stay on the edge & find the other 3, so it's not always a bad thing

What are the TI's?

I'm running a 4-2-3-1 DM now, I tried it out with a SV(S) so you need to be careful down that side, a WB(S) might be too risky, try a FB(S) instead. The DM(S) might be better as a DM(D) to offer some protection because barring your CB's everyone will be going forward 

I wouldn't roam on the AM(S) myself, you want him on the edge of the box, picking out your other 3, if he roams he could be anywhere. The SV should take some of the heat off him 

Well I mean I’m not struggling with the defensively. I’ve conceded 5 goals in 16 league games and I conceded only 14 the season before. The idea is that dms help support the attack. Worked the season before with the team I mentioned. Scored 120 goals and got 103 points. Just not satisfied with the lack of consistent ratings I’m getting from my front four and wanted to get the best out of my amc and wanted my striker to score as many as possible. Think I’m going to go back to that tactic now.

The ti’s are play out of defence, shorter passing, low crosses

distibute to fb and cb with counterpress 

high d line standard loe extremely urgent pressing, prevent gk distribution 

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2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I has the most success with a AM(S)/AP(S) when there's 3 in the box, let him stay on the edge & find the other 3, so it's not always a bad thing

I know it can work for you but he needs to tell us how it works for him otherwise he may not of had this problem.

10 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I have another tactic with cf -a and the inverted winger on attack. I’m thinking of adding the stay wide instruction on one of the wingers to counteract the width issue. Probably the inside forward

If you are going to use a CF than the AM will be more of passenger because it is not a playmaker.

Do you have anyone who can play as a winger to stretch the team or a AP(s) on the flanks so the wing backs can overlap.

If the Af doesn't work use a Df(a) or a P

I would use take more risks on am(s)

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1 minute ago, _mxrky said:

Well I mean I’m not struggling with the defensively. I’ve conceded 5 goals in 16 league games and I conceded only 14 the season before. The idea is that dms help support the attack. Worked the season before with the team I mentioned. Scored 120 goals and got 103 points. Just not satisfied with the lack of consistent ratings I’m getting from my front four and wanted to get the best out of my amc and wanted my striker to score as many as possible. Think I’m going to go back to that tactic now.

The ti’s are play out of defence, shorter passing, low crosses

distibute to fb and cb with counterpress 

high d line standard loe extremely urgent pressing, prevent gk distribution 

Sounds fine to me, who's getting the 120 goals?

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8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Sounds fine to me, who's getting the 120 goals?

Spread through the team but my striker and attacking inverted winger got 19 each. I scored A LOT from set pieces

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5 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Spread through the team but my striker and attacking inverted winger got 19 each. I scored A LOT from set pieces

Ugly football then?

From what I can tell, it's just too many getting forward, clogging the upper third up. Been there myself 

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                 P (a)

AP(s)        AM(s)         IF(a)

If you are going to use a wingback than I think ap(s) will do well then the am(s) needs to roam so he can find space for the wingers to pick out a pass idk if your player is a good dribbler but it would be good. IF(a) would make attacking runs into the channel. Poacher just needs to score, if he has great OTB and antipation, the role will work.

Positive

Slightly positive tempo

Play out the back

Be more expressive

Wide or fairly wide

 

Edited by De Nile
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Em 20/08/2021 em 12:24, Johnny Ace disse:

Please do :thup:

It worked well for me, we came 2nd in the league though this time, losing out by a point after a couple of injuries to key players. Media prediction was 4th . As long out I outdo the prediction I'm pretty happy 

The first tests were in general very good.

On the first match I used almost the same combination of roles/duties you did, however with WB-D/W-At on the right flank, and FB-Su/Iw-Su on the left. But the team was too exposed with two CM-Su, I could literally see a hole between the defence and the midfield. This was also the way the other team scored, using the space behind the two CM-Su, which were completely lost.

After testing the 4-3-3 DM you suggested here - and I saw great attacking movements and an awful defence behaviour - I returned to the 4-4-1-1 but asked one of the CM-S to "Hold Position" and do more risky passes, pretending he could act as a non-playmaker DLP-Su and protect the defence more. However he was not doing it very well and the hole was still there, so I changed the AMC to AM-At and used a DLP-Su beside the CM-Su, to work together with the WB-D ahd help recycling possession more. I don´t like two or more playmakers together, so this change was necessary. 

The result was simply amazing, the DLP-Su played a fantastic match with two assists to goal, helping in defence, midfield and attack. And the AM-AT/AF pair was very good too, the AM works as a midfielder near the central pair and moves aggressively foward when necessary to not leave the AF isolated. 

I used the DLP-Su near the W-At and ahead of the WB-D, but I want to test him on the other side near the IW-Su, this way the CM can help the winger more and the DLP can do through passes for the IW to use the space better. But so far so good until now.

