Tactics - Piecing Them All Together

[Cleon]

This is taken from my blog https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/

If you’ve followed my articles before you’ll have heard me talk about how important it is, that you understand how the roles, duties, team instructions and player instructions all work as a system and come together to give you the end product. When I talk about this I always get comments asking how someone does that or what do I really mean when I say that. So hopefully this article will show you how my tactic all links together and how everything links up.

A lot of tactics I see, seem to focus on individuals more than playing as a cohesive unit. If the team is full of players playing for themselves rather than the team, then you can struggle to get any form of consistency going because you rely on the individual more than the team. I’m not saying that having a team full of individuals playing for themselves rather than the team can’t work but it’s highly unlikely. You might have patchy form or struggle in certain scenarios as you are reliant on the individual doing that one bit of magic that is needed.

So how do we piece it all together? First we have to understand the shape I’m using.

It’s the 3-5-2 from the Sheffield United save that I am currently playing. Those are the exact roles and settings that I’m currently writing about. Now I’ve done a couple of articles about the roles I’m using but the focus of those were about the individual and not as a collective. They just focused on how the player plays the role rather than how he functions for the team. I’ll probably link to them a little later in the article.

Before we start with any kind of analysis though we need to talk about the pros and cons of how I currently play.

3-5-2 General Overview

Pros

• One of the main selling points of the 3-5-2 is the use of two strikers.
• Wingbacks provide width.
• Three central midfielders allows you to match most opponents in the centre of midfield.
• Quick transitions going forward

Cons

• The centre backs can get dragged wide if the wingbacks are out of position or don’t deal with danger.
• Wingbacks can be exposed and doubled up on at times.
• Centre Backs can be wasted against one man striker formations.

That’s just a brief snapshot of the 3-5-2 in general. But then when you look at the roles and duties I used, it changes the above slightly as the roles and duties you use, create new issues.

Now because of those things, we also have to add these to the list too;

3-5-2 Player Roles and Duties

Pros

• Commits numbers forward with an aggressive midfielder and both wingbacks venturing forward frequently.
• Good support from the central areas and wide areas.

Cons

• I could leave the wings exposed.
• No real defensive midfielder.
• The centre backs will have to cover the flanks and the central areas, meaning the might get stretched at times.

Even though the mentality I use isn’t that aggressive, the roles and duties I use are which means, I will give up space quite easily at times. Especially in the areas I mentioned I above. It’s not the end of the world though and I’m a big believer of risk vs reward. Meaning, it’s fine to give up space, it’s fine for the opposition to have possession etc as long as, my team do the things that I expect of them and carry it out to a good standard.

I’m not trying to play the perfect game but I am creating my own footballing philosophy that happens to be risky football that focuses on committing players forward from different areas of the pitch. This will then provide me lots of options when in the oppositions half and stop the strikers being isolated.

Player And Team Instructions

We also have to take into account the player and team instructions I use too. I actually don’t use any player instructions except asking the goalkeeper to distribute the ball to the defenders. What this means is now we build from the back naturally or more to the point, the defenders start everything. This can also bring pros and cons too.

Pros

• We can retain possession deep and have the defenders build from the back.
• The defenders can step up into midfield with the ball if space is available.
• Initially the defenders will likely be unmarked.

Cons

• Mistakes could be more costly.
• If defenders hit it long, it could give possession away cheaply.
• If they get pressed heavily, it could cause panic at the back and rush decision-making.

As you can see, using this player instruction can also add a new level of complexity. Then we also have two team instructions to factor in.

Much Higher Defensive Line

Pros

• Pushes the defence higher up the pitch making them closer than usual to the midfield.

Cons

• Susceptible to balls over the down/through the middle.
• Strikers playing on the shoulder of the defenders can leave me vulnerable.
• Pace of the opposition players if they’re faster than my own, can also leave me vulnerable.

You can see yet another level of complexity added to the tactic and we’ve still got another team instruction to go.

Close Down Much More

Pros

• Harass the opposition unsettling them.
• Close down much sooner giving the opposition less time on the ball.
• More chance of forcing the opposition to make errors in their own half.

Cons

• Players can be too aggressive and leave space.
• We can lose our shape.
• Players caught out of position.

Can you see how all of the above changes player behaviour, the teams general behaviour and changes the base tactic you are using. It’s why when you see someone who is using lots of team instructions, you know they have no idea how it changes the behaviour of the players as it’s almost impossible to keep track of everything that changes. Most tactics that use lots of team instructions are just blagging it and hope they stumble across something that works.

It’s why I advise those who are struggling to keep it simple and only use team and player instructions to refine a playing style or to get a player to behave differently. Every single team or player instruction you add, complicates things and adds complexity. They all drastically change the player roles you use. The more you use, the more knowledge of the match engine you need in order to understand how they all work in conjunction with each other and to understand what you’ve really changed.

Player Roles and Duties

Understanding how everything comes together can only be done when you understand how the roles and duties you’ve selected, work together. By that I mean, I use two complete wing backs but what is their actual job, who do they link up with, what type of support do they offer and so on. Hopefully this can be fully explained in this section, so you’ll be able to have a look at your own tactics to see if the player is doing what you actually want them to be.

