FM20 Experiment - Goalkeeper as striker in Liverpool (Inspired by Phil Jones ✕ Paris Saint-Germain)

[XaW]

Oh, if you are wondering why I'm using Lonergan, it's because Alisson starts injured, and Adrian is also out for the first few matches.

[XaW]

In the Community Shield we won 1-0 thanks to Shamal George. He got the ball outside the box and had a good shot into the corner.

[XaW]

First PL match, we won 3-1 over West Ham away, strikers didn't do much.

[XaW]

Next match, lost to Chelsea in the UEFA Super Cup. Nothing from the strikers.

[XaW]

2nd league match. 0-0 draw at home to City. Strikers fluffed everything they got.

[XaW]

3rd league match, 1-1 draw away to Crystal Palace. Goal by George. A long shot he really shouldn't have in his locker.

'

Adrian is injured again, so Lonergan is the goalkeeper for the next weeks.

[XaW]

4th league match. Won 1-0 home to Norwich. George scored his 3rd, in a scrap after a corner.

[XaW]

5th league match away to Newcastle. Milner and Shaqiri out injured so Minamino and Lallana came on to replace them. Unsurprisingly lost to a very defensive side. Next to nothing from the strikers.

[XaW]

1st CL game away to Lyon. Lots of injuries now, including van Dijk. Lost 4-0 as the team dissolved without him in defence. Nothing from the strikers.

[XaW]

6th league match, home to Everton. Lost 0-3, but also got two red cards for Henderson and Robertson. Strikers didn't do anything. Made one sub after the 2nd red card to have a 4-2-2 formation to leave the strikers up top.

[XaW]

EFL cup away to Middlesbrough. Still some injuries and rested a few of the most tired ones except our strikers. Lost 2-0 and strikers did nothing.

[XaW]

7th league match, away to Brighton. 0-0 draw, strikers did nothing.

[XaW]

2nd CL match, home to Porto. Lost 1-4. Strikers didn't do anything. Oh, and rumours about my sacking is looming already.

Edited November 8, 2020 by XaW

[XaW]

8th league match. Lost 0-1 home to Man Utd. Nothing from the strikers.

[XaW]

9th league match, lost 1-0 away to Arsenal. Strikers didn't do anything.

[XaW]

3rd CL game, home to Galatasaray. For whatever reason Ben Winterbottom is suddenly unregistered for the CL (probably when I holidayed), so I brought in Caoimhin Kelleher for him this game. Drew 1-1 with George scoring again after linking up with Shaqiri.

[XaW]

10th league game, at home to Bournemouth. It ended in a 0-0 draw with the strikers doing nothing again, but board didn't fire me...

[XaW]

11th league game, away to Watford. Another 0-0 draw and no action from the strikers. Still not fired.

[XaW]

4th CL match, this time away to Galatasaray. Winterbottom cannot play so Kelleher steps in. Lost 2-0 and nothing from the strikers. Still not sacked.

[XaW]

12th league match, home to Leicester. Lost 2-0 and Vardy missed a pen as well. Nothing from my strikers. STILL not fired!

[XaW]

13th league game, away to Burnely. Lost 1-0 with the strikers not doing much. And then I got sacked...

[XaW]

So the end of the experiment. 15th place and knocked out of CL and EFL Cup... So either the OP here had an amazing tactic they used to get this to work, or there's some shenanigans going on.

I've uploaded my save, so anyone can take a look.

https://gofile.io/d/30mix9

For what it's worth, I think the fact that I got Shamal George to score 3 times is too much, but really, this happened as I expected it to. I've had games with Liverpool before using a similar tactic and playing normally, and I'm fighting for the title then, so the goalkeepers playing as strikers, have had an impact.

 

[-Jef-]

7 minutes ago, XaW said:

 or there's some shenanigans going on.

 

 

Unfortunately we will never know cos he doesn't wanna upload the save cos he's scared cos I mentioned 3rd party tools.

Thanks for doing the experiment!

Edited November 8, 2020 by rosque

[XaW]

8 minutes ago, rosque said:

Unfortunately we will never know cos he doesn't wanna upload the save cos he's scared cos I mentioned 3rd party tools.

