Maradonna in racist behaviour allegations

[Weezer]

No, I don't speak for them all like I said, just the ones I know personally. The ones I know are very self-deprecating though and would be just as likely to pull out the same gesture as Maradona in reference to themselves. Everybody is different, I appreciate, was just giving my experience of Chinese people, a very small percentage of the Asian population  

I don't know any Koreans though, has anybody asked if the Korean fans were offended?

I don't think anybody's called it an appropriate thing to do though, he's a moron at best.

[georginho_juventusygr]

Maradona probably also had severe mental breakdown after watching Messi's low-energy penalty.

[Icondacarver]

9 minutes ago, Weezer said:

No, I don't speak for them all like I said, just the ones I know personally. The ones I know are very self-deprecating though and would be just as likely to pull out the same gesture as Maradona in reference to themselves. Everybody is different, I appreciate, was just giving my experience of Chinese people, a very small percentage of the Asian population  

I don't know any Koreans though, has anybody asked if the Korean fans were offended?

This is what i was referring too. My girlfriend is also self-deprecating and up for banter. She gives as good as she would get but I just can't assume her reaction to the incident without asking her and her response was she would be upset about it.

Your mates are "just as likely" says you do not know with certainty hence why i asked if you asked them. You have made an assumption (not even 100% certain), that a minute percentage of the Asian population would laugh off the banter. This then reduces your experience to having little or no relevance to the conversation beyond "I know a handful of guys who would not be upset"

That is the same as me saying, "I know women at my office who would laugh if you called her sweetheart". Has very little relevance on whether calling someone that in a work environment is appropriate IMO

[Weezer]

10 minutes ago, Icondacarver said:

This is what i was referring too. My girlfriend is also self-deprecating and up for banter. She gives as good as she would get but I just can't assume her reaction to the incident without asking her and her response was she would be upset about it.

Your mates are "just as likely" says you do not know with certainty hence why i asked if you asked them. You have made an assumption (not even 100% certain), that a minute percentage of the Asian population would laugh off the banter. This then reduces your experience to having little or no relevance to the conversation beyond "I know a handful of guys who would not be upset"

That is the same as me saying, "I know women at my office who would laugh if you called her sweetheart". Has very little relevance on whether calling someone that in a work environment is appropriate IMO

Just to pick you up on that, that's more semantics tbh. I am 100% certain they would laugh it off (they being the people I know well personally). Sure if it was a stranger to them they might think the guy was an idiot and laugh at his stupidity but I'm certain they wouldn't be offended.

I wasn't meaning to give a commentary on the whole Asian population, it was just a simple anecdote about my personal experience. I make jokes targeting their culture and customs and they give as good as they get about mine, none of us are offended by it. It's about knowing your audience though, and Maradona obviously made that gesture not knowing how those particular Koreans would react to it, thus making him an idiot, but not necessarily a malicious racist.

Wasn't it about this time last week we were having a similar discussion about race and Raheem Sterling?   I'm going to walk away now before somebody compares me to Maradona. Or Hitler.  

[Icondacarver]

4 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Wasn't it about this time last week we were having a similar discussion about race and Raheem Sterling?   I'm going to walk away now before somebody compares me to Maradona. Or Hitler.  

Oh yea 

If the moustache fits, just kidding 

[RBKalle]

4 ore fa, mark1985 ha scritto:

So by that logic, places with a minimal black population should be allowed to use the n word and other racial slurs towards black people? Same with south Asian or subcontinent populations.

Well, I'd question the need to even refer to a pretty much non-existing group to begin with, be it with an offensive or an accepted word... If you live in Brazil, would you worry about the right way to address a Buthanese person?

You can't assume every single person has experienced cultural diversity and has learnt how to navigate through the minefield of acceptable/iffy/unacceptable names for each ethnic group. If all I know about black culture is hip-hop (and I'm not a native English speaker), how can I know the N-word is a "privilege" and outsiders can't even think about using it? You know, I actually had to tell a couple of very white preteens it wasn't cool going around and greeting eachother with "yo, n.....!". They just thought it was a cool American saying...

