Just found something amazing!!! Must see!!!

[Mitja]

maybe this explains why Srna is so good in the game (too many natural and acomplished positions). as far as i remember his weak foot is not very poor...

[zeusbheld]

He is rubbish....He cant use his left foot!!!

not much good at marking or tackling either. some "must see" this turned out to be.

[DJ]

Guess SI should tweak it so that if someone tries to exploit this loophole

-the player becomes unhappy

-his stats fall through the floor quickly

But, frankly, anyone actually exploiting this are lame. Chances are they cheat their way throughout the game anyway, so why moan about 'realism'?

[Ljuba82]

For all of you who think "well you just don't exploit it"...

...that doesn't change the fact that such things SHOULDN't HAPPEN...

[03bault]

nniiiiceee

[DANNY1000000]

barry thread

[DJ]

For all of you who think "well you just don't exploit it"...

...that doesn't change the fact that such things SHOULDN't HAPPEN...

I have my own reasoning for why they shouldn't happen, but what exactly is your reason for saying that?

[outlander]

I think it's possible to have a DC/ST regen, so it will be a massive flaw then.

Also I'm pretty sure that there are such players already in database.

[Schotsmannetje]

It doesn't "really have to be fixed" because 99.9% of people are not going to work it out and hence not going to have a problem with it! And those that do know can choose not to exploit it, if they so wish.

So if there's a flaw in the law that can make you a millionaire without having to do much, and you chose to exploit it, it would be your fault instead of the incompetent bastards that call themselves politicians? Because that's the way you're reasoning right now. It just shouldn't be possible.

I'd really be surprised if SI would say: "Well as long as you don't use it you'll be fine." That's like saying: "As long as people don't see them, mistakes are perfectly alright."

Of course there are a few rare examples of players that have changed position over the years, like Nesta (striker --> DC), Gallas (striker --> DC), and Barthez (striker --> GK) but it is safe to say that they are all not much of a goalscorer anymore. Like MSCCG said.

[Suttface]

I don't think this will be addressed soon. As I understand it, bugs are given ratings and then sorted in terms of priority. Game-breaking bugs are sorted first, then major gameplay flaws, and so on. The fact that you have to cheat to exploit this means that it is not a major issue (it doesn't physically stop people playing the game) and therefore will be way down the SI 'to do' list. They have got other things to look at in terms of graphic card compatibility and so on, I don't think it is reasonable to expect SI to devote too much time to this at the moment.

[Schotsmannetje]

I don't think this will be addressed soon. As I understand it, bugs are given ratings and then sorted in terms of priority. Game-breaking bugs are sorted first, then major gameplay flaws, and so on. The fact that you have to cheat to exploit this means that it is not a major issue (it doesn't physically stop people playing the game) and therefore will be way down the SI 'to do' list. They have got other things to look at in terms of graphic card compatibility and so on, I don't think it is reasonable to expect SI to devote too much time to this at the moment.

That's the entire point. It's not a cheat at all.

[Ljuba82]

I have my own reasoning for why they shouldn't happen, but what exactly is your reason for saying that?

I have said it too many times, so I'll not repeat myself more...

I think it's possible to have a DC/ST regen, so it will be a massive flaw then.

Also I'm pretty sure that there are such players already in database.

Yes there are alot of such players, but I just saw the most notable are Jan Kohler...and ELANO!!!!!!!!

Yes Elano (FM 2008). Player with high versatilyty and with DC rating of 12!!!

Maybe that explains why he was so good by just looking his attribute profile at first glance at FM 2008!!!

[Ljuba82]

...and one more thing...I just discovered that player had to gain only rating of 11 for some position...and his weight for attibute will start to change (so not 14 like i thought before) !!!

[PaulC]

While I agree that each combination of position attributes ( GK, DC, MC etc ) will have a unique set of weightings, I don't really understand how this player with almost all 20's has been created and accepted by the game. Can I ask the original poster to show us a screenshot of this player in the database, after being edited, showing his attributes as well as his CA etc?

[LichR]

There are quite a few ST / DC in the game.

If you train these players in attacking only, or defending only, their corresponding attributes will shoot up and a 100 CA player will perform like 140 CA player. (OR, a 20 CA player perform like 60 CA player, this can be game destroyer in LLM)

If you have a ST / DC player (there are plenty of those in DB) who seems to be more suited to play ST although he is a natural DC (therefore, he will not lose his DC rating), you will naturally train him as ST.