Thanks for doing the experiment!

Yeah, I can`t know for sure, but it was not anything close for me. I lost hard doing this. Perhaps some Diablo-esque tactic can work, but I`d doubt a normal one can do it...

[bananatableleg]

7 hours ago, XaW said:

Yeah, I can`t know for sure, but it was not anything close for me. I lost hard doing this. Perhaps some Diablo-esque tactic can work, but I`d doubt a normal one can do it...

Did you stay on Balanced mentality throughout every match?

[XaW]

43 minutes ago, bananatableleg said:

Did you stay on Balanced mentality throughout every match?

For the experiment, yes. No chances to tactic, except for the game with the two red cards.

It's as close to the original one since he said he used a basic 4-4-2 gegenpress, but I can't know for sure.

[Zemahh]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

It's as close to the original one since he said he used a basic 4-4-2 gegenpress, but I can't know for sure.

This is the tactic @russell9 used:

A fair bit more aggressive than yours, which I think is the crux of the matter. It looks very close to Knap's 4-4-2, which is one of the best performing tactics this year.

[steam just is]

10 minutes ago, XaW said:

For the experiment, yes. No chances to tactic, except for the game with the two red cards.

It's as close to the original one since he said he used a basic 4-4-2 gegenpress, but I can't know for sure.

Makes me a bit more optimistic about the game I guess

[XaW]

10 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

This is the tactic @russell9 used:

A fair bit more aggressive than yours, which I think is the crux of the matter. It looks very close to Knap's 4-4-2, which is one of the best performing tactics this year.

Yeah, I've heard Knap's worked well this year, but those does not exactly create what I'd call realistic results anyway. From what I've seen, you can win anything with anyone with that, so no wonder his went better than mine. Still, using those kinds of tactics won't exactly give a representative view of the game, it will show extremes, and well, goalkeepers scoring as strikers is an extreme.

[XaW]

Just for the record, I think everyone should play the game as they like. I mean, it's their game and it won't affect my enjoyment of the game. However, claiming this shows the game is flawed isn't helpful when using tactics designed to break the game.

[edk77]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

For the experiment, yes. No chances to tactic, except for the game with the two red cards.

It's as close to the original one since he said he used a basic 4-4-2 gegenpress, but I can't know for sure.

From the look of it, your tactic is not even remotely close to the one shown by op. You are Liverpool, the best team in the league, yet you play with balance mentality and you only have one attacking role in your entire setup!? The default gegenpress tactic has positive mentality and three to four attacking roles.

Looks like you are trying to make the outcome as bad as possible.

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

However, claiming this shows the game is flawed isn't helpful when using tactics designed to break the game.

The thing is though, are they really designed to "break the game"? They're simply tactics utilizing roles and instructions that tend to work well, it's not like the tactic above is using some crazy shape or other cheating methods outside of what the game itself offers. At the end of the day, this is the exact reason why we're locked into a bunch of preset roles and duties with hardcoded behaviors (match engine could simply not cope if users were given total tactical freedom), so I think claiming such tactics are "unrealistic anyway" is all too often a cop-out.

I know my view is probably too simplistic for this quagmire of a 10+ (?) year-old match engine, which probably no one even knows how it works anymore (constant struggle of trying to balance some things, only to break others), but in my opinion such tactics could very simply be eradicated if players' Stamina and Fitness levels played a bigger part. There's already an Intensity indicator, so clearly the game recognizes extremely intense tactics like the one above; this is when the game should say "okay, this tactic is WAY too intense for the levels of Stamina and Work Rate your team possesses, so while it may work well for 30 minutes, your Condition and long-term Fatigue levels will start getting penalized heavily after that, which may end up in your team falling apart completely as the season goes on". If this is something you kept up throughout the whole season, without being an elite team with good enough squad depth and appropriate training methods, your team should absolutely become injury ridden. I feel something like this would then force players to take a more sensible approach, rather than play ping-pong football because the match engine simply rewards it more than other tactical approaches. My guess is majority of casual players just want to create a tactic that works well, without being too bothered about realism or replicating certain playing styles.

