desmond91 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Since new patch out, strikers don't come back in defensive phase...have you the same problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Since new patch out, strikers don't come back in defensive phase...have you the same problem? What's their role and duty, your philosophy and mentality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 And how far "back" is "back"? I use a CF (Support) in a Structured Control system and he defends as deep as I would want him to. If they defend too deep, then where is the outlet if possession changes to the team that was defending? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmond91 Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 i have found the problem... this is a fix with new patch 15.3 "- Improved defensive positioning of support duty strikers and attack duty AMCs" I use support strikers, and now they not come back, i have tried with False 9, and other support roles... i have tried to change in counterattacking or control...but nothing, strikers don't come back now this is not a fix in my opinion... It's unplayble now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Possibly a wee bit dramatic to call it unplayable?! You still haven't defined what you expect your striker to do when defending? What Role does he have, what is the Mentality and Team Shape used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo98 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Yup, unless you have some actual examples, its a nonsense post/complaint i am afraid. No one else seems to be reporting this issue, but if you really do have it, post up PKM's or screenshots showing where players are not where you would expect them to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmond91 Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 I want that strikers help team in defesive phase, instead now the stay too high on the pitch and they are disinterested For me it's unplayble because my tactic idea is a team that defend in in 11 or 10 not in 9 players...like atletico madrid i use control - flexibility Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 yeah same im playing with defensive mentality one as a AF attack and one DLF on support. both just stnd up there and do nothing. once the ball gets to the oppisiotn mids its up to my mids to closw down but ****. mine is defensive with structured, 4 4-2 flat, team instructions stick to positioons push higher up, less expressive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo98 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Again, youve been asked a few times now for some examples. If you cant provide that, then no one can agree with you properly...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
herne79 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The problem is your tactic and how you use it. Until you tell us this, no-one can help you and the thread may well end up locked. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327822-Asking-For-Help-PLEASE-READ-THIS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom14 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I agree with the OP. I play a 4-4-2 with a AM R IF (A). I play a DLF R (S) and an AF L (A). When one of my CM's has the ball the DLF does not drop to link the play, which is the whole point of the role. It's particularly frustrating when I'm playing against a flat 4-4-2 as there is lots of space between their midfield and defence for my DLF to drop into but he just doesn't. The problem is now he just plays up against his marker and doesn't drag him anywhere so doesn't create space for the other attackers. It worked well pre-patch and as far as I can see the way I've imagined it should play out is logical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussex Hammer Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I think to be fair to the fella I can see where he is coming from although I suspect in some ways the duties were slightly mixed up in the last patch. An example is my DF S. In the last patch he actually came quite deep and hassled the defensive midfielder and yet also he was my top scorer. However a DF S in the description is to put pressure on the centre backs which would place him higher. A DF D has the description of hassling the DM strata which in effect was what my DF S was actually doing. In the latest patch the DF S is now hassling the centre backs which is actually what it says on the tin. I experimented with a DF D and he was far deeper and didn't really contribute going forward as much so in the previous patch your DF S actually did more defensive work deeper than he does in the latest patch. The DF D probably dropped too deep. So it probably works as it should now, (although funnily enough I preferred the way a DF S worked in the last patch) but in fairness to the OP a forward on a support duty probably did drop deeper defending wise in the last patch so if he is talking about a DF S it is understandable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Well in a 4-4-2 you cant really play with two DF would be nothing going forward surely Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmond91 Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 glad not to be the only... Someone that speak english better than me can report the problem? It's unplayble football manager right now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Hook Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 glad not to be the only...Someone that speak english better than me can report the problem? It's unplayble football manager right now You need to use different roles. Defensive Forward on Support and Defend will drop deeper and defend. Their description says that is what they do. Why don't you use them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You need to use different roles. Defensive Forward on Support and Defend will drop deeper and defend. Their description says that is what they do. Why don't you use them? why should u? a deep lying forward on support should do basically that anyway. why sacrifice more players in defensive roles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
