The 'How do I say that guy's name?' thread

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Even my name (Jeroen / Jerome) can be said as Djeroen (Djerome) -> Д or like Zheroen (Zherome) -> Ж

[Razzler]

People abroad often mispronounce Rio de Janeiro, but should be pronounced like this (check the top pronunciations there):

http://pt.forvo.com/word/rio_de_janeiro/#pt

Our 'R' is somewhat like the 'H' in 'Hotel', etc.. in English in the start of a word. When it's in the middle of the word, it can be in many different ways depending on the region.

Interestingly, 'hotel' here is pronounced as if the 'h' didn't exist there: O-tell

bit like Hackney

[JD nawrat]

Bump.

"Lucas Deen" - isn't it "Lucas Deen-ya/yeh/yuh"? By saying "Digne" as "Deen" they're practically ignoring the inclusion of the letter G, which isn't ignored in French as they seem to think.

Or maybe I'm wrong...

[cms186]

i eas under the impression it was pronounced "Deen-yay" or something like that

[JD nawrat]

The "gn" sound is like a "nyuh" sound - think of "Mignolet" - "Meen-yo-lay".

Which would naturally make it "Dee-nyuh" I think. But I can't say for sure... a Frenchmen (or natural French speaker) would be most appreciated right now

[adhikapp]

How do you pronounce 'Shkodran Mustafi'?

[DJ]

"Who the hell" or "Why not player x" IIRC

[JD nawrat]

How do you pronounce 'Shkodran Mustafi'?

Shko-dran (like "show" with a k, dran just like ran with a d in front)

Moo-staff-ee

The "Mustafi" is more like "Moostafi" but otherwise you just say it how it looks.

[buffalo]

where's the stress on in the last name though, which part: the Mu, Sta or Fi

[DJ]

He's German, so it's Mus-TAA-fi ^^

[JD nawrat]

Yes the Taa is stressed

[Blue Lou]

Clive Tyldesley explains why he's decided to call James Rodriguez by the anglicised equivalent.

http://www.kickitout.org/meet-our-2014-fifa-world-cup-bloggers/clive-tyldesley/

[brett.spurs]

I agree with him. Sit down you uppity linguist hipsters.

[buffalo]

cheers for that. Do Germans always say names the German way though? Do they go Italian on Italian names, whether it's Italian or Italo-Swiss, or Italo-German?

never look at German tv. I know in Belgium some do the extra effort to say the name as correct as possible, others don't. The French tend to make something of it as they see fit in general.

[georginho_juventusygr]

I personally think that "Jeimz" is acceptable. It's understandable that the commentators don't have time to look for how to pronounce each and every name, from Portuguese to Persian, from Dutch to Papiamentu. As long as you don't call Goochannejhad "Dave", it's acceptable to pronounce names like you would do if the names were English.

This is comparable to how scientists pronounce the bacterium E. coli. Nobody I know pronounces it like it should be in Latin: co - lee. It's always pronounced like it were english: co - lie.

[DJ]

cheers for that. Do Germans always say names the German way though? Do they go Italian on Italian names, whether it's Italian or Italo-Swiss, or Italo-German?

never look at German tv. I know in Belgium some do the extra effort to say the name as correct as possible, others don't. The French tend to make something of it as they see fit in general.

The Germans try, but are not very good. 'Al-dehr-waireld' is a real tongue breaker for example. Or 'Koit' and 'Koipers'. 'Tschermeen Tschones' is another Germanized name.

[adhikapp]

Why is 'Kuyt' is pronounced 'Kawt' and Van Buyten' is 'Van Bawten' while 'De Bruyne' is 'De Brewn'?

Also, isn't Dirk's last name is actually spelled Kuijt, and it should be pronounced like 'kite'? I hope the Dutch guys here can help.

[FaceCrusher]

James did say when he came to Porto that he was ok with both versions. James is an English name after all, Colombians seem to like them.

It's the same with Jackson, and everyone says it in the English way.

[Mr Wallin]

James did say when he came to Porto that he was ok with both versions. James is an English name after all, Colombians seem to like them.

It's the same with Jackson, and everyone says it in the English way.

