Russia fined and will be deducted Points for 2016 campaign

[FMtillidie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18431163

serves them right i say.

[SeanNUFC]

Well done Uefa.

[football_master_94]

6 point deduction ffs

[georginho_juventusygr]

Should have been for now.

[ddidiodion]

Isn't it a suspended punishment?

[gunner4eva]

Suspended punishment so means nothing if they don't do it again

[Niebiescy]

Isn't it a suspended punishment?

Yes and UEFA will never have the balls to carry it out. Also barely matters cos everyone will qualify for Euro 2016 due to increased team number to 24. Amazing though that they're threatening such severe punishment for this (which is bad and rightfully should be punished) yet did absolutely nothing during recent qualifiers when full scale riots broke out both among rival fans & fans vs cops inside stadia.

[bomma]

Yes and UEFA will never have the balls to carry it out. Also barely matters cos everyone will qualify for Euro 2016 due to increased team number to 24. Amazing though that they're threatening such severe punishment for this (which is bad and rightfully should be punished) yet did absolutely nothing during recent qualifiers when full scale riots broke out both among rival fans & fans vs cops inside stadia.

More a global interest in this tournament though rather than "just" a qualifier.

[Andyh21]

must say thought it would be a bit harsh straight out. I mean imagine being in Russia's qualifying group for euro 16 that would certainly perhaps open a new door for someone.

[Confused Clarity]

6 point deduction ffs

Why "ffs"? This should happen more, just need to do it for racism & stuff now too not just the fighting.

[outlander]

So what were the banners which are always mentioned? I haven't seen a single photo of them(doesn't mean there were none).

And didn't some another game had fireworks as well?

[football_master_94]

Why "ffs"? This should happen more, just need to do it for racism & stuff now too not just the fighting.

Because instead of giving a points deduction, they could've just banned fans from going to the home games and travelling away for x number of games

[georginho_juventusygr]

No, it's the time for heavier punishment.

If I was the decision maker, I would deduct points now instead of in 2016. I would also fine Germany for the paper-throwing stuff.

[cms186]

Because instead of giving a points deduction, they could've just banned fans from going to the home games and travelling away for x number of games

how does that motivate the russian football federation to do anything about tackling it though? it doesnt and punishes a lot of innocent fans too, this way the russians know that if they do nothing to tackle it and it happens again, they will be in trouble

[football_master_94]

The Russian FA might still do **** all with this current punishment and I don't see why the actual side should be getting a 6 point deduction on the basis of the fans behaviour and since you bring up the fact that there are innocent fans in this scenario, the national side have nothing to do with the incident whatsoever so I don't see the reason to sanction them.

Most crowd incidents/fan trouble usually ends up with a fine and the banning of fans attending games for a certain length of time and this incident shouldn't be any different, imo (hand out a larger fine than usual along with banning the fans for a longer time period than usual and that would be enough)

[ri916]

Doesnt 'suspended' 6 point deduction mean that if there is no more problems with fans then they will get off without the deduction? Or am I just getting confused...

[Andyh21]

Doesnt 'suspended' 6 point deduction mean that if there is no more problems with fans then they will get off without the deduction? Or am I just getting confused...

Yes I am assunimg that is the case

[Niebiescy]

So what were the banners which are always mentioned? I haven't seen a single photo of them(doesn't mean there were none).

And didn't some another game had fireworks as well?

These uniformed spotters for anti-racism groups keep claiming that the yellow, white and black Russian Imperial flags are far right hate symbols when they are not. As you can tell from my posts yesterday I'm not Russian fan, but they are being persecuted on that one. Keep seeing day on day comments from Western "spotters" about things that they don't understand and for some reason the media take their claims as the truth. There have definitely being some provocative flags/banners at this tournament, but the Russian Imperial flag is not one of them. Believe FARE were the ones making that particular claim who reported it to UEFA if you want to check up on the story.

[outlander]

These uniformed spotters for anti-racism groups keep claiming that the yellow, white and black Russian Imperial flags are far right hate symbols when they are not. As you can tell from my posts yesterday I'm not Russian fan, but they are being persecuted on that one. Keep seeing day on day comments from Western "spotters" about things that they don't understand and for some reason the media take their claims as the truth. There have definitely being some provocative flags/banners at this tournament, but the Russian Imperial flag is not one of them. Believe FARE were the ones making that particular claim who reported it to UEFA if you want to check up on the story.

Oh my ****ing god. If indeed Russia were punished for those flags UEFA can go to hell. Absolutely atrocious.

So, 6 points deduction for some fireworks thrown of the field? Ok, may be it's a good punishment but only if it is consistent by UEFA. And, I know for sure that there were dozens of such cases in UEFA competitions just past year and no such punishments. And there won't be any next year.