Moreover, in many romance languages, the equivalent of the N-word is actually among the standard terms to define a dark-skinned person, or, in many cases, ANYTHING dark/black... It gets racially offensive if you use "effin'" or any other disparaging adjective before it though. So context is the key...

 

4 ore fa, mark1985 ha scritto:

And also by your logic, if I say or do something offensive to you and you tell me it’s offensive, can I just disregard your opinion because I was having a bit of harmless fun?

Duh, of course not, but if it wasn't said with malice and you couldn't possibly know it was offensive to me (due to cultural differences), I won't call you a racist or a piece of crap for that.

I'd explain it to you and we'd go on with our lives. Just like that time I wanted to shake hands with a Muslim girl I was introduced to...

Or all the times I didn't lose my **** when people made an "are you blind" joke...

[mark1985]

I see where you’re coming from and having lived in places outside of the U.K. which are almost entirely white and rural, I heard plenty of dodgy things. Someone really needs to have a word with Maradona to tell him that whether he meant it or not (or knew of the context), he can’t do that.

I know about the Romance languages and their word for black etc (I speak Italian plus a little Spanish and French) and it’s of course all about context. Even then it may/may not offend some people. It’s all a bit of a minefield especially in a foreign language. 

[noikeee]

2 hours ago, RBKalle said:

You can't assume every single person has experienced cultural diversity and has learnt how to navigate through the minefield of acceptable/iffy/unacceptable names for each ethnic group. If all I know about black culture is hip-hop (and I'm not a native English speaker), how can I know the N-word is a "privilege" and outsiders can't even think about using it? You know, I actually had to tell a couple of very white preteens it wasn't cool going around and greeting eachother with "yo, n.....!". They just thought it was a cool American saying...

Just today I heard one of my friends saying it in the middle of a joke talking to our American friends, he only speaks limited English and has absolutely no idea about the massive negative charging of the word... Cringeworthy but everyone knows no harm was intended.

Maradona comes from a culture where people are nowhere near as mentally invested in constantly attempting to avoid offence. Couple that with him being a bit of a tit of a person, that's hardly any concerned about having tact on any subject whatsoever, and you get moments like this.

I get it that getting rid of racism, stereotypes, discrimination is very important, and just like I said Maradona is a tit. And no doubt Latin countries perhaps are a little step behind in tackling racism as Britain for example is (because historical context has never led to them looking racism in the face as hard as the Brits had to, thanks to the diversity of people in the UK, and the introspective take at some point they rightly took at their colonial past). But it does get a little tiring to read about these outrages that grill people from other cultures by trying to judge them by the standards and contexts of their own culture, and everywhere on the internet it seems to be always the Brits on the forefront of pushing this narrative.

[G-Man11]

13 hours ago, Weezer said:

Can you do something racist without being a racist yourself? It's complicated but imho you probably can. It's not exactly something to be proud of, not knowing a gesture is racist through either your own stupidity or ignorance but still, doesn't necessarily make him a racist.

No. Because imho every single person in the world is actually subconsciously racist at some level.

And by that I don't mean that say all white people deep down think black people are apes but that everyone has some sort of inherent racial biases that are unavoidable. Some people are obviously far more racist than others and some of us feel like we are essentially free of racism, but the fact is we all are racist to some extent.

[Boltman]

On 16/06/2018 at 22:19, Heartwork said:

You forgot "punch ball"

Lies. 

Was a fantastic header, one of the greatest in Scotland's footballing history.

[Icondacarver]

6 hours ago, G-Man11 said:

And by that I don't mean that say all white people deep down think black people are apes but that everyone has some sort of inherent racial biases that are unavoidable. Some people are obviously far more racist than others and some of us feel like we are essentially free of racism, but the fact is we all are racist to some extent.