Whilst you may argue that "its okay since most people will not know this" or "I won't use this to exploit",

Isn't FM supposed to model reality? In reality, those ST / DC don't get their stats boosted up just because they can play in ST and DC.

Corner cheat was found and was fixed, because it wasn't realistic.

Diablo tactic was found and was fixed, because it wasn't realistic.

Most people will never have found corner cheat or diablo tactic with their "normal" way to the game, but it doesn't mean that they can leave these in the game.

I don't see how this is different, and I think it should be fixed.

there's probably better ways to do CA/PA/Position/Attribute

[PaulC]

Well, if any of you can reproduce this in FM2009, we would be delighted to look at the save game with a view to improving it.

[Ljuba82]

Completely agree with you LichR!!!

While I agree that each combination of position attributes ( GK, DC, MC etc ) will have a unique set of weightings, I don't really understand how this player with almost all 20's has been created and accepted by the game. Can I ask the original poster to show us a screenshot of this player in the database, after being edited, showing his attributes as well as his CA etc?

1. Open editor, choose Ibrahimovic, give him CA, PA of 200.

2. Fill his stats EXACTLY like in 2nd screenshot (2 footed player)...and raise his weaker foot to 18.

3. And now...the key....and the reason why I believe system is seriously fawled...give him positional ratings in ST, DC, DL and DR of 20 (natural in those positions).

4. Just start the game and you'll see.

I haven't tried yet, but it would be interesting how this supermen will perform in ME.

I have to say that I get some ideas about this when I was playing FM 2008 few months ago...and when I saw a player...Ilsinho...who was, by watching attributes, better player then Messi, even he has CA of only 160. But I couldn' proove anuthing cause I didn;t have a code for player evaluation (CA/PA).

But, few days ago, I get a program from which I can see exactly the weight of every attribute in every position (thankfully for my friend here ).

...and I just started to play with it and I saw that if you add a DC position to pure striker, weight of his finishing, pace....and other attacking attributes will drop (finishing from 10 to 4.38 to be precise). And the idea just shined through my head that if I keep defensive attributes low because weight of those attributtes raised by player learning a new position(marking and tackling from 1 to 4.38...)...I will have aditional attributes to add to player to fill his CA (attacking attributes, which are now "cheaper")!!!

So I start experimenting...adding position by position and discovered that you can maximise gain for strikers from this method if you give him DR, DC and DL positions (but you will also get decent amount of CA points if he can play only as ST and DC). So at the and...I discovered that you can get up to 40 CA points for striker with this method.

I repeat once again...pay attention that your striker has to have low defensive attributes...cause if they are high they will consume CA points more...so at the end...your gain will not be so high...even you might have to decrease his att if his marking and tackling are extremely high (wil not happen, but in theory it can).

I hope you start to understand this...cause I'm a liitle out of words of how could I describe this fhenomenon.

[Ljuba82]

Well, if any of you can reproduce this in FM2009, we would be delighted to look at the save game with a view to improving it.

I can reproduce you right now if I just get DB...or you can do it by your own with method I explained above, cause I get a "tool" for FM 2009...and just aplyed conclusions for FM2008.

And I have to say that I think there are some minor changes, cause for what I can see right now...there are no FREE ATTRIBUTE anymore....that means that set pieces now take some CA points...

So if you do experiments...just leave set pieces to rating of 1. (I set them 20 in FM 2008 db cause they were free att).

[Ljuba82]

Just copied something from another thread...which is linked with this topic...

OK...I just had a test...and here are some interesting conclusions...

I copied all of Srna attributes from game to my new tool, but gave him only one position on which he can play...MR position...

Guess what...his CA is 189!!! Of course it's logical to asume that he doesn't have such high CA.

So I gave him other position (that he have in game)...DR, WBR, AMR....DL, WBL, ML, AML.

And guess what...his CA now is 176...

...so now we can discuss if he is overrated or not, but because of positions bug...he had CA of 176, but if you play him on MR (my suggestion) whe will behave like he had CA of 189.