Goalkeeper

The goalkeepers job on this save is simple, just be a goalkeeper. I don’t need/want him to do anything else. However I am in the middle of writing a separate article about how we can use keepers better and all the different things they can offer. That will be out in a few weeks. But on this save, he just rolls the ball out to the defenders and saves shots. Or he distributes the ball to the wing-backs depending on how the defenders are being marked.

That’s just an example of the keeper distributing the ball to the wing-backs in the wide areas due to how compact and centrally the opposition are.

Central Defenders

One of the main responsibilities of the defenders is to collect the ball from the goalkeeper and work it forward. Just how they work it forward really depends on what kind of pressure they’re under at the time. However the main players they link up with are;

• The wing-backs
• The three midfielders

Those are the players the back three work with constant and provide them with the ball.

Here we see one of the centre backs collect the ball and then play it forward to the unmarked wingback.

This is one of the main ways we play out from the back and use the width. The goalkeeper either kicks it or rolls it out to one of the defenders (normally the outer ones) who  then pass it to the wing-backs. They also pass it to the midfielders but the wing-back option is one of the main source of passing they utilise the most, as it’s easier to pass to them because they’re usually unmarked.

So we’ve seen a few examples of them collecting the ball from the goalkeeper but they also provide the midfield with the ball too.

It’s nothing spectacular, the defender is just keeping it simple and passing the ball to the unmarked midfielder. This allows us to keep the ball moving and you can see from the image, how two Chelsea players charge the midfield down instantly. This in turns creates space as those two players have left their position.

Keeping it simple and allowing players to just do the basic stuff like pass the ball around to the players not marked and to keep the ball moving is all the defenders really do. I don’t need them to do more than this or try to overplay the ball, there is absolutely no need for it.

The Wing-Backs

I expect the wing-backs to provide width down the flanks as well as be supporting options for the defenders to distribute the ball to them. They should also offer support to the midfielders and more importantly, provide a supply of the ball to the two strikers. As I use a 3-5-2 it means any natural width comes from these players, if they fail to do this then it can become very narrow and crowded in the centre. So the responsibilities look a bit like this;

• Provide width.
• Offer support to the defence.
• Supply the ball to the strikers.
• Link with the midfield either distributing the ball to them or providing support.

Those are the main things they should be doing constantly throughout a game. Now we’ve already seen them linking up with the defenders and being a passing outlet for them. But let’s take a look at some examples of the other stuff they offer.

In this clip we have the left wing-back providing the width and in doing so, loses his marker. We then see him make a darting run forward but when he receives the ball, he checks his run and holds the ball up. One of the reasons for this is he doesn’t really have any forward options and he’s been heavily closed down. This doesn’t matter though as I only want him crossing the ball when we have options and he is able to drive towards the byline. He can’t in this example. So by checking his run, he is able to play the ball back to the deep-lying playmaker (Bentancur) and then carry on his run. Due to how he played the ball backwards, we are able to keep the ball moving and look at the space that was created, when the wing-back is closed down by three different players.

A little later in the move, I actually scored but the wing-back wasn’t involved with the latter staged of it. However due to what he did in the clip above, the move wasn’t wasted and he created the space by occupying three players and forcing them to cut across to deal with the danger he posed. This means that elsewhere on the pitch, those same players had ground to make up now to get back to their positions or to where the ball had gone.

When I speak about creating space and movement, it’s this kind of stuff I am talking about. It’s all about making the opposition make a decision and whatever that decision is, it being the incorrect one. It’s this that makes the whole pitch open up and free’s players up. Give the opposition many options to deal with at any given time and they’ll not be able to cover them all. The same goes for moves against you too, the more decisions you have to make or deal with it at once, the less calm and more panicked you’ll be.

Supplying the ball to the forwards isn’t only focused on crosses, they also pass the ball early if they see such an opportunity to do so, like in the above example. Once simple direct ball and instantly the opposition are on the back foot. Don’t get me wrong, wing play is a big part of their job but they also mix it up and do things like this regular too.

The Midfield Trio

Having variety is good and I believe I have this in this midfield set-up. I started out by kind of replicating Sheffield United’s real life formation. But it’s not a full replication just elements that I discussed in the other articles. I’m now five seasons into the save and I still play the same way as I did in the Championship, I didn’t change a single thing. One of the only things that have changed is the player quality as I’ve brought new players into the club.

The main job of the midfield is;

• Provide runners
• Support the strikers
• Keep the ball moving
• Supply the strikers with the ball

The midfield has to provide all of the above, if not it means more pressure on the wing-backs providing this, which is something I don’t want to do. I want variety and don’t want to be predictable in the way we attack when we have the ball. Variety stops us becoming one-dimensional, as being one-dimensional can be a bad thing especially if you have a bad day or a player doesn’t do what he should. That’s why I need to always make sure the midfield provides the above.

