Just found something amazing!!! Must see!!!

[the blue ferret]

He' lying, look at the screenshots in page 1. He is using an editor. First one is Zlatan, the second one, he cuts the name off the top, but what gives it away was that he forgot to edit the international caps ans goals. Strange that both these players have played 44 time for Sweden and both scored 18 goals.

[Ljuba82]

Oh, I also have a question Ljuba82.

Did you try what editing for the GK position does to outfield players' attributes?

Logically speaking, I'd guess that adding GK versatility should have a huge impact on CA weights.

Yes you can!!!

If you saw a player screenshots from first page you saw that although they are beasts, they do have som attribute rating of 18, 19 (even more if he is 2 footed). It's because player would have to have CA of 275 to have all his attributes 20's. On that picture players are looking like they have CA of 240

With goalkeepers is different situation...you can get GK with all 20's (yes all, with weaker foot of 20) with only 170CA!!!

It's because you can set his techical attributes of 1 (which he will not use obviously) and because those attributes are now weighted more when he can play on outfield positions, his REAL CA will drop significantly, so you can easily fill other his stats with 20's.

Anyway I didn't bother with that, cause I haven't seen player who can play as GK and on some other, outfield position. If it is possible to have such player, then it's bigger bug.

P.S. Abot Silva, Elano, Ilsinho...

Just checked...Silva is, by far best non-regen player on FM 2008.

When game starts he is 3rd best player in game, altough he has only 178 CA.

He has potentital of 88% on his best positin, and it's 3% more than next, second player, which is very significant because other top players are very close to each other.

[Ljuba82]

He' lying, look at the screenshots in page 1. He is using an editor. First one is Zlatan, the second one, he cuts the name off the top, but what gives it away was that he forgot to edit the international caps ans goals. Strange that both these players have played 44 time for Sweden and both scored 18 goals.

Yes...it is Zlatan edited in editor that comes with game. Sreenshot is for game.

The reason why I cutted his picture is because I first wanted to see people questioning themselves how it's possible to have a player with allmost all 20's. The only reason why I cutted picture is because I didn't want them to see his positions under name (because he can play as DL, DR, DC).

But then I realised it's a big bug and that pepole should know about it.

[Mitja]

aren't sliva's stats increased only becouse his weak foot is 1?

[RT--]

First of all I have to say that current system of player abilities on pitch are very similar ,like you described...

...so...you have player attributes that are weighted differently for every position + player gets penalty for every point he is away from NATURAL position (so every rating below 20). It will be too harsh to say that he is only 75% of player if his positional rating for that position is 15, but for sure he havs some penalty.

The only difference is that CA is not calculated for every position, so you can, for example, exploit this by increasing attacking attributes of ST because weight of those attributes drops when you retrain him to DC.

If SI implement this what you have told, we wouldn't be able to further increase his attacking attributes cause CA for that ST position is reached.

But that introduce us to new problem. Every player in game has to have pack of CA and PA ratings. He has to have as much CA, PA ratings as there are positions on pitch (cause obviously even if you retrain player to some position where he would have very low positional rating and where he have very big penalty, for example 1, game has to calculate his CA and PA on that position, even it's very low).

So in basic...he has to have exactly 17 different CA/PA ratings (GK, SW, DL, DC, DR, WBL, DM, WBR, ML, MC, MR, AML, AMC, AMR, FL, FC, FR).

And it's not the problem about programmers calculations...it can be done, problem is that researchers would have to give every player 17 different CA/ PA ratings and bearing in ming number of players in DB, it's too complicated.

Actually, if I'm reading VMX's post right, you wouldn't need researchers to give every player 17 different PA/CA scores.

All they'd have to do is put in the players' attributes and his position scores and then the editor, using the attribute weights and position scores, would calculate all of the different CA/PA scores from there.

I'm not sure it's something I'd agree with, but I don't think it would have to involve much more work from the researchers.

[RT--]

Just checked...Silva is, by far best non-regen player on FM 2008.

When game starts he is 3rd best player in game, altough he has only 178 CA.

He has potentital of 88% on his best positin, and it's 3% more than next, second player, which is very significant because other top players are very close to each other.

Is this using Genie Scout?

Genie Scout doesn't take WFA in to account, does it? So to say he's the best non-regen isn't necessarily true. The match engine takes account of WFA as well as attributes, so Silva will lose out there, because his WFA is set quite low.

[Ljuba82]

aren't sliva's stats increased only becouse his weak foot is 1?

Yes, they are, but by looking his efectivness (in%)..he is best comparing with other players.

Actually, if I'm reading VMX's post right, you wouldn't need researchers to give every player 17 different PA/CA scores.

All they'd have to do is put in the players' attributes and his position scores and then the editor, using the attribute weights and position scores, would calculate all of the different CA/PA scores from there.

I'm not sure it's something I'd agree with, but I don't think it would have to involve much more work from the researchers.

Agree, but reserachers do have to pay attention on EVERY CA/PA on every position. So they can just fill attributes, but they also have to check every single position, they have to see if it's realistic for every position.

Complicated.

Is this using Genie Scout?

