What exactly have I paid for here?

[RTHerringbone]

oh and the answer to question .... you've payed for a unfinished game that will be finished by march next year but SI need the money so to hell with everythink else get the game out get the dollar lets rip our loyal following of and lose customers year on year I hope to god some other company can bring another management sim out

A lot of your recent posts have been along these eloquent lines.

Constructive feedback is welcome, unsubstantiated drivel is not.

Please qualify your statements with some semblance of fact in future, rather than wheeling out tired rants all the time.

[themadsheep2001]

You honestly thought it was tactically sound to have your defensive midfielders get dragged out of position by marking the wingers? Of course that's going to cause problems when they attack down the middle.

There are still some issues with overpowered wingers because of low aggression from defending full backs. SI are working on tweaking that. In the meantime you can try closing the wingers down more and tackel them harder. And have your own wingers man mark the opposing wing backs, if they're overloading the flanks.

I just noticed this. Frankfizzle, what were you thinking?!

I'm genuinely interested in your tactical decisions. If you create a thread in the tactics section i'd been keen to have a look and offer any info if you like, sure you'd get plenty of help from others too

[Lazarus]

Your players are probably not familiar with your tactics at all. They are seriously lacking team cohesion, so they highly likely won't work together properly be it in defence or offence. They are all used to different styles of play (closing down, creative freedom, passing, tempo, etc.) from their former clubs. This squad also has a number of players who are not able to communicate with each other which cripples success even further.

I also suspect that team talks are failing. These players are a cobbled together squad of world class players and highly likely don't respect you as manager(yet), so team talks have to be given with extra care.

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to give FMC a shot, it will make things a bit easier. And maybe SI should implement a difficulty setting in the future with a lower difficulty level that makes all AI weaker vs the player team.

[Macshimmy]

For the sake of an argument, lets actually analyse some of the visible detail in those games.

Having played as Derby County last season, I'll have a go at the first one.

Firstly, the 'world class' lineup Blackburn are fielding will make them massive favourites, and presumably complacent with it.

So, what do the 'mighty' Derby County do faced with this world class lineup? - They play defensive, keep-ball football, and kick the crap out of Messi and C Ronaldo.

The '4-4-2' they are playing actually features two 'false' wide players - Paul Coutts and Jody Morris. Both of these are tough-tackling, limited but aggressive midfielders.

Behind these two ******** are two very talented fullbacks - Adam Smith and Keiran Freeman both have pace, good decision making and the discipline to follow team orders.

This means all Ronaldo or Messi's wing play has to get past two markers. Tricky without Xavi or Xabi Alonso to hustle up and provide a good option in the centre.

Why isn't Fabregas doing this?

Because he's Fabregas. He's making a run into the box. So when wonder-boy loses the ball, there is a hole in midfield. Craig Bryson is exactly the kind of box-to-box midfielder

I would expect to exploit such an obvious opportunity.

At the back, Derby have two big solid centrebacks with decent positional sense and enough presence to compete with Pique and Ramos.

Last, but very much not least - 30,000 Derby fans. It is an away game, although from the Blackburn selection presumably the manager didn't register this.

[daylight]

No disrespect Macshimmy but I could put my 3 year old kid in charge of that Blackburn side and he would get a result against Derby!

[Georgik]

So all of you talking about team cohesion, anyone has the guts to bet that if the AI was managing that team and him Derby or Nottm Forrest, 100 times out of 100 he would get trashed no matter what tactic would he used ?

[Marc Albrighton]

So you should be able to play any tactic you want and win all the time because you have given yourself the worlds best players?

[themadsheep2001]

So all of you talking about team cohesion, anyone has the guts to bet that if the AI was managing that team, 100 times out of 100 he would get trashed no matter what tactic would he used ?

It's unlike anyone would have been as bad tbh. Any sane manager would have made team cohesion and tactics only training their focus. By 3rd of august, I would have had my familiarity at near fluid.

[milnerpoint]

So all of you talking about team cohesion, anyone has the guts to bet that if the AI was managing that team and him Derby or Nottm Forrest, 100 times out of 100 he would get trashed no matter what tactic would he used ?

Why would you need guts to say yes or no to that question?

Yes its very likely the AI would have won those games.

[Macshimmy]

No disrespect Macshimmy but I could put my 3 year old kid in charge of that Blackburn side and he would get a result against Derby!

That's just not how football works though. I've watched two different Celtic teams beat Barcelona home and away.

Neither team was spectacularly individually talented (although one had Henrik Larsson in it) but every player knew their job, and played their hearts out. It happens, and so it should in FM.