Here we see Arthur who is playing the deep-lying playmaker role drive forward with the ball because Watford are defensive deep with ten players behind the ball. As he drives forward the centre of the pitch becomes more congested and realistically there is no way to get through the in this area. So what we do is use the width of the wing-backs as play has become very narrow. By the wing-backs keeping width this allow us to use the pitch to open them up. The right sided wing-back cuts inside (he’s actually a left wing-back so is left footed playing on the right) and passes it to the centre midfielder who is on an attack duty (Nemeth), who actually finishes the move at the end.

So Nemeth gets the ball and immediately passes to the striker who then looks and playing in the left wig-back who kept his width throughout the move. This allows us to use the entire pitch and switch play for one side to the other in a matter of seconds. From the ball being on the right side of the pitch, we were over on the left side with-in six seconds by working the ball really well. This makes it hard for any side to defend against when you move from one side to the other in a very short space of time as it means the oppositions entire defensive unit needs to shift across and this creates chaos which in turns creates space and movement.

Once the ball reaches the left side of the pitch, look at how both the strikers and the central attacking midfielder attack the space and push forward. The central attacking midfielder is the late runner and that’s why he gets on the end of the cross. But also note how the central midfielder on a support duty and the deep-lying playmaker hold position on the edge of the box. This will allow them to pick up and loose balls or even be a deeper crossing options. You don’t want every player to get into the box or arrive at the same time. It’s best to stagger them if possible to create such variety.

Again though, it comes back to creating many options for the opposition to deal with at the same time.

In this clip we have Arthur (the DLP) pass the ball to the central midfielder support, who then does a lovely pass to the right wing-back. If you watch to the very end though you see one of my players who arrives late in the box, this is my central midfielder on an attacking duty. He is providing support and being the late runner into the box, which is always a good thing. If you look, he is unmarked and an acres of space if the wing-back can pick him out.

We’ve seem a little bit about what the midfield offers and how they link up with the rest of the side. I could add plenty more examples though but the article is already long, so it’s something I might revisit depending on how popular it is.

The Strikers

I’ve wrote about the strikers in this system already, I did two stand alone articles for them;

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/forged-steel-meet-david-brooks

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/forged-steel-deep-lying-forward

The David Brooks article takes a look at how I utilise him as the advanced forward and show clips and stats. While the deep-lying forward one is about Billy Sharp and what he offers the system and how he plays it. I feel that both these articles go into more depth and specifics, so don’t really need to add striker examples to this article. But if I do revisit the article at a later date, I’ll be sure to add newer examples.

There will be a follow up of some kind anyway because I want to illustrate good team moves and show how some of the goals have been scored. 

[callamity]

Brilliant

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, callamity said:

Brilliant

Thank you

[Brian]

When using this formation, do you have a second tactic with 2 defenders when facing a rival with only one striker? That why you can use a extra player elsewhere on the pitch. 

[Gegenklaus]

Fantastic thread Cleon. Especially the part about pros and cons with each instructions, roles, duties and shape. 

I want to ask you about the risk and reward philosophy. Your playing style have some natural weaknesses. If the opposition for example exploits the flanks and space behind the lines do you then stay true to the playing style, believing in it or do you draw a line at some point and adapt to the threat?

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Rooks said:

When using this formation, do you have a second tactic with 2 defenders when facing a rival with only one striker? That why you can use a extra player elsewhere on the pitch. 

I don’t need an extra body somewhere else, the tactic can already get bunched depending on the opposition at times. If I have an extra player forward that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing as it takes space and movement away from the players.

Also just because they might only use one striker, the chances are they use two wide forwards in most cases and I’d still need the outer centre backs to deals with the threat.

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Fantastic thread Cleon. Especially the part about pros and cons with each instructions, roles, duties and shape. 

I want to ask you about the risk and reward philosophy. Your playing style have some natural weaknesses. If the opposition for example exploits the flanks and space behind the lines do you then stay true to the playing style, believing in it or do you draw a line at some point and adapt to the threat?

Are the flanks a weakness? They can be, but my defenders track back and the central defenders covers the wide areas too. It’s only in certain scenarios that it will be an issue. If they exploit the flanks then my defenders, midfield etc should be more than enough to defend it as it means they are neglecting elsewhere.

I always stick with what I use if the attacking side of things is how I want. I’d only change if the risk side wasn’t paying off I.e the attacking phase of play didn’t work properly. But then I’d have fixed it already by this point so it’s a moot point really. I never stray from what I set out to achieve. If results wasn’t going my way I’d pinpoint why and then work from there.

[Gegenklaus]

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Are the flanks a weakness? They can be, but my defenders track back and the central defenders covers the wide areas too. It’s only in certain scenarios that it will be an issue. If they exploit the flanks then my defenders, midfield etc should be more than enough to defend it as it means they are neglecting elsewhere.

I always stick with what I use if the attacking side of things is how I want. I’d only change if the risk side wasn’t paying off I.e the attacking phase of play didn’t work properly. But then I’d have fixed it already by this point so it’s a moot point really. I never stray from what I set out to achieve. If results wasn’t going my way I’d pinpoint why and then work from there.

Okay, thanks for the answer. And this is here your philosophy by changing during a match is being done through subsituting players?