Genie Scout doesn't take WFA in to account, does it? So to say he's the best non-regen isn't necessarily true. The match engine takes account of WFA as well as attributes, so Silva will lose out there, because his WFA is set quite low.

You are right...but weight for his weaker foot on left side of the pitch (where he plays is only 6.00 pts, so it's much less than ST 15.00 for example).

[Majkee]

First of all I have to say that current system of player abilities on pitch are very similar ,like you described...

...so...you have player attributes that are weighted differently for every position + player gets penalty for every point he is away from NATURAL position (so every rating below 20). It will be too harsh to say that he is only 75% of player if his positional rating for that position is 15, but for sure he havs some penalty.

The only difference is that CA is not calculated for every position, so you can, for example, exploit this by increasing attacking attributes of ST because weight of those attributes drops when you retrain him to DC.

If SI implement this what you have told, we wouldn't be able to further increase his attacking attributes cause CA for that ST position is reached.

But that introduce us to new problem. Every player in game has to have pack of CA and PA ratings. He has to have as much CA, PA ratings as there are positions on pitch (cause obviously even if you retrain player to some position where he would have very low positional rating and where he have very big penalty, for example 1, game has to calculate his CA and PA on that position, even it's very low).

So in basic...he has to have exactly 17 different CA/PA ratings (GK, SW, DL, DC, DR, WBL, DM, WBR, ML, MC, MR, AML, AMC, AMR, FL, FC, FR).

And it's not the problem about programmers calculations...it can be done, problem is that researchers would have to give every player 17 different CA/ PA ratings and bearing in ming number of players in DB, it's too complicated.

Hi Ljuba,

one question again - why whould researchers need to give to each player 17 different CA/PA? This is done automatically by positional rating for each position and performance on that position.

They assign one PA for best "natural" position. They set maximal starting CA, again for natural position. They assign attributes to match the set CA for best natural position and after that, they assign other (not natural) positions and levels of performance based on real player performances on various positions. We know, that for each position and performance level on that positon (I mean accomplished, competent, ankward etc.) there is a some set constant. So researchers do not need to think about 17 different CA, they only need to adjust right ratio (level of performance) for every position.

Example (not taken from game):

1. Gabby Agbonlahor

2. Assign natural position - Striker

3. Assign PA for natural position - 175

4. Assign max. starting CA for natural position - 135

5. Assign player attributes with attr weighting in mind and not to exceed max. CA

6. Assign another positions (AMR, AMC, MR)

7. Assign performance levels on that unnatural positions (AMR - accomplished, AMC - ankward, MR - competent).

After that, CA is calculated automatically for every position via constants, attributes and weight of attributes related to every position.

This is used when you set player in tactics or if you can see coach report for various positions etc.

Simple as that IMHO.

[bigdunk]

Actually, if I'm reading VMX's post right, you wouldn't need researchers to give every player 17 different PA/CA scores.

All they'd have to do is put in the players' attributes and his position scores and then the editor, using the attribute weights and position scores, would calculate all of the different CA/PA scores from there.

I'm not sure it's something I'd agree with, but I don't think it would have to involve much more work from the researchers.

But it would make it a lot more difficult to keep the database balanced. With having an absolute CA for each player, it makes it reasonably easy to ensure that players are of suitable ability for the league they play in. If the game is guessing multiple CAs for each player, based on attributes, then it would be a lot more tricky.

[Ljuba82]

Ok Majkee....in general I like the whole concept...

...I agree in previous post....they don't have to enter each CA/PA...but they do have to check them with every single attribute increase they made. Because 5 increase in CROSSING attribute will surely increase his winger CA more than his DC CA. So they have to constantly check it and balancing all the time, or you can be in situation that best world striker can have bigger CA for MC position just because he have passing, agility and creativity of 20 for example.

...anyway it's not so important now, their programmers should find something, I'm eager to hear their comments about this issue. Because of this, game is practically unplayable!!!

[RT--]

But it would make it a lot more difficult to keep the database balanced. With having an absolute CA for each player, it makes it reasonably easy to ensure that players are of suitable ability for the league they play in. If the game is guessing multiple CAs for each player, based on attributes, then it would be a lot more tricky.

I pretty much agree, and this is one of the reasons that I don't think that system would work.

[United__FM]

...anyway it's not so important now, their programmers should find something, I'm eager to hear their comments about this issue. Because of this, game is practically unplayable!!!

LOL. Now that's going way overboard.

FM08 is eminently playable in current form. What the position-based attribute inflation does is alter the relative performance of players, that's all. Silva, Ilsinho, Elano, Vidal, and others who get this boost may be overcharged, but that doesn't make the game itself unplayable now does it?

[Majkee]

Ok Majkee....in general I like the whole concept...

...I agree in previous post....they don't have to enter each CA/PA...but they do have to check them with every single attribute increase they made. Because 5 increase in CROSSING attribute will surely increase his winger CA more than his DC CA. So they have to constantly check it and balancing all the time, or you can be in situation that best world striker can have bigger CA for MC position just because he have passing, agility and creativity of 20 for example.

...anyway it's not so important now, their programmers should find something, I'm eager to hear their comments about this issue. Because of this, game is practically unplayable!!!

Ok, I was writing my reply when you replied

I agree, they must check whether they assign correct performance level on unnatural positions.