[rzarector]

No screenshot of the league table etc? Two results isn't much to go on.

[Georgik]

So you should be able to play any tactic you want and win all the time because you have given yourself the worlds best players?

At Championship level, pretty much yes. No any tactic, like 2 defenders or things like that, any normal tactic would suffice against Championship teams if you have that sort of players.

[deltablue]

You should continue this no matter what and let us know, as someone said above this does makes for an interesting (and amusingly unsuccessful so far) experiment.

[milnerpoint]

At Championship level, pretty much yes. No any tactic, like 2 defenders or things like that, any normal tactic would suffice against Championship teams if you have that sort of players.

That post signifies one of the biggest problems facing SI, people who dont understand football.

[daylight]

So you should be able to play any tactic you want and win all the time because you have given yourself the worlds best players?

In all fairness if you have a team of the worlds best players and playing Derby then yes you should.

If you are playing a top side then of course it would be more difficult, but for that line up to lose to both Derby and Forest then I do feel there is something wrong.

[milnerpoint]

In all fairness if you have a team of the worlds best players and playing Derby then yes you should.

If you are playing a top side then of course it would be more difficult, but for that line up to lose to both Derby and Forest then I do feel there is something wrong.

So you would say a new team of 11, who have known each other a few weeks, most cant speak to each other, with a manager who can't speak to them, playing in a new league, new set up, new way of playing, new country and playing against two teams who have been together for a while, settled systems, managers been there for a while, would not struggle, because they have the best players?

[daylight]

That's just not how football works though. I've watched two different Celtic teams beat Barcelona home and away.

Neither team was spectacularly individually talented (although one had Henrik Larsson in it) but every player knew their job, and played their hearts out. It happens, and so it should in FM.

As a fellow Celtic fan, Barcelona are due to give us a right hiding 1 day.

Also Celtic are quite a bit better than Derby and that team the OP has is quite a bit better than the Barcelona side.

You could maybe make your peace with the fact Derby played their hearts out and somehow managed to beat that Blackburn side but for Forest then to come away from home and also beat them? Nah not buying that.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I think the better experiment than this guy's save is realising who on this thread actually understands football and who doesn't.

[daylight]

So you would say a new team of 11, who have known each other a few weeks, most cant speak to each other, with a manager who can't speak to them, playing in a new league, new set up, new way of playing, new country and playing against two teams who have been together for a while, settled systems, managers been there for a while, would not struggle, because they have the best players?

They can't talk to each other?

I suggest you look at the players again and in what leagues they have been/are playing and for what international sides they play for.

The same goes for them only playing together for a few weeks.

Class will always shine through, as I said I am not buying that team would lose away to Derby followed by a home defeat against Forest.

[daylight]

I think the better experiment than this guy's save is realising who on this thread actually understands football and who doesn't.

I am sure you will enlighten everyone, you have been quite good at pointing out everyone's faults so far on this forum.

[Macshimmy]

for that line up to lose to both Derby and Forest then I do feel there is something wrong.

That line-up is a disaster for an away game against a limited opponent. You don't need two Trequaristas in one team. That line-up has three, plus Alan Judge (who lets face it isn't getting passed to.)

How many times did Falcao make a run only for Ronaldo/Messi/Fabregas to ignore him completely and try to walk the ball into the goal?

There is only one player in that front six who would even try to tackle someone, let alone succeed. What is Vidal supposed to do if Derby just pass it around their own half?

[Georgik]

So you would say a new team of 11, who have known each other a few weeks, most cant speak to each other, with a manager who can't speak to them, playing in a new league, new set up, new way of playing, new country and playing against two teams who have been together for a while, settled systems, managers been there for a while, would not struggle, because they have the best players?

I understand footbal very well, i'm watching it since i was 7, and now i'm 24, played since CM with a good ammount of succes. But what you're saying isnt entirely true, you're going to the extremes, i can assure you that the football language is universal, you don't have to speak the same language (this is just a bonus), and it's unlikely that they cant speak to each other, since they all must know basic english and if not, falcao, messi, vidal or ronaldo speak spanish easily, to give you a few examples (let alone ramos, fabregas, pique), also alaba and neuer should get along easily, like chiellini and vidal.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I am sure you will enlighten everyone, you have been quite good at pointing out everyone's faults so far on this forum.

Try responding to the post and not the poster, there's a good chap.

[daylight]

Try responding to the post and not the poster, there's a good chap.

Says the guy that went off topic with veiled insults to other poster.