This thread seems to be an extreme example of just how unbalanced the match engine can be when it comes to certain tactics. On one side, a sensible tactic with sensible results and on the other, a slightly different tactic (same shape, but more aggressive instructions) that makes even goalkeepers score (probably because of the sheer number of chances it creates). In my opinion, this should be something developers of a game that prides itself as the most realistic football simulation on the market, absolutely take very seriously. "Just use sensible tactics, d'oh!" doesn't really do it for me.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Zemahh

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, edk77 said:

From the look of it, your tactic is not even remotely close to the one shown by op. You are Liverpool, the best team in the league, yet you play with balance mentality and you only have one attacking role in your entire setup!? The default gegenpress tactic has positive mentality and three to four attacking roles.

Looks like you are trying to make the outcome as bad as possible.

No, I opened the game, started the pre-set gegenpress and chose a 4-4-2 and didn't touch it from there. Go ahead, do the same and see that you'll get the same tactic. I didn't try to make anything, I went in assuming the strikers would fail, but I didn't take any measures to make anything happen. I showed what I did and uploaded the save. Could the tactic be better? Sure, but the OP set a flat 4-4-2 gegenpress, and I did the same, based on pre-sets.

[edk77]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

No, I opened the game, started the pre-set gegenpress and chose a 4-4-2 and didn't touch it from there. Go ahead, do the same and see that you'll get the same tactic. I didn't try to make anything, I went in assuming the strikers would fail, but I didn't take any measures to make anything happen. I showed what I did and uploaded the save. Could the tactic be better? Sure, but the OP set a flat 4-4-2 gegenpress, and I did the same, based on pre-sets.

Nah, you are not even trying to play normally. If you do, you will at least make sure the setup and roles are well balanced and it suit the team's quality.
It's clear that your intention is to play down this as much as possible by showcasing a failed result with unappropriate setup.

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

The thing is though, are they really designed to "break the game"? They're simply tactics utilizing roles and instructions that tend to work well, it's not like the tactic above is using some crazy shape or other cheating methods outside of what the game itself offers. At the end of the day, this is the exact reason why we're locked into a bunch of preset roles and duties with hardcoded behaviors (match engine could simply not cope if users were given total tactical freedom), so I think claiming such tactics are "unrealistic anyway" is all too often a cop-out.

I know my view is probably too simplistic for this quagmire of a 10+ (?) year-old match engine, which probably no one even knows how it works anymore (constant struggle of trying to balance some things, only to break others), but in my opinion such tactics could very simply be eradicated if players' Stamina and Fitness levels played a bigger part. There's already an Intensity indicator, so clearly the game recognizes extremely intense tactics like the one above; this is when the game should say "okay, this tactic is WAY too intense for the levels of Stamina and Work Rate your team possesses, so while it may work well for 30 minutes, your Condition and long-term Fatigue levels will start getting penalized heavily after that, which may end up in your team falling apart completely as the season goes on". If this is something you kept up throughout the whole season, without being an elite team with good enough squad depth and appropriate training methods, your team should absolutely become injury ridden. I feel something like this would then force players to take a more sensible approach, rather than play ping-pong football because the match engine simply rewards it more than other tactical approaches. My guess is majority of casual players just want to create a tactic that works well, without being too bothered about realism or replicating certain playing styles.

This thread seems to be an extreme example of just how unbalanced the match engine can be when it comes to certain tactics. On one side, a sensible tactic with sensible results and on the other, a slightly different tactic (same shape, but more aggressive instructions) that makes even goalkeepers score (probably because of the sheer number of chances it creates). In my opinion, this should be something developers of a game that prides itself as the most realistic football simulation on the market should absolutely take very seriously. "Just use sensible tactics, d'oh!" doesn't really do it for me.

Well, if you look at the tactic itself, it doesn't make much sense in general, and it's going towards the extreme of things. So, while I think tactics like that should fail, I also can see why SI focus on making their match engine work on a normal tactics really.

I do agree those kinds of tactics should not work as well as they do, and I hope SI keep making strides towards handling it.