That brings me another thought - when people ask what is the difference between CROS 15 and 16, they can not see the difference. But there could by big difference - especially with another positions taken in mind, this one point difference influences CA for each popsition differently. Nice.

I am thinking about how to avoid exploit which you have found yesterday with retraining. The simple solution is to deny possibility to retrain antipole positions like DC to ST and vice-versa. If player can refuse to train PPM, he can refuse retraining to antipole position too.

And also for researchers, minimize the number of unnatural postions, to think twice before assigning unnatural position (especially antipole ones)

[bigdunk]

No not unweighted. Concentration surely means more than Corner taking, however attributes shouldn't be weighted according to positions because that isn't realistic.

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong on this. A good striker is a good striker because of his finishing/heading/pace/composure etc, not because of his tackling/marking/positioning etc. It's perfectly logical that those key attributes should be favoured more highly when calculating how good a player is.

[martplfc1]

Ok Majkee....in general I like the whole concept...

...I agree in previous post....they don't have to enter each CA/PA...but they do have to check them with every single attribute increase they made. Because 5 increase in CROSSING attribute will surely increase his winger CA more than his DC CA. So they have to constantly check it and balancing all the time, or you can be in situation that best world striker can have bigger CA for MC position just because he have passing, agility and creativity of 20 for example.

...anyway it's not so important now, their programmers should find something, I'm eager to hear their comments about this issue. Because of this, game is practically unplayable!!!

Why don't you just choose to not retrain their position? Congratulations you've found a flaw in the game - same as the corner cheat. It's as simple as this - you either don't train David Silva or whoever to be a right back or you do which incrases his stats. You either don't use the editor to give a player 20 for every attribute, or you do. Either way, you choose whether to play the game as it was meant or you don't. Stop trying to uncover a massive conspiracy, it's just a game

[Majkee]

Why don't you just choose to not retrain their position? Congratulations you've found a flaw in the game - same as the corner cheat. It's as simple as this - you either don't train David Silva or whoever to be a right back or you do which incrases his stats. You either don't use the editor to give a player 20 for every attribute, or you do. Either way, you choose whether to play the game as it was meant or you don't. Stop trying to uncover a massive conspiracy, it's just a game

Sorry, but I must react. The same system is supposedly used in FM Live and I can see that a lot of people will exploit it. I do not play FM Live, but to cheat is natural characteristic of human beeings. If someone is cheating in FM it is up to him because he plays alone. For FM Live it could be a massive problem.

[Suttface]

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong on this. A good striker is a good striker because of his finishing/heading/pace/composure etc, not because of his tackling/marking/positioning etc. It's perfectly logical that those key attributes should be favoured more highly when calculating how good a player is.

I agree. Without taking the 'positionality' of attributes into account, you'd end up back in the CM days when all world class players, with highest CA, had 20s in nearly all areas. Key attributes for certain positions are critical and were one of the most important changes SI ever implemented. Not sure how to solve the conundrum raised in this thread tho! I think I like the idea of applying multipliers to positions... I'm still thinking it through though.

[martplfc1]

Sorry, but I must react. The same system is supposedly used in FM Live and I can see that a lot of people will exploit it. I do not play FM Live, but to cheat is natural characteristic of human beeings. If someone is cheating in FM it is up to him because he plays alone. For FM Live it could be a massive problem.

I wasn't talking about FM Live. Surely if you saw a player in FM live who played in an odd position and had 19/20 for almost every attribute, you could probably be justified in having a sneaking suspicion that the guy who owns the player is cheating.

[Ljuba82]

LOL. Now that's going way overboard.

FM08 is eminently playable in current form. What the position-based attribute inflation does is alter the relative performance of players, that's all. Silva, Ilsinho, Elano, Vidal, and others who get this boost may be overcharged, but that doesn't make the game itself unplayable now does it?

Maybe for you, for me...it is unplayable now when I know that.

Allmost everyday I play a game or two...today i didn't...!!!

Why don't you just choose to not retrain their position? Congratulations you've found a flaw in the game - same as the corner cheat. It's as simple as this - you either don't train David Silva or whoever to be a right back or you do which incrases his stats. You either don't use the editor to give a player 20 for every attribute, or you do. Either way, you choose whether to play the game as it was meant or you don't. Stop trying to uncover a massive conspiracy, it's just a game

Everything what you can do in game is not cheating!!!

In that logic...why they just don't give us some tactic with which we can win all of games 10:0.

They can just say "here you are, but you can use it or not use it".

Do you get my point?

Everything about realism (and game is built all around that) falls in river...

...and this is not just some corner-cheat problem, it's much, much bigger!!!!!!

...even more if you know that in some situations you don;t have to train player, cause he already have several positions on which he can play.

[Majkee]

Maybe for you, for me...it is unplayable now when I know that.

Allmost everyday I play a game or two...today i didn't...!!!

Everything what you can do in game is not cheating!!!

In that logic...why they just don't give us some tactic with which we can win all of games 10:0.

They can just say "here you are, but you can use it or not use it".

Do you get my point?

Everything about realism (and game is built all around that) falls in river...

...and this is not just some corner-cheat problem, it's much, much bigger!!!!!!