[Macshimmy]

As a fellow Celtic fan, Barcelona are due to give us a right hiding 1 day.

http://www.fcbarcelona-tickets.co.uk/tickets/50/fc-barcelona-glasgow-celtic

(aw no annonis oan now and aw)

that team the OP has is quite a bit better than the Barcelona side

Better? Possibly.

Better balanced?

No team without Andres Iniesta could be better balanced.

[themadsheep2001]

Try responding to the post and not the poster, there's a good chap.

Says the guy that went off topic with veiled insults to other poster.

Play nice fellas.

[milnerpoint]

They can't talk to each other?

I suggest you look at the players again and in what leagues they have been/are playing and for what international sides they play for.

The same goes for them only playing together for a few weeks.

Class will always shine through, as I said I am not buying that team would lose away to Derby followed by a home defeat against Forest.

Ok maybe i was a bit off with the language, but it certainly wont be a walk in the park for that team to communicate effectively with each other.

This is such a stupid thread, its an impossible never ever ever going to happen situation, and your trying to compare it to reality.

Show me a single instance of a brand new 11, of top class players, in a new system, with a new manager, instantly clicking, and ill walk away from the forum forever.

[Benjamin_Ng]

OP, can you try being Derby and playing against that Blackburn team? According to the posters in this thread you should be able to win handily. How about you try it out?

[milnerpoint]

Show me one person who has says he can win it easily, infact i would say the OP himself has zero chance of winning, the AI or other posters is a different story.

[Georgik]

OP, can you try being Derby and playing against that Blackburn team? According to the posters in this thread you should be able to win handily. How about you try it out?

i say 7-0 for blackburn

[Dagenham_Dave]

OP, can you try being Derby and playing against that Blackburn team? According to the posters in this thread you should be able to win handily.

Yes, except no-one has actually said this.

[Benjamin_Ng]

Show me one person who has says he can win it easily, infact i would say the OP himself has zero chance of winning, the AI or other posters is a different story.

Doesn't matter because according to the posters here the Blackburn wouldn't be able to win no matter what tactics being played due to morale and team cohesion and stuff.

[milnerpoint]

Doesn't matter because according to the posters here the Blackburn wouldn't be able to win no matter what tactics being played due to morale and team cohesion and stuff.

Again, no one has said that. How about you actually read the thread, and then start posting in it.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Doesn't matter because according to the posters here the Blackburn wouldn't be able to win no matter what tactics being played due to morale and team cohesion and stuff.

Again, not a single person has said that.

[Dagenham_Dave]

milnerpoint and I are not the same person, just to clarify matters

[Raest]

I'm currently using a similar tactic with Liverpool a few seasons in. I use a DM (S), a BWM left of centre mid, and an AP right of centre attack. IF on the left and winger on the right (Some players with specific IF instruction), and a CF upfront.

No DM, leaves the 4-4-2 2v2 at the back on the break. Especially with those FB's!

If you aren't using 'retain possession' shout you'll get hit on the break more. Also you're CB's will boot the ball straight back to the opposition.

If you have a mentality of < Attacking, your defensive line is way too deep. Since last patch I've also seen this cause almost the whole team to drop back into the box (Inside 6yd box at times - usually when winger takes ball into corner). A pull back to mid at edge of box -> Goal almost every time. Or they then pass to the SC inside box who blasts home.

I'd be interested to see the goals...

And can we keep it helpful? I have a feeling something isn't right at the mo. More work is needed on these matches with 40+ shots - Poss related to what I described above.

I do agree with some of the previous posts, cohesion and framework do need to be taken into consideration - But c'mon those scores are a tad ridiculous considering the talent?

[Macshimmy]

I'm just going to go ahead and post this again, seeing as everyone is shunning analysis in favour of a big girly fight with hair pulling and slapping:

For the sake of an argument, lets actually analyse some of the visible detail in those games.

Having played as Derby County last season, I'll have a go at the first one.

Firstly, the 'world class' lineup Blackburn are fielding will make them massive favourites, and presumably complacent with it.

So, what do the 'mighty' Derby County do faced with this world class lineup? - They play defensive, keep-ball football, and kick the crap out of Messi and C Ronaldo.

The '4-4-2' they are playing actually features two 'false' wide players - Paul Coutts and Jody Morris. Both of these are tough-tackling, limited but aggressive midfielders.

Behind these two ******** are two very talented fullbacks - Adam Smith and Keiran Freeman both have pace, good decision making and the discipline to follow team orders.

This means all Ronaldo or Messi's wing play has to get past two markers. Tricky without Xavi or Xabi Alonso to hustle up and provide a good option in the centre.

Why isn't Fabregas doing this?