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, edk77 said:

Nah, you are not even trying to play normally. If you do, you will at least make sure the setup and roles are well balanced and it suit the team's quality.
It's clear that your intention is to play down this as much as possible by showcasing a failed result with unappropriate setup.

What are you on about? I used a preset gegenpress 4-4-2 and I said so myself. If you think it's faulty, then do the same yourself. I don't have any intent here, I thought the OP had a very suspicious result, so I would try it with a preset and see how it went.

[Daveincid]

My opinion about this all:

is it realistic? Like @XaW said, it's not when you use a tactic that is close to exploit the ME.  Generally a goalkeeper is mentally strong, has a good fitness and is tall. All these attributes are benefitial for a goalscorer. If you then have worldclass players in midfield that deliver the balls to you, why shouldn't they score? I would be much more concerned when you would put the goalkeepers on the wing with a wing-based tactic with success. Or in the CM and they create as lot of chances and assists. But in the final position as a striker? 

 

Cheers

 

Daveincid

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

My opinion about this all:

is it realistic? Like @XaW said, it's not when you use a tactic that is close to exploit the ME.  Generally a goalkeeper is mentally strong, has a good fitness and is tall. All these attributes are benefitial for a goalscorer. If you then have worldclass players in midfield that deliver the balls to you, why shouldn't they score? I would be much more concerned when you would put the goalkeepers on the wing with a wing-based tactic with success. Or in the CM and they create as lot of chances and assists. But in the final position as a striker? 

Cheers

Daveincid

Yeah, for me it's kind of extreme input -> extreme output.

That said, I'd like for the game to handle it, and there are many things to criticise the game for. I just think hyperbole like this to "show how bad the match engine is" should be based around a more normal tactic, at least as the baseline. And the extreme could well be an outlier that should be handled, but claiming this is "normal" just doesn't cut it for me. Especially when the OP doesn't want to upload to show anything. He could have save scummed or used the IGE for all we know.

My test is most likely flawed (the tactic could be vastly better and I could have utilised team meetings and such to help with morale, etc), and at least it's a very tiny sample size, but I uploaded it and showed everything I did.

Even so, probably will most ignore what I did and point and scream because someone on the internet claim something without proof. So Trump-isms as usual on the internet...

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb XaW:

Yeah, for me it's kind of extreme input -> extreme output.

That said, I'd like for the game to handle it, and there are many things to criticise the game for. I just think hyperbole like this to "show how bad the match engine is" should be based around a more normal tactic, at least as the baseline. And the extreme could well be an outlier that should be handled, but claiming this is "normal" just doesn't cut it for me. Especially when the OP doesn't want to upload to show anything. He could have save scummed or used the IGE for all we know.

My test is most likely flawed (the tactic could be vastly better and I could have utilised team meetings and such to help with morale, etc), and at least it's a very tiny sample size, but I uploaded it and showed everything I did.

Even so, probably will most ignore what I did and point and scream because someone on the internet claim something without proof. So Trump-isms as usual on the internet...

For me it's like in many other areas. You can show facts as facts but without showing the way on what exactly they are based on is very controversial.  In the end we all share opinions and this moves the game forward

[scarp]

So I tried this myself. Assman handled instructions and team talks.

Jároš played all the games, Winterbottom played PL & cups and Kelleher played in CL (as I cba with the registration)

Conclusion: Tactic is op but goalkeepers do not score the goals at all. They're the worst players on the pitch in every game. I'd call IGE usage on OP.

I may finish the season after work today. Can provide save if someone wants to have a look.

E: I used quick selection by assman every game + swapped attackers for goalies. f.e Henderson got injured in first game that's why he only played once.

Edited November 9, 2020 by scarp

[russell9]

13 hours ago, scarp said:

So I tried this myself. Assman handled instructions and team talks.

Jároš played all the games, Winterbottom played PL & cups and Kelleher played in CL (as I cba with the registration)

Conclusion: Tactic is op but goalkeepers do not score the goals at all. They're the worst players on the pitch in every game. I'd call IGE usage on OP.

I may finish the season after work today. Can provide save if someone wants to have a look.

