Just found something amazing!!! Must see!!!

[phnompenhandy]

What will happen is that we will try to stop the weighted attributes in any of the player's primary positions exceeding his CA. But this is unlikely to happen in the next patch, more likely FM2010 if I am being honest.

Which is the ideal practical solution. This all goes to show how SI do listen to us punters and do respond positively where appropriate.

to PaulC, and :thup: to Ljuba82

Now if Paul could just redirect his attention to the shocking coaching revelation here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=62706 ...

[Ljuba82]

Unfortunately, from a research point of view that is impractical.

What will happen is that we will try to stop the weighted attributes in any of the player's primary positions exceeding his CA. But this is unlikely to happen in the next patch, more likely FM2010 if I am being honest.

Fair enough...

...but pay attention to fact that in the case you explained...if we retrain player to another position that player will never reach his PA (if you stop weighted attributes in any of the player's primary positions exceeding his CA)....I mean his RCA will always be below his PA cause his CA will fall via retraining, but if you stop his other attributes to increase with this method you explained, he willl never reach PA.

...that brings us another problem...scouting system...because they will probably say that there is lot of room to improve player, but in truth he will not improve if you employ this system!!!

So it have to be rewritten...

...also...can you comment about "weaker foot bug" explained above...

P.S. Can you explain how scouting system works? I mean are they looking only for CA or something else? I mean Eto, Roney, Drogba...all have similar CA like "Ibrahimovic" that I made in editor, but Ibrahimovic has 7 star rating...while other ST have 5 star rating i reports.

[Majkee]

Fair enough...

...but pay attention to fact that in the case you explained...if we retrain player to another position that player will never reach his PA (if you stop weighted attributes in any of the player's primary positions exceeding his CA)....I mean his RCA will always be below his PA cause his CA will fall via retraining, but if you stop his other attributes to increase with this method you explained, he willl never reach PA.

Ljuba, why not?

Paul has mentioned, "that we will try to stop the weighted attributes in any of the player's primary positions exceeding his CA."

If I understand it well, only primary position related attributes with highest weight will be stopped, any other attributes should raise further to be counted to current CA until it reaches PA. That means, there are lot of attributes, which are not weighted Or am I wrong?

I am little bit lost again.

[zeusbheld]

I'm fairly sure that SI have confirmed in the past that the match-engine only uses attributes, and other things like morale - it doesn't use Current Ability.

isn't CA just the sum of attributes, or is it something more like short term potential--does anyone know? has anyone tested this?

[zeusbheld]

P.S. Can you explain how scouting system works? I mean are they looking only for CA or something else? I mean Eto, Roney, Drogba...all have similar CA like "Ibrahimovic" that I made in editor, but Ibrahimovic has 7 star rating...while other ST have 5 star rating i reports.

i took my first test drive in the editor and i find that the scouts in determining potential of young players are, if anything, far too accurate in tying it to PA.

maybe i'm masochistic but i'd like to trust my scouts *less*.

i'm still not clear on whether there's a gap between CA and attributes at any given moment.

[zeusbheld]

I dunno personally I'm getting a little tired of being told I cant do this or that in game or else the entire thing falls apart. I'm not allowed to allow myself to tinker with the different corner settings or else I get defenders scoring 30+ a season. Now I'm not allowed to fiddle with the training settings or else I get this. Shouldn't a game of this age be able to handle these sort of quirks? Its as though the game has become a little too complex for it own good.

Good God. it's a role playing game, is it not? if the game in no way blocked you from flying around the room as manager of Hull City, would you fly around the room just coz the game allows it?

seems to me no matter how the game is built there are two clear choices:

1) play as if you manage a football team

and

2) go into the editor and make your team into supermen.

in other words, fiddle with the training settings if you'd do it in real life. if not, not. it ain't rocket science.