[argenmik]

once again this is a great post and adds a bit more detail to what i have seen you say this year.

i do see you questioning why people use lots of instructions and usually because they dont know what they are doing with them. I myself actually use quite a few instructions. retain possession. shorter passing, press more, higher line, wide width and use the wings. this seems to have worked for me and the team is playing at i want them to with high possession and attacking through my wingers. Would you say that if i were to remove some of my instructions that this could have very little impact. apols if I have misinterpreted some of your other work,

[Cleon]

23 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Okay, thanks for the answer. And this is here your philosophy by changing during a match is being done through subsituting players?

Yeah I play like I outlined in the A, B, C thread. I really don’t change much ever and I play in a very simplistic way

[argenmik]

once again this is a great post and adds a bit more detail to what i have seen you say this year.

i do see you questioning why people use lots of instructions and usually because they dont know what they are doing with them. I myself actually use quite a few instructions. retain possession. shorter passing, press more, higher line, wide width and use the wings. this seems to have worked for me and the team is playing at i want them to with high possession and attacking through my wingers. Would you say that if i were to remove some of my instructions that this could have very little impact. apols if I have misinterpreted some of your other work,

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, argenmik said:

once again this is a great post and adds a bit more detail to what i have seen you say this year.

i do see you questioning why people use lots of instructions and usually because they dont know what they are doing with them. I myself actually use quite a few instructions. retain possession. shorter passing, press more, higher line, wide width and use the wings. this seems to have worked for me and the team is playing at i want them to with high possession and attacking through my wingers. Would you say that if i were to remove some of my instructions that this could have very little impact. apols if I have misinterpreted some of your other work,

Well do you know exactly how using all those TI’s change the player roles and duties you use? 

[argenmik]

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Well do you know exactly how using all those TI’s change the player roles and duties you use? 

no is the honest answer. i would assume that having wide width would mean by players stretch the pitch and it seems that is the case when i watch the game and from the analysis and that my wingers would stay wider but in general i dont understand how every instruction impacts every role and duty. 

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

I don’t need an extra body somewhere else, the tactic can already get bunched depending on the opposition at times. If I have an extra player forward that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing as it takes space and movement away from the players.

Also just because they might only use one striker, the chances are they use two wide forwards in most cases and I’d still need the outer centre backs to deals with the threat.

So you would say that sticking with one formation/tactic and tweaking that - if necessary - to the opposition rather than having 2 or even 3 different tactics? 

[FatRonaldo]

Thanks for the post it's great reading.

I cannot manage to make the lone strikers work in FM17 for long term (4-3-2-1, 4-3-3m 4-5-1).

after a while my strikers missing sitters and i really don't know what to do to reduce this kind of misses (I tried to give other strikers a chance and they also missing sitters chances).

for 1, 2 or 3 matches to miss sitters i'm good with that, but when it becomes a consistent missing sitters chances and the opposition is sitting deep and manage to sneak a goal from no-where (which also tend to happen very very often) it start to get annoying and I'm starting to lose the game strategy and try some other strategy which fails as well and then i'm losing my desire to play this game because i'm suffering the same all the time.

 

I also don't understand in which occasion to use X mentality, roles.

for duty i understand when i should go with support and attack.

but i don't really know what to do when the opposition is bombing a specific flank or both flanks, cannot understand how to stop it.

[big daddy]

are teams not overruning you when you play away ?  I have been struggling playing a similar tactic away. I close more, not much more and wbs are on support.

[Cleon]

58 minutes ago, argenmik said:

no is the honest answer. i would assume that having wide width would mean by players stretch the pitch and it seems that is the case when i watch the game and from the analysis and that my wingers would stay wider but in general i dont understand how every instruction impacts every role and duty. 

That kind of answers what you was asking, you won't really know yourself either way if removing the TI's will make a difference or not because you don't really know what they alter to start with. They do make a difference but they aren't necessary and removing them might not make that much difference but it all depends on how you play overall.

29 minutes ago, Rooks said:

So you would say that sticking with one formation/tactic and tweaking that - if necessary - to the opposition rather than having 2 or even 3 different tactics? 

If you read my threads you'd know I only every have 1 tactic.

13 minutes ago, FatRonaldo said:

Thanks for the post it's great reading.

I cannot manage to make the lone strikers work in FM17 for long term (4-3-2-1, 4-3-3m 4-5-1).

after a while my strikers missing sitters and i really don't know what to do to reduce this kind of misses (I tried to give other strikers a chance and they also missing sitters chances).

for 1, 2 or 3 matches to miss sitters i'm good with that, but when it becomes a consistent missing sitters chances and the opposition is sitting deep and manage to sneak a goal from no-where (which also tend to happen very very often) it start to get annoying and I'm starting to lose the game strategy and try some other strategy which fails as well and then i'm losing my desire to play this game because i'm suffering the same all the time.

 

I also don't understand in which occasion to use X mentality, roles.

for duty i understand when i should go with support and attack.

but i don't really know what to do when the opposition is bombing a specific flank or both flanks, cannot understand how to stop it.

Normally missing/rushing chances is because of a lack of support. Does the player have actual options? Or is he shooting from all silly kid of angles and there not really sitters as such?

