FM20 Experiment - Goalkeeper as striker in Liverpool (Inspired by Phil Jones ✕ Paris Saint-Germain)

[russell9]

9 hours ago, santy001 said:

At this point its just something of mild interest in the same way as someone posting a 100 game winning streak is. Unless the save is uploaded, the tactics are analysed, the games checked thoroughly then it remains nothing more than a minor interest because no one else can verify what has happened.

 

I will be surprised if SI has not already tried to reproduce this unless they are too busy with FM21. It's quite simple to be honest as all information is already provided. First pick the best team in the league then use a tactic that can win consistently and generate as much chances as possible.

[russell9]

A side test, Ben Winterbottom continue his adventure in Barcelona 
His new partner Ramon Vila is another 17 years old GK.
 

[russell9]

Fast forward to last friendly before season start. How many goals did Ben just score there?
 

[russell9]

First league match, Ben score a penalty.

[russell9]

Second, Ben score an open goal

[russell9]

Third, another penalty.
 

[santy001]

It's a waste of time for SI to try and reproduce this rather than do a deep dive in a save in which it has already happened. 

If you don't want to share your save etc that's fine. It just remains a curios oddity that is unverified. Perhaps someone else will pick it up and share their take on it. 

[russell9]

Forth, an open goal.

[russell9]

3 minutes ago, santy001 said:

It's a waste of time for SI to try and reproduce this rather than do a deep dive in a save in which it has already happened. 

If you don't want to share your save etc that's fine. It just remains a curios oddity that is unverified. Perhaps someone else will pick it up and share their take on it. 

Sure I can share the save to SI development team if they ask for it. Fyi, that Barcelona test is a completely new save I setup in just 10 minutes... 
On a side note, I wonder if SI is interested to hire a very keen game tester here 

[santy001]

Here's how they ask for files

Then you can create a bug report with the all other issues likely best given there could be multiple angles through which to investigate it. 

 

[naterego93]

The evidence is clearly there, the game is broken lol

[santy001]

@naterego93 even if you consider the only possibility is its broken - the question is then where is it broken?

Is it something in the match engine - its possible but maybe what's manifesting in the ME is triggered elsewhere.

Is it at the point of continuing to a game for example - perhaps something really bizarre happens with a goalkeepers attributes at this stage and because they're not the matching attributes for the position the game could be doing something that throws off the attributes before the player goes into the match.

There's so many points of potential issues, or even multiple issues combining or there may still even be something that explains why its happened in a non-bug manner. 

As an experiment this thread has largely run its course, so unless the OP wants to share his files in the manner SI have provided - so that they can investigate issues such as this - its never going to transition to a bug report that gets investigated by SI.

[Luizinho]

I can't seem to find the thread where they do a similar challenge with Phil Jones (as the title alludes to). Does anyone know how well he performed in comparison to this?

(I'm just hoping it's something to do with the GK's hidden technical stats, that causes him to score so freely)

[Ronaldo Beckham]

9 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

I can't seem to find the thread where they do a similar challenge with Phil Jones (as the title alludes to). Does anyone know how well he performed in comparison to this?

(I'm just hoping it's something to do with the GK's hidden technical stats, that causes him to score so freely)

Here is the Phil Jones reddit challenge thread.

 

[Ronaldo Beckham]

Just to update people so my save with Burnley and I am in January and Ben Mee has got 8 goals and 8 assists so far.

[russell9]

Just now, Ronaldo Beckham said:

Just to update people so my save with Burnley and I am in January and Ben Mee has got 8 goals and 8 assists so far.

Good job 

[Ronaldo Beckham]

Just now, russell9 said:

Good job 

Cheers mate. If I annoy you posting my update on how I am doing then please say as I am conscious of bombarding other people's threads.

I think your thread will go down as one of the most talked about threads due to what it has found out about the match engine.

[-Jef-]

On 27/10/2020 at 14:18, russell9 said:

Last match of half season. He is on fire!