Is this universally true and at what age does this kick in? I have seen you post this a few times but when i look at some of the very young generations coming through in truly multicultural social groups, you see very little race (colour) or religious bias although the other biases are still there like gender. A small subset granted but its presence casts doubts on the everyone being inherently biased by race

I personally feel that racial bias is taught or learned rather than inherent. I think there was a science paper that said a large portion of people have an implicit bias but not all

[ham_aka_stam]

16 minutes ago, Icondacarver said:

Is this universally true and at what age does this kick in? I have seen you post this a few times but when i look at some of the very young generations coming through in truly multicultural social groups, you see very little race (colour) or religious bias although the other biases are still there like gender. A small subset granted but its presence casts doubts on the everyone being inherently biased by race

I personally feel that racial bias is taught or learned rather than inherent. I think there was a science paper that said a large portion of people have an implicit bias but not all

Personally I think it happens with contact with the media/society tbh.  Until roles/positions etc. in public are more equal, kids are going to grow up to some degree thinking superheros, doctors and politicians are all white and black people are more likely to be sportsmen, rappers, or in prison.  I thought that's why there was such positive noise about Luke Cage and Black Panther etc.?  Humans are very good at plotting patterns in their head and learning to behave in response.  If that inequality is what we put in then we're going to get the same out.

You're talking about kids in multicultural societies too, and a lot of kids don't grow up in those sorts of environments, their parents may be racist, blaming everything on various ethnic/religious groups.  But yeah, it's definitely learned.

[Crispypaul]

58 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

Personally I think it happens with contact with the media/society tbh.  Until roles/positions etc. in public are more equal, kids are going to grow up to some degree thinking superheros, doctors and politicians are all white and black people are more likely to be sportsmen, rappers, or in prison.  I thought that's why there was such positive noise about Luke Cage and Black Panther etc.?  Humans are very good at plotting patterns in their head and learning to behave in response.  If that inequality is what we put in then we're going to get the same out.

You're talking about kids in multicultural societies too, and a lot of kids don't grow up in those sorts of environments, their parents may be racist, blaming everything on various ethnic/religious groups.  But yeah, it's definitely learned.

Equality of opportunity over outcome though.

I think we're heading that way for the former although the latter seems to be the preference for some "progressives" sadly

[Weezer]

Korean manager has a sense of humour. I’m sure somebody will find this racist though.

 

[ham_aka_stam]

3 hours ago, Crispypaul said:

Equality of opportunity over outcome though.

I think we're heading that way for the former although the latter seems to be the preference for some "progressives" sadly

But in my example, until there are a representative number of black people in the media who are "successful" you're not giving equality of opportunity.

Whilst those who aren't racist like to think race doesn't exist, it very much does, and it's been shown that minority kids need to see people "like them" succeeding or they'll grow up thinking that the world is stacked against them, which has the net result of perpetuating whatever problems already exist.

The same applies to gender, and why there's such a stress on getting women in STEM fields to make themselves known and share their stories.  

[mark1985]

4 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

But in my example, until there are a representative number of black people in the media who are "successful" you're not giving equality of opportunity.

Whilst those who aren't racist like to think race doesn't exist, it very much does, and it's been shown that minority kids need to see people "like them" succeeding or they'll grow up thinking that the world is stacked against them, which has the net result of perpetuating whatever problems already exist.

The same applies to gender, and why there's such a stress on getting women in STEM fields to make themselves known and share their stories.  

Wasn’t there a study a while back where they sent out identical CVs with different names on which were stereotypical of certain colours/races, genders, socio-economic class etc (white male, white female, Hispanic, black etc) and the cv with a stereotypically white male name got a lot more call backs despite the CVs being identical?

[Crispypaul]

8 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

But in my example, until there are a representative number of black people in the media who are "successful" you're not giving equality of opportunity.

That is not proof of no equality of opportunity at all.  Where is the proof they are being denied the same ability to be in the media as white Britons? 

Also the UK is 87% white or so of which only 3% are black.  So its not going to be that common anyway. 

