Panorama : Euro 2012

[Niebiescy]

Well, in Warsaw most of centre was already closed because of subway construction, so they did'nt have problems...

Regarding Polish ultras and their nationalism; Niebiescy is talking ******** 'bout them not being racist at all; ultras of most Polish teams are openly racist and nationalist and extreme right wing political parites are closely associated with them. The thing is, ultras don't give a f*ck 'bout euro (they even have an action/protest, approbiately called "f*ck euro". they *really* think they're important, how pathetic), so they won't attend and disturb euro matches. Most of Poles are at least neutral towards other nationalities/skin colours/so on and the tournament is being held in big cities, so every foreigner should be as safe as in Milan, Prague or Berlin.

If you're going to Poland, I'll be extremaly happy to give you any needed tips, just PM me if needed

I didn't say that there aren't racists in these groups. Please read what I wrote again. What I said is that they are not Nazis. Most of the right wing ultras from Polish clubs are not fascists, but nationalists. That was the key to what I wrote. They are proud to be Polish and are against things like immigration, multiculturalism etc.. Same as lots of people throughout Europe. On the other hand they don't Seig Heil, they don't like Hitler and they don't typically hate Non-Europeans who are not in their country. They are just people who want Poland to remain Polish and not become like Western Europe. To be honest most ultras I know aren't really political at all. It's just the vocal minority who are. Most are just normal guys who want to go to the game and show their love for their club and don't really care about or want to talk about politics. Maybe they join in chants or songs but are typically being abusive because of the emotions of a big game rather than because they are hateful people. Polish ultras are just the same as normal Polish people you see everywhere. Some are good, some are bad. Some have moderate views and others don't. Some are religious others aren't. Some are violent and others aren't. Ultras are just the same as any group in society. It's just that when large groups of guys get together and go to a game against a common enemy they sometimes misbehave. It sounds to me like you have a really big problem with ultras groups and are not taking a balanced view on them at all. Your words towards them are very aggressive and negative and you ignore the positive aspects that they bring to a game and only want to write generalisations about a huge amount of people.

[boots]

lol check out the map of Europe they have at one point... It's a little bit wrong.

[Rikulec]

They also interviewed Saidi Ntibazonkiza, a black Cracovia player but didn't include it in their report because he said he wasn't an object of racism. He's also Muslim, but that wasn't a problem for the fans neither. Something's not right here, BBC.

[Niebiescy]

They also interviewed Saidi Ntibazonkiza, a black Cracovia player but didn't include it in their report because he said he wasn't an object of racism. He's also Muslim, but that wasn't a problem for the fans neither. Something's not right here, BBC.

Exactly. Also went to Polonia Warsaw for their march to the derby at Legia and nothing happened so didn't show it. Then on top of this painted Wisla's fans as hating Jews when Maor Melikson is probably their biggest hero and he's an Israeli Jew who claims to have never suffered from antisemitism. They forgot to mention this. Instead interviewed a random British reporter who's job was to find racism.

[Robbie S]

This is a quote from Oleg Voloshyn, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry spokesman.

"Nazi symbols can be seen at ... any match in England, but does it mean that fans should not come to London for the Olympics?"

Errrrrrrrrrr........

[IMT]

Having been a regular at Carrow Rd, for 30 years and having been to at least half of all English stadiums, I can categorically state I have never once seen a Nazi symbol in an English stadium.

[Powlay]

Exactly. Also went to Polonia Warsaw for their march to the derby at Legia and nothing happened so didn't show .

I must have missed the bit where they said every polish match is marred by racism, idiots and there is always trouble?You realise when you go out to gain footage for a documentary you often shoots hours of footage that amounts to nothing, you think documentaries should show this footage? Warped thinking to say the least

[Wasma]

similar warnings were given during the world cup in south africa. they have particularly high levels of rape and murder but it all went smoothly

[Niebiescy]

I must have missed the bit where they said every polish match is marred by racism, idiots and there is always trouble?You realise when you go out to gain footage for a documentary you often shoots hours of footage that amounts to nothing, you think documentaries should show this footage? Warped thinking to say the least

And you don't believe that an organisation has the obligation to provide a balanced view of any situation? You think it's not wrong to ignore footage where players tell the camera that they haven't been victims or racism? Or ignore footage of fans speaking to them who are not fitting with their stereotypes? Is it really relevant to show footage from a Third Division East regional league game that happened two years ago when they traveled to multiple games recently and had footage from them? Same as interviewing Sol Campbell who hadn't been there and seen it and was giving his opinion based on the selective film he was shown. By all means show problems that you find, but make the documentary balanced, not biased to an agenda. The BBC as a state organisation has a responsibility to be impartial even more than independent media companies.