 

Why does it say that he is central midfielder in this screenie and he's been put as CM as well in the TOTW? That alone would suggest he has more than 15 rating as central midfielder when in fact he starts out as rating of 1.

As far as I'm concerned this has been doctored, and while it is not a good look on ME it's also not a good look on this thread as well.

My suggestion is that you provide save game files here so that anyone can take a look and poke around the games.

Not to mention that you could've used external programs like FMRTE, increased attributes and frozen the attributes and he'd still show as 1*CA in-game.

[russell9]

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

Here's how they ask for files

Then you can create a bug report with the all other issues likely best given there could be multiple angles through which to investigate it. 

 

I will upload it later. I did a rerun of the Barcelona save and the results are even better because both GKs score a fair shair of goals not only Ben.

[russell9]

1 minute ago, rosque said:

 

Why does it say that he is central midfielder in this screenie and he's been put as CM as well in the TOTW? That alone would suggest he has more than 15 rating as central midfielder when in fact he starts out as rating of 1.

As far as I'm concerned this has been doctored, and while it is not a good look on ME it's also not a good look on this thread as well.

My suggestion is that you provide save game files here so that anyone can take a look and poke around the games.

Not to mention that you could've used external programs like FMRTE, increased attributes and frozen the attributes and he'd still show as 1*CA in-game.

lol this is clearly another bug reveal by this experiment. I never alter anything at all. Wanna bet on this? 

[russell9]

6 minutes ago, Ronaldo Beckham said:

Cheers mate. If I annoy you posting my update on how I am doing then please say as I am conscious of bombarding other people's threads.

I think your thread will go down as one of the most talked about threads due to what it has found out about the match engine.

Not at all man, it's better to have more experiment and evidence.

[-Jef-]

13 minutes ago, russell9 said:

I will upload it later. I did a rerun of the Barcelona save and the results are even better because both GKs score a fair shair of goals not only Ben.

I can't wait. If you could upload both saves it'd be great!

[russell9]

Meet my new Barcelona deadly duo GK strikers 

[kingking]

Pointless thread with save file.

[Ronaldo Beckham]

6 minutes ago, kingking said:

Pointless thread with save file.

I assume you meant without save file. Russel will probably post the save file soon enough.

 

[russell9]

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

Here's how they ask for files

Then you can create a bug report with the all other issues likely best given there could be multiple angles through which to investigate it. 

 

I have already uploaded the new Barca save. File name is 20.4 Baca + Ben start 2 dec20.fm
Kindly let the developer or tester to look for it.

[-Jef-]

Can you upload it here so I can also take a peek at it?

[russell9]

Just now, rosque said:

Can you upload it here so I can also take a peek at it?

You can only upload <10mb file here. Anyway, be patient and let the right people to investigate 

[-Jef-]

You can upload to mediafire.com or google drive.

Not sure why you are so adamant to not upload save file for people, same people you got interested in this story, to take a peek.

[Ronaldo Beckham]

1 minute ago, rosque said:

You can upload to mediafire.com or google drive.

Not sure why you are so adamant to not upload save file for people, same people you got interested in this story, to take a peek.

Stop pestering him. He has already uploaded the Barca save to the right people. 

You could always start a save with Liverpool and pick the same goalies upfront that he has and see how you get on.

[-Jef-]

I am not pestering him, I and some other people in the community wanna take a look at it.

It has generated a lot views and it should be right to upload it to google drive so that the community can also take a look at it.

If the save file has indeed been doctored and tinkered with 3rd party tools then the SI will just ignore it and nothing will come out of it.

Also, not sure why he does not want to upload it here. His only excuse is that the file is too big. You can upload to other site and I will sacrifice my PC to download it if people are afraid of the virus.

Edited October 29, 2020 by rosque

[davehanson]

3 minutes ago, Ronaldo Beckham said:

Stop pestering him. He has already uploaded the Barca save to the right people. 

You could always start a save with Liverpool and pick the same goalies upfront that he has and see how you get on.

I asked for the save too. The reason being that with the original save and tactics etc we can use the same parameters. Running our own save then different tactics can produce much different results. 