Also I wouldn't suggest using him as DR cause his CA on that position would be 166 (not bad, of course he would be good, but he can be beeter up the field). So even if his defensive stats are decent...you can save big amount of CA on him. Imagine what you can do to this player if you gave him no defensive training!!!

Also...bear in mind that this player is more siutable for upfront positions, but in siome other case it might be opposite, so you can do improving in opposite way...no attacking training while improving his defensive stats and while training him ti opfront positions (because you decrease weight of his defensive attributes).

...and one more thing...I think that scouts in game don't use just CA...because if you look at my other topic...I made a player who had CA of 200 (supermen...but with allmost all 20's across the board). He get 7 stars rating while some similar player with similar CA (Fabregas, CR, Messi) get only 5 stars.

P.S.

Weakeer foot is most weighted for ST and AMC, AML and ML (if he is right footed player)....weight of 15.00...

...then for MC, DM, WBL, DL (right footed player) 10.00

....AMR, MR, DC, SW...6.00

...GK, DR, WBR...4.38

the opposite is if player is left footed...then weight for weakeer foot will be more important for right sidede positions...

[DavePAFC]

Attribute scouts are for cheaters. Completely undermines what the game is all about.

And that player is wuss, he can't keep an eye on or tackle the opposition for toffee.

[jayahr]

I'm struggling to see what the point of this thread is?

Honestly???? :confused:

I am actually amazed by what this tells us.

So if we want to improve our strikers or defenders by training, we should retrain them to the 'other' position (although we never intend to play them there) and still keep them on a schedule which suits their attacking/defensing attributes. The ability to play as a defender/striker too will allow a significantly better progress in their attacking/defending stats which are important to us.

This is an amazing workaround, actually: cheat, to get better results from training

However, I don't see how SI could make it better and close this workaround. The system itself seems to work pretty well and apparently it takes some motivation to experiment or to cheat.

[PaulC]

1. Open editor, choose Ibrahimovic, give him CA, PA of 200.

2. Fill his stats EXACTLY like in 2nd screenshot (2 footed player)...and raise his weaker foot to 18.

3. And now...the key....and the reason why I believe system is seriously fawled...give him positional ratings in ST, DC, DL and DR of 20 (natural in those positions).

4. Just start the game and you'll see.

I haven't tried yet, but it would be interesting how this supermen will perform in ME.

I have asked QA to try it and report back with results.

[CaptainPlanet]

I would get annoyed with the fact my striker would show up as DC/S on my team selection screen.

Strikers should be at the bottom damnit.

[outlander]

You don't need to cheat or do it on purpose to have that issue.

For example I very often train players for different positions: MC-DMC, MC-AMC, DR-MR, ST-AMC and all those vice versa. Especially if they already have low ratings for these positions. Having low ratings doesn't change the weightning system but after some training it changes.

So when I play the game the way I do it my players can suddenly become worse or better just cos of training for other positions. That's quite a massive flaw.

Also with Srna example it's obvious that it's importatnt not only for ST/DC but for DR/MR, DL/ML. And there are thousands of such players I think including regens. And it's very common that a manager just decides what position will be his primary one and will have a training shedule for it and so the player will get extra CA points.

It was said that much thought will be needed to fix it but the fix is really very much needed.

[Majkee]

Every usage of DB editor in order to change player CA, PA or any attributes related to performance is CHEAT imho.

[Mitja]

Ljuba

will this 'positional bug' also influence players' stats to increase/change:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=57976

[Majkee]

You don't need to cheat or do it on purpose to have that issue.

For example I very often train players for different positions: MC-DMC, MC-AMC, DR-MR, ST-AMC and all those vice versa. Especially if they already have low ratings for these positions. Having low ratings doesn't change the weightning system but after some training it changes.

So when I play the game the way I do it my players can suddenly become worse or better just cos of training for other positions. That's quite a massive flaw.

Also with Srna example it's obvious that it's importatnt not only for ST/DC but for DR/MR, DL/ML. And there are thousands of such players I think including regens. And it's very common that a manager just decides what position will be his primary one and will have a training shedule for it and so the player will get extra CA points.

It was said that much thought will be needed to fix it but the fix is really very much needed.

I can not understand what is the issue.

Can you get it clear for me, please?