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Posted (edited)

I seem to have put together a cracking tactic but it doesn't get much out of the AP(S)but does the striker & everyone else

I mean, it's not terrible but nothing to write home about 

Kai.png.f421cd0eff952f9c8bbb0e157388b451.png

I think a less playmaker type player would work well, it did with Bruno & KDB with their set piece & long shot specialisms 

I'll pass this tactic on to Tom, he didn't have buy Lukaku  

timo.png.39a885899391ae2616c64edc2e1a6489.png

We did Liverpool but City were too strong at the end of the season

table.png.b6d60c5696a16af55bb12ff98fa4a3fa.png

I used this in a holiday sim in Touch, not a super tactic but a good base if it helps anyone out. A Treq(A) works well there too, an Eng(S) could work, I tried it with an AM(S) & it wasn't as good 

Chelsea.png.1b2b364270776d893317e46cb1bb32d2.png

Here's a few clips of Havertz

Havertz.gif.592b218ea0f688a45950f318cf7227c9.gif

Havertz2.gif.7fb195921af63e4450c1ee8a680159ec.gif

Havertz3.gif.2f9d28b14179056349039262be5fd299.gif

Havertz4.gif.1fd8405bf33a3edcd973669391dca26a.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Johnny Ace
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On 18/08/2021 at 18:01, Tsuru said:

No, it doesn´t. But what I have observed is that, without a playmaker in the middle, the team tends to rush the play too much and insist to play long balls to the AF for absolutely no reason. And he isn´t even a Target Man :lol:

Maybe you can use the AM-A on the middle behind the AF-A, but with a playmaker on the center of the field, maybe a DLP-D or DLP-Su.

Have you checked your tempo, mentality and passing instructions? I have a 4231 which uses an AM(S) and all he does is work within my midfield pairing to help us keep the ball. He isn't a ball magnet but I have one playing behind in the form of a DLP so whenever we camp the movement of my AMC usually drags the DM around. He pulls the DM, then passes the ball to the DLP who plays the important pass. 

So if you are almost always seeing the ball hoofed to the AF it could very be: 

Your mentality, tempo, passing directness. And don't forget, the AF is also the focus of an attack. There is a reason why counter attacking systems like AFs more than any other role.

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3 horas atrás, Rashidi disse:

Have you checked your tempo, mentality and passing instructions? I have a 4231 which uses an AM(S) and all he does is work within my midfield pairing to help us keep the ball. He isn't a ball magnet but I have one playing behind in the form of a DLP so whenever we camp the movement of my AMC usually drags the DM around. He pulls the DM, then passes the ball to the DLP who plays the important pass. 

So if you are almost always seeing the ball hoofed to the AF it could very be: 

Your mentality, tempo, passing directness. And don't forget, the AF is also the focus of an attack. There is a reason why counter attacking systems like AFs more than any other role.

Interesting. During the past weeks I have been playing with "blank" tactics - Balanced mentality, no TIs, no PIs, no OIs - and yes, even using an AF the team is not hoofing the ball to him, at least not at all times. And when they do, it is normally on a clear goal scoring situation. It is nice because it gives us a direct playstyle without forcing it or being too direct. And my AFs scored some goals this way on the preseason.

As I am using a 4-4-1-1 now I will probably choose a striker that drops a little bit deeper and an AMC that attacks the box more, as I don´t have advanced wingers to attack the box and help the AF more directly. Just a matter of preference, as I know that a more traditional pair like AP-At/AF-At could also work as well and create a more direct/counter way.

Edited by Tsuru
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 23/08/2021 at 19:29, Johnny Ace said:

I seem to have put together a cracking tactic but it doesn't get much out of the AP(S)but does the striker & everyone else

I mean, it's not terrible but nothing to write home about 

Kai.png.f421cd0eff952f9c8bbb0e157388b451.png

I think a less playmaker type player would work well, it did with Bruno & KDB with their set piece & long shot specialisms 

I'll pass this tactic on to Tom, he didn't have buy Lukaku  

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We did Liverpool but City were too strong at the end of the season

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I used this in a holiday sim in Touch, not a super tactic but a good base if it helps anyone out. A Treq(A) works well there too, an Eng(S) could work, I tried it with an AM(S) & it wasn't as good 

Chelsea.png.1b2b364270776d893317e46cb1bb32d2.png

Here's a few clips of Havertz

Havertz.gif.592b218ea0f688a45950f318cf7227c9.gif

Havertz2.gif.7fb195921af63e4450c1ee8a680159ec.gif

Havertz3.gif.2f9d28b14179056349039262be5fd299.gif

Havertz4.gif.1fd8405bf33a3edcd973669391dca26a.gif

Just wondering , is this thread still going?

 

 

 

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