Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[dindle]

How would you recommend scaling the mentality for a lone striker/attacking-midfielder-acting-as-advanced-forward formation?

[axehan1]

Do you mean if you want use a role theory tactic? Its not in the game, its just back 4 will be defense, DM/MC(d) will be defense/support, MC(a) will be support, wingers or left and right mid will be support/attack, strikes will be attack, and AMs will be attack.

if you're using 2 strikers one would be an fcd with support mentality,so he drops into the hole and links wingers/midfielfd/ fca.

[Giantplaything]

I just have to say this guide (and its previous incarnations) has been a saviour of my sanity for a long time now.

Breaking down everything so that the more tactically challenged of us can follow whats going on with sliders gives us the chance to tinker with settings and untimately learn from it. I know I feel like I've accomplished more when its at least partially my tactic and not somebodys I've downloaded.

So, as they say, this Buds for you. you tactical heroes you

[vasilli07]

Is there any mentality framework for Guus Hiddink? Or is he similar to any managers that are named in the pdf file?

[wwfan]

I haven't seen enough of Hiddink's teams, but from what I have seen he seems to be quite authoritarian. However, he does like some flair in the final third, which, for me, would make him similar to Ferguson in mentality style.

[Corkey]

is TT&F for 4-4-2's only, or can they be translated into other formations?

[crouchaldinho]

Can be translated into anything you want.

[Corkey]

Can be translated into anything you want.

ow right ok, thanks mate

[cpz]

Hey guys.. I made a good tactic and it seems to work. I read the TT but i did not base everything on the theorems

I won 9 out of 15 matches but even it the games i won the other team seems to have more shots on goal.

Fixtures

Tactc

TI

Any quick tips on how to get more good chances?

[vasilli07]

Hey guys.. I made a good tactic and it seems to work. I read the TT but i did not base everything on the theorems

I won 9 out of 15 matches but even it the games i won the other team seems to have more shots on goal.

Fixtures

Tactc

TI

Any quick tips on how to get more good chances?

What skin are you using?

[cpz]

lol thnx for the reply..

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=118430

Actually i downloaded here..

http://www.sortitoutsi.net/2009/graphics/downloads/1210/SUSIE%20Skin

[Corkey]

guys, if i was going to create an 4-3-3 (mourinho style), how would i set up the striker, ie poacher, complete, etc.??

[TigerJoe]

If you want to play like MOURINHO have a strong target man who is strong enough to hold up the ball but is also lethal in the air and can score goals when needed

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

wwfan a question.....

In previous years you have given guides for which tactic to use depending on media prediction however I do not recall seeing a complete FM09 specific version. This would not be a problem however I have yet to find a circumstance where the "Attacking" variant is appropriate, whenever it seems it could be the best choice I have discovered that "Standard" or more often "Control" are far more effective.

I would love to hear your advice regarding this.

PS Can you do anything to promote this thread more, it is averaging only 1 Post per day now yet general Posts elsewhere complaining about the "Unwinability" of the game still proliferate.

[Uncle_Sam]

So, my biggest problem right now is when I go up 2-0 against equal or weaker teams. Suggestions?

[pilsken]

Im going to use the 5x5 theory but i do have one question,

If im using the 5x5 theory (or any theory mentioned), all the players are on individual mentality. What do i do with the slider for the team instruction mentality? Leave it in the middle or do i change it some how? Does it override the individual instructions?

Please help me out

[TwoShedsJackson]

So, my biggest problem right now is when I go up 2-0 against equal or weaker teams. Suggestions?

This depends on a lot of other factors: are you at home or away? Playing well or scored against the run of play? Morale of your team/their team, recent runs of results? Important game or not - are they a rival of your club etc. etc.

What do i do with the slider for the team instruction mentality? Leave it in the middle or do i change it some how? Does it override the individual instructions?

If you're using all individual mentalities you can leave the team slider in the middle, it is over-ridden by the individual sliders.

[axehan1]

This depends on a lot of other factors: are you at home or away? Playing well or scored against the run of play? Morale of your team/their team, recent runs of results? Important game or not - are they a rival of your club etc. etc.

If you're using all individual mentalities you can leave the team slider in the middle, it is over-ridden by the individual sliders.

so are individual instructions the only thing worth looking at?if i want to play attacking do i just leave the team mentality on global and move the players sliders?

[TwoShedsJackson]

so are individual instructions the only thing worth looking at?if i want to play attacking do i just leave the team mentality on global and move the players sliders?

That's it - if you set the players to have all individual mentalities, these take precedence over the global setting.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

That's it - if you set the players to have all individual mentalities, these take precedence over the global setting.