[Mitja]

Every usage of DB editor in order to change player CA, PA or any attributes related to performance is CHEAT imho.

not when it is used for scientific research

[jayahr]

Every usage of DB editor in order to change player CA, PA or any attributes related to performance is CHEAT imho.

Don't misunderstand him! He just tried it for empirical reasons, using the editor to see whether there was a problem. He does not use this in his favour while playing the game (and even if he did, why on earth should I care?).

He just points to a possible flaw which could be exploited by cheaters.

[CaptainPlanet]

I'm sure this didn't require two pages of "omg editor hax" posts before realising it's a possible bug.

Tbh the original post could have been posted in a sensible non-panic tone on the bugs forum and asked to be investigated.

Glad to see it's been passed on to be looked at, it reminds me of the transfer bug from a couple of versions ago when you could accept your own transfer bid for another player.

[Majkee]

not when it is used for scientific research

But what is the result of this research in praxis for non-cheating style of play?

[jayahr]

I can not understand what is the issue.

Can you get it clear for me, please?

I feel my post #73 sums it up quite well

[Mitja]

But what is the result of this research in praxis for non-cheating style of play?

read this thread. imo it all started when weak foot ability influence in the game changed (FM08?).

why change smth which was functioning well?

[Majkee]

I feel my post #73 sums it up quite well

Thanks, I have an impression, that CA will never push PA further with various "new position" training.

So is this true?

1. Player X; PA 175

2. CA 100

3. ST natural position, nothing else

4. retrain him to DC

5. CA raised up to e.g.125 CA due to DC accomplished position?

6. add MC, ML, MR and it will raised up to e.g. 170 CA?

7. add another positions like DMC, WBL, WBR and it will push CA beyond PA and as a result PA adjusted to new CA, e.g. 200 for both CA and PA?

[jayahr]

Thanks, I have an impression, that CA will never push PA further with various "new position" training.

So is this true?

1. Player X; PA 175

2. CA 100

3. ST natural position, nothing else

4. retrain him to DC

5. CA raised up to e.g.125 CA due to DC accomplished position?

6. add MC, ML, MR and it will raised up to e.g. 170 CA?

7. add another positions like DMC, WBL, WBR and it will push CA beyond PA and as a result PA adjusted to new CA, e.g. 200 for both CA and PA?

No, not quite.

The positional retraining will not affect his CA, nor his PA. The whole issue is just connected to the normal increase of CA in the game.

What it does is to affect the spreading of attributes if his CA rises normally. Any attribute has a weight for each position, i.e. finishing is more important to strikers than marking. Thus an improvement in finishing takes more CA points than an improvement in marking for a striker, while a defender needs more CA points to have a high marking attribute. Every time the CA of a player rises, one or more of his attributes will improve. Which, depends on training and how much depends on his CA improvement (which is still unconnected to retraining, mind).

If he it just a SC, it will take him like 2 CA points (for instance the rise from 100 to 102) to increase his finishing attribute by one, but he could instead have his marking attribute improved by five for the same increase of CA. But if he is also a DC, an improvement in finishing will become 'cheaper' in terms of CA because the weight of the finishing attribute is lowered (because now he also is a defender, so the weight of defensive attributes is raised and the weight of attacking ones lowered).

If you now keep your striker on an attacking training schedule, his attacking attributes will rise more than they would have if you had not retrained him to DC as well, because the lowered weight of attacking attributes allows a bigger increase of the attacking attributes when the player's CA rises. In result you will have a better striker.

Hope this makes it clear now

[outlander]

Thanks, I have an impression, that CA will never push PA further with various "new position" training.

So is this true?

1. Player X; PA 175

2. CA 100

3. ST natural position, nothing else

4. retrain him to DC

5. CA raised up to e.g.125 CA due to DC accomplished position?

6. add MC, ML, MR and it will raised up to e.g. 170 CA?

7. add another positions like DMC, WBL, WBR and it will push CA beyond PA and as a result PA adjusted to new CA, e.g. 200 for both CA and PA?

It's the other way round. You have a striker with 150CA and 150PA(so he reached his maximum and won't improve his skills further) for example and retrain him to DC. After this his CA is 110. It should be by weightning system at least. I'm not sure if his CA will be lowered but with same skills and he will be able to improve or his CA will stay the same but some skills will just jump immidiatly. Anyway it's not right.