Because he's Fabregas. He's making a run into the box. So when wonder-boy loses the ball, there is a hole in midfield. Craig Bryson is exactly the kind of box-to-box midfielder

I would expect to exploit such an obvious opportunity.

At the back, Derby have two big solid centrebacks with decent positional sense and enough presence to compete with Pique and Ramos.

Last, but very much not least - 30,000 Derby fans. It is an away game, although from the Blackburn selection presumably the manager didn't register this.

[FrankFizzle]

You honestly thought it was tactically sound to have your defensive midfielders get dragged out of position by marking the wingers? Of course that's going to cause problems when they attack down the middle.

There are still some issues with overpowered wingers because of low aggression from defending full backs. SI are working on tweaking that. In the meantime you can try closing the wingers down more and tackel them harder. And have your own wingers man mark the opposing wing backs, if they're overloading the flanks.

If you read the opening sentence genius you'll see the words "experimenting". Nothing else I tried was working (yes I asked for help too). With the fullbacks acting as cover the wingers were snuffed out the game & to be honest it was actually proving successful. Obviously the flaw being the midfield exposed. But as it was so exposed every shot they took out of the area went in. Penalised. (See earlier point)

So there is a problem that's being tweaked then - that comes as no surprise what so ever.

[FrankFizzle]

I'm just going to go ahead and post this again, seeing as everyone is shunning analysis in favour of a big girly fight with hair pulling and slapping:

For the sake of an argument, lets actually analyse some of the visible detail in those games.

Having played as Derby County last season, I'll have a go at the first one.

Firstly, the 'world class' lineup Blackburn are fielding will make them massive favourites, and presumably complacent with it.

So, what do the 'mighty' Derby County do faced with this world class lineup? - They play defensive, keep-ball football, and kick the crap out of Messi and C Ronaldo.

The '4-4-2' they are playing actually features two 'false' wide players - Paul Coutts and Jody Morris. Both of these are tough-tackling, limited but aggressive midfielders.

Behind these two ******** are two very talented fullbacks - Adam Smith and Keiran Freeman both have pace, good decision making and the discipline to follow team orders.

This means all Ronaldo or Messi's wing play has to get past two markers. Tricky without Xavi or Xabi Alonso to hustle up and provide a good option in the centre.

Why isn't Fabregas doing this?

Because he's Fabregas. He's making a run into the box. So when wonder-boy loses the ball, there is a hole in midfield. Craig Bryson is exactly the kind of box-to-box midfielder

I would expect to exploit such an obvious opportunity.

At the back, Derby have two big solid centrebacks with decent positional sense and enough presence to compete with Pique and Ramos.

Last, but very much not least - 30,000 Derby fans. It is an away game, although from the Blackburn selection presumably the manager didn't register this.

This is hilarious.

Infact I think there's a serious bug with the match engine, I mean Derby should've atleast won 5 or 6-1.

[FrankFizzle]

did you even read what I said? PGS hugely struggled for a number of matches. He has zero cohesion and struggled in to score 2 games, there is nothing outlandish about that. The comparisons of a total lack of cohesion/tactical balance are are there.

You do realise the match engine cannot tell the difference between the AI and you, right?

Re defender, did you consider that your instructions might then not have been the ones to give? Because he clearly has you on toast. What did you do after he got the first? or the second?

With all due respect the team(s) that were struggling against PSG were probably better than Derby County & the Blackburn team edited would be better player for player than PSG.

You can sugar coat it all you want but in real life a team containing Messi, Ronaldo & Falcao would score atleast 1 between them in 2 games against Derby & Forest.

Regarding the 17 year old wonder kid from Bury Town U18's, he probably had the worst stats I've ever seen. As he scored 1 goal I put my left defender on tighter marking as he was getting too much space. What happened next I've already explained.

[jujigatame]

I'm not as strident as some about it, but I did feel like in FM13 it was a bit too easy for minnows to beat giants due to morale/motivation/cohesion issues. I think those factors have a bit too much influence in the game, and sometimes there is not enough of a noticeable gulf in quality between world-class players and semi-pros.

The fact is, national teams only train together a couple of months out of the year but that doesn't make it any more EXTRAORDINARILY rare to see a team like Spain lose to teams like Georgia/Belarus/Macedonia/etc.

[Georgik]

@macshimmy yes, 30.000 derby fans, that made the difference, because the other team was full of unexperienced youth players who havent played in front of such a large audience

[milnerpoint]

I'm not as strident as some about it, but I did feel like in FM13 it was a bit too easy for minnows to beat giants due to morale/motivation/cohesion issues. I think those factors have a bit too much influence in the game, and sometimes there is not enough of a noticeable gulf in quality between world-class players and semi-pros.