 

[PMLF]

6 hours ago, Icondacarver said:

Is this universally true and at what age does this kick in? I have seen you post this a few times but when i look at some of the very young generations coming through in truly multicultural social groups, you see very little race (colour) or religious bias although the other biases are still there like gender. A small subset granted but its presence casts doubts on the everyone being inherently biased by race

I personally feel that racial bias is taught or learned rather than inherent. I think there was a science paper that said a large portion of people have an implicit bias but not all

I think inherent bias is more regarding a group than something so artificial like race.

If you live in a certain city or neighborhood, you may have a bias against people from another neighborhood or city, for example. 

[Icondacarver]

1 hour ago, mark1985 said:

Wasn’t there a study a while back where they sent out identical CVs with different names on which were stereotypical of certain colours/races, genders, socio-economic class etc (white male, white female, Hispanic, black etc) and the cv with a stereotypically white male name got a lot more call backs despite the CVs being identical?

Yup.

That is the case especially worse where a company relies on recruiters. Those guys work on commission and so go for what they see as the "sure thing" candidate so back white males over any other group. We had to tell our recruiter to improve the diversity of candidates and they responded by sending more white females but that was it.

[Icondacarver]

1 hour ago, Crispypaul said:

That is not proof of no equality of opportunity at all.  Where is the proof they are being denied the same ability to be in the media as white Britons? 

Also the UK is 87% white or so of which only 3% are black.  So its not going to be that common anyway. 

 

How do you seek out this proof? Unless people start volunteering that they have been biased, we will get no proof.

Humans are meant to be equal so when you see the ratios of a certain group dwindle in certain circumstances then other factors are obviously at play be it socio-economic bias or otherwise

In most industries, the number of minorities is reflective or even over indexing of minorities in lower level positions but as soon as you get to the senior level leadership roles they are almost non-existent. Similar to how BAME players are all over the premiership and even in coaching roles but hardly any managers until the FA stepped in

[Crispypaul]

Just now, Icondacarver said:

How do you seek out this proof? Unless people start volunteering that they have been biased, we will get no proof.

Humans are meant to be equal so when you see the ratios of a certain group dwindle in certain circumstances then other factors are obviously at play be it socio-economic bias or otherwise

In most industries, the number of minorities is reflective or even over indexing of minorities in lower level positions but as soon as you get to the senior level leadership roles they are almost non-existent. Similar to how BAME players are all over the premiership and even in coaching roles but hardly any managers until the FA stepped in

The latter examples might just be a case of age, though - my understanding is that ethnic minorities in the UK tend to be younger on average than the populace at large therefore it is less likely they will be in more senior positions currently.   I reckon that's partly an issue with football - along with admittedly historical issues around racism which would have affected black players from the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Icondacarver]

57 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

The latter examples might just be a case of age, though - my understanding is that ethnic minorities in the UK tend to be younger on average than the populace at large therefore it is less likely they will be in more senior positions currently.   I reckon that's partly an issue with football - along with admittedly historical issues around racism which would have affected black players from the 1970s and 1980s.

 

One of many assumptions but bear in mind that children of first generation immigrants would be in their 60s now and their children would be in their 30s and 40s. Look at your blue chip grad programmes, and leadership programmes and you see the same lack of minority representation compared to the number of graduates (minorities over-index in higher education versus the population)

That is before you get into innocent cultural barriers that affect them. A perfect example is that constant eye contact is seen as a desirable trait and a positive in the Western workplace but many cultures frown on eye contact with your elders or superiors and their kids are brought up to avoid eye contact as it is seen as aggressive and antagonistic. Without a disproportionate effort made to get minorities into key positions in every work of life then these issues will remain barriers.

Hams example about the media is perfect, a young black person in the UK sees sports stars, musicians, actors, comedians, a chef or two and newsreaders as the only famous black faces. They need to see more captains of industry within Medicine, Engineering, FTSE 100 board members etc but those roles are so far removed due to bias that you have to force the issue the same way they are doing with gender diversity.

[Crispypaul]

28 minutes ago, Icondacarver said:

That is before you get into innocent cultural barriers that affect them. A perfect example is that constant eye contact is seen as a desirable trait and a positive in the Western workplace but many cultures frown on eye contact with your elders or superiors and their kids are brought up to avoid eye contact as it is seen as aggressive and antagonistic. Without a disproportionate effort made to get minorities into key positions in every work of life then these issues will remain barriers.