...even more if you know that in some situations you don;t have to train player, cause he already have several positions on which he can play.

I understand you well. For me it is similar as for you. But I will try to play my way in order to avoid misusing this situation which you have just discovered.

[United__FM]

Maybe for you, for me...it is unplayable now when I know that.

Allmost everyday I play a game or two...today i didn't...!!!

Haha. This isn't going to be "fixed" today or tomorrow. And the reason you're having trouble playing is because you've fiddled with it so much. Like what someone said early on in the thread, ignorance can be bliss! As many many people have noted within the thread, this position-driven attribute inflation doesn't hamstring core gameplay per se. It does however affect the relative attribute strength of players as we've noted. So if you want to play FM, you can either just work around it quite readily: Don't train strikers to be defenders, for one. It's all in the mind.

[martplfc1]

Maybe for you, for me...it is unplayable now when I know that.

Allmost everyday I play a game or two...today i didn't...!!!

Everything what you can do in game is not cheating!!!

In that logic...why they just don't give us some tactic with which we can win all of games 10:0.

They can just say "here you are, but you can use it or not use it".

Do you get my point?

Everything about realism (and game is built all around that) falls in river...

...and this is not just some corner-cheat problem, it's much, much bigger!!!!!!

...even more if you know that in some situations you don;t have to train player, cause he already have several positions on which he can play.

It is clearly cheating - you have found a flaw in the system which will allow you to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have if you chose not to retrain the player.

I acknowledge your point, but it still comes down to a choice. Your tactic example is the same - if they did provide it then you could choose not to use it. Same with the editor - they have provided us with a means of almost certain success if we used it in the right way. Every other game in the world has cheats; they even publish guides for you to complete a game if you can't be arsed working it out for yourself. The player thing you've found is an unintended cheat, but a cheat nontheless. It is a cheat because as I have said, if you use it, you will gain an advantage over the AI. If you want that go ahead, if you want to play the game as it is intended, then don't.

[VMX]

...

But that introduce us to new problem. Every player in game has to have pack of CA and PA ratings. He has to have as much CA, PA ratings as there are positions on pitch (cause obviously even if you retrain player to some position where he would have very low positional rating and where he have very big penalty, for example 1, game has to calculate his CA and PA on that position, even it's very low).

So in basic...he has to have exactly 17 different CA/PA ratings (GK, SW, DL, DC, DR, WBL, DM, WBR, ML, MC, MR, AML, AMC, AMR, FL, FC, FR).

And it's not the problem about programmers calculations...it can be done, problem is that researchers would have to give every player 17 different CA/ PA ratings and bearing in ming number of players in DB, it's too complicated.

As others have said, I don't think they would need to store ANY additional individual values.

Players would only have one unique PA. As far as I know, the game right now has already all the potential attributes points assigned, because you can go to FM Genie Scout and check how the player will be if/when he reaches his full potential.

So the attributes would be increased as they do right now (if trained properly, that is).

Only thing is, the CA value would be "modified" (multiplied) depending on his positional training.. So if the player has his best position trained from the beggining, then his CA is already at 100% from the beggining, and the player can develop his full potential without the need to be retrained to a new position.

However, if the player's "best" position is NOT one of his "learned" position(s), then his CA will always be below his PA. Obviously, an algorithm would calculate which percentage of the CA is "not used" depending on how different his current positions are from his best potential position. As I said, this wouldn't require any additional storage, because players already have his potential attributes assigned and stored in the DB. You only have to take a players potential attributes (fully developed, just like FM Genie shows them), and determine the best position he'll be able to play at. Then the "penalisation percentages" for each of the other positions can be easily calculated by the game itself, and applied to his current profile to establish his current CA.

This means that, if the player's potential attributes suit him best to play as an striker but his only current position is AMC, then a small amount of CA points would remain unused. For example, imagine that his PA is 167 and that the calculated percentage for the AMC position is 96%, (while it would be 100% for ST). Then he would be able to reach 160 out of his 167 PA points if he keeps playing as AMC. However, when he starts being retrained to his ST position, his CA points would start to be gradually spent as his positional training progresses (without modifying his attributes), until he reaches 167 CA.

On the other hand, a player who is best suited to play as ST but can only play as a DC (which he's really bad at, due to his low defensive attributes), would develop very very little of his true potential (depends on his attributes, but it should be a massive thing... like 40%). This is perfectly logical, because a guy who plays as DC but has a tackling of 3, marking of 2, positioning of 4, etc. would only benefit from things like heading or jumping maybe, but would be a really bad DC. This would result in him using 68 of his 170 PA points at max (please note I'm just inventing the values here, they could differ a lot).

This means poor performances in the field, low selling value for him, etc. However, if a new manager from another team spots him and realizes that this guy is not playing where he should, and signs him (presumabily for a cheap price) and retrains him to play as a ST so that he can use his excellent finishing, shooting and dribbling skills, etc. he would see how the player performs excellently as ST and would make a great signing, due to managerial abilities.

This was an extreme case, but similar things to these happen a lot nowadays in football.

You could have the typical situation in which a DM performs much better as an DC or MC... or where a striker with high dribbling and crossing but not much finishing is actually better as an AMR or AML... etc. And I would personally love the fact that it's the manager himself who needs to judge the player attributes to find the best position for him and get the most out of him.