5 minutes ago, big daddy said:

are teams not overruning you when you play away ?  I have been struggling playing a similar tactic away. I close more, not much more and wbs are on support.

Why would I get overrun? I've shown how we attack and I spoke about not minding giving up space/shots as long as my own team does what I expect of them. But no I don't get overrun and neither did I when I first got promotion. Sure, in the odd game against the bigger sides it was a struggle but I still had League One quality players in the side and still managed to finish 2nd. 

[Brian]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

If you read my threads you'd know I only every have 1 tactic.

Then I'm not reading them properly. 

[Bigpapa42]

Bravo. Another great article. Really like the breakdown of each the positives and negatives of each TI. Gonna be re-reading this one a few times

[Cleon]

20 minutes ago, Rooks said:

Then I'm not reading them properly. 

Clearly. I must have mentioned it or shown how I play 50 times in the past year and never once have I shown me using/switching tactics 

The last article I did also highlighted how I play if you want a further look

 

[Brian]

30 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Clearly. I must have mentioned it or shown how I play 50 times in the past year and never once have I shown me using/switching tactics 

The last article I did also highlighted how I play if you want a further look

 

Thanks. 

This makes it more clear to me what I'm doing wrong. Going to check out your other articles too, perfect time for a winter chance as I'm on the exit chair and its very hot. 

[FatRonaldo]

8 hours ago, Cleon said:

Normally missing/rushing chances is because of a lack of support. Does the player have actual options? Or is he shooting from all silly kid of angles and there not really sitters as such?

Thank you very much for your time.

The sitters chances my striker missing are from a very convenient and comfortable positions, i'm also talking about one on one situations where my striker doesn't shoot to the corner and instead shooting to the middle - directly to the GK (i might assume it's something more related to animation even though I'm playing on 2D?) in another case, it's just the GK having a great day (which tend to happen more often against me when we are in a "bad run"), or the strikers just missing the target completly.

I try to play a counter attacking football, sitting deep and soak the opposition.

my mentality is defensive/counter - shape - structured, no PI's no TI's (when i see my opposition controling our half too much i'm adding push higher up and with that i add use offside trap to compress the space).

It might be possible that with this shape and mentality my striker will get isolated eventually (especially after teams will play deeper against me), so if this is the case, increasing the shape to flexible or fluid might can help to solve those cases? or it's more than that? there is any connection between strikers misses to shape?

 

If you won't mind, I have another question:

I kinda struggle to pick which mentality i should pick before match.

i.e. I'm playing at home vs man united, should i play control? or is it better to play less riskier?

I also tend to see people use the control mentality all the time, why it's so popular mentality in game if it's known as an attacking/risky mentality?

My apology for my English.

[phnompenhandy]

Cleon, I take your point about people adding so many TIs that they have no idea how the team is supposed to perform cohesively. So what I'd like to do is share my tactic together with an explanation of my TIs (I have no PIs) in order to demonstrate a thought-out system. Whether it's a good system or not is what I'd welcome feedback on.

I'm starting in Tier 10 with a squad that is spectacularly bad - of course, that means my opponents are just as bad too! I have one outstanding player, a striker but he can only play one game a week and doesn't feature in this line-up. Generally, because the individuals are so weak, I have to think in terms of a cohesive unit to ensure the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

http://

 

So my system is a 4-2-3-1 very very deep, with NO attacking duties! The purpose is to ensure that as many bodies as possible are behind the ball. Safety in numbers - when one man is beat another is covering. I don't care about possession as nobody can pass the ball, so short passes would be risky. On a counter-attacking mentality the idea is to look for an opportunity to hoof the ball up to the frontman or wingers. It's a matter of percentages - whereas the long balls are not going to be accurate, as the oppo defenders are slow and have poor positioning, there's a good chance my striker will get on the end of a few aimless punts.

So to the team instructions. My quickest defenders have accel/pace of 7 - woeful. Virtually every oppo striker is quicker, so I have to stay deep. This also means I'm never caught out by long balls over the top, whilst many of my goals come from that route.

My strikers are both wee short-arses so high crosses would be wasted. As I mentioned, nobody can pass (apart from the SV and CM) so direct passing complements the counter-attacking mentality. There is little creativity amongst these lower-league ranks; having said that, they aren't complete idiots and I have no concerns about using a fluid shape which I think is better than structured for operating as a unit. Again, it seems to me that the risks of fluid shape are reduced with the weight of numbers behind the ball. 

Now my defensive/support duties with a defensive mentality seem overly negative, so this is where the other TIs come in. I'll get 10 men behind the ball and let the oppo come into my half. I don't wait for them to find a way through my massed ranks; I go at them. We harry them, bite their legs, force them into giving the ball away at which point we can counter super-fast given the tempo. If the pressing causes a player or two to lose shape, as I say there is still cover due to sheer numbers.

 

The level I'm playing at couldn't be further from Cleon's United lining up against Chelsea, but I hope I'm not out of place in understanding this thread is about making thought-out logical choices re. tactics. As I say, any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, FatRonaldo said:

Thank you very much for your time.