The reason I asked for the save was to see if there was something flawed with the game in handling things that @russell9 was doing,, or if there was something deeply flawed within the game itself.

While we are here @russell9, I take it you transferred Ben Winterbottom to Barcelona? Was that with a game editor or did you just make an offer for him in-game and transfer him that way? 

[Ronaldo Beckham]

2 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I asked for the save too. The reason being that with the original save and tactics etc we can use the same parameters. Running our own save then different tactics can produce much different results. 

The reason I asked for the save was to see if there was something flawed with the game in handling things that @russell9 was doing,, or if there was something deeply flawed within the game itself.

While we are here @russell9, I take it you transferred Ben Winterbottom to Barcelona? Was that with a game editor or did you just make an offer for him in-game and transfer him that way? 

The reason I said something was I hate it when people demand stuff. If it was me I would of said no I aint posting the save now. 

All I am saying is give him time to do it if he wants to do it and if he don't then so be it. Its up to you whether you believe him or not.

[Ronaldo Beckham]

8 minutes ago, rosque said:

I am not pestering him, I and some other people in the community wanna take a look at it.

It has generated a lot views and it should be right to upload it to google drive so that the community can also take a look at it.

If the save file has indeed been doctored and tinkered with 3rd party tools then the SI will just ignore it and nothing will come out of it.

Also, not sure why he does not want to upload it here. His only excuse is that the file is too big. You can upload to other site and I will sacrifice my PC to download it if people are afraid of the virus.

As I said in the post above I hate people demanding stuff in here. If he was blagging it then why would he post the save to the mods on here to take a look at it.

Just let him post it when he is ready and if he doesn't want to then so be it. 

[-Jef-]

I did the experiment as well. For 2 games. Gonna compare stats of keeper-turned-striker to one of my random games to a proper striker.

 

Tis a proper striker stats. 22 attempted passes 72% completed, 13 attempted headers 69% completed, 7 shots 42% on target. Played as poacher in 4231. Got a goal. Against a 3rd team in the league.

 

Two games I played

 

 

Both goals were scored from dead ball - either free kick or indirect free kick and Galović is a center back, Edin is playmaker in the squad.

 

Hajduk are 7th team in the league and just now, in April, avoided relegation.

 

 

11 passes 90% completion, 5 attempted headers 20% completion, 1 shot - not on target.  I played the games - no holiday or IR.

This is why I am interested in the save file, @Ronaldo Beckham, and because he said he will upload it then makes excuses as to why he cannot upload here as well.

Also, this was the table before the experiment and there is far bigger discrepancy in quality between my team and rest in comparison to Lpool and rest of Prem.

[Ronaldo Beckham]

1 minute ago, rosque said:

I did the experiment as well. For 2 games. Gonna compare stats of keeper-turned-striker to one of my random games to a proper striker.

 

Tis a proper striker stats. 22 attempted passes 72% completed, 13 attempted headers 69% completed, 7 shots 42% on target. Played as poacher in 4231. Got a goal. Against a 3rd team in the league.

 

Two games I played

 

 

Both goals were scored from dead ball - either free kick or indirect free kick and Galović is a center back, Edin is playmaker in the squad.

 

Hajduk are 7th team in the league and just now, in April, avoided relegation.

 

 

11 passes 90% completion, 5 attempted headers 20% completion, 1 shot - not on target.  I played the games - no holiday or IR.

This is why I am interested in the save file, @Ronaldo Beckham, and because he said he will upload it then makes excuses as to why he cannot upload here as well.

Also, this was the table before the experiment and there is far bigger discrepancy in quality between my team and rest in comparison to Lpool and rest of Prem.

This is the last thing I am going to say about this as I can imagine the mods and others are getting annoyed with our petty disagreement.

My original point was you feel like you are entitled to have this save file. I was saying stop demanding as its not good behavior. I understand your reasons for wanting but the reason for wanting it doesn't back up your behavior.

If he was lying he will get found out by the mods after he posted them his Barca save. 

