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Goalkeepers hoofing the ball when instructed otherwise

Johnny Ace

By Johnny Ace,
in Match Engine - AI and Tactics

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Johnny Ace

Johnny Ace

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I thought I'd log this as I've done everything I can to reduce this & he still does it 

I'm playing Cautious, TI's pass much shorter, getting him to take short kicks to the backline 

image.thumb.png.60bec7bc2157fe3376ecc4daddc15ac2.png

 

Here's his pass map for a typical game, take at look at the 4th & 6th minute 

Untitled2.png.aca2965a3f37387f7458130f6a40494d.png

 

Solihull Moors v Birmingham.pkm

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Johnny Ace

Johnny Ace

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11 hours ago, FreezingTable said:

Have you tried changing the role of the keeper? I have mine as sweeper-keeper (support), much better!

Yeah SK D/S/A, I thought it was the more risky passes PI & mentality for him affecting it so changed him to the big standard GK role  

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Johnny Ace

Johnny Ace

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23 minutes ago, FreezingTable said:

If you are using the PI “take less risk” I think the keeper will hoof the ball if he’s under pressure. 

In some of the above examples the team are setting up to play out from the back & he still punts it with 2 or 3 of them free 

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Johnny Ace

Johnny Ace

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1 hour ago, FreezingTable said:

I can understand this is annoying if it’s goal kick or a back pass and the keeper has plenty of time with the ball. Then it’s probably something SI should look into. But if the opponents striker is near, the keeper will probably hoof the ball because of the role. 

This is the sort of example I'm talking about 

Untitled.thumb.png.9611b2c1385d9b5a0079cc1463530f83.png

 

No reason for him to kick it long there at all 

 

 

Birmingham v Sheffield Wednesday.pkm

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tiotom92

tiotom92

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I've had a similar but slightly different experience with goalkeepers.

On fantasy draft I played a 3 striker formations and instructed Ederson to kick it long and aim for the target man in the middle, however every single kick he kicked it to the left-hand striker.

On my career save I ask my goalkeeper to play it short and I've not had any issues with him not doing so (I play on attacking if that helps).

Edited by tiotom92
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Josh Brimacombe-Wiard

Josh Brimacombe-Wiard

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Hi All,

Thank you for your comments on this, we will look into this in the studio. 

This is an interesting thread and topic, and it's important to understand that although you may set TI's to play a certain way, the GK may still choose to opt for another type of distribution. This is seen a lot in world football, with the likes of Ederson & Alisson varying their distribution depending on the picture and what they see. If a GK has been instructed to play short, however they see a picture further up the pitch, for example a high defensive line or a space to play someone in further forward, I do believe that it is reasonable for that pass to be played. There also may be counter TI's from the opposition, such a "Prevent GK Short Distribution", that means despite your best efforts as a coach, your GK may not be confident enough to play short every time under immense pressure. Going long a few times may also encourage the opposition to drop off, allowing you to play short next time.

Having said the above, I do think there needs to be logic behind the GK going long. If they're aimlessly punting the ball, when the team are perfectly set up to play out from the back, there could be something of value here. Can I ask if you have specifically selected to distribute to CB/FB's? If so, does this help?

Cheers,

Josh

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Pasonen

Pasonen

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On 29/11/2020 at 22:03, Johnny Ace said:

I thought I'd log this as I've done everything I can to reduce this & he still does it 

I'm playing Cautious, TI's pass much shorter, getting him to take short kicks to the backline 

image.thumb.png.60bec7bc2157fe3376ecc4daddc15ac2.png

 

Here's his pass map for a typical game, take at look at the 4th & 6th minute 

Untitled2.png.aca2965a3f37387f7458130f6a40494d.png

 

Solihull Moors v Birmingham.pkm 59.51 kB · 0 downloads

It could be GK take these some times because of counter setting or pass into space?@Josh Brimacombe-WiardBrimacombe-Wiard?

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Johnny Ace

Johnny Ace

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2 hours ago, Josh Brimacombe-Wiard said:

Having said the above, I do think there needs to be logic behind the GK going long. If they're aimlessly punting the ball, when the team are perfectly set up to play out from the back, there could be something of value here. Can I ask if you have specifically selected to distribute to CB/FB's? If so, does this help?

Just how it was in the screenie mate, distribute to centre backs & fulls backs

I did remove the Pass into space & WBIB TI's & it didn't really change anything @Pasonen

Only other thing I can think of to test out is asking him to roll it out 

Edited by Johnny Ace
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Pasonen

Pasonen

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15 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just how it was in the screenie mate, distribute to centre backs & fulls backs

I did remove the Pass into space & WBIB TI's & it didn't really change anything @Pasonen

Only other thing I can think of to test out is asking him to roll it out 

I think its got to do GK kicking ball from his hands he doesn't drop it and when he moves further with the ball opposition defline/formation is not reacting so there's a space behind Def where GK thinks he must try.