The sitters chances my striker missing are from a very convenient and comfortable positions, i'm also talking about one on one situations where my striker doesn't shoot to the corner and instead shooting to the middle - directly to the GK (i might assume it's something more related to animation even though I'm playing on 2D?) in another case, it's just the GK having a great day (which tend to happen more often against me when we are in a "bad run"), or the strikers just missing the target completly.

I try to play a counter attacking football, sitting deep and soak the opposition.

my mentality is defensive/counter - shape - structured, no PI's no TI's (when i see my opposition controling our half too much i'm adding push higher up and with that i add use offside trap to compress the space).

It might be possible that with this shape and mentality my striker will get isolated eventually (especially after teams will play deeper against me), so if this is the case, increasing the shape to flexible or fluid might can help to solve those cases? or it's more than that? there is any connection between strikers misses to shape?

 

If you won't mind, I have another question:

I kinda struggle to pick which mentality i should pick before match.

i.e. I'm playing at home vs man united, should i play control? or is it better to play less riskier?

I also tend to see people use the control mentality all the time, why it's so popular mentality in game if it's known as an attacking/risky mentality?

My apology for my English.

There is no best mentality it all depends what you are wanting. I wrote about a specific tactic recently and how the mentality changed things, I only spoke about attacking/standard mentalities but the principles are the same. Might be worth reading so you can get your head around what actually changes;

https://teaandbusquets.com/4-2-3-1-standard-vs-attacking-mentality

[TheMagician16]

Hey, thanks for the guide, it is good read. Cleon does direct passing mean meaningless passes as in long balls like in premier league or more risk in regards to through balls? I want possession football where I dominate teams in possession whilst everyone stays in positions so all players know where their teammates is, then relying on my midfielders to provide killer balls to create chances. Kind of like David Silva and Kevin De bruyne. Basically keep ball and open up the defence with through balls. Would I choose more direct passing? Does more direct passing mean more risky passes and long balls that can be considered as killer balls, or is more direct better suited for long balls to fast players and target men? I don't want to limit my players to useless short passes if they see an opening or a pass that can create a CCC.

[Cleon]

51 minutes ago, TheMagician16 said:

Hey, thanks for the guide, it is good read. Cleon does direct passing mean meaningless passes as in long balls like in premier league or more risk in regards to through balls? I want possession football where I dominate teams in possession whilst everyone stays in positions so all players know where their teammates is, then relying on my midfielders to provide killer balls to create chances. Kind of like David Silva and Kevin De bruyne. Basically keep ball and open up the defence with through balls. Would I choose more direct passing? Does more direct passing mean more risky passes and long balls that can be considered as killer balls, or is more direct better suited for long balls to fast players and target men? I don't want to limit my players to useless short passes if they see an opening or a pass that can create a CCC.

Long passing, direct passing and throughballs are all different. The first two, long/direct passing are passing lengths. Throughballs can be any length, they're just balls hit into space for players to run on to.

Any types of passing length can provide killer balls, how often and frequent depends on if you allow the players to make throughballs more than focusing on the passing length. Also if you want throughballs and lots of them then the most important component is creating space and having people run. If there is no space you'll just give the ball away 90% of the time.

[TheMagician16]

I see, thanks! I suppose I could do with a space investigator role if I aim to make killer passes from central areas to wide areas which in turn is cut in and score or put crosses in whilst the players making killer balls run inside the box and trying to overload the box.

[crusadertsar]

But Cleon what OI and training do you use?!

[Cleon]

19 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

But Cleon what OI and training do you use?!

OI's none. And training doesn't matter it has no direct influence on how you play. But mt training methods have been explained elsewhere already. 

[crusadertsar]

22 minutes ago, Cleon said:

OI's none. And training doesn't matter it has no direct influence on how you play. But mt training methods have been explained elsewhere already. 

You don't use OI? Wow. How do you manage to win so consistently then

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

You don't use OI? Wow. How do you manage to win so consistently then

Not many people who create their own tactics use OI's, they change how the players behave. If you set players up properly to begin with, then there's no real need to use them.

If you think OI's make it easier to win then you have a lot of reading to do my friend

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

If you think OI's make it easier to win then you have a lot of reading to do my friend

Really? ! That's so interesting. Many "killer" tactics ive read about tend to stress OIs. The most successful plug and play tactics on steam, fmscout and fmbase almost exclusively use OIs. And they tend to be tactics where you win consistently. That can't just be coincidence? While this might not be a good experiment, my friend was able to win Premier league 4 years in a row as Newcastle with one of these Chinese tactics whereas without OIs he struggled before and he never even played football manager before 2018 version lol

[Cleon]

15 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Really? ! That's so interesting. Many "killer" tactics ive read about tend to stress OIs. The most successful plug and play tactics on steam, fmscout and fmbase almost exclusively use OIs. And they tend to be tactics where you win consistently. That can't just be coincidence? While this might not be a good experiment, my friend was able to win Premier league 4 years in a row as Newcastle with one of these Chinese tactics whereas without OIs he struggled before and he never even played football manager before 2018 version lol

Those tactics all exploit the match engine, I don't. The OI's have nothing to do with winning/losing. 