Just sit tight and hope he posts it but if he doesn't then life goes on.

Anyway end of subject on my part. Hope you have a nice day buddy.

[russell9]

6 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I asked for the save too. The reason being that with the original save and tactics etc we can use the same parameters. Running our own save then different tactics can produce much different results. 

The reason I asked for the save was to see if there was something flawed with the game in handling things that @russell9 was doing,, or if there was something deeply flawed within the game itself.

While we are here @russell9, I take it you transferred Ben Winterbottom to Barcelona? Was that with a game editor or did you just make an offer for him in-game and transfer him that way? 

Good question! At first i try to sign Ben and guess what he said? He's not interested to enter talk with Barcelona!? I am not sure if that is realistic at all, a 18 years old boy with such reputation turning down Barcelona's offer!?

So what I do, I add a new manager to manage Liverpool and terminate Ben's contract and have my Barca manager sign him up 

[-Jef-]

Lol, I was not demanding since I suggested it

Quote

My suggestion is that you provide save game files here so that anyone can take a look and poke around the games.

and then asked if he could upload both save and suggested where he can upload since he said that total size is too big for direct upload. You sound awfully defensive for us trying to take a peek at save. If nothing has been done to the save, why not upload it? What is the harm since he garnered so much response from the community? If anything you're pestering me for saying I am not in good behavior, au contraire my friend.

All I did was ask for the game save file, suggested alternatives for uploading it and provided proof that I cannot replicate this when I have far superior squad relative to the league than Lpool has.

Another member of the community tried to replicate the experiment in one game and he got this result. Milinković-Savić is the keeper playing up front.

He got even worse results than me. 2 passes, no headers won, no dribbles and only 1 shot - off target. He played his as AF.

As you can see, the doubt is creeping my friend.

There may be something else broken in the game, and OP did not tinker with the save file, but we could never know if he does not provide the save file.

[santy001]

Keep in mind that there is no guarantee of a response from SI that will provide complete satisfaction. A quick look and it may be something that is dead rubber and not worth their time investigating because of X/Y/Z. Hypothetically it could've been an issue they were aware of and have already fixed for FM21 - you'd be amazed how many issues still slip past us all without ever going noticed but still getting fixed. There are no doubt some things you can still do now in FM that are pretty huge and have a massive impact on the game that you won't be able to do in FM21.

Ultimately if actions have been taken in the game that compromise its integrity, then that is naturally going be viewed in a less than positive manner. My understanding is that SI have internal tools that allow them to perform a deep dive on a save file, which is why we encourage that they're offered up. 

Keep in mind that the absolute worst case scenario is it turns out there is a bug in the game. A bug that is completely avoidable, the AI will not utilise and will not have any impact on your game if you just... play the game. Keep in mind that FM lets you do all manner of unrealistic things, it lets you take control of other teams to engineer signings. It lets you take control of your opponents to make them throw a game. The list goes on and on... but most unrealistic of all... it lets you decide to be a football manager. 

I can understand why other players want to have a look as well, there's so many variables involved that there will be questions. My interests as a moderator are of course to see if there is something awry that ultimately helps with the improvement of FM.

[russell9]

18 minutes ago, rosque said:

I am not pestering him, I and some other people in the community wanna take a look at it.

It has generated a lot views and it should be right to upload it to google drive so that the community can also take a look at it.

If the save file has indeed been doctored and tinkered with 3rd party tools then the SI will just ignore it and nothing will come out of it.

Also, not sure why he does not want to upload it here. His only excuse is that the file is too big. You can upload to other site and I will sacrifice my PC to download it if people are afraid of the virus.

Excuse me, but no i have not made any excuses at all. I promised santy I'll upload the save for SI's investigation and I did exactly what I promised.
To be honest you straight away accused me of doctored and tinkered with 3rd party tools has not leave me a good impression to share something with you

[Foxo]

Quick query, what's the tactics, are you playing gegenpress with 2 poachers, pressing forwards etc? Guessing it is gegenpress from first page?