One of the commentators here said he was named after a fairly well known movie agent, he could be talking out of his ass (they usually are) but still.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Why is 'Kuyt' is pronounced 'Kawt' and Van Buyten' is 'Van Bawten' while 'De Bruyne' is 'De Brewn'?

Also, isn't Dirk's last name is actually spelled Kuijt, and it should be pronounced like 'kite'? I hope the Dutch guys here can help.

All three UI-UY sounds should sound similar. De Brewn is definitely miles off. Although, I suppose that would be a French variant.

http://www.forvo.com/word/dirk_kuyt/#vls - the ones in Dutch

http://www.forvo.com/word/daniel_van_buyten/#nl - for Van Buyten

I just did the Kevin De Bruyne in Dutch:

http://www.forvo.com/word/kevin_de_bruyne/

[Eleanor_Rigby]

Not quite a guy's name or really asking a question, but it's really getting on my tits the way the commentators are pronouncing some names.

'Fiorentina' being pronounced like some sort of terrible hip hop duo "Fear and Tina". The name is pronounced as it looks, so why does Tyler insist on pronouncing it like 'Fear-an-teen-a'? It genuinely spells itself out ffs.

nothing does my head in more than this sort of thing. Probably got a load of names wrong as well but I can't think of any (I try to avoid listening to them but sometimes I can't help it ).

It's the same with 'Jew-ventus'. So many commentators pronounce it wrongly. It's not as if Juve are a provinsial club that no one has really heard of ffs.

[Bradz FM]

Why is Ramires pronounced Ha-mires yet Christiano Ronaldo is just Ronaldo. Is there such a big difference between Portugese and Brazilian Portuguese?

[buffalo]

I've never heard a R pronounced as a H before tbh, what's that all about

a J yes, but not an R

[robbert_o154]

Why is 'Kuyt' is pronounced 'Kawt' and Van Buyten' is 'Van Bawten' while 'De Bruyne' is 'De Brewn'?

Also, isn't Dirk's last name is actually spelled Kuijt, and it should be pronounced like 'kite'? I hope the Dutch guys here can help.

In addition to what Red said: you're right that the proper spelling is Kuijt, but for pronunciation purposes this makes no difference.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Aye, it's the same thing with Van Nistelrooij/y and Cruijff/Cruyff etc.

[buffalo]

In addition to what Red said: you're right that the proper spelling is Kuijt, but for pronunciation purposes this makes no difference.

that forvo site is a great find. Do like the Halsema-style-R pronunciation in some of the Dutch ones

[JD nawrat]

Why is Ramires pronounced Ha-mires yet Christiano Ronaldo is just Ronaldo. Is there such a big difference between Portugese and Brazilian Portuguese?

I don't know about Portuguese and Brazilian-Portuguese but I presume that is the difference, yes.

I guess the Brazilians call him Cristiano Honaldo (Paulo will clarify I'm sure).

[JD nawrat]

It's the same with 'Jew-ventus'. So many commentators pronounce it wrongly. It's not as if Juve are a provinsial club that no one has really heard of ffs.

Yeah, "Jewventus" is the most annoying one of all I think. That really does my tits in. It's just ignorance. There's arguments like Tyler's awful "I'm Anglicizing it!" above but anglicizing Juventus doesn't make the J hard This one's just plain ignorant.

As for Tyler's "I'm Anglicizing it!" - I don't mind that. Things like James being "Jaimz" instead of "Hamez" is fine. Outright ignoring things like the G in Benaglio being silent is not fine. It's common decency.

James is an English name, so that's normal. Benaglio is Italian, so you should at least respect that and pronounce it as close to the way an Italian or Italo-Swiss person would - which is not pronouncing the G.

Another one is people calling the Greek defender Sokratis Papastathopoulos - his first name isn't "SOCK-ra-teez". It's "so-KRA-tiss". "Oh his name looks a bit like 'Socrates' but with a K instead so let's just ignore his name completely and call him something else entirely :thup:"

Calling Benaglio "Ben-ag-lee-oh" is calling him something entirely different from what he is and ignoring the fact that his name is not English (why does everything have to be English ffs, have some respect for different cultures). It'd be like someone butchering my surname from "Down-ee" to "Dow-nye" or something. It's just not right and it would annoy me.