[PureForce]

this explains why ronaldo always gets worse when i retrain him to be a striker as well

now to retrain him in DC to regain the attributes he lost when i trained him in striker :S

[sthptngomad76]

Good God. it's a role playing game, is it not? if the game in no way blocked you from flying around the room as manager of Hull City, would you fly around the room just coz the game allows it?

seems to me no matter how the game is built there are two clear choices:

1) play as if you manage a football team

and

2) go into the editor and make your team into supermen.

in other words, fiddle with the training settings if you'd do it in real life. if not, not. it ain't rocket science.

If the game, by allowing me to fly around the room as manager of Hull City meant that I would have a better chance of winning than if I didn't choose to fly around the room as manager of Hull City, I would. But ideally I would rather the game engine didn't give me the option of flying around the room as manager of Hull City in order to have a better chance of winning.

Each to their own.

[zeusbheld]

If the game, by allowing me to fly around the room as manager of Hull City meant that I would have a better chance of winning than if I didn't choose to fly around the room as manager of Hull City, I would. But ideally I would rather the game engine didn't give me the option of flying around the room as manager of Hull City in order to have a better chance of winning.

Each to their own.

so i guess you're against the inclusion of the editor on the game CD?

[achurchill]

Good God. it's a role playing game, is it not? if the game in no way blocked you from flying around the room as manager of Hull City, would you fly around the room just coz the game allows it?

seems to me no matter how the game is built there are two clear choices:

1) play as if you manage a football team

and

2) go into the editor and make your team into supermen.

in other words, fiddle with the training settings if you'd do it in real life. if not, not. it ain't rocket science.

Well if you manage a football team you WOULD fiddle with training settings (if you're hands on like many of us like to be). And if you manage a football team, you WOULD put your best headers (usually your CBs) on the near post for flick ons and another at the back post and another challenging the goalkeeper because that's what pretty much EVERY team would do IRL to exploit weaknesses in the opposition defence during set pieces.

Being brought up on the Bould/Adams/Keown/O'Leary era, I saw Arsenal score a lot that way in the George Graham era. It SHOULD create more chances and allow you to score more, that would be realistic, but it shouldn't be as successful as it is in FM. it needs to be toned down a lot so that you don't score as many from those set piece plays.

Same with training - a lot of managers WOULD change training on players, e.g. Attackers being retrained to CBs (Dion Dublin), or vice versa (Paul Warhurst), or Wingers converted to LBs (Kieran Gibbs) or LBs converted to CDMs (Manu Petit), or Attackers becoming LBs (Ashley Cole) and even midfielders converted to Goalkeepers (James Shea at Arsenal), and so on. You wouldn't expect drastic improvements, but you should expect SOME improvement, some of the time.

So the problem for many is that they would indeed do stuff like that inside their NORMAL way of managing their team, but now they're being told they shouldn't because due to the flaws in the game, it gives unrealistic benefits. This what a lot of people are complaining about. However, any managers who didn't do it before, and are now only doing it because they've found out about the exploit aren't going to have any issues with exploiting it, so won't be complaining.

[sthptngomad76]

so i guess you're against the inclusion of the editor on the game CD?

All I'm saying is that I don't like having in-game 'cheats' such as this one (or Diablo in older versions, or corner bugs, or whatever) which I have to pretend don't exist, even if by using them I can increase my side's chances of winning. Its like trying to win, whilst simultaneously not trying to win. That's just my opinion.

[Kewell08]

Brilliant, brilliant thread.

Good response from Paul as well.

I do agree, though, that in its most extreme forms (ST/DC) it isn't something you would just stumble across. The ones that do crop up more often have less effect.

I don't think it's a gamebreaker but it should nonetheless be fixed - and the indication is that it certainly will be for FM10.

[jbrowes]

If its really is that important to unnatually increase a strkers attributes you might a well simply use an in-gamed editor to achieve your targets - same results and a whole lot easier!

[Kewell08]

I think you missed the point.

Yeah, you did. Entirely.

[Warezfan]

what is the point of this thread?