[Rikulec]

It's really funny to hear Englishmen racism warnings after London riots. Maybe the report was made to turn our attention away from the Olympics?

[Powlay]

And you don't believe that an organisation has the obligation to provide a balanced view of any situation? You think it's not wrong to ignore footage where players tell the camera that they haven't been victims or racism? Or ignore footage of fans speaking to them who are not fitting with their stereotypes? Is it really relevant to show footage from a Third Division East regional league game that happened two years ago when they traveled to multiple games recently and had footage from them? Same as interviewing Sol Campbell who hadn't been there and seen it and was giving his opinion based on the selective film he was shown. By all means show problems that you find, but make the documentary balanced, not biased to an agenda. The BBC as a state organisation has a responsibility to be impartial even more than independent media companies.

Not even news organisations are impartial to bias, they dont give balance.

Just because players tell the camera something isnt happening doesnt mean its true! Look at the liverpool situation for that. Should a clown in a chelsea top saying 'i didnt intentionally knee him in the back' be used to balance out the John Terry is a big cheating racist scummer documentary im doing? Or his black team mate saying 'Terry isnt a racist, he gives his black slaves national minimum wage man'? You cannot always put stuff in to balance things out when the documentary is looking at racism etc in polish football.

Is there racism rife in polish football? yes

Is there anti semetism? yes

is there open nationalist/fashist/nazi symbolism? yes.

Its not a case of demonise Poland and the Ukraine, but wow pretend its not happening?

[Powlay]

It's really funny to hear Englishmen racism warnings after London riots. Maybe the report was made to turn our attention away from the Olympics?

Care to explain what the hell you are on about?

[ATW]

It's really funny to hear Englishmen racism warnings after London riots. Maybe the report was made to turn our attention away from the Olympics?

And I can't believe people are using the whole "yeah but x do it too" instead of seeing it for what it was - unacceptable in all forms.

And the internal minister of Ukraine could have given Comical Ali a run for his money. "They were not Nazi Salutes - they were just pointing to the opposing fans" .

There is racism is many walks of life, but what I have never seen in any country in Britain during football is fans from one side attacking their own fans​ because of their race or creed.

[chris79]

There is racism is many walks of life, but what I have never seen in any country in Britain during football is fans from one side attacking their own fans​ because of their race or creed.

Out of curiosity 9I haven't seen the BBC documentary) - have you seen it in Poland?

[ATW]

Not hat part was Ukraine. The documentary (as the thread title suggests wasn't about Poland) it was about Poland and Ukraine.

[chris79]

I know it was about both countries, I can read.

You were responding to a Polish user which made me think it was about Poland.

Still, what have you seen? Poland is pretty much "mono-racial" (not sure if it is the right term), there are not many immigrants here and I guess it is similar in Ukraine. So it is hard for me to believe ultras attacking someone of their own because of their race.

[Rikulec]

Is there racism rife in polish football?

No.

Is there anti semetism?

What you saw and what happens in Poland is about fans hating rival clubs, not Jews, so no.

is there open nationalist/fashist/nazi symbolism?

Show me an example.

[Powlay]

No.

What you saw and what happens in Poland is about fans hating rival clubs, not Jews, so no.

Show me an example.

death to jews is anti sematic?

[chris79]

Is there racism rife in polish football? yes

Is there anti semetism? yes

is there open nationalist/fashist/nazi symbolism? yes.

Hahaha this one is great! And I don't mean typos and poor orthography.

Even bearing in mind you cannot bring these issues down to simple yes/no questions (ie what is nationalism and why is it wrong?which nationalism is bad?what does it mean 'in Polish/ English football'?), all your answers are just not true.

[CaptainPlanet]

The Ross Kemp on Gangs episode in Poland scared the life out of me.

[Powlay]

Yay lets pull up typo's and spelling mistakes rather than actually look at the issues.

The programme rightly or wrongly was able through video to show that racism is very openly shown in grounds in both Ukraine and Poland. Was there anti semitic influence? Well, its hard to argue that people refering to jews being gased, killing the jew, death to the jew is not anti semitic. Lack of education doesnt make it right? It doesnt mean its not antisemitic? 'im wearing this tshirt because their club was created by the jew' its hard to hear that and think that somewhere in there that person has a brain.

Nationalism is fascism.One people, one nation all that lot. Racism falls into this quite snugly.

As ATW rightly points out, its no good puttings ones head into the sand, a stand all doing nazi/fascist salutes isnt a stand of people pointing at the opposition.

A man claiming that nazi symbols being shown at every premier league game (despite NOT evidence being shown, where as biased asit is the panorama programme shows a lot) is again head in sand, its happening elsewhere (despite it not where he claims) so why pick on us, look at them look at them.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Utter utter nonsense this discussion. I'm sure there's a bunch of individuals in England as well that hate Jews. Therefore English is racist country. In fact, you still hear 'those ****ing Pakis' on a general basis. STOP THE OLYMPICS NOW!!!!