Same with other positions.

Basically the re-training for other positions can make the skills of a player better or worse and thta is quite odd.

[Majkee]

What it does is to affect the spreading of attributes if his CA rises normally. Any attribute has a weight for each position, i.e. finishing is more important to strikers than marking. Thus an improvement in finishing takes more CA points than an improvement in marking for a striker, while a defender needs more CA points to have a high marking attribute.

This is quite one-dimensional and illogical. Why? Is it true?

If he it just a SC, it will take him like 2 CA points (for instance the rise from 100 to 102) to increase his finishing attribute by one, but he could have his marking attribute improved by five for the same increase of CA. But if he is also a DC, an improvement in finishing will become 'cheaper' in terms of CA because the weight of the finishing attribute is lowered (because now he also is a defender, so the weight of defensive attributes is raised and the weight of attacking ones lowered).

If this is true, the game is completely wrong-coded imho. It has no logic at all.

If you now keep your striker on an attacking training schedule, his attacking attributes will rise more than they would have if you had not retrained him to DC as well, because the lowered weight of attacking attributes allows a bigger increase of the attacking attributes when the player's CA rises. In result you will have a better striker.

Hope this makes it clear now

Thanks, it is clear now. Quite strange

[bigdunk]

Why is it illogical? A striker with high tackling is not that much better than a striker with low tackling, whereas a defender with hig tackling is much better than a defender with low tackling.

[Lordarod]

They should get around it in FML seriously.

[jayahr]

This is quite one-dimensional and illogical. Why? Is it true?

If this is true, the game is completely wrong-coded imho. It has no logic at all.

Thanks, it is clear now. Quite strange

This way of balancing the attributes for each position helps to balance the game. If we had just an attribute average in place like I guess we had during CM2 and CM3 times (CA 140= avr attr of 14.0, 168=16.8 and so on) we would have players with good attributes all the way, just like the guy the OP created to test the issue. That would be very unrealistic.

Now, the avr attributes are lower because high specialist attributes restrict the possible improvement in other areas, while good allround attributes restrict the specialist ones. That's overall quite fine at the moment imho. That's also why I cannot come up with a witty solution how to solve the problem of the possible exploit without creating negative effects on the player balance. If you have one, everyone will be happy .

If I was to choose between having this issue in the game (that was there in FM08 as well and nobody complained) which can be exploited by a few and having the old, dodgy player attribute balance back, I'd opt for the former.

Of course, this issue can actually become a massive one for FML

[Ljuba82]

Ljuba

will this 'positional bug' also influence players' stats to increase/change:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=57976

I didn'tr test a lot, but from what I've seen, answer is...YES, but difference is not so significant because those positions have similar weight of atributes.

I checked Pirlo...cause he is perfect example of player who plays naturaly on DM, but is very technical player (not like Gatusso for example). So logic is that in general he would be better player if he plays more uopfront...

...and I was right...for example if Pirlo don't have DM position whe would be better player (he would have aditional 4 CA points), but if the game didn't gave him his MC position, he will be down by 3 CA points...(so in extreme situatuin, difference is 7 CA points).

...about wingers...you If player have positional rating of 20...he will automaticaly get some rating for ML when game starts...so you can save about 3 CA to increase hiss winger attributes. If you decide to train him to MC position...you can get aditional few point you can asign to his most important winger attribute. And it's logical because weight of his winger stats will drop, cause weight of his MC stats will increase...

I'm sure this didn't require two pages of "omg editor hax" posts before realising it's a possible bug.

Yes it does, cause some pepole still can't understand despite giving everything to explain...or just don't read or use their brains...

Thanks, I have an impression, that CA will never push PA further with various "new position" training.

So is this true?

1. Player X; PA 175

2. CA 100

3. ST natural position, nothing else

4. retrain him to DC

5. CA raised up to e.g.125 CA due to DC accomplished position?

6. add MC, ML, MR and it will raised up to e.g. 170 CA?

7. add another positions like DMC, WBL, WBR and it will push CA beyond PA and as a result PA adjusted to new CA, e.g. 200 for both CA and PA?

No...you can't get over you CA...it's just the way OUTLANDER and Jayahr described.