[MSCCG]

I've just remembered something worth mentioning, maybe putting a blanket restriction over stats wouldn't be such a good idea. Think about the benefits of having experience in different positions to a football player IRL. Since we've been talking about ST/DC, I'm going to go with that. If a striker learns how a defender usually tried to defend against him, he would be able to figure out how to avoid that. On the other hand if a defender learns the spaces a striker will try to exploit he will be able to cover those places as well. Added to the technical skills a defender would gain, and the defensive ability the striker would have to close down defenders, it is actually a pretty beneficial thing to have some experience in different positions (thats what she said) asides from having the ability to play in that position in a match.

[zeusbheld]

Well if you manage a football team you WOULD fiddle with training settings (if you're hands on like many of us like to be).

agree, with the caveat that you would train them to do what you wanted them to do, not train them to exploit an apparent flaw on a computer simulator.

And if you manage a football team, you WOULD put your best headers (usually your CBs) on the near post for flick ons and another at the back post and another challenging the goalkeeper because that's what pretty much EVERY team would do IRL to exploit weaknesses in the opposition defence during set pieces.

agree.

Being brought up on the Bould/Adams/Keown/O'Leary era, I saw Arsenal score a lot that way in the George Graham era. It SHOULD create more chances and allow you to score more, that would be realistic, but it shouldn't be as successful as it is in FM. it needs to be toned down a lot so that you don't score as many from those set piece plays.

(somewhat) separate issue, but agree.

micah richards should score some on setpieces, but if i recall, it's robinho who's got 9 goals for city.

Same with training - a lot of managers WOULD change training on players, e.g. Attackers being retrained to CBs (Dion Dublin), or vice versa (Paul Warhurst), or Wingers converted to LBs (Kieran Gibbs) or LBs converted to CDMs (Manu Petit), or Attackers becoming LBs (Ashley Cole) and even midfielders converted to Goalkeepers (James Shea at Arsenal), and so on. You wouldn't expect drastic improvements, but you should expect SOME improvement, some of the time.

totally agree, but with the caveat that you wouldn't train them to those positions unless you had some vague intent of playing them there. that's what i mean by play it like a real manager. you'd never train sergio aguero, as he's represented by the game, as a center half in real life. if you don't do that sort of thing then from what i understand of the flaw its impact will be relatively unobtrusive.

So the problem for many is that they would indeed do stuff like that inside their NORMAL way of managing their team, but now they're being told they shouldn't because due to the flaws in the game, it gives unrealistic benefits. This what a lot of people are complaining about.

totally agree that it's a flaw, and detracts from the overall impression of realism, just not with the people who say it renders the game unplayable.

However, any managers who didn't do it before, and are now only doing it because they've found out about the exploit aren't going to have any issues with exploiting it, so won't be complaining.

they shouldn't be but if many of the complaints on this thread are taken at face value it seems many, knowing there are cookies in the jar, just can't keep their mitts off 'em. then they complain about the unfairness of the temptation.

[nymanr]

Grat thread and really has made my day here at work.

One thing came to mind though. I have a distinct memory of reading about earlier versions that player retraining to new position does cost CA points. Even remember someone from SI confirming this. How is it then possible to get "bonus" CA by retraining a ST to DC if the

CA = PA at the time? Players can't improve if CA is max ( CA = PA ).

Woudn't you have to first cut down on attack training so Attributtes would go down so CA could go down. Then you could get the new position and then Attributes could go upp again. Retaraining to new position is a big tactical boost so it costs alot of CA same as improving players ability with weak foot.

This would mean that the effect of CA "bounus" by retraining would be samller on players with lower CA/PA.

Effect would still be big on players with high PA though.

Another thing that came to mind was the players ability to "maintain" his new position. If he does not play in it wouldn't his stats get worse in it. And how would he improve in a position if he does not play or "train" (practise position specific exercise) in that position?

Natural improvment by CA is possible but it is very slow.

[RT--]

I have a distinct memory of reading about earlier versions that player retraining to new position does cost CA points. Even remember someone from SI confirming this. How is it then possible to get "bonus" CA by retraining a ST to DC if the

CA = PA at the time? Players can't improve if CA is max ( CA = PA )..