isignedupfornorealreason Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 why should u? a deep lying forward on support should do basically that anyway. why sacrifice more players in defensive roles. We need to get rid of roles. Or have fifty thousand different roles. Sometimes there is a player who I want to play in a specific role that does not exist and cannot be created in-game. I call it the Fellaini problem. >_> Guy's a literal Target Man operating in the AMC/CM slot. Then again, I may just be thick and have no idea how to implement it into FM. >_> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Hook Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 why should u? a deep lying forward on support should do basically that anyway. why sacrifice more players in defensive roles. Well, it stands to reason that if the roles are not performing as you want, you should change them. It isn't that complicated. We have to deal with the Match Engine as it is, not as we wish it to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 yeah i know but using a DF then results in not enough sup[port and attack for my strikers. i just dont get why two strikers just stand up forward doing nothing in defense. in real likfe it just doesnt happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 It's weird how people are saying the DF doesn't contribute enough. In my system he has around 13 assists and 8 goals in 14 games. Maybe the systems you are all using don't allow for him to be involved and he has a lack of supply? My DF also drops back and defends where he should be, unless you all have unrealistic expectations and expect to see him around your own box? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 It's weird how people are saying the DF doesn't contribute enough. In my system he has around 13 assists and 8 goals in 14 games. Maybe the systems you are all using don't allow for him to be involved and he has a lack of supply? My DF also drops back and defends where he should be, unless you all have unrealistic expectations and expect to see him around your own box? how many attackers do you have though? as my df does nothing but stand there in attack and lay basic passes. maybe u have more advanced wingers or more attack setting players cause with a flat 4-4-2 he just doesnt do enough even set on defend does not get back enough and defend for it to be possible to attack and contribute going forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The not-in-possession positioning of strikers on support duty and attacking mid's on attack duty was a fair bit off before the patch. Now it has been addressed, and in my opinion it now both looks and plays much better. Can it be that you have gotten used to how it was in 15.2 - which was wrong - and therefore perceive 15.3 to be wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Define "defend" LeedsUnitedForLife. A striker is a striker, first and foremost. Have to agree with Cleon and say it seems like people have unrealistic expectations here...... thomit has probably nailed the reason why people are struggling to get their heads round this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 yes he is but i would still like one of my two forwards to drop a bit deeper and defend espcially when i have on set uo deep lying forward on support. surely two forwards should not just stand up front and let doing nothing when the other teams CM gets the ball near half way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 how many attackers do you have though? as my df does nothing but stand there in attack and lay basic passes. maybe u have more advanced wingers or more attack setting playerscause with a flat 4-4-2 he just doesnt do enough even set on defend does not get back enough and defend for it to be possible to attack and contribute going forward. It's nothing to do with that, in a 442, 343, narrow 41212 it works the same. I think thomit has nailed it above. It's interesting though as people are saying it's not right yet no-one is showing or explaining what they define as 'defending' or 'contributing'. Also I suspect some of you will use defensive roles without fully understanding them and use them in system they aren't actually suited for based on some of the other posts I've seen by users in this thread recently. If you use a role like the defensive forward then you need to utilise it with how you set up the roles around him or its pointless. It also takes a certain type of player to fulfil the role. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Your two DLF's both on support duty is a very unusual set-up. What happens if you give one of them a DF/defend role? It may be that the m.e has not taken into account tactics that have both strikers defending deep ... as I said, it's very unusual, and something I have never seen in real life football. If that's what you really want, perhaps you should go strikerless, with your "strikers" in the AM spot. At least that is something that you do see in rl. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussex Hammer Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think Thomit has it right. As I say my DF S probably played like a DF D in the previous patch whereas now probably plays like a DF S. You could try training your forward in a "comes deep to get ball" PPM. That might help. I notice that two of my strikers play the DF S role differently but one has "moves into channels" and the other has "plays with back to goal" as PPM so they do things differently. A comes deep to get ball might help your forward come deeper or even get him to man mark the opposition DM is an option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The "comes deep" ppm is really only effective when your team is in possession. As such it doesn't really help with defending, as that is something you do when your team is not in possession. Of course, in some circumstances a player with a "comes deep" ppm could have brought him deep when his team is in possession, and he would perhaps therefore be in a better position to defend if the possession suddenly changes ... but in itself it doesn't really help with getting players to defend any deeper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 no i had one advanced forward one deep lying both do nothing to defend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR11 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Define "defend" LeedsUnitedForLife. A striker is a striker, first and foremost. Have to agree with Cleon and say it seems like people have unrealistic expectations here......thomit has probably nailed the reason why people are struggling to get their heads round this. This. Strikers on 15.3 don't come even this deep, not to think even deeper, and they DID come back on 15.2.1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Well my DLF(s) does. Depends what you mean by defending. Do you expect them to come into line with the other midfielders, so that - if you are playing a let's say 442 - in defense it would be a 4-6-0? Then no, strikers don't behave like that, and nor should they. If that's what you're after, you need to play a 4-6-0 (or similar) formation. If you play a 442 and have 1 DLF(s), the other striker on attack duty, in defense (ie your team is not in possession of the ball) the formation would go 4411. If you have both strikers on support (or defend), it would again be a 442 when defending, only the strikers sit slightly deeper than normal. Edit: MR11's pic; my strikers regularly does this - pressing the opposition central defenders or midfielders. That is really the extent of defending a striker is supposed to do. It happens all the time in my game, so why it does not happen in yours, I do not know - but we can then assume it is your tactics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 This. Strikers on 15.3 don't come even this deep, not to think even deeper, and they DID come back on 15.2.1. My