Sorry but this is just bizarre - eye contact is seen as important in Western culture and your solution is for that culture to adapt rather than a minority culture to adapt?  That's really not how these things work.

It's also the case that in current Western culture women are to be treated the same as men, but in some minority cultures this is not true.  Is the Western culture supposed to adapt too?

[PMLF]

1 minute ago, Crispypaul said:

Sorry but this is just bizarre - eye contact is seen as important in Western culture and your solution is for that culture to adapt rather than a minority culture to adapt?  That's really not how these things work.

It's also the case that in current Western culture women are to be treated the same as men, but in some minority cultures this is not true.  Is the Western culture supposed to adapt too?

Yes, obviously newcomers and immigrants have to assimilate into their host nation, not the other way around.

'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' etc

[Icondacarver]

31 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

Sorry but this is just bizarre - eye contact is seen as important in Western culture and your solution is for that culture to adapt rather than a minority culture to adapt?  That's really not how these things work.

It's also the case that in current Western culture women are to be treated the same as men, but in some minority cultures this is not true.  Is the Western culture supposed to adapt too?

Where did I say that? 

I said that without getting other minorities into positions of power then those barriers remain an issue. You do not change the culture, you bring a level of understanding. If a person from that culture is sat in the interview then they will understand why there is lack of eye contact and it will be less of a problem. Same way workplaces adapt for fasting workers or those who need to grow a beard. You are not changing the culture but accommodating it.

The fact you read my text and quickly went for the "minorities should adapt" sums up your mindset in this fairly theoretical conversation 

[Icondacarver]

32 minutes ago, PMLF said:

Yes, obviously newcomers and immigrants have to assimilate into their host nation, not the other way around.

'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' etc

Point me to where someone said otherwise but thanks for the input 

[PMLF]

Just now, Icondacarver said:

Point me to where someone said otherwise but thanks for the input 

I was just agreeing with his comment, whether someone here said otherwise or not, I don't know. 

[G-Man11]

I love how I've completely derailed the thread from Maradonna to the root causes of Racism .

9 hours ago, Icondacarver said:

Is this universally true and at what age does this kick in? I have seen you post this a few times but when i look at some of the very young generations coming through in truly multicultural social groups, you see very little race (colour) or religious bias although the other biases are still there like gender. A small subset granted but its presence casts doubts on the everyone being inherently biased by race

I personally feel that racial bias is taught or learned rather than inherent. I think there was a science paper that said a large portion of people have an implicit bias but not all

 

9 hours ago, ham_aka_stam said:

Personally I think it happens with contact with the media/society tbh.  Until roles/positions etc. in public are more equal, kids are going to grow up to some degree thinking superheros, doctors and politicians are all white and black people are more likely to be sportsmen, rappers, or in prison.  I thought that's why there was such positive noise about Luke Cage and Black Panther etc.?  Humans are very good at plotting patterns in their head and learning to behave in response.  If that inequality is what we put in then we're going to get the same out.

You're talking about kids in multicultural societies too, and a lot of kids don't grow up in those sorts of environments, their parents may be racist, blaming everything on various ethnic/religious groups.  But yeah, it's definitely learned.

Yeah I do agree with this in a way. The racism we all have inherently is indeed learnt by children but it's always still going to happen until we can become a truly multicultural society (as in a very even divide of all races/creeds etc), which seems unlikely. I guess I don't just mean racism by the literal term as well but basically any forms of biases/assumptions about people who are different to us/what we grew up around.

[The_jagster]

I'm not sure we're inherently racist but we are inherently biased towards who we grow up with - a baby who only sees white faces finds white people more attractive later in life and black faces more attractive if they see black faces, same with hair colour etc. And we are more favourable to attractive people. So even if we educate we'll still be 'racist' at a subconscious level, as we see immediate family more than our multicultural neighbours.