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Pav_Makarov

Pav_Makarov

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4 hours ago, Josh Brimacombe-Wiard said:

GK may still choose to opt for another type of distribution

This is a good point, but I can argue, that while with other positions it's really a matter of decision making, build up from the back is a strict instruction and should be hardcoded. Anyway fair point I'll play couple games tonight with my posession-based formation and drop PKMs here. On average my GK hoofs 1/3 of all his passes and I can't figure out why yet

Thank you for the feedback

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Josh Brimacombe-Wiard

Josh Brimacombe-Wiard

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Hi All,

Thanks for your feedback, this is now under review in the studio. 

We appreciate there will be a difference of opinion on this, but we feel GK's should still have the flexibility to play any pass they see on the pitch. The instruction should be to try and influence them to play a specific way more frequently than not, a team's familiarity with a tactic should be able to help with this frequency. If there are examples where they go long, completely illogically, these are the best ones for us to look into. But if for example, a long pass gets a striker in on goal or is into an open space, that is feasible.

Cheers,

Josh

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FreezingTable

FreezingTable

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4 hours ago, Josh Brimacombe-Wiard said:

the GK may still choose to opt for another type of distribution. This is seen a lot in world football, with the likes of Ederson & Alisson varying their distribution depending on the picture and what they see. If a GK has been instructed to play short, however they see a picture further up the pitch, for example a high defensive line or a space to play someone who’s further forward...

This is something I find very weird. I can understand it when the keeper is under pressure, but otherwise he should stick to the TI. In real life, as a manager you could tell a player to almost never shoot or almost never play long balls. In FM the player needs to train to do what you demand from them and often they're not able to do it. Weird.
If a player in real life is doing to much outside of the TI he’s going to be taken of and benched . 

 

 

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kandersson

kandersson

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I'm also seeing this. I'll add that while I also select the 'distribute quickly' instruction, the GK tends to hold the ball (in open play) and eventually kicks long. So this actually goes against two specific TI's (distribute quickly and play out of defence/roll it out).

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tiotom92

tiotom92

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2 hours ago, Josh Brimacombe-Wiard said:

Hi All,

Thanks for your feedback, this is now under review in the studio. 

We appreciate there will be a difference of opinion on this, but we feel GK's should still have the flexibility to play any pass they see on the pitch. The instruction should be to try and influence them to play a specific way more frequently than not, a team's familiarity with a tactic should be able to help with this frequency. If there are examples where they go long, completely illogically, these are the best ones for us to look into. But if for example, a long pass gets a striker in on goal or is into an open space, that is feasible.

Cheers,

Josh

To counterbalance some of the previous points made.

Here is the pass map from my goalkeeper of all passes he attempted. I picked the most recent game that I played and it was against Man Utd who won the league last season (I finished 8th so ease of opposition was not a factor).

I ask my goalkeeper to pass it short and distribute to CBs, and it looks spot on to me. 32 passes attempted and only 2 or 3 of them were long.

image.thumb.png.ae193ac1f3f29fce12dab56396e546cf.png

Edited by tiotom92
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Lord Rowell

Lord Rowell

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Just a constructive suggestion for this - almost certainly for a future release of FM rather than now.

I think GK distribution has been a recurring theme in FM - the problem is when it goes wrong as an FM player it screws up everything so its IMO a large impact issue.

As the SI staff have said here, its reasonable that if the GK sees an alternative pass there should be some flexibility for them.

But I think one problem is that e.g. if I set GK distribute to DLP, and then the AI opponent marks the DLP, the GK all too often hoofs it. Similar if I select distribute to defenders and the AI opponent uses the option to stop that.

In such a scenario, I would like to be able to say to my keeper - if they stop you doing X, then do Y - I think that's a reasonable conversation to have. Hence, my suggestion going forward is to ask for a 2nd option for this.
I realise this may open a can of worms as I fully realise if we get into 2nd options for a number of things it'd be impossible. However, I would argue the impact of this is so significant its justifiable to have a 2nd option programmed in for future versions.
Thanks

LR

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jere_d

jere_d

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On 01/12/2020 at 10:23, Josh Brimacombe-Wiard said:

Hi All,

Thank you for your comments on this, we will look into this in the studio. 

This is an interesting thread and topic, and it's important to understand that although you may set TI's to play a certain way, the GK may still choose to opt for another type of distribution. This is seen a lot in world football, with the likes of Ederson & Alisson varying their distribution depending on the picture and what they see. If a GK has been instructed to play short, however they see a picture further up the pitch, for example a high defensive line or a space to play someone in further forward, I do believe that it is reasonable for that pass to be played. There also may be counter TI's from the opposition, such a "Prevent GK Short Distribution", that means despite your best efforts as a coach, your GK may not be confident enough to play short every time under immense pressure. Going long a few times may also encourage the opposition to drop off, allowing you to play short next time.

Having said the above, I do think there needs to be logic behind the GK going long. If they're aimlessly punting the ball, when the team are perfectly set up to play out from the back, there could be something of value here. Can I ask if you have specifically selected to distribute to CB/FB's? If so, does this help?

Cheers,

Josh

This is all well and good but in really life its rare you concede from your gk clearing the ball long

In game its literally 1 in 4 highlights GK ignoring instructions equals you conceding a goal

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