strikers defend that deep, when I'm home I will show you. Unless you are expecting what thomit mentions above then you're being unrealistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 as the picture is what i want i dont beleive they should stand above thehalf way line and not d anything to defend Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 mine actually get bi passed and just stand there and then the cm has to put pressure on the cm/dm for the other team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Perhaps your strikers have low work rate and/or teamwork? There's plenty of strikers about that do not care about anything else than scoring, and are unsuitable as DLF's or DF's. Perhaps your D-line is too high? If you want strikers to defend (press) deep into your own half, your D-line needs to be quite low. Generally speaking. From what I understand you are trying to acheive, you want a low pressing team, where defending starts well into your own half. Well then your tactics should reflect that, and your D-line should be very low. Maybe they need to have further closing down instructions. But really, if your striker is lazy by nature, there's not a lot you can do - other to give up on him being a DLF, or to swap him for someone better suited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 oh i havent looked at that but i mean why does it have to be so hard to bloody defend Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR11 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Defensive, tried Flexible and Very fluid, TIs: Pass into space, Work ball into box, Clear ball to flanks, Exploit the flanks, Higher tempo, More disciplined. Red circle is DF (defend), blue circle F9 (support). No, they don't defend. At least not as a unit, and not as they defended on 15.2.1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 yes spot on mate i agree exactly what i have a big gap now every game its a joke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffiN94 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't see anything wrong with that image tbh , I wouldn't expect strikers to be much deeper than that. Also doesn't the defensive forward on defend pressure the defenders rather than the support who pressures the DM's / CM's? I'm not at home to check so can't be 100% certain. Another thing im not 100% certain about is the 'be more disciplined' surely they will just remain in that position and wouldn't help? still not 100% not the best at this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 pretty sure defend does the Dm and support the CB? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 but surely one of those forwads as a deep lying foreward should be back a bit more picking up one of those DM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffiN94 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 but surely one of those forwads as a deep lying foreward should be back a bit more picking up one of those DM well that screenshot doesn't really show DM's , just CM's who are on the edge of the box and you can't expect a striker to defend at the edge of the box can you? If you truely want your strikers to stick with the CM's I can only think the best way to do it is to set them to man mark them. Still I would take everything I say lightly I'm not the best with the whole tactical side of things. pretty sure defend does the Dm and support the CB? Okay thanks , I can't check as I'm not home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Where would you want your striker to be, MR11 - edge of the box somewhere? What you need is a central midfielder or a AM on support duty, in a 1 striker formation. Not a striker. Strikers are not supposed to do that, not even DF's. That's not what is meant by "defensive" in their role name. And if you want both of them to go that deep, well then you want a strikerless formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR11 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Not true, again. This is what I want. And, yes, they ARE strikers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsUnitedForLife Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 spot on im preyyu sure torress and griezman are not defensive forwards. this is why the match engine gets so many complaints. and why i cant keep a clean sheet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You can do that in FM. But you need to have your strikers set up as AM's. I didn't see that particular game, but it seems obvious to me that Atletico (it is them, is it not?) were doing a strikerless formation in that game ... or at least they were at that particular point in the match. In rl that sort of thing happens much more "organic" than FM is able to replicate. I'll give you this though - if this was as a result of prolonged pressure from Barcelona, so that the strikers deemed it necessary to track back to help defend - yes, that is something that you do see in rl that FM is not very good at replicating. Although it does happen in FM too. If on the other hand this was what things looked like throughout the match, then it's clear that Atletico played a system where their strikers were specifically told to go "outside of the box", and told to defend that deep. You do that sort of thing in FM by playing the "strikers" in the AM strata, and giving them roles and duties that you seem fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Not true, again. This is what I want. And, yes, they ARE strikers. Let's be honest - that's defending taken to the extreme. That was specifically done against Barcelona. I can't imagine this being done under "normal" circumstances. Since in FM the formation you set is how they'll line up defensively, that means you need to break from the norm too, to achieve that. I wonder if AMs would drop that deep? I'd take it a step further and play a 4-4-2-0-0 to achieve the shape in that screenshot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MijnEigenFan Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 How do you know what roles they have? And if you want this you should play the most defensive mentality because that's what this looks like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR11 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 It's always tactics, and never the game itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 oh i havent looked at that but i mean why does it have to be so hard to bloody defend Defending is easy, as it attacking. Striking the correct balance between both is a different matter though and not the same thing as defending is hard/attacking is hard etc. Defensive, tried Flexible and Very fluid, TIs: Pass into space, Work ball into box, Clear ball to flanks, Exploit the flanks, Higher tempo, More disciplined. Red circle is DF (defend), blue circle F9 (support). No, they don't defend. At least not as a unit, and not as they defended on 15.2.1. This move started with a set piece though and not open play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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