Actually I believe that is not a fact, it is debateable. There is suggestion that Individual settings are biased higher or lower than the setting they represent depending on Team setting slider position. As I say, it is not fact one way or the other - or so I am led to believe.

[Millie]

Actually I believe that is not a fact, it is debateable. There is suggestion that Individual settings are biased higher or lower than the setting they represent depending on Team setting slider position. As I say, it is not fact one way or the other - or so I am led to believe.

Maybe not, but it has been confirmed by the game developers themselves. Paul Collyer has said so.

Now... whether there's a consequence that the game makers didn't intend with some sort of relationship between team and individual, that's a different issue. But the makers say that individual will ALWAYS overide team, apart from the two extremes of team mentality (all out attack; ultra defensive).

[heathxxx]

Maybe not, but it has been confirmed by the game developers themselves. Paul Collyer has said so.

Now... whether there's a consequence that the game makers didn't intend with some sort of relationship between team and individual, that's a different issue. But the makers say that individual will ALWAYS overide team, apart from the two extremes of team mentality (all out attack; ultra defensive).

I believe there may well be some consequences that may possibly been overlooked, though I can't put my finger on any specifics in technical detail, I can hazard a guess at one or two things. This being in situations where I've seen considerable changes having made team setting changes that aren't involving the two extreme mentality sliders.

Team-talks clearly have a powerful influence on performance and when the user gets it right at half-time for example, they can see a big difference in performance, which they might attribute more to any global changes they've made.

The tempo slider is only available in the team settings and I find this can have a great deal of influence. This sort of change can be made without any effects on individual instructions.

What has made me wonder though, is having detailed individual instructions set, such as passing, tackling, etc, that can also be changed in the team settings. I've noticed that I can have all my players set to short passing for example, yet seem to notice a difference in the passing style of my team when I select "direct" in the team settings.

There's a number of times when I've made team settings which shouldn't make any difference, but in actual fact, have.

If this is an unintended side effect that SI have never spotted during their testing, I'm not sure, but it is something I have spotted. It might be possible that I have on a few occasions just have hit a "glitch" of some sort that allows team settings to override individual settings in certain cercumstances, I'm not sure. What I can say is that I have noticed considerable differences myself.

If it's worth SI looking at, I can't say. Only perhaps if a wider number of people notice the same thing as I have from time to time.

[Millie]

One little thing to remember though - with so many variables it's difficult to know whether your tactical changes made the difference or whether the same effect would have been acheived by watching the second half without pants on.

Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that.

I do agree though. Semi-target men were unintended, and they most certainly did exist. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that team and individual sliders may not work exactly as intended. It all depends on what precise values the ME uses, and I guess for this we'll never know.

What I would say is that it's probably best to start your tactic building on the assumption that there is no link, and then start playing around with these things once you have a semi-decent base from which to work.

[heathxxx]

One little thing to remember though - with so many variables it's difficult to know whether your tactical changes made the difference or whether the same effect would have been acheived by watching the second half without pants on.

Damn Millie! You discovered my TOP SECRET tactical advantage... everyone will be doing it now!

[Miksu]

What has made me wonder though, is having detailed individual instructions set, such as passing, tackling, etc, that can also be changed in the team settings. I've noticed that I can have all my players set to short passing for example, yet seem to notice a difference in the passing style of my team when I select "direct" in the team settings.

If I don't remember wrong there was some debate on the subject when FM'06 (or was it 07) was released. Some user run tests with team and individual mentality settings. Tests were run so that all the players had individual mentality settings but in each test team mentality was changed. The conclusion was that changing team mentality seemed to have an effect based on the number of shots on goal.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Maybe not, but it has been confirmed by the game developers themselves. Paul Collyer has said so.

Now... whether there's a consequence that the game makers didn't intend with some sort of relationship between team and individual, that's a different issue. But the makers say that individual will ALWAYS overide team, apart from the two extremes of team mentality (all out attack; ultra defensive).

That's interesting I missed that Post by PC. Not denying it is true but even relatively recent debate by knowledgeable FM09'ers contradicts that (suggesting an SI to consumer communication issue). It seems a shame that 6 months on there is still debate on this and many other issues which are not theoretical but fact about the game mechanisms, I think SI at the very least should tell us how the game "works" and in some detail otherwise our "theorising" could be barking totally up the wrong tree and "the variables" would mask positive playtesting.

[Miksu]

It seems a shame that 6 months on there is still debate on this and many other issues which are not theoretical but fact about the game mechanisms, I think SI at the very least should tell us how the game "works" and in some detail otherwise our "theorising" could be barking totally up the wrong tree and "the variables" would mask positive playtesting.