Anglicized versions of names are fine to a point. And this doesn't make me some sort of "snobby hipster" or anything like that, it's just a sign of respect. If you went to a foreign country and they started pronouncing your name totally different to what your supposed to be known as, you'd probably be annoyed. In some circumstances it's normal, because certain languages struggle with letters more than others - my French teacher always called me "Sho-rdan" (soft J) because she was French and a hard J is not an easy thing for a native French person to pronounce (or, in other words, she had an accent). If she started calling me "Jourdain" (or any other forms including Jourdan etc) I'd ask her not to, because that's not my name, is it?

[FaceCrusher]

I don't know about Portuguese and Brazilian-Portuguese but I presume that is the difference, yes.

I guess the Brazilians call him Cristiano Honaldo (Paulo will clarify I'm sure).

Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese will sound like different languages to foreign people, though the words are mostly the same.

There are almost 500 years of separated evolution, plus Brazilian-Portuguese phonetics have some African influence.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I fully agree. It IS the job of the commentator to provide accurate information, and that includes the pronounciation of names.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

It's like saying - hey, I'm a journalist but I can't be bothered with talking to both parties because it takes too much time - so I just believe everything the one person says.

[JD nawrat]

It's like saying - hey, I'm a journalist but I can't be bothered with talking to both parties because it takes too much time - so I just believe everything the one person says.

"It's okay, they're bloody foreigners, they're never going to understand what we're saying anyway!"

[robbert_o154]

It's like saying - hey, I'm a journalist but I can't be bothered with talking to both parties because it takes too much time - so I just believe everything the one person says.

Well, that is a pretty accurate description of journalism in the 21th century tbf.

[brett.spurs]

I bet you all say Cote d'Ivoire too.

[georginho_juventusygr]

Yeah, "Jewventus" is the most annoying one of all I think. That really does my tits in. It's just ignorance. There's arguments like Tyler's awful "I'm Anglicizing it!" above but anglicizing Juventus doesn't make the J hard This one's just plain ignorant.

As for Tyler's "I'm Anglicizing it!" - I don't mind that. Things like James being "Jaimz" instead of "Hamez" is fine. Outright ignoring things like the G in Benaglio being silent is not fine. It's common decency.

James is an English name, so that's normal. Benaglio is Italian, so you should at least respect that and pronounce it as close to the way an Italian or Italo-Swiss person would - which is not pronouncing the G.

Another one is people calling the Greek defender Sokratis Papastathopoulos - his first name isn't "SOCK-ra-teez". It's "so-KRA-tiss". "Oh his name looks a bit like 'Socrates' but with a K instead so let's just ignore his name completely and call him something else entirely :thup:"

Calling Benaglio "Ben-ag-lee-oh" is calling him something entirely different from what he is and ignoring the fact that his name is not English (why does everything have to be English ffs, have some respect for different cultures). It'd be like someone butchering my surname from "Down-ee" to "Dow-nye" or something. It's just not right and it would annoy me.

Anglicized versions of names are fine to a point. And this doesn't make me some sort of "snobby hipster" or anything like that, it's just a sign of respect. If you went to a foreign country and they started pronouncing your name totally different to what your supposed to be known as, you'd probably be annoyed. In some circumstances it's normal, because certain languages struggle with letters more than others - my French teacher always called me "Sho-rdan" (soft J) because she was French and a hard J is not an easy thing for a native French person to pronounce (or, in other words, she had an accent). If she started calling me "Jourdain" (or any other forms including Jourdan etc) I'd ask her not to, because that's not my name, is it?

I fully agree. It IS the job of the commentator to provide accurate information, and that includes the pronounciation of names.

It's like saying - hey, I'm a journalist but I can't be bothered with talking to both parties because it takes too much time - so I just believe everything the one person says.

While seeing the point, which is right, I think we should understand that commentators don't have very much time to research each and every name. It's kind of the point buffalo made above. I went through the list of the players in Wikipedia in a quest to know how to pronounce the names to be about right. And it cost hours and hours to research: where a name comes from, from which language it originates, how letters are pronounced in that language, and how you can describe the phonology of that language.