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Those tactics all exploit the match engine, I don't. The OI's have nothing to do with winning/losing. 

Exploit the match engine?? Isn't the point of tactic is to win like in real football? It's weird because I tried your 4-2-3-1 tactic from the blog with my wolves side and actually got sacked after losing something like 10 games. Man, sometimes I don't get this game. How can we differentiate between good tactic even using the exact same roles and instructions 

[phnompenhandy]

17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Really? ! That's so interesting. Many "killer" tactics ive read about tend to stress OIs. The most successful plug and play tactics on steam, fmscout and fmbase almost exclusively use OIs. And they tend to be tactics where you win consistently. That can't just be coincidence? While this might not be a good experiment, my friend was able to win Premier league 4 years in a row as Newcastle with one of these Chinese tactics whereas without OIs he struggled before and he never even played football manager before 2018 version lol

I actually don't understand this. How can the same OIs be applied across the board to all opposition, whatever the formation or the players?   The only one I occasionally use is the show onto weaker foot; I already set hard tackling and closing down as TIs and the other 1 would be disastrous for my slow and ponderous defenders.

[phnompenhandy]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Exploit the match engine?? Isn't the point of tactic is to win like in real football?

To win by playing football, not to win by outsmarting algorithms.

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

To win by playing football, not to win by outsmarting algorithms.

What algorithms?

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Exploit the match engine?? Isn't the point of tactic is to win like in real football? It's weird because I tried your 4-2-3-1 tactic from the blog with my wolves side and actually got sacked after losing something like 10 games. Man, sometimes I don't get this game

Because those tactics take advantage of bugs and faults that exist. It's not the same thing at all.

Also I didn't put a tactic up for people to try, the reason it didn't work for you is you didn't read or use the thread/articles for how it was intended. The idea was to show how the 4-2-3-1 functions and show why people struggle to use it, I made this very clear throughout the the article. The tactic was designed for my team and players. 

[crusadertsar]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Because those tactics take advantage of bugs and faults that exist. It's not the same thing at all.

Also I didn't put a tactic up for people to try, the reason it didn't work for you is you didn't read or use the thread/articles for how it was intended. The idea was to show how the 4-2-3-1 functions and show why people struggle to use it, I made this very clear throughout the the article. The tactic was designed for my team and players. 

OK. Why wouldn't it work if I got players who could fill the same roles as in your tactic? Isn't definition of a good tactic is that it's a system that can be applied by others if they fill the requirements?

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

OK. Why wouldn't it work if I got players who could fill the same roles as in your tactic? Isn't definition of a good tactic is that it's a system that can be applied by others if they fill the requirements?

No the definition of a good tactic is what works for the user who created it and for the team/players he managed.

If it didn't work for you, then you clearly didn't have the players for it or you didn't understand what you was using. Either way the issues comes back to you and how you translate stuff. If you want everything done for you and spoon feeding then go back to the amazing tactics you've been using before. 

Anyway you're derailing the thread, there's already a thread for this subject. 

[crusadertsar]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

No the definition of a good tactic is what works for the user who created it and for the team/players he managed.

If it didn't work for you, then you clearly didn't have the players for it or you didn't understand what you was using. Either way the issues comes back to you and how you translate stuff. If you want everything done for you and spoon feeding then go back to the amazing tactics you've been using before. 

Anyway you're derailing the thread, there's already a thread for this subject. 

But what about plug and play? 

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

But what about plug and play? 

I don't give a **** about plug and play, this isn't the thread for wanting easy mode with no thought process. 

[herne79]

@crusadertsar You're borderline trolling here.  This is the Tactics Discussion forum, not the Tactics Download forum.  The whole point of this thread and indeed anything that @Cleon writes about is principles of play to help you design your own tactics.  If all you do is copy them without understanding what's going on you'll fail every single time.

If you want to discuss the principles, feel free.  If you want plug and play there are different forums for that.

[Yoeri]

Interesting post. It always helps me to work harder to my own tactic. 

I like the three at the back. It gives you a lot of space at the flanks where the opposition can't deal with. In FM17 I played a very similair formation. The wingsbacks are also creating as scoring. Bellerín was on fire. I hope he ever will be in real life. 

Anyway. Thanks for this thread.  

[FatRonaldo]

On 1/3/2018 at 10:29, Cleon said:

There is no best mentality it all depends what you are wanting. I wrote about a specific tactic recently and how the mentality changed things, I only spoke about attacking/standard mentalities but the principles are the same. Might be worth reading so you can get your head around what actually changes;

https://teaandbusquets.com/4-2-3-1-standard-vs-attacking-mentality

I just finished reading this. Enjoyed reading it, thank you very much for this.

But I have few questions which I still struggle to understand (incase  you cover it in this article and i might didn't understand it correctly, please forgive me I try my best to understand with my English).

does standart mentality can be categorized also as lower mentality in game? (I know standart means what it means, but realating to football manager wise).