This is why I see the "Tactical wizard" as an important part of the future releases. Players shouldn't have to worry about obscure sliders and this is where the wizard steps in. The wizard knows the game engine and if you, as a player, want to use a 4-4-2 tactic with an advanced playmaker, wizard creates a tactic like that for you. IMHO all the sliders ranging from 1 to 20 should be removed from the game and replaced with the tactical wizard.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

This is why I see the "Tactical wizard" as an important part of the future releases. Players shouldn't have to worry about obscure sliders and this is where the wizard steps in. The wizard knows the game engine and if you, as a player, want to use a 4-4-2 tactic with an advanced playmaker, wizard creates a tactic like that for you. IMHO all the sliders ranging from 1 to 20 should be removed from the game and replaced with the tactical wizard.

I love the Wizard idea too but as some slider combo's contradict each other when setting non-contradictory instructions (at present) I wonder if either:

A/ The wizard will do things previously thought impossible with the current tactical engine purely by creative slider combos.

B/ More sliders will be introduced to counter this issue! (these may be hidden - Wizard opperable only).

I hope sliders stay accessible & tweakable as at present for those that want them though

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

A thought....

I have been thinking about PPM's and exploiting strengths / weaknessess with them. So far I have had little luck exploiting opponents but I have a theory for protecting my own weaknessess / expoiting strengths.

EG If I have a DMC who likes to "dwell on the ball" surely lower creative freedom would discourage him doing this. Likewise an AML who likes to run with the ball should be given greater CF to encourage these runs?

Is this how it works?

Also wwfans document suggests that maybe +4 / -4 tweaks to the advised model slider setting are best to keep the shape whilst giving flexibility, is that agreed as correct?. Would that be the same for the CF issue I raised above or should extreme "1" or "20" settings be considered wiser to maximise advantage over the AI team.

[drobbo12]

sorry if this sounds a bit stupid but i don't understand the theory names in the crib sheet?

[Corkey]

hi guys, just a quick question, is this designed by the people who made FM09 or are they just fans?

cheers

[vasilli07]

Fans, if I'm not wrong, they are testers of the game too.

[Corkey]

Fans, if I'm not wrong, they are testers of the game too.

ow right. cool thnax

[iTry]

Can I get some opinions please? In an 'effective strike partnership' would you prefer:

Option A:

FCd

Mentality: -2 from team

Creative Freedom: 10

Forward Runs: Mixed

Run With Ball: Mixed

Long Shots: Often

Through Balls: Often

Cross Ball: Mixed

Hold Up Ball

FCa

Mentality: +2

Creative Freedom: 15

Forward Runs: Often

Run With Ball: Often

Long Shots: Rarely

Through Balls: Mixed

Cross Ball: Mixed

Free Role

Or

Option B:

FCd

Mentality: -2 from team

Creative Freedom: 15

Forward Runs: Mixed

Run With Ball: Mixed

Long Shots: Often

Through Balls: Often

Cross Ball: Mixed

Free Role

FCa

Mentality: +2

Creative Freedom: 10

Forward Runs: Often

Run With Ball: Often

Long Shots: Rarely

Through Balls: Mixed

Cross Ball: Mixed

Hold Up Ball

[Colorado]

Love this thread, one thing which I'm still uncertain of however-

Does height make a difference in the game??

I'm playing at a lower level so would like to think having a 6ft2 centre forward playing against a 5ft9 centre back gives me something to go on.

I've heard people both confirm and deny that height actually makes a difference within the game so can one of the experts here, finally confirm whether it does or not!

Thanks!!

[iTry]

There's a bit of debate on this and I'm sure we've been given no clear answer. I want to believe that it makes a difference but I doubt it does.

One of my reasons for this is that the German national team copies the attributes of existing German players in the database to play for them.

Essentially, they are those players but without their name. However, the height and weight attributes aren't mimicked in these players profiles which leads me to believe there is no importance of it.

For example, the German goalkeeper has the same attributes as Rene Adler but stands 5"2 tall. This should affect him when goalkeeping so height and weight should make an impact on the game. If it doesn't already, or SI should make it so that the height and weight attributes are 'copied across' to the 'fake' players.

[WoollenGreg]

It's a lovely piece of work you have here guys, but something I've always wanted to know wwfan is, have you had much success incorporating your ideas into fm?

[wwfan]

It's a lovely piece of work you have here guys, but something I've always wanted to know wwfan is, have you had much success incorporating your ideas into fm?

Yes. A lot.

Does height make a difference in the game??

I'm playing at a lower level so would like to think having a 6ft2 centre forward playing against a 5ft9 centre back gives me something to go on.

I've heard people both confirm and deny that height actually makes a difference within the game so can one of the experts here, finally confirm whether it does or not!

No. Aerial ability is determined by jumping, with strength and positioning also being important. Height is cosmetic, apart from marking at corners.

is this designed by the people who made FM09 or are they just fans?