Current Ability is calculated something like this:

(Attribute 1 x weighting for that attribute, given the player's position) +

(Attribute 2 x weighting for that attribute, given the player's position) +

(Attribute 3.....) etc

=

Current Ability.

Each attribute is given a certain 'weighting' depending on how important it is considered for that position. For a DC, for instance, things like marking and tackling will have high weights, whereas something like technique would be quite low. If a players attributes exceed his Current Ability, as inputted by the researcher, then all the attributes will be scaled down so that they match.

What happens when a player takes on a new position (or has multiple positions set in the editor) is that the weightings for the attributes all change. If our DC becomes a striker as well, things like finishing and long shots will now have higher weightings, with the effect that things like tackling and marking now have to have slightly lower weightings. What happens then is that the attributes and their new weightings will probably add up to slightly less than the Current Ability (or they could, in some cases add up to more), so the attributes are all increased or decreased slightly until they match.

So, basically, the Current Ability never changes, it's just that the attributes do - and that's because of the position-specific weightings that are being used to ensure that attributes and Current Ability always match up.

[Tyler42]

It works for 2009...and it will work for every version of 2009 no matter if you have a patch. This is a big bug and I'm afraid they can't fix it for this version cause it will change whole game, but I think that they will have lots of problems for FM10...

But fixing this and changing CA, PA system for FM10 is a MUST!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE SI!!!

WOW CAPS LOCK ON CRUISE CONTROL WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION WONT IT?

This "bug" you speak of requires editors and 3rd party programs, without them this bug is rather useless.

[RT--]

WOW CAPS LOCK ON CRUISE CONTROL WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION WONT IT?

This "bug" you speak of requires editors and 3rd party programs, without them this bug is rather useless.

It's slightly broader than that, Tyler.

Players who have multiple positions set in the database (or regens who have more than one position) can end up having much higher attributes than they 'should' be able to, according to their Current Ability. The AI can't spot this, but human users can, which unbalances the game a little bit.

It's not a massive problem, but it's definitely not just a problem if you use the editor/3rd party software. And to be fair Ljuba, he's spotted this issue and communicated it fairly well in a second language, meaning that it'll probably be altered for future versions of the game.

[nymanr]

Current Ability is calculated something like this:

(Attribute 1 x weighting for that attribute, given the player's position) +

(Attribute 2 x weighting for that attribute, given the player's position) +

(Attribute 3.....) etc

=

Current Ability.

Each attribute is given a certain 'weighting' depending on how important it is considered for that position. For a DC, for instance, things like marking and tackling will have high weights, whereas something like technique would be quite low. If a players attributes exceed his Current Ability, as inputted by the researcher, then all the attributes will be scaled down so that they match.

What happens when a player takes on a new position (or has multiple positions set in the editor) is that the weightings for the attributes all change. If our DC becomes a striker as well, things like finishing and long shots will now have higher weightings, with the effect that things like tackling and marking now have to have slightly lower weightings. What happens then is that the attributes and their new weightings will probably add up to slightly less than the Current Ability (or they could, in some cases add up to more), so the attributes are all increased or decreased slightly until they match.

So, basically, the Current Ability never changes, it's just that the attributes do - and that's because of the position-specific weightings that are being used to ensure that attributes and Current Ability always match up.

I understand the aspect of attribute weighting. It has been discussed before. I also understand that CA is a sum of given attributes. But as you need CA points to give your palyer a new palying position the effect of the gained points that you get by the new weighting for position the effect of overal attribute gain becomes smaller.

Question was how can you retrain to a new position if you are at max CA/PA (CA=PA).

This can only happen if your CA becoms lover so you then can get the "bonus" of a new weighting?

[Socdk]

...all other attributes are same.

1st AML with right foot 20, left 19...........179 CA

2nd AML with left foot 20, right 19............174 CA

3rd AML with right foot 20, left 1..............145 CA

4th AML with left foot 20, right 1..............160 CA

5th AML with right foot 20, left 15.............172 CA

6th AML with left foot 20, right 15.............171 CA

....it's not logic that if 1st player is better than second......that 4th is better than 3rd...