Also...if you have a player with ST, DC, DL, DR positions for example (maximum gain for striker from my experiments)...giving him more positions...like AMC, AML, MC...will increase WEIGHT of his attacking attributes and then you can't exploit this bug in so extreme way (40 CA points).

It's the other way round. You have a striker with 150CA and 150PA(so he reached his maximum and won't improve his skills further) for example and retrain him to DC. After this his CA is 110. It should be by weightning system at least. I'm not sure if his CA will be lowered but with same skills and he will be able to improve or his CA will stay the same but some skills will just jump immidiatly. Anyway it's not right.

Same with other positions.

Basically the re-training for other positions can make the skills of a player better or worse and thta is quite odd.

Exactly.

[Lordarod]

they might as well have all strikers PA 200

[Ljuba82]

If this is true, the game is completely wrong-coded imho. It has no logic at all.

That it's exactly what I try to tell to people...this is so BIG BUG, much bigger then some corner-cheat or something...but as you can see...it's not so easy for understanding...

[jayahr]

That it's exactly what I try to tell to people...this is so BIG BUG, much bigger then some corner-cheat or something...but as you can see...it's not so easy for understanding...

Which is good, as it means not too many people are likely to exploit it

Actually if this thread was deleted and nobody talked about it ever more, it would be just the few people who read through this in depth who know and it would be unlikely that others come up with this idea/discovery too soon again...

So maybe that would be the best thing in order to keep this issue as small and unexploited as possible

[CaptainPlanet]

In the grand scheme of people playing, I'd love to know how few people ever re-train someone in a new position.

[Ljuba82]

Which is good, as it means not too many people are likely to exploit it

Actually if this thread was deleted and nobody talked about it ever more, it would be just the few people who read through this in depth who know and it would be unlikely that others come up with this idea/discovery too soon again...

So maybe that would be the best thing in order to keep this issue as small and unexploited as possible

Yes, but people should know...let SI to deserve their money...

[jayahr]

Yes, but people should know...let SI to deserve their money...

Anyway, big kudos for posting such a thread of such importance and wit so early on in your membership on here

[outlander]

Which is good, as it means not too many people are likely to exploit it

Actually if this thread was deleted and nobody talked about it ever more, it would be just the few people who read through this in depth who know and it would be unlikely that others come up with this idea/discovery too soon again...

So maybe that would be the best thing in order to keep this issue as small and unexploited as possible

The problem is that it's not just an exploit like corner-bug for example. You could always not use tthose corner instructions.

Here I'll give you a prime example.

In another thread Ljuba82 posted very interesting information.

Weakeer foot is most weighted for ST and AMC, AML and ML (if he is right footed player)....weight of 15.00...

...then for MC, DM, WBL, DL (right footed player) 10.00

....AMR, MR, DC, SW...6.00

...GK, DR, WBR...4.38

the opposite is if player is left footed...then weight for weakeer foot will be more important for right sidede positions...

...

So for example you have an ARM who is 20 with right foot and 18 for left foot. He also is "awkward" at AML(it's less than 11 rating). It's pretty natural that many managers will re-train him for AML position cos he is left-footed and should be as good at left flank. But the weightning for weaker(left) foot for AML is the highest.

So by re-training such player you will end up with a worse/less talented player in skills.

[jayahr]

The problem is that it's not just an exploit like corner-bug for example. You could always not use tthose corner instructions.

Here I'll give you a prime example.

In another thread Ljuba82 posted very interesting information.

So for example you have an ARM who is 20 with right foot and 18 for left foot. He also is "awkward" at AML(it's less than 11 rating). It's pretty natural that many managers will re-train him for AML position cos he is left-footed and should be as good at left flank. But the weightning for weaker(left) foot for AML is the highest.

So by re-training such player you will end up with a worse/less talented player in skills.

You are right. This is however mainly connected with the weight that is attached to two-footedness and could be solved and addressed way easier than the whole issue behind the positional weight of attributes.

[outlander]

You are right. This is however mainly connected with the weight that is attached to two-footedness and could be solved and addressed way easier than the whole issue behind the positional weight of attributes.

Yes, I thought about it after I posted.

It looks like another very big data bug with two-footedness. I mean a two-footed(with right primary one) AMR will be much better than the same AML player. It's just crazy.