The fact is, national teams only train together a couple of months out of the year but that doesn't make it any more EXTRAORDINARILY rare to see a team like Spain lose to teams like Georgia/Belarus/Macedonia/etc.

Big difference to 11 players been moved to a new team in a new country to that of an International squad getting together 8-10 times a year.

[Dagenham_Dave]

@macshimmy yes, 30.000 derby fans, that made the difference, because the other team was full of unexperienced youth players who havent played in front of such a large audience

Yip, that's right, pick just one solitary part of his analysis and use that for the basis of your whole argument. Are you a politician by any chance?

[Jibby123]

The whining muppet in OP, can't remember his name, tried to break the system then whines that the system is broken. Go figure his/her logic on that.

Team cohesion counts for a lot on FM and you're punished harshly in my experience for complete clear outs, whether that's a good thing or not decide for yourselves. Evolution not revolution in squad building.

[le_crab]

Playing some pretty bad football too. But I wasn't comparing a whole season, but the opening two games of a season which a bunch of (extremely) talented players with zero cohesion and balance (which compares to the OP)

I agree with you totally sheep. When Ancelotti took over late December 12/Jan 13 PSG were awful under him and even going into the second when they finally won the title they were just about getting results playing really bad football for large chunks of the season.

[Georgik]

@dagenham forgot the one where messi and ronaldo were reduced to nobodys by the mighty derby defence and that chiellini, pique and ramos couldnt cope with their striking force

[FrankFizzle]

I'm just going to go ahead and post this again, seeing as everyone is shunning analysis in favour of a big girly fight with hair pulling and slapping:

For the sake of an argument, lets actually analyse some of the visible detail in those games.

Having played as Derby County last season, I'll have a go at the first one.

Firstly, the 'world class' lineup Blackburn are fielding will make them massive favourites, and presumably complacent with it.

So, what do the 'mighty' Derby County do faced with this world class lineup? - They play defensive, keep-ball football, and kick the crap out of Messi and C Ronaldo.

The '4-4-2' they are playing actually features two 'false' wide players - Paul Coutts and Jody Morris. Both of these are tough-tackling, limited but aggressive midfielders.

Behind these two ******** are two very talented fullbacks - Adam Smith and Keiran Freeman both have pace, good decision making and the discipline to follow team orders.

This means all Ronaldo or Messi's wing play has to get past two markers. Tricky without Xavi or Xabi Alonso to hustle up and provide a good option in the centre.

Why isn't Fabregas doing this?

Because he's Fabregas. He's making a run into the box. So when wonder-boy loses the ball, there is a hole in midfield. Craig Bryson is exactly the kind of box-to-box midfielder

I would expect to exploit such an obvious opportunity.

At the back, Derby have two big solid centrebacks with decent positional sense and enough presence to compete with Pique and Ramos.

Last, but very much not least - 30,000 Derby fans. It is an away game, although from the Blackburn selection presumably the manager didn't register this.

So, what do the 'mighty' Derby County do faced with this world class lineup? - They play defensive, keep-ball football, and kick the crap out of Messi and C Ronaldo.

"Defensive" yes, keep ball? Derby playing keep ball against that team? Are you joking?

Ronaldo or Messi to take past 2 players? Is that it? They take past about 5 or 6 in real life?

If wonder boy is Ronaldo / Messi / Fabregas then they are is a WORLD CLASS players, pretty much like ZERO of the Derby County squad & 9 of the Blackburn team. Don't take it for granted they lose the ball as often you'd think that the electric paced speed demon Craig Bryson could to take advantage.

To be honest I'm tired of this argument, I'm actually comparing Craig Bryson to Lionel Messi.

[milnerpoint]

@dagenham forgot the one where messi and ronaldo were reduced to nobodys by the mighty derby defence and that chiellini, pique and ramos couldnt cope with their striking force

Have you got anything useful to contribute?

[Dagenham_Dave]

Incidentally, what seems to be lost here among the froth-brigade is that no-one is saying these results aren't surprising results. At their very core they are, of course, when you look at the two team line-ups.

What the more erudite among us are trying to point out is the possible reasons for this happening, and if that would happen in real life. At face value, and with no other background info, a team featuring those star studded players would be able to beat Derby and Forest the vast majority of the time. But, as has been pointed out several times now, there are a number of contributing factors as to why those games were lost. To simply look at it, then dismissively blame the game itself for the results shows a slight misunderstanding of how FM, and in a broader sense football itself, actually works.