I found when playing with defensive mentality or counter mentality especially against bigger teams, i'm getting stomped in my own half (i understand there are quality differences even thought i made some good signing, but it feels like my players are useless and we cannot move further from our own half with lower mentalities), I'm asking you this becaue i don't want to feel obligated in game, which obviously have lot of differential ways to play.

only when i switch to control mentality, it feels like my players are more willing to attack (which i understand why, with higher mentality we are pushing much higher and closing down more etc...), and even we have highlight where we are attacking and threating the opposition goal (as your mentioned in onw of your previous threads, those might not be quality chances, which sometimes it's really true).

what i find hard for me is after a while of playing the game (like something around november or half season), I start to end up losing without scoring (we have chances, and i'm talking abotu really quality ones, I'm not gonna say every quality chance should end up as a goal, but i'm more refering to 1vs1 situations that i cannot really remember if we had scored one), and this is where i'm struggeling to realise what's going on (even on lower mentality), and how I manage to avoid that.

as i mentioned before, I play 4-3-3

                                   DLF (attack)

ramdauter (attack)                                            winger (support)

 

 CML - AP (attack) (sometimes i changed it to CM (support) this player also have the get forward whenever possible PPM)       CMR - Ball winning MF (support)               

                                                         DM (Defend)

WB mostly on (defend)      CD(defend)       CD(defend)                wingback on attack

                                                           GK (d)

sometimes i change my left WB from defend to support when i see that we are struggeling creating chances from the right

 tend to play defensice/couter- structured shape (no ti's, pi's or OI's) this is my default tactic (sometimes i add ti's such as push higher up, and prevent GK destribution and offside trap.

when i see the opposition is trying to exploit my right side, I switch/reverse roles and duties to protect the right (with more support duties to the right and BW midfielder to the right aswell to protect this side etc..)

 

am i on the right direction in the way i analyze it?

on this articel you didn't mentioned which shape you were using (or maybe you mentioned it and i missed it?, I understand that it's either structured or flexible?) it's really importat from my current understanding with the game, since fluid shape and attacking mentality with one striker up front could become a disaster ?!

 

another question: 

there are matches which my defenders hold the ball and there is no movement from my players so he hoofing the ball forward... not sure what to do in this case (play out of defense might reduce his options same as use short passing in P'I)

[crusadertsar]

I wanted to apologize to everyone, especially @Cleon  and @herne79 for derailing the thread and trolling intentionally. I'm not actually a fan of plug and play but I was very frustrated and sad with my own tactic because I lost my second Europa Cup final in a row to a parked bus despite desperately trying to change the tactic to create more space. Sometimes I feel like no matter what I do in the game, it's just a random outcome. I was wrong to take out my frustration on the forum. For that I'm deeply sorry, guys. I guess it's back to drawing board for me in season 3.

[PonjaConRulos]

I like your attacking approach. As you explain very well, 3-5-2 has a weakness in the flanks, and your closing down much more can leave space, lose shape, and get players out of position. How do you deal with that in the transition attack-defence if your pressure line is broken?

[MartinGregory84]

Another great post from Cleon,

 

if it wasnt for reading your previous threads and articles I would not have a team with 3 promotions on my hands, they seemed to have improved my knowledge to be honest.

[Cleon]

20 hours ago, PonjaConRulos said:

I like your attacking approach. As you explain very well, 3-5-2 has a weakness in the flanks, and your closing down much more can leave space, lose shape, and get players out of position. How do you deal with that in the transition attack-defence if your pressure line is broken?

I don't worry about it. Like I point out, I just focus on what my players are doing and what they do well, The system is set up to have cover should players be caught out of position. All the aggressive players have someone more reserved next to them, it comes back to creating the right balance. Players leaving space and getting caught out of position happens in all tactics, even ones that don't close down heavily. It's natural for it to happen.

[TheMagician16]

I am trying to fine tune my tactic but I am quite at a loss after doing the best I can, and was wondering if anyone can give me some additional help from here on out. My strategy is dominating games and playing attacking football, and want to play a style which relies heavily on passes, mainly though balls. Long or short through balls, I want that to be up to the player to decide since I have lots of creative and good passer in midfield. Ideally, I want players to pass the ball around outside the opponents box patiently and playing through balls out wide or in the half spaces on a runner, then getting crosses in to my strikers and late runners into the box, either a tall guy or short guy. Problems I am having is players doing stupid shots out on the sides or outside the box. As a rage quit reaction, I decided to take every single player in my squad and give the PPM "Look for passing rather than shooting" and I think it helped somewhat, but I do get a lot of shots anyway. I suppose Pep Guardiola's style is somewhat similar. I checked out the Pep's man city thread but I am a bit unsure as that it replicating instead of creating my own tactic with similar philosophy to Pep.

 I play as Man City (the team I support in RL) and having won most cups and the league a couple of times, but I still can't seem to create the tactic that I want. 

 

My tactic: https://imgur.com/a/7lXGO

I have experimented a lot with the midfield and attack, but I am a bit unsure. Recently I've tried a Mezzalla, but usually I would use DLP-S or CM-S/A. All my midfielders have more risky passes, BBM has run into channels. The halfback DM seems to be a decent way for me to help with the defense, as I don't seem to concede a lot of goals and keep a lot of clean sheets.