Examples. Brazilian names, apart from names like Hulk, are from Brazilian Portuguese. So, it's rather straightforward to research how you pronounce the names in the squad. Croatian names are Croatian, but Schildenfeld has Austrian roots; so, you look up how you pronounce German words. The Netherlands consists of Dutch names, but it's taking a longer time because Martins Indi is a Portuguese name, De Guzmán's father is from the Philippines and has a Spanish name, and Wijnaldum's first name (Georginio) is certainly not Dutch, perhaps a kind of creole Surinamese uses. Swiss players are similar: İnler has Turkish roots, Xhaka and some others Albanian, and Rodríguez probably Spanish. Things definitely get complicated if the language needs to be transliterated, e.g., Iran. Persian uses Persian alphabets, which are actually abjads and not alphabets.

[JD nawrat]

I bet you all say Cote d'Ivoire too.

Anglicized countries are completely different - nobody takes that personally.

Nobody says Deutschland, Espana, 'Mehico' etc etc

Same way the French will not refer to us as Scotland, they'll say Écosse. You're Angleterre, not England. That's fine because it's a place name, not a person's name.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I think you can find the pronunciation of most players in a matter of minutes. If there is the one abnormality, it's not worth complaining about. But some commentators are so silly and so lethargic that it's just insulting.

They will just need to stick in another 30 minutes and write down the correct way on a piece of paper. It's not acceptable to say David Villa wrongly.

[brett.spurs]

So how far do you take it? We have English words for the countries, we don't say the native version(well I don't, maybe some of you do). If you're going for the native pronounciation of player names like "Benaglio" then surely we should be saying "Italia" instead of "Italy" too? It's a pretty natural thing to anglicise these words and I agree with Clive Tyldesley when he says it's about identification, plus I'd find it pretty weird listening to commentators/pundits try-harding their way through names and most likely butchering them in the process.

[JD nawrat]

While seeing the point, which is right, I think we should understand that commentators don't have very much time to research each and every name. It's kind of the point buffalo made above. I went through the list of the players in Wikipedia in a quest to know how to pronounce the names to be about right. And it cost hours and hours to research: where a name comes from, from which language it originates, how letters are pronounced in that language, and how you can describe the phonology of that language.

Examples. Brazilian names, apart from names like Hulk, are from Brazilian Portuguese. So, it's rather straightforward to research how you pronounce the names in the squad. Croatian names are Croatian, but Schildenfeld has Austrian roots; so, you look up how you pronounce German words. The Netherlands consists of Dutch names, but it's taking a longer time because Martins Indi is a Portuguese name, De Guzmán's father is from the Philippines and has a Spanish name, and Wijnaldum's first name (Georginio) is certainly not Dutch, perhaps a kind of creole Surinamese uses. Swiss players are similar: İnler has Turkish roots, Xhaka and some others Albanian, and Rodríguez probably Spanish. Things definitely get complicated if the language needs to be transliterated, e.g., Iran. Persian uses Persian alphabets, which are actually abjads and not alphabets.

Well you do have a point here, but if I'm told on Monday that on Wednesday I'll be commentating France v Greece, I'm going to make a point of making sure I don't make a total arse of it and butcher every name.

I mean, Jean is Anglicized to John, so can I start calling Jean Beausejour, "John Beausejour"? There's a distinct difference between Anglicizing words and just being plain ignorant. James being pronounced "Jaimz" instead of "Hamez" is fine, by all means, James is an English name anyway. Benaglio etc doesn't need to be Anglicized (can't, really) so why do commentators take it upon themselves to pronounce it with the G? Or are they just ignorant? (Pssst, it's the latter)

There's a difference that needs to be distinguished here - there's Anglicizing names (Hazard as Hazard instead of Azzar, James as Jaimz instead of Hamez) and then there's just being ignorant (Feerenteena, Jewventus, Benaggggggglio, 'Socrates' Papastathopoulos). I hate ignorance towards names as it is disrespectful and unnecessary. Anglicizing names where they can be done so, arguably should be done so, is fine.