This would all just be maths introduced into the game to calculate the different stuff. No new data needed at all. And you know you just need to tweak and balance the math stuff to make sure it doesn't produce any weird results, but other than that... I don't see a problem to introduce it into the game?

[ham_aka_stam]

sorry, ignore this post, i hadn't read the other two pages when i replied

[Burv]

what is the name of the programme used to do this btw?

[bigdunk]

Sorry, VMX, I don't really like that idea at all. Just because a player appears to be more suited to another position because of his attributes, it doesn't mean he actually is. Some of the attributes already factor in his potition too, so for example positioning - a DM with high positioning means he knows where to stand when playing DM, not necesarily if he plays DC for example, but your system would say he has high positioning, he must be a good DC (massive simplification there, obviously).

I don't think it's realistic either. How many players do you see change positions in real life, especially past the age of maybe 20? I'm guessing it's not actually that many. That means a load of restrictions are put on the players in the database, for example you couldn't give a DMC too high positioning, marking and tackling, because the game would assume he's better off as a DC and he wouldn't be able to reach the potential that the researcher assigned him.

[Hamenaglar]

@ VMX players don't have potential attributes stored in database. I don't know where you got that idea.

[RT--]

@ VMX players don't have potential attributes stored in database. I don't know where you got that idea.

As he says, Genie Scout shows both current attributes for a player and 'potential attributes' (i.e., the attributes he'll have if/when he reaches his PA).

So either Genie Scout has worked out how those extra CA points are shared out amongst the attributes, or it's just making those figures up.

[Hamenaglar]

As he says, Genie Scout shows both current attributes for a player and 'potential attributes' (i.e., the attributes he'll have if/when he reaches his PA).

So either Genie Scout has worked out how those extra CA points are shared out amongst the attributes, or it's just making those figures up.

yes, but those 'potential' attributes are calculated from PA and CA (and maybe training schedule). I've seen those potential attributes change as my players attributes changed. I assure you and everyone else that there are no potential attributes set in the editor.

[Majkee]

As he says, Genie Scout shows both current attributes for a player and 'potential attributes' (i.e., the attributes he'll have if/when he reaches his PA).

So either Genie Scout has worked out how those extra CA points are shared out amongst the attributes, or it's just making those figures up.

Do authors of Genie Scout know the code of FM?

I do not know Genie Scout and the way how it is coded. But...

Does FM database Editor contain "online" calculation of CA based on attributes? Or is it calculated only in running FM and not in editor or directly in db?

If yes, the code could be stolen from it how to count CA exactly and Genie Scout colud be accurate.

If no, the author of Genie Scout must know the code of FM.

Any ideas?

[ham_aka_stam]

VMX has it, in fact, that is the way I assumed it worked all along, and is the most logical and realistic method: you keep retraining a player to find a position where his attributes are most suited, and thus making him a better footballer than he was, like these GKs who were once strikers etc

[RT--]

yes, but those 'potential' attributes are calculated from PA and CA (and maybe training schedule). I've seen those potential attributes change as my players attributes changed. I assure you and everyone else that there are no potential attributes set in the editor.

Ah, fair enough about Genie Scout. I realise there are no 'potential attributes', just CA and PA which dictate how the attributes will develop.

[Hamenaglar]

Do authors of Genie Scout know the code of FM?

I do not know Genie Scout and the way how it is coded. But...

Does FM database Editor contain "online" calculation of CA based on attributes? Or is it calculated only in running FM and not in editor or directly in db?

If yes, the code could be stolen from it how to count CA exactly and Genie Scout colud be accurate.

If no, the author of Genie Scout must know the code of FM.

Any ideas?

I think it's just programmed to guess. Player has 156 CA and 175 PA, Genie scout determines that it is overall increase of 1.6 points (for example) so all atributes increas for two points. It might use even training schedules in calculation so some attributes would get a boost and some less.

However the progress of your players depends a lot on your training, because training schedules can be changed in blink of an eye, it's almost impossible to create a tool that would predict player's attributes in future.

[Majkee]

I think it's just programmed to guess. Player has 156 CA and 175 PA, Genie scout determines that it is overall increase of 1.6 points (for example) so all atributes increas for two points. It might use even training schedules in calculation so some attributes would get a boost and some less.

However the progress of your players depends a lot on your training, because training schedules can be changed in blink of an eye, it's almost impossible to create a tool that would predict player's attributes in future.

Yes, if you know the code of FM. IIRC there was a leak of code last year. Am I right?

[RT--]

I think it's just programmed to guess. Player has 156 CA and 175 PA, Genie scout determines that it is overall increase of 1.6 points (for example) so all atributes increas for two points. It might use even training schedules in calculation so some attributes would get a boost and some less.

However the progress of your players depends a lot on your training, because training schedules can be changed in blink of an eye, it's almost impossible to create a tool that would predict player's attributes in future.

I doubt it uses training schedules, because it just works on saved-game data, which I guess wouldn't store that? From what I remember, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as just increasing stats by 1.6 (for example) across the board - I think it uses *some* sort of algorithm which takes weighting for that position in to account.