E: I used quick selection by assman every game + swapped attackers for goalies. f.e Henderson got injured in first game that's why he only played once.

Save has been submitted to SI, if in game editor was used to make the GKs godly then this thread would not have exists anymore. I hope someone from SI who have analysed the save could comment on this.

How did you play out the match? If you holiday, the assistant manager will always substitute both GKs and they will have no chance to perform.
Also, which year is this Liverpool in? I notice many players who does not belongs to original Liverpool team.

For anyone who are trying or plan to try, I suggest these settings for the optimum environment for the GKs and the team to perform well
- Pick the best team in the league.
- Pick a tactic that can consistent win and provide enough chances for the strikers.
- Do not holiday or skip the match to prevent assistant manager substitute them. You shall not substitute both GKs too no matter what rating they got in match, they may have a rating of 4-6 throughout the whole match and then boom, they score goals in the last minute.
- Do not allow assistant manager to handle instructions to prevent any instructions set for the GKs.
- Do not make any transfer which may disrupt team cohesion.
- Set training intensity to minimum to avoid injuries.
- Set both GKs as first choice penalty taker.

If you would like to use the same tactic in my test just download this plug and play instead of manually set it based on tactic screen.
https://community.sigames.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=395691
 

[scarp]

@russell9 It is 2019 year, I did not do any transfers. I played the games myself, no holiday/IR. I used the same tactic as you did. I never subbed any of the goalkeepers. 

[orlyzao]

I'm trying this with Benfica and Svilar is actually my top goalscorer, though his overall match contribution is pretty weak, like he finishes matches with 5 or 6 completed passes. He did make a cool assist and also just scored an equalizer against Juventus for the Champions League

https://streamable.com/2p59e7

https://streamable.com/qi25ed

With that said, he's the only keeper that has managed to score yet (8 goals in 12 matches and only 1 came from penalty).

Edited November 10, 2020 by orlyzao

[russell9]

1 hour ago, scarp said:

@russell9 It is 2019 year, I did not do any transfers. I played the games myself, no holiday/IR. I used the same tactic as you did. I never subbed any of the goalkeepers. 

Your screenshot is showing players not from original Liverpool squad, there must be some transfer done. I would suggest to disable first transfer window. Also, your penalty taker is Milner so you should change to both GKs, it will boost them to perform better after scoring a penalty.

Btw, did you play the friendlies too or just holiday? Friendlies should not be holiday or skip too or both GKs will always be substituted and will not have enough game time to gel with the team and will not perform well when the league start.

Lastly, your tactic screen is showing different tactic name than mine. Either you have rename it or you did not load the tactic file at all but just copy the team instructions which means you will miss out the player instructions.

[russell9]

58 minutes ago, orlyzao said:

I'm trying this with Benfica and Svilar is actually my top goalscorer, though his overall match contribution is pretty weak, like he finishes matches with 5 or 6 completed passes. He did make a cool assist and also just scored an equalizer against Juventus for the Champions League

https://streamable.com/2p59e7

https://streamable.com/qi25ed

With that said, he's the only keeper that has managed to score yet (8 goals in 12 matches and only 1 came from penalty).

Good job! He score like a great striker there, slick movement and shooting skills 

[upthetoon]

Please do the test for this in fm21 beta. Very curious. 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, upthetoon said:

Please do the test for this in fm21 beta. Very curious. 

Doubt he will, no exploit tactics made yet, I'd assume.

I won't bother doing it again, I'll rather enjoy the new ME. It's really, really good!

[russell9]

19 hours ago, XaW said:

Doubt he will, no exploit tactics made yet, I'd assume.

I won't bother doing it again, I'll rather enjoy the new ME. It's really, really good!

He'll be back 
 

[upthetoon]

On 12/11/2020 at 20:02, russell9 said:

He'll be back 
 

Did you report it to SI? Any opinions you have on why this is happening? 

[russell9]

On 15/11/2020 at 09:51, upthetoon said:

Did you report it to SI? Any opinions you have on why this is happening? 

Need more test but so far there is improvement as the GKs are not as effective as in FM20. Their goals are fewer and their ratings are lower. That's a good sign.