Same for those flags. I can assure you that those flags will be used by russian flags numerous times during the period of that suspended deduction. And UEFA won't have any balls to punish for it again. Same for other teams who use similar flags.

[Dirty_ACE]

These uniformed spotters for anti-racism groups keep claiming that the yellow, white and black Russian Imperial flags are far right hate symbols when they are not. As you can tell from my posts yesterday I'm not Russian fan, but they are being persecuted on that one. Keep seeing day on day comments from Western "spotters" about things that they don't understand and for some reason the media take their claims as the truth. There have definitely being some provocative flags/banners at this tournament, but the Russian Imperial flag is not one of them. Believe FARE were the ones making that particular claim who reported it to UEFA if you want to check up on the story.

That's exactly right. These so called observers (or whatever else they call themselves) have little to no clue as to what they're observing. They're making accusations based on pure assumptions. I honestly cannot see in any way how one could say those flags are supposed to be inflammatory if they just did a little research into imperial Russia's past. I honestly hate when people start making some "expert" conclusions on topics they clearly posses no or very little knowledge in.

[Niebiescy]

I agree it's ridiculous. I have some Russian friends who support CSKA Moscow and have been at games with them before. They fly those flags everywhere. All Russian groups do. Ironic thing is I've seen them fly Combat 18 flags and similar far right symbols and UEFA did absolutely nothing because nobody reported them. Now the idiots from FARE are reporting non-racist symbols as being racist yet nobody cared before during the CL/EL this season when there were actually racist flags. The whole inconsistency and lack of knowledge from these spotters is alarming and doing more harm than good during this tournament. The hammer and sickle is an inflammatory symbol in Poland due to recent history and the idiots flying them are doing so because of that, not because they are actually Communist supporters. Everyone knows most Russian fans are extreme right, not extreme left yet UEFA did nothing about this (not saying they should as it's part of the game to wind up your opponents) yet at the same time the extreme left spotters see Russian Imperial flags (which are just Russians celebrating their glorious past) as the major problem. Really think we need to have spotters from the regions where the teams come from who understand the symbols rather than these organisations such as FARE and Show Racism the Red Card sending British spotters who don't understand Eastern European history or politics.

[Niebiescy]

Here's an article to back up what I wrote earlier:

Monitors from the Football Against Racism in Europe (FARE) fans' network reported to UEFA that Russia fans also displayed a nationalist "Russian Empire" flag.

The symbol was one "we take as evidence of far-right sensibilities," FARE executive director Piara Powar told The Associated Press.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/story/2012-06-09/Russia-fans-at-heart-of-Euro-2012-racism-violence/55481090/1

[outlander]

And people here saying "well done" and that it should be done more. Yeah, deduct England points if there will be a White Dragon flag or something similar at any of their games.

And it's always been just a warning for fireworks, and if it is repeated then the closed game match. Why the hell it changes just for one case? And I bet it won't punished this way again against any other team, including Russian ones.

[Icondacarver]

Hold on a sec, was the banner in question not the "This is Russia" one?

[Niebiescy]

Hold on a sec, was the banner in question not the "This is Russia" one?

No. The punishment is from the opening game in Wroclaw, not from yesterday's game. The Russians didn't display a banner as such. I believe that it relates to their imperial flags as that's all they had at that game that could be listed as a "banner" and were part of FARE's report.

[ddidiodion]

Was it not for the communist flag which is illegal in Poland?

Edit: BBC says far right so I'm guessing not.

[Niebiescy]

Was it not for the communist flag which is illegal in Poland?

Edit: BBC says far right so I'm guessing not.

It is and flying it was a provocative act which the minority of Russians did in order to anger the locals. This should have been punished. The law states that promoting Communism is a crime. Whether flying the flag is a crime is down to individual interpretation. However they were in fact punished for flying the Imperial flag, which is not racist or insulting to Poles. It shows a complete lack of understanding from FARE and other observers involved. It's as though extreme left flags are fine regardless of the connotations yet anything even slightly right wing or nationalist is offensive.

[ddidiodion]

It is and flying it was a provocative act which the minority of Russians did in order to anger the locals. This should have been punished. The law states that promoting Communism is a crime. Whether flying the flag is a crime is down to individual interpretation. However they were in fact punished for flying the Imperial flag, which is not racist or insulting to Poles. It shows a complete lack of understanding from FARE and other observers involved. It's as though extreme left flags are fine regardless of the connotations yet anything even slightly right wing or nationalist is offensive.

Well communism is extreme left and that clearly isn't fine.