First off let me just make it clear that I haven't read this thread through, just skimmed the last page. So there might be something I'm not aware of... But:

Sure it is logical that "if 1st player is better than second......that 4th is better than 3rd...". The only thing that is not logical is that 1st is better than 2nd. Left foot weights more on CA untill a certain point (perhaps 15). So if an AML don't have any skill what so ever on his left foot, then surely he is less effective than an AML with 20 in left foot. Obviously it is not just an equation like CA = A * B . This must mean that there are more factors in terms of "if"s and "but"s. So by your calculation you can't really determine if it's logical or not.

[Socdk]

Unfortunately, from a research point of view that is impractical.

What will happen is that we will try to stop the weighted attributes in any of the player's primary positions exceeding his CA. But this is unlikely to happen in the next patch, more likely FM2010 if I am being honest.

Hmm... Wasn't it the same in FM08? You've had plenty of time

[Mr Sandman]

on FM08 my younger brother created a 200CA goalkeeper for Colchester, no word of a lie the keeper scored 116 goals in the season, all from his kick outs

[Ljuba82]

I understand the aspect of attribute weighting. It has been discussed before. I also understand that CA is a sum of given attributes. But as you need CA points to give your palyer a new palying position the effect of the gained points that you get by the new weighting for position the effect of overal attribute gain becomes smaller.

Question was how can you retrain to a new position if you are at max CA/PA (CA=PA).

This can only happen if your CA becoms lover so you then can get the "bonus" of a new weighting?

...but retraining to other position don't use CA points!!!

Retraining just change attribute weightening, so player could become better (att are increasing ) or worse (att are dicreasing). CA remains the same!!!

First off let me just make it clear that I haven't read this thread through, just skimmed the last page. So there might be something I'm not aware of... But:

Sure it is logical that "if 1st player is better than second......that 4th is better than 3rd...". The only thing that is not logical is that 1st is better than 2nd. Left foot weights more on CA untill a certain point (perhaps 15). So if an AML don't have any skill what so ever on his left foot, then surely he is less effective than an AML with 20 in left foot. Obviously it is not just an equation like CA = A * B . This must mean that there are more factors in terms of "if"s and "but"s. So by your calculation you can't really determine if it's logical or not.

No...it's not logical...

...if AML (20 left, 1 right) have 160 CA while AML (20 right, 1 left) have 145 CA...that means that left foot is more important for left winger (and ok...it's logical for me that it's more important, because of crossing and...)

...well than it should be logical that AML (20 left, 19 right) should be a little better than AML (20 right, 19 left)...because left foot is more important.

BUT it's not the CASE...AML 20 right, 19 left have bigger CA!!!

WOW CAPS LOCK ON CRUISE CONTROL WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION WONT IT?

This "bug" you speak of requires editors and 3rd party programs, without them this bug is rather useless.

No it doesn't require other programs. I used other programs just to proove my theory. You can do this in game and for me it's MAJOR bug.

...and if this is bothering you and you don't want to read it all (cause it's obvious you didn't read it) then please don't comment if you don't have anything smart to say!!!

[Socdk]

No...it's not logical...

...if AML (20 left, 1 right) have 160 CA while AML (20 right, 1 left) have 145 CA...that means that left foot is more important for left winger (and ok...it's logical for me that it's more important, because of crossing and...)

...well than it should be logical that AML (20 left, 19 right) should be a little better than AML (20 right, 19 left)...because left foot is more important.

BUT it's not the CASE...AML 20 right, 19 left have bigger CA!!!

Yeah but obviously the equation is not that simple. The left foot is the more important foot to a degree. Once it the left foot skill goes over a certain value, then the right foot (opp. foot of position) will start to weigh more heavy on the CA scale. I don't know the values, but I would guess that when left foot reaches 15 right foot weighs more since it is the "extra foot". Obviously the extra foot is valued more than the natural foot when they reach high-end values.