Just played the same game three times with a keeper as lone AF (nothing, no contributions at all), and with lone poacher (3 goals), and again as poacher (another 3 goals). Can see how a team could carry a player at poacher with limited movement, less so at AF. Penalties in really low divisions where pen taking is 1 etc seem to get scored too much in any case, so maybe that's linked to that, not the fact he's a GK.

[Wavelberry]

What is the tactical set up? Is it the same in both the Barca and Liverpool experiements?

[-Jef-]

Few more games, this time as IR and game takes out the keeper/striker at half time. Playing as poacher in 424 wide, same game file as before.

 

v 7th team

 

v 5th team

 

 

That was same 2 games at same point in the save. Played them as poacher in this setup

 

and third game

v 8th team. of 10 teams in the league

 

 

[russell9]

Just now, santy001 said:

Keep in mind that there is no guarantee of a response from SI that will provide complete satisfaction. A quick look and it may be something that is dead rubber and not worth their time investigating because of X/Y/Z. Hypothetically it could've been an issue they were aware of and have already fixed for FM21 - you'd be amazed how many issues still slip past us all without ever going noticed but still getting fixed. There are no doubt some things you can still do now in FM that are pretty huge and have a massive impact on the game that you won't be able to do in FM21.

Ultimately if actions have been taken in the game that compromise its integrity, then that is naturally going be viewed in a less than positive manner. My understanding is that SI have internal tools that allow them to perform a deep dive on a save file, which is why we encourage that they're offered up. 

Keep in mind that the absolute worst case scenario is it turns out there is a bug in the game. A bug that is completely avoidable, the AI will not utilise and will not have any impact on your game if you just... play the game. Keep in mind that FM lets you do all manner of unrealistic things, it lets you take control of other teams to engineer signings. It lets you take control of your opponents to make them throw a game. The list goes on and on... but most unrealistic of all... it lets you decide to be a football manager. 

I can understand why other players want to have a look as well, there's so many variables involved that there will be questions.

It's fine, not really looking for any fix for FM20 at this point of time. I totally agreed FM lets you do all manner of unrealistic things and that's a fun factor actually. I just hope it could be more within reasonable parameters. I have seen too many low quality players scoring wonder goals in FM20 and that's one of the reason I did this experiment after I read the Phil Jones story.

[russell9]

6 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

What is the tactical set up? Is it the same in both the Barca and Liverpool experiements?

Here's the tactical setup for those who are interested. I did not create this tactic it was downloaded from other website and i merely rename it for convenience purpose. It's a pretty good tactic, consistent wins and chances. I believe similar quality tactics should create the same results.
 

[davehanson]

3 minutes ago, russell9 said:

Here's the tactical setup for those who are interested. I did not create this tactic it was downloaded from other website and i merely rename it for convenience purpose. It's a pretty good tactic, consistent wins and chances. I believe similar quality tactics should create the same results.
 

Could you give us just a link to the original tactic, to exactly where you downloaded it from please?

[Wavelberry]

So the question becomes is the tactic OP or is it to do with the game ignoring attributes.

[davehanson]

Just now, Wavelberry said:

So the question becomes is the tactic OP or is it to do with the game ignoring attributes.

Yeah, that's why I would like the original tactic, see if there is something in that. Looking at the TI's it strikes me as just another tactic that ticks everything that the game can't cope with.

[Wavelberry]

3 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Yeah, that's why I would like the original tactic, see if there is something in that. Looking at the TI's it strikes me as just another tactic that ticks everything that the game can't cope with.

Have deleted FM20 but am almost tempted to redownload to get in on this experiment. Different teams and default tactics etc...

[-Jef-]

9 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Have deleted FM20 but am almost tempted to redownload to get in on this experiment. Different teams and default tactics etc...

I did it in 5 games with a tactic that destroy the league otherwise and my striker in that role had 11 in 12 since coming in in January. So either the tactic is broken or something else is going on. Either way, it is obvious that this is keeping some people from buying the game and should be investigated since I cannot produce same results with normal tactic.