Wikipedia tells me that the Empire flag has been used by far right groups since the 1990's (edit made before the start of the tournament, so not prompted by this) and far right groups normally have some racist undertones. Is there a legitimate reason for a Russian to fly that flag other than to signify his association with a far right group? If there is then I'm surprised the Russian Federation haven't pointed this out, which makes me suspect they accept FARE's version of events.

[Niebiescy]

Well communism is extreme left and that clearly isn't fine.

Wikipedia tells me that the Empire flag has been used by far right groups since the 1990's (edit made before the start of the tournament, so not prompted by this) and far right groups normally have some racist undertones. Is there a legitimate reason for a Russian to fly that flag other than to signify his association with a far right group? If there is then I'm surprised the Russian Federation haven't pointed this out, which makes me suspect they accept FARE's version of events.

It isn't the current Russian national flag so wouldn't be too mainstream. It is however flown in literally every Russian football ground at every game. Where ever they travel there are loads of them everywhere. Often more than national flags. There is no racist or fascist link to the flag at all. The three colours signify their empire with the three representing Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus. It isn't something that they started flying just for the Euros to wind people up. They have flown them for years at football. The flag is associated with the right, but that doesn't make it a racist or hate symbol. The Russians flying that flag is no worse than English fans singing Rule Britannia for example. It's essentially the same apart from one is a song and the other a flag.

[Dirty_ACE]

Well communism is extreme left and that clearly isn't fine.

Wikipedia tells me that the Empire flag has been used by far right groups since the 1990's (edit made before the start of the tournament, so not prompted by this) and far right groups normally have some racist undertones. Is there a legitimate reason for a Russian to fly that flag other than to signify his association with a far right group? If there is then I'm surprised the Russian Federation haven't pointed this out, which makes me suspect they accept FARE's version of events.

Extreme right groups (or left) fly the regular flag of Russia as well, so should anyone be a suspect if they do the same?

Here in U.S. the KKK fly the American flag at their rallies, so should anyone be suspected being a KKK member who is displaying an American flag?

The Russian imperial flag has lots of history behind it and is not something that was concocted simply for the use of a right wing group. The fact that they use it is their choice.

As I said, these so called observers are making huge assumptions based on essentially nothing.

[ddidiodion]

Have we got pictures of the exact far right banners they're referring to? Because it sounds like you're all guessing at what was presented as evidence which as the Suarez thing showed isn't very clever.

[Rafalution]

ерщыу ыщшддн кгыышфты фку фе ше фпфштю еру ырщгдв ыщке еруь ыудмуы щге кшпре щр ерун ырщгдв щр нуы

[Niebiescy]

This one that they have at the front of their march http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/250626_330447820365657_903625184_n.jpg

[ddidiodion]

This one that they have at the front of their march http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/250626_330447820365657_903625184_n.jpg

Is that the one that Fifa did them for or is that speculation on your part? (also what does the writing on the flag say?)

[Candre168]

It won't be carried out. They'll get a slap on the wrist in the end.

[Niebiescy]

Is that the one that Fifa did them for or is that speculation on your part? (also what does the writing on the flag say?)

That's the flag that they are being punished for yes. Not that particular one but for showing lots of the same colours. I am not sure what the writing says as I don't read Russian well but something about violence.

[ddidiodion]

That's the flag that they are being punished for yes. Not that particular one but for showing lots of the same colours. I am not sure what the writing says as I don't read Russian well but something about violence.

Can you provide me with a link to UEFA's confirmation? I can only find the link to the press release which states 'crowd disturbances' 'throwing of fireworks' and 'illicit banners', there is no reference to which illicit banners caused the offence. Also where is the confirmation that the spotters where "extreme left", "British who don't understand Eastern European history or politics" and "western" come from?

[Niebiescy]

Honestly wouldn't know what to Google to find the link. One I listed earlier shows FARE reporting them and no other banners. Not sure what I can find on the confirmation as it's hours since I read the stories on various groups and can't remember where I read what.

[Dirty_ACE]

That's the flag that they are being punished for yes. Not that particular one but for showing lots of the same colours. I am not sure what the writing says as I don't read Russian well but something about violence.

It says "Tula. Strength as one." However, it seems to be written in a sort of old Russian dialect. This looks no more than just a bunch of football supporters displaying their fervor and united support for a team/club.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_flags scroll down a bit to find the flag they used and you can read about its history. The fact that right wing groups have adopted it was their own choice.

They shouldn't even be getting a slap on the wrist. That would even be an insult because it's a punishment for nothing. People displaying something from their own countries past as a symbol of pride at a football tournament. Yeah, that's never been heard of. Shocking behavior.

[Niebiescy]

Sorry I mis-read the word as silia which means violence. Had problems reading the letters as the shapes are different to standard Russian Cyrillic which I can usually work out.