And this is logical actually. Once the player is good with his natural side foot, the extra foot allows him more options. Having a left foot 20 and right foot 1 would render him hugely worthless when showed on to his right foot. When right foot becomes good (IE 15-20) the player can now chose to cut inside with success making him a much tougher opponent. This isn't really such a bad move from SI, and it's definately not a bug. It's just their take on things and I agree with it (mostly).

Logical-wise it is more logical that the extra foot becomes more valuable once your natural foot is good. And if you mean that it's not logical looking at the math in it, then perhaps you don't know the correct equation? As I said "If"s can be added to math. (I don't know english math terms so bear with me). Some sort of (IF natural side foot value is higher than X then -) is implemented into the equation.

[aka.arrogantio]

I think, if my memory of Lubja's earlier posts from a couple of days ago is correct, the main problem identified was that the effects of good weaker right foot on left wingers didn't exactly mirror the effects of a good weaker left on right wingers, and vice versa, which is illogical.

on FM08 my younger brother created a 200CA goalkeeper for Colchester, no word of a lie the keeper scored 116 goals in the season, all from his kick outs

Well back in the days of CM97/98 my Auntie's neighbour's cousin's dog created a 200CA striker that scored 1000 goals in one season, fed the hungry and negotiated peace in the Middle East. No word of lie.

[matt_132]

^^^ hahahaha

btw i think that some people slagging off this thread need to read it

[Ljuba82]

Yeah but obviously the equation is not that simple. The left foot is the more important foot to a degree. Once it the left foot skill goes over a certain value, then the right foot (opp. foot of position) will start to weigh

No, it's not the case. Weight for weaker foot is same for all players and it is linear...whatever player's weaker foot rating is.

[Pompeyboyz]

I have been reading through this thread and picking things up but I have a quick question that I am wondering about.

On the basis of the retraining a ST to DC and the ST skills improve......should this mean the ST will play better?

[phnompenhandy]

I have been reading through this thread and picking things up but I have a quick question that I am wondering about.

On the basis of the retraining a ST to DC and the ST skills improve......should this mean the ST will play better?

Of course. Their attacking attributes will shoot up.

[Pompeyboyz]

Then this could be the answer to the problematic playing 2 ST and only one doing well then???

[phnompenhandy]

Then this could be the answer to the problematic playing 2 ST and only one doing well then???

It could be - providing that you want to use a totally unnatural exploit.

So, it is Crouchie or Defoe who's underperforming?

[Pompeyboyz]

Mostly Defoe....Crouch is great but if I play Crouch with Adriano then Adriano underperforms but Adriano with Defoe it is defoe that under performs and I switch positions so I know it isn't a problem there.

Oh and Altidore is just appalling for me too

[Ljuba82]

Then this could be the answer to the problematic playing 2 ST and only one doing well then???

I don't see connection between using 2 ST and this issue.

[zeusbheld]

^^^ hahahaha

btw i think that some people slagging off this thread need to read it

that is true for well over 90 percent of FM-related threads.

[zeusbheld]

Yes, but people should know...let SI to deserve their money...

always better to bring it up. in fact, the SI community has influenced the game in the past (although probably not as much as the SI community would like).

[Neb]

Is it just as simple as making players refuse to retrain in a position they aren't any good at? If I've a young striker that has rubbish defensive skills and I ask him to retrain as a defender, he'll not be a very good defender, but his attacking attributes will increase. Just make the AI check that before a player accepts to retrain it looks to see whether he'd be any good at it first. If he will be good, then there wouldn't be any exploitation advantage of retraining him in the first place.

I've always played in defence. I'm rubbish upfront, no composure, no technique and can't finish. If I was asked to retrain as a striker I think I'd tell the coach to stop being stupid. If I was good at it the coach might want me to play there, but he'd acknowledge that I might not be as good in defence as a result. My good attacking attributes would reduce my defensive ability due to using up CA points.

This solution doesn't affect existing players with multiple positions in the database, only the exploit to train players to new positions.

[RT--]

It doesn't affect existing players with multiple positions in the database

It does, unfortunately.