[JD nawrat]

So how far do you take it? We have English words for the countries, we don't say the native version(well I don't, maybe some of you do). If you're going for the native pronounciation of player names like "Benaglio" then surely we should be saying "Italia" instead of "Italy" too? It's a pretty natural thing to anglicise these words and I agree with Clive Tyldesley when he says it's about identification, plus I'd find it pretty weird listening to commentators/pundits try-harding their way through names and most likely butchering them in the process.

Benaglio with the G pronounced is ignorant, not Anglicized. There's a massive difference. Anglicizing names like James to Jaimz instead of Hamez is completely fine.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

So how far do you take it? We have English words for the countries, we don't say the native version(well I don't, maybe some of you do). If you're going for the native pronounciation of player names like "Benaglio" then surely we should be saying "Italia" instead of "Italy" too? It's a pretty natural thing to anglicise these words and I agree with Clive Tyldesley when he says it's about identification, plus I'd find it pretty weird listening to commentators/pundits try-harding their way through names and most likely butchering them in the process.

Well, braidspurts

Countries have all accepted a general Anglicized name... eg. Japan. So that's definitely OK.

Player names are to be pronounced as realistically as possible and if everybody does it will be considered normal.

[brett.spurs]

Well, braidspurts

Countries have all accepted a general Anglicized name... eg. Japan. So that's definitely OK.

Player names are to be pronounced as realistically as possible and if everybody does it will be considered normal.

How about club names? Is it fine to anglicise Bayern München? If so, then why is it only names of people that we can't? Also, how about letters that we don't have in English? Take Thomas Müller for example, am I ignorant if I type Muller? What about Mueller? Am I wrong either way and should hunt around for an umlaut to please the crowd? Barça I' fine to type as Barca though right? As that isn't a person's name? I'm also ok to stick with C-S-K-A rather than saying it as one word?

Sure they could research the root of every name but as long as the pronounciation they give can be linked to the player they're identifying then it's really not a big deal in my view. Having been subjected to foreign names and pronounciations through football, I think most can make the leap to the foreign pronunciation and don't say it exactly as it reads in English, even if they don't get it 100% right. Sometimes they'll get it wrong, I hadn't been subjected to the pronounciation of Lucas Digne, the natural leap for an educated Brit would have been Din-yeh or something similar, it turns out it's actually Deeeen but as long as the identification is clear then there's not a massive problem, they've at least put some effort into it rather than saying Dig-knee.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

How about club names? Is it fine to anglicise Bayern München? If so, then why is it only names of people that we can't? Also, how about letters that we don't have in English? Take Thomas Müller for example, am I ignorant if I type Muller? What about Mueller? Am I wrong either way and should hunt around for an umlaut to please the crowd? Barça I' fine to type as Barca though right? As that isn't a person's name? I'm also ok to stick with C-S-K-A rather than saying it as one word?

Sure they could research the root of every name but as long as the pronounciation they give can be linked to the player they're identifying then it's really not a big deal in my view. Having been subjected to foreign names and pronounciations through football, I think most can make the leap to the foreign pronunciation and don't say it exactly as it reads in English, even if they don't get it 100% right. Sometimes they'll get it wrong, I hadn't been subjected to the pronounciation of Lucas Digne, the natural leap for an educated Brit would have been Din-yeh or something similar, it turns out it's actually Deeeen but as long as the identification is clear then there's not a massive problem, they've at least put some effort into it rather than saying Dig-knee.

People will understand what you mean when you write Barca, but it is wrong. Mueller is commonly accepted, in Germany as well, as the Germans realize not every country uses umlauts. Although, I feel it should be Bayern München - you can say Munich is ok, as that is the official English name for the same city. Although it feels horrible wrong for me.

There is no official English name for Beausejour though. Or should we start calling him Goodtheday or whatever?

I don't really have any issues if you and your mates want to butcher Vertonghen and Chiriches' names (and god knows how many names you English butcher) - but from a professional commentator and sports journalists I expect a much better performance.

I will also be tweeting to BBC again, if I hear the commentators mess up Jelle Vanendert for the I don't know how many times during the Tour de France. It's not a difficult name to pronounce.

If you guys struggle with Beugelsdijk - hey, I can forgive you for that one.