Just fans, but we have a lot of contact with certain SI employees.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I copied this piece from one of my own Posts - I suspect it is more relevant to this forum although the Official Ipswich thread was a good starting point of reference. Any thoughts on my Counago tweaks? (General opinion on my thoughts rather than any "Counago specific" debating please).

"After a whole weekend (apart from the bit where we played Rockband!) playing my new Ipswich save game I have JUST reached the end of the pre-season friendlies -I like to take my time! Home vs Reading tonight, the big "kick-off". I have an observation (though note that the performances referred to were against Lowestoft / Felixstowe & other equally poor non league teams).

I noted that the Ass Man (note I am using the "Muppet Management" ethos) in match was complaining that Counago (one of my best SC's) was "poor at shooting" (I forget the exact wording), & his match rating was poor. I wanted to give him a continued run out so I maximised his RWB & TTB hoping that his involvement would remain the same but he would get less shots away. Twice to my amazement he turned on the style & scored 2 goals running & dribbling from deep and finishing from close in). So I think (testing at a higher level pending) that this maximises Counagos abilities, note he is playing an FCd role (with Makukula ahead at FCa, and very prolific)."

[WoollenGreg]

Yes. A lot.

Just what sort of teams or leagues have you managed in using your theories? I ask because I have used certain elements of your work and combined it with my own tactic and currently doing really well with a conference south team, maybe abit too well to be honest.

[iTry]

Please can I get a response on post #1284

[wwfan]

Please can I get a response on post #1284

I'd use option B but reverse forward runs. I'd also lower by one notch for more aggressive strategies.

Just what sort of teams or leagues have you managed in using your theories? I ask because I have used certain elements of your work and combined it with my own tactic and currently doing really well with a conference south team, maybe abit too well to be honest.

Every English division from BSS to Premiership. I won them all bar L2, which I would have won had I taken over the side slightly earlier in the season. As it was, I finished second. Premiership (twice), League Cup (twice), FA Cup (once) and UEFA Cup with Wycombe (one season winning all four), and expect to win the CL in the next season or two. Outside of England, I have won the Portuguese Double with Porto, came first in Scottish Division One and won the Scottish Challenge Cup with Morton and fourth in the Danish League with Randers.

[iTry]

I'd use option B but reverse forward runs. I'd also lower by one notch for more aggressive strategies.

I'm sorry but I don't quite know what you mean by 'lower by one notch'. Please could you explain this? Sorry and thanks in advance.

[vasilli07]

I'm sorry but I don't quite know what you mean by 'lower by one notch'. Please could you explain this? Sorry and thanks in advance.

Should be his mentality if I'm not wrong.

[iTry]

Would this mean on an attack minded tactic

FCd

Mentality: -3 from team

FCa

Mentality: +1 from team

[daleuk8]

WWfan any advice on what system to use in certain situations? it's just things seem to changed slightly in the new patch

[WoollenGreg]

WWFan, when do you think it is the best time to incorporate specialist roles such as box to box midfielder or the like?

[VinnyliciouS]

I have created an XML Pack including every theorem covered in this thread. The pack consists of two xmls for each theorem: 4-4-2 Standard and 4-5-1 Standard. Please read the README.txt file before using this.

Download link: http://rapidshare.com/files/226453728/TTF_.xml.zip.html

Alternative: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P0RD96V6

EDIT: Feel free to use this, distribute it and include it in future releases if you feel it is beneficial.

could you explain more pls? how to use it and how should this work? i dont get it

[iTry]

On the tactics screen in the game, there is a 'Set To' button on the specific player instructions screen.

When you click on this button, it gives you a drop-down list of positions and selecting one of these will give you the specific player instructions for that position as specified in the tactical_templates.xml file found in C:\Program Files\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2009\data\tactics.

The link in that post gives you a .zip file containing the tactical_templates.xml file for each of the theories covered in this thread:

2-6-2 Theory
5x5 Theory
Bands of Two
Global
Libero Defence
Nike Defence
Role Theory
Rule of One

It has two tactical_templates.xml files for each theory, a standard 4-4-2 and a standard 4-5-1. You can copy the tactical_templates.xml file from the theory and formation that you want and replace the one in C:\Program Files\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2009\data\tactics with it. This will enable you to use the 'Set To' button to assign specific player instructions based on the theory that you prefer.

[ShirazS]

I have a question and if someone could answer it, I would be very grateful. Okay I play a 4-4-2 with all the midfielders set to FWD often. The Fullbacks have FWD set to mixed and the Centre halves set to FWD rarely. I also play a global mentality. Without changing any of this or the mentality, how could I make my team a touch more defensive?