[ddidiodion]

They shouldn't even be getting a slap on the wrist. That would even be an insult because it's a punishment for nothing. People displaying something from their own countries past as a symbol of pride at a football tournament. Yeah, that's never been heard of. Shocking behavior.

You don't know that is all they were doing though, you're just guessing.

[Dirty_ACE]

You don't know that is all they were doing though, you're just guessing.

When flags are waved at football matches, what do you think this usually signifies? Probably support of those who are waving them for their team. Yes, it's a guess, I'm not a mind-reader, but that is a very common association attached to flag waving at football matches. However, implying specifically of some sort of criminal behavior being on display is entirely different. You simply can't go around, point at someone and start making accusations. It's up to the authorities to prove that those who are waving flags are indeed doing it for malicious purposes.

[ddidiodion]

When flags are waved at football matches, what do you think this usually signifies? Probably support of those who are waving them for their team. Yes, it's a guess, I'm not a mind-reader, but that is a very common association attached to flag waving at football matches. However, implying specifically of some sort of criminal behavior being on display is entirely different. You simply can't go around, point at someone and start making accusations. It's up to the authorities to prove that those who are waving flags are indeed doing it for malicious purposes.

UEFA don't need to prove it's criminal though, the criminal charges will be laid against individuals by the authorities. UEFA work on balance of probabilities, all they (the organisation asked by UEFA to monitor the problem) have to do is prove that it's more likely that they were waving the flags (whatever flags they were, I'm still not entirely convinced it was those flags in isolation) as part of a far-right display.

[Dirty_ACE]

UEFA don't need to prove it's criminal though, the criminal charges will be laid against individuals by the authorities. UEFA work on balance of probabilities, all they (the organisation asked by UEFA to monitor the problem) have to do is prove that it's more likely that they were waving the flags (whatever flags they were, I'm still not entirely convinced it was those flags in isolation) as part of a far-right display.

In order to dispense punishment, the flag waving would have to be proved illegal or wrong in some way. Whether or not actual law-enforcement is involved is not the issue. The authorities (UEFA in this case) have to have proof and not just assumptions. I can wave any flag I want while having a dark agenda behind it, just as I can simply be waving a flag just to wave a flag.

[ddidiodion]

In order to dispense punishment, the flag waving would have to be proved illegal or wrong in some way. Whether or not actual law-enforcement is involved is not the issue. The authorities (UEFA in this case) have to have proof and not just assumptions. I can wave any flag I want while having a dark agenda behind it, just as I can simply be waving a flag just to wave a flag.

See that just isn't the case, take the Suarez (and god forbid, please ensure this is the sole post) situation, there was no "proof" in that sense. The footballing authorities can fine, ban and suspend whoever they like within their own competition if they believe a rule has been breached. Illegality only matters in reference to their guidelines and they can interpret them as they like, they don't need to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

If the Polish police wanted to prosecute someone then yes they would need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt it was illegal. However if UEFA wants to punish someone they only need to believe that what they were doing was probably a breach of their code. In short if someone shows UEFA a picture of someone holding up a banner and UEFA believe it breaches their rules then they can do whatever they want to the RFU. It's essentially civil vs criminal and the standards are vastly different.

And since we have no idea the credentials of the people who presented the "evidence" or what the "evidence" actually was, all this is rather pointless until we find out.

[Dirty_ACE]

And since we have no idea the credentials of the people who presented the "evidence" or what the "evidence" actually was, all this is rather pointless until we find out.

Agree. Let's see what happens.

[jmr]

Seems harsh to potentially punish the players for this (yeah I know it's suspended). What the **** can the players do to stop it? Moron fans will be morons, even the Russian FA will have trouble stopping fans that are intent on causing trouble. I mean look at England, passports get taken away and known hooligans banned from traveling and so on but if they WANT to cause trouble abroad, they will. Make them play behind closed doors.

[Razzler]

How long is this 'suspended' for? If there's an incident during the next Quals is it enforced or has the time frame run out then?

[Jeroen Thijssen]

absolutely diabolical shocking decision if this gets carried on. I'm utterly disgusted.

[Jibby123]

Seems harsh to potentially punish the players for this (yeah I know it's suspended). What the **** can the players do to stop it? Moron fans will be morons, even the Russian FA will have trouble stopping fans that are intent on causing trouble. I mean look at England, passports get taken away and known hooligans banned from traveling and so on but if they WANT to cause trouble abroad, they will. Make them play behind closed doors.

Agreed, it always bemuses me what the hell a nation's FA can do about violence or racism of it's 'fans', especially when it happens in a land where that FA has zero jurisdiction.