[VMX]

@ VMX players don't have potential attributes stored in database. I don't know where you got that idea.

I don't know if they're stored, but they can at least be obtained at any point, that's for sure. If you want to see them, download FM Genie Scout, load up any of your games, and double click any player. Then tick the "show potential attributes" mark in his profile and see how it shows you how he will exactly be when/if he reaches his full potential. Every single attribute (including hidden ones) is either stored or easily calculated, I don't know which.

Sorry, VMX, I don't really like that idea at all. Just because a player appears to be more suited to another position because of his attributes, it doesn't mean he actually is. Some of the attributes already factor in his potition too, so for example positioning - a DM with high positioning means he knows where to stand when playing DM, not necesarily if he plays DC for example, but your system would say he has high positioning, he must be a good DC (massive simplification there, obviously).

I don't think it's realistic either. How many players do you see change positions in real life, especially past the age of maybe 20? I'm guessing it's not actually that many. That means a load of restrictions are put on the players in the database, for example you couldn't give a DMC too high positioning, marking and tackling, because the game would assume he's better off as a DC and he wouldn't be able to reach the potential that the researcher assigned him.

Erm... did you know Ruud Van Nistelrooy started playing as a DC? Did you know Casillas was a field player in youth categories? Do you remember how Júlio Baptista was considered (and played) as a defensive midfielder when he arrived at Sevilla? Then Joaquín Caparrós observed him and gradually pushed his position forward during a couple of seasons until he converted him in one of the best AMC/Strikers that you could see, which was sold to Real Madrid for near 30M of € (I can't remember the price exactly). Otherwise, he would've been, at best, an 'average' DM as his attributes don't suit himto defend at all (except for his strength, jumping, etc.). I'm not saying there are lots of cases like these. I'm saying there ARE some. And I'm also saying that there are LOTS of them in which it's not very clear which position a player is best suited at. Sometimes there are players who perform as strikers, but then are found to be much better at AMR for example. Others are found to be better when they switch to the opposite flank and play as AML.

In real life:

Big positional changes - very rare, though they do happen sometimes.

Small positioanl changes - very frequent, although they don't have such a big impact on the players performance.

And that's exactly what this system would accomplish.

About what you say with "giving" the player high marking or whatever... as I said, it's already stored in the database what attributes can be improved and by how many points they can improve. At least that's what FM Genie shows. So if you have a 190 PA striker and keep training him with defensive training, but his max. potential marking attribute for example is 4, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) his marking attribute won't improve any further than 4, regardless of how hard you try. However, if his max. potential finishing is 19 and you train him with attacking training, finishing will keep improving until it reaches that value. At least this is how I think the system works, correct me if I'm wrong there.

So the game already "knows" which attributes can improve and which ones can't, thus it wouldn't be possible for you to change a player's best position over the course of the game. You either spot which one his best position is, or you don't spot it. Just like in real life.

Erm... "Just because a player appears to be more suited to another position because of his attributes, it doesn't mean he actually is."

Man, as far as I can think of, it actually MEANS that he is. However, I'm not saying that it's all that matters.

Example:

Player whose defensive attributes are all at a value of 1 (completely crap at it). And he CAN'T play as DC at all (positional ability for DC = 1). Then his CA as a DC would be 1 obviously, he can't play there at all. No attributes, and no positional knowledge at all.

Now, you have a player which has the same crap defensive attributes (marking, tackling, etc... all at 1). BUT his positional ability as a DC is 20 ("natural"). Then the player would still have some ability there, because positional ability is taken into account, and the rest of his non-defensive attributes can influence too, even if they weight less. Obviously, this is absurd - if a DC has 1 in all his defensive attributes, he's obviously not suited to play there. And if his other attributes are also at 1... well... he's not even a football player! No matter what position he "likes" to play. LOL. But positional ability IS important... it just needs to be complemented with good attributes if you want a good player at that position.

Now, you have a player who has defensive attributes (marking, tackling...) of 20. However, he's never been trained at the DC position. His CA as a DC will still be decent (attributes of 20 do weight, even if his potential is multiplied by a little number). But it should be down to yourself to find that he would be great at that position and retraing him there.

There are attributes (like positioning) that benefit a player in many situations, just more in some positions than others. If a player has high tackling it just means he's good at tackling, regardless of the position he plays in. But obviously it will be more important if he plays a defensive role. However, a striker with good tackling will be able to steal more balls when he presses the opposition defense, that's a fact. But if his striker attributes are way better than his DC attributes, and he has been trained to play as a ST, then his CA will be that of the ST position. However, if this striker has also very good defensive attributes, it might be the case that he can also play really good at the DC position (maybe he can use 80% or 90% of his potential there). It would be weird, but it could happen. And if you realised this as a manager, you could as well train him to play there. However, unlike the current system, the fact that you decide to train him to play as a DC, wouldn't affect his skills as a striker, and thus everything would remain being coherent.

[Majkee]

I doubt it uses training schedules, because it just works on saved-game data, which I guess wouldn't store that? From what I remember, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as just increasing stats by 1.6 (for example) across the board - I think it uses *some* sort of algorithm which takes weighting for that position in to account.