[The-Perfect-Fm'er!]

Who cares, well done you can go on the editor and edit someone stats to make him brilliant, that's called cheating.

[Neb]

It does, unfortunately.

I know, but my solution doesn't. Sorry, didn't word that very well!

My thought was that SI has the ability to make changes to the players in the database if it so wishes. Its the exploit where managers can ask a player to learn a skill that concerns me. If a DC is already in the game as a ST, then he's probably reasonably good at it, so the effect of the weighted attributes wouldn't be that great. Its the young ST that is asked to train DC solely because it'll make them a better ST that is the problem and I think my solution above would prevent it happening.

[Neb]

Who cares' date=' well done you can go on the editor and edit someone stats to make him brilliant, that's called cheating.[/quote']

read the thread mate. its enlightening...

You can do it without any editors... thats the point you missed!

[HerrKaputt]

I'd like to ask the original poster, Ljuba82, to do the following:

- Edit the original post saying that this is NOT a cheat and that you do NOT need to use the editor

- Also edit it with a step-by-step "recipe" to see the effects of this in FM. Have two such "recipes", one using the editor (which can be done quickly, if someone wants to see this) and one using just the game, for example something like

"Take the original FM database, size small, take Juventus, and immediately start training Ibrahimovic as DC, keeping the general training schedule. Go on holiday until end of season and check the evolution of his finishing. Then restart the game with everything equal but do not retrain Ibra to DC, just keep him on the general schedule, and go on holiday until end of season, and check his finishing."

This would make people stop coming here saying "big deal, you found a cheat", and would draw attention to the fact that it is not a cheat and can be done in the game itself without the editor or third-party programs.

If you don't do it, I don't blame you -- it would be a bit of work. If you wait a while, I will make such a post here and you can just copy/paste it to your first post.

[phnompenhandy]

I'd like to ask the original poster, Ljuba82, to do the following:

- Edit the original post saying that this is NOT a cheat and that you do NOT need to use the editor ... If you don't do it, I don't blame you -- it would be a bit of work. If you wait a while, I will make such a post here and you can just copy/paste it to your first post.

The problem with that is that you can only edit your post for about 5 minutes after you first post it.

[HerrKaputt]

The problem with that is that you can only edit your post for about 5 minutes after you first post it.

Not true. I can still edit my second-to-last post (on this page), which is from Nov 24th.

[phnompenhandy]

Oh! They changed it then - it was 5 mins when the new function was introduced! Good to know!

[Pompeyboyz]

I don't see connection between using 2 ST and this issue.

Having just spent the best part of 2 hours at work reading the whole of the thread I understnd the situation better and retract my initial belief that this would cure the 2 ST tactic bug as a whole but in simple terms it should make my ST better players. The tactic bug will still mean they don't perform as well as they should.

PS Ljuba82......I hate you for making my head hurt with all the information on this thread.....I need to lie down in a darkened room for a few days :D:D

[Pompeyboyz]

Just gonna stick my neck on the line here a little

If I was to play about with an editor and make a side that was a perfect 4-4-2 side ie GK, DL, DR, 2xDC, ML, MR, 2xMC, 2xST and make em all 150 CA but leave the attributes blank so the database spreads them about as should be. And then made a similar 4-4-2 team with the same 150 CA and blank attributes but made em cross positional ie GK, DL/AMR, DR/AML, 2xDC/AMC, etc...the second team should perform better than the first due to the increased attributes to cover the CA bug?

[HerrKaputt]

Just gonna stick my neck on the line here a little

If I was to play about with an editor and make a side that was a perfect 4-4-2 side ie GK, DL, DR, 2xDC, ML, MR, 2xMC, 2xST and make em all 150 CA but leave the attributes blank so the database spreads them about as should be. And then made a similar 4-4-2 team with the same 150 CA and blank attributes but made em cross positional ie GK, DL/AMR, DR/AML, 2xDC/AMC, etc...the second team should perform better than the first due to the increased attributes to cover the CA bug?

In short: yes.