[JD nawrat]

The club is Bayern München - it says so on their badge ffs - so I have always and will always call them Bayern München, München, or Bayern. I'm not sure of your point on CSKA - it isn't one word, it is an acronym which standards for Central Sports Army Club (translated into Russian the ordering of words change so it becomes CSCA and for whatever reason the second C becomes a K).

Umlauts are a pain in the arse because they're not easily accessed on most UK keyboards, so typing Müller as Muller is fine imo and that's generally accepted too. It's also the same for Barcelona.

As for Lucas Digne - you're wrong, it's not "Deeeen". Again, that's just ignorance from UK Commentators. I discussed this above (maybe last page) and it's actually similar to the gn sound in Mignolet. You don't say, "Meeeenolay", do you? It's "Meen-yo-lay". It's also Luca, not Lucas (the French do not pronounce the S in Lucas). The phonetic spelling is "Loo-ka Dee-nya". The natural leap for an educated Brit being Din-yeh is closer than the leap an educated Brit commentator makes, because "Deeeen" isn't even close.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Doesn't FC Londen, of FC Londres sound weird to you too - if there would be an FC London?

[Jeroen Thijssen]

In Dutch, we have variations on city names as well

London -> Londen

Berlin -> Berlijn

Milano -> Milaan

Roma -> Rome

Athinai -> Athene

Paris -> Parijs

Moskva -> Moskou

etc.

but we don't adjust the team names. We will say the team, which is based in Berlijn, but they are called Hertha BSC Berlin.

[buffalo]

thought that for umlauts they put "ue" instead of "ü" sometimes. And as for names, well, if they're in cyrillic I can understand any changes, like in the "ow" or "ov" area for example.

As for club names aren't these registered and official brand names and therefore to be used as in the original language and/or as registered/inscribed in domestic and European leagues?

[JD nawrat]

Also - Red (and LilSaint and anyone else who is Belgian or Dutch), how do you know (if there is a way to know...) when to distinguish between Dutch, French or German (the languages of Belgium). Someone asked about De Bruyne and van Buyten and that's a good example. De Bruyne is pronounced the way the French pronounce it, but van Buyten is pronounced the way the Dutch pronounce it. Do you tell simply by the pre-fix (De/van)? Always intrigued me, this.

For example Jelle Vanendert - I don't follow cycling at all so I didn't even know the name. I assumed it French so thought it would be pronounced "Yell Vanenderr". Apparently it's "Yelleh VanenderT", because his name is Dutch and not French like I had assumed. How do you know?

I realise I'm probably being ignorant here myself, but at least I'm attempting to understand

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Also - Red (and LilSaint and anyone else who is Belgian or Dutch), how do you know (if there is a way to know...) when to distinguish between Dutch, French or German (the languages of Belgium). Someone asked about De Bruyne and van Buyten and that's a good example. De Bruyne is pronounced the way the French pronounce it, but van Buyten is pronounced the way the Dutch pronounce it. Do you tell simply by the pre-fix (De/van)? Always intrigued me, this.

For example Jelle Vanendert - I don't follow cycling at all so I didn't even know the name. I assumed it French so thought it would be pronounced "Yell Vanenderr". Apparently it's "Yelleh VanenderT", because his name is Dutch and not French like I had assumed. How do you know?

I realise I'm probably being ignorant here myself, but at least I'm attempting to understand

If they're Belgian, it's pronounced like in Dutch.

If they're French (which they're not) - it's pronounced like in French.

Although French speakers will pronounce it differently. But any player with Van in their name - it is derived from the Dutch language.

They actually call him VanenDIRT - instead of Van-endert; as in game ender.

[JD nawrat]

If they're Belgian, it's pronounced like in Dutch.

If they're French (which they're not) - it's pronounced like in French.

Although French speakers will pronounce it differently. But any player with Van in their name - it is derived from the Dutch language.

They actually call him VanenDIRT - instead of Van-endert; as in game ender.

But how do you know whether to pronounce it in French or in Dutch? How would you know De Bruyne is pronounced the way the French pronounce it and not the way the Dutch/Belgians pronounce it? Is it because of the De in De Bruyne?