If it is used on stored data, it should involve training schedules, as they are surely stored in saved games.

[VMX]

If it is used on stored data, it should involve training schedules, as they are surely stored in saved games.

I don't think it uses any training schedules, as you can even see that a 16 y/o player, who plays in a brazilian youth team, will improve into a terrific world-class player. However, I very much doubt that the training schedules for the youth team of Fluminense are stored and dinamically changed during the course of the game if all you have loaded is the Spanish Primera league...

However, if what you're saying is true and the potential values are NOT stored/calculated precisely (i.e.: Genie Scout just makes a "guess" of some sort) then it's not possible to use the system exactly as I've described it.

Still, I think this should be the way to go, just some tweaking needed. Because this would give even more importance to scouting (telling you which position a player is best at, regardles of his current "learned" positions) and making it more important for yourself to judge the best place to play your players... which is something I've always thought to be a super-important skill of a real manager. However, FM already does this for you, which is a shame

I recently found myself in a situation where I signed a player whose best position was DC, but his attributes (excellent passing and creativity, positioning, etc. BUT low marking, etc.) were clearly showing that his best position would be a DM/MC. However, even if you try to retrain him, you'll just waste your time, as he can, in the end, become a world-class DC even though his attributes are not the best for that position, but just because his PA is 185. It shouldn't be like that.

If a player attributes suit him better to play as DM or MC, he should only be able to develop his FULL potential in that position. He could be quite good as well in other positions, even be a good Premiership/Primera/Serie A player, but it should be impossible to become a world class DC (valued at 35M) with 12 marking, even if you have a PA of 185. You shouldn't be able to exploit that PA at the wrong position.

[bigdunk]

VMX (I won't bother quoting as it's a long post), I don't dispute that player do sometimes change position, but the percentage that do is tiny compared to the amount that don't. It's not stored in the database how much a player can improve each attribute, you've got that completely wrong. All that's stored is PA, CA, attributes and positions. The amount you can improve each attribute on is affected by training, and new positions learnt, the players overall development and so on. If you retrain a striker as a defender, you can turn him into a good defender, given enough time. And if you are concentrating on his defending, then it seems perfectly natural to me that his striking skills may suffer somewhat.

Your example of a defender with all 1s is a flawed example. Players won't be entered like that by researchers and the game won't generate them like that. Even if you enter one yourself, the game would modify his attributes to fit his CA.

As far as I can see, your system offers nothing new, other than arbitrarily capping a players PA based on his attributes. There's no need to do this, the researchers will be far better placed to make a judgement on his potential ability.

[Hamenaglar]

I doubt it uses training schedules, because it just works on saved-game data, which I guess wouldn't store that? From what I remember, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as just increasing stats by 1.6 (for example) across the board - I think it uses *some* sort of algorithm which takes weighting for that position in to account.

Probably, but I'm trying to keep it simple in explanations.

Those potential attributes are fairly incorrect, I've used them only to see how much player can improve, but not as something set in stone.

[VMX]

As far as I can see, your system offers nothing new, other than arbitrarily capping a players PA based on his attributes. There's no need to do this, the researchers will be far better placed to make a judgement on his potential ability.

If, for you, this system doesn't offer anything new, then I guess you don't give much importance to actual managerial skills... For me, it's a mistake that a green circle tells me which position my player will best perform at regardless of what his attributes are. I've always thought there's an "incompatibility" there, just like there was with arrows + defensive/offensive mentality, or forward runs. And that's why arrows were removed, amongst other reasons.

Pick 2 identical "twin" players. They have the exact same attributes. Both visible and hidden. They have the exact same potential, and they have already reached his PA because they have received the exact same training (offensive training for both).

However, one has the green "natural" circle at the striker position and he can play no other positions, and the other one has it at the AMC position and can't play any other positions.

How the heck can this be possible? If a determined fixed set of attributes make you a great striker with, say, 180 ability, they CAN'T make you an AMC just as good with an ability of 180 as well!! They could make you a little better or a little worse, but it's impossible that you're suited to play the same way there! And this should be down to the manager himself to find out.

You say it rarely happens in real life, but I disagree. It doesn't happen frequently with too exaggerated cases, but it DOES happen CONSTANTLY when a new manager arrives at a new club, and makes little changes to the positions a player is used. Raúl has played anywhere from ST to AMC, AML, AMR, MR and ML throughout his carreer, with very different results, depending on the manager who's been on charge. Zambrotta, Sergio Ramos (previously ONLY a DC, now ONLY a DR)...

If those real life examples mean nothing to you, then you can hardly appreciate the managers' ability to actually shape his players and get the most out of them. A football tactic is not a chess game...

[jayahr]

Honestly, my preferred solution to the issue which would not be inclined to do harm to the game is that players should refuse and/or be unable to be retrained to a position that differs from their natureal one by more than two arrays, i.e. strikers could not be retrained to D/WB/DM positions and defenders could not be retrained to AM/S positions.

This way you could fully maintain the positive aspects of attribute weighing and get rid of the most severe impacts of the exploit Ljuba discovered. Players who are natural DL/AMLs would remain unaffected.

[Hamenaglar]

Honestly, my preferred solution to the issue which would not be inclined to do harm to the game is that players should refuse and/or be unable to be retrained to a position that differs from their natureal one by more than two arrays, i.e. strikers could not be retrained to D/WB/DM positions and defenders could not be retrained to AM/S positions.

This way you could fully maintain the positive aspects of attribute weighing and get rid of the most severe impacts of the exploit Ljuba discovered. Players who are natural DL/AMLs would remain unaffected.

Still wouldn't change the fact, that a defender can improve his offensive attributes more easily than a striker. It can still be exploited.

[jayahr]

Still wouldn't change the fact, that a defender can improve his offensive attributes more easily than a striker. It can still be exploited.

But there would be no point in making him train his offensive skills as long as he cannot be retrained to play there. Actually, there is no point right now either in doing that. To me that is not an exploit but an unwise choice of training schedule. Why would you want him to train those?

I find my suggestion easy and clear, fixing the most severe part of the issue while not touching at all the benefits of attribute weighing. As you disagree with the concept of attribute weighing as such iirc of course you may disagree with me here as well

[bigdunk]

I agree it's impossible, but it can't happen like that! Attributes are weighted with regards to position, so if you created two players with the same attributes and CA, but different positions, the game would alter the player attributes so that they do fit the CA for their positions.

Players aren't just defined by their attributes, their positions are an important part of the player they are. A DC may have spent years playing DC, he knows that position well. His attributes may reflect this (high positioning, decisions, anticipation etc), but move him into midfield, then these attributes don't necesarily apply. Just because he knows how to position himself as a defender, doesn't mean he can position himself as a midfielder.

[bigdunk]

Still wouldn't change the fact, that a defender can improve his offensive attributes more easily than a striker. It can still be exploited.

But it's an exploit which is of absolutely no use to anyone. If you are training his offensive skills, it will be at the expense of his defensive skills, so you what have you actually gained from doing this? He's a better attacking defender, but it's at the expense of a defender who can defend better.

[Leclercq]

Honestly, my preferred solution to the issue which would not be inclined to do harm to the game is that players should refuse and/or be unable to be retrained to a position that differs from their natureal one by more than two arrays, i.e. strikers could not be retrained to D/WB/DM positions and defenders could not be retrained to AM/S positions.

This way you could fully maintain the positive aspects of attribute weighing and get rid of the most severe impacts of the exploit Ljuba discovered. Players who are natural DL/AMLs would remain unaffected.

I believe this would be the worst way to go and also the laziest. It would be restriciting what we can do as managers, in terms of being creative and tactically smart with our players. Say for example I get a LB like Marcelo. It's quite clear he would be a monster as a winger but I want my wingers to cut inside, being unable to train him as a AMR, or even for me to use his pace as a striker because he could be the only fast player on my team, simply to stop this bug, would do more harm than good in terms of restricting creativity in managers doing something different and this is not realistic.

Thought I had a solution but it's flawed as well. Great find Ljuba.

[Hamenaglar]

But it's an exploit which is of absolutely no use to anyone. If you are training his offensive skills, it will be at the expense of his defensive skills, so you what have you actually gained from doing this? He's a better attacking defender, but it's at the expense of a defender who can defend better.

Yes, and I'm going to play him as an attacker. I don't care what his positions say, only attributes.

[InzieBear]

I am new to this forum thingy and will be playing as Rangers when the game comes out. I have looked on the Gers and celtic data threads and wonder if someone can confirm how the PA and CA are calculated as i am finding all this stuff fascinating but a little confusing.

I am assuming this is potential ability and current ability. Is it just a case of totting up the numbers in the technical attirbute list of each player?

Also despite having played this game for years and years i never knew you could edit the palyers skills!! Can someone confirm how easy this is to do in FM09? Will i need to download an editor thing from the website or will i be able to do this from the laptop and the game itself?

Thanks, i hope this is ok for this thread. Apologies if i am in the wrong area.

Regards

Inziebear

[Hamenaglar]

I am new to this forum thingy and will be playing as Rangers when the game comes out. I have looked on the Gers and celtic data threads and wonder if someone can confirm how the PA and CA are calculated as i am finding all this stuff fascinating but a little confusing.

I am assuming this is potential ability and current ability. Is it just a case of totting up the numbers in the technical attirbute list of each player?

Also despite having played this game for years and years i never knew you could edit the palyers skills!! Can someone confirm how easy this is to do in FM09? Will i need to download an editor thing from the website or will i be able to do this from the laptop and the game itself?

Thanks, i hope this is ok for this thread. Apologies if i am in the wrong area.

Regards

Inziebear

Indeed CA = current ability, PA = potential ability.

Each attribute depending on a position has a weighting (or a multiplier if you want). For a striker finishing weighs more than tackling obviously. After adding all values of attributes (depending on weightings ofcourse) of a player his RCA (recomended (?) current ability) is calculated. RCA says how high that player's CA should be for those attributes. Ideally CA set by a researcher should be close to the RCA that's calculated by the game. If CA is too high in comparison with RCA, the game will during extraction increase player's attributes all over the board, and vice versa if CA is too low.

In last couple of versions, editor was available with game (no need to download it). Note that in that editor you can't see player's RCA, as it is only used by researchers.

Hope that explains things a little bit.