Yes, off course there are idiot racists in the Ukraine and in Poland. There might even be slightly more than in Western European countries. You must not forget that

a) It's not that long since the switch from communism to capitalism

b) With these nations being developing nations, they now also for the first time seee a rise in immigration. This is first generation immigration. We are better to compare that to the Western European countries in the 60s and 70s than compare it to today. In fact, I remember quite vividly that we had an extreme right party in Holland during the 80s.

We have regular chants in Dutch football stadiums:

"Hamas Hamas, Joden aan het Gas"

Hamas Hamas, put the Jews to the gas.

or elsewhere - Rotterdam kankerstad, in de oorlog lag je plat -> Rotterdam, city of cancer* - you were bombed flat in the war.

* the swear using cancer is the worst swear in Dutch.

There are also t-shirts of people (Ajax-supporters) that will depict airplanes dropping bombs on Rotterdam. Sometimes with Swastikkas on there.

That doesn't in actuality mean these people are pure racists. And even if they are, that doesn't mean they will physically do anything.

Oh, we don't generally wear Lonsdale clothing in Holland. It's consider racist. Obviously stupid - but some nutters established that Lonsdale is an abbreviation for:

Laat

Ons

Nederlanders

Samen

De

Allochtoon

Langzaam

Elimineren

Let us Dutch together slowly eliminate the immigrant.

So, I was wearing a "Lonsdale loves all colours" shirt out of protest and I got labelled a racist

This whole stuff really all needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Rikulec]

The antisemitism thing, well, let's take Kraków as an example. There are two clubs which are fierce rivals, Wisła and Cracovia. The second of them has a huge ultras group which goes by the name of Jude Gang. Could you imagine a better opportunity to insult your rival (not the Jews) by bringing this up? Wisła fans aren't antisemitic at all, their best player is Jewish and there are no issues with that. The same goes with Łódź and many other cities.

[chris79]

Ok, I was hoping to avoid serious discussion in this issue, but I will tell you what I think later. For now - obviously there is a problem with racism and antisemistism among some ultras and these ultras are often prominent ones that have a huge influence on the rest, noone sane would deny that.

Problem is, all you know is a biased short TV documentary made by people (as someone pointed before) who came here to make a film about racism, so it was obvious what they were going to come out with had to be a picture showing racism. Me and other Polish users (can I still use "P" instead of "p" for Poland and Polish, please?) have been going to matches here almost every week for years. We're more subjective because of that, surely, but we have slightly more knowledge than you.

For me the most important thing that comes from reading comments here and in other places is how people are easily manipulated, how easy for TV or papers it is to create opinions. "Wag the dog" was such a great and underestimated movie!

Oh, and speaking of lack of education and ignorance:

Nationalism is fascism.One people, one nation all that lot. Racism falls into this quite snugly.

This sort of knowledge of political doctrines wouldn't let you pass a final school exam, not to mention a university exam on the matter.

[Niebiescy]

Not even news organisations are impartial to bias, they dont give balance.

Just because players tell the camera something isnt happening doesnt mean its true! Look at the liverpool situation for that. Should a clown in a chelsea top saying 'i didnt intentionally knee him in the back' be used to balance out the John Terry is a big cheating racist scummer documentary im doing? Or his black team mate saying 'Terry isnt a racist, he gives his black slaves national minimum wage man'? You cannot always put stuff in to balance things out when the documentary is looking at racism etc in polish football.

Is there racism rife in polish football? yes

Is there anti semetism? yes

is there open nationalist/fashist/nazi symbolism? yes.

Its not a case of demonise Poland and the Ukraine, but wow pretend its not happening?

It isn't rife at all. You barely ever see racist banners at Polish football grounds. How many have you actually been to? At my club Ruch Chorzow I have never seen a racist banner or antisemitic banner. We are not some sort of anti-fascist club. It's just typical of normal clubs in Poland. I have been to plenty of other stadiums too and never seen it in person. It's very rare. In most people don't care enough about politics to take these kinds of symbols regardless of what their beliefs may be. Of course there are cases where it has happened but it isn't common. The BBC went into Lodz to find antisemitism because it is the city in the whole of Poland that everyone know is famous for it. Just like if you want to find murdering idiots who claim to be football fans then Krakow is the only place to go. Legia on the other hand are the one club known most for hardcore Polish nationalism.

The fact is that if you look hard you can find these things for sure, but they are in very few grounds. This is why the BBC had to use things such as film from two years ago which is before the Polish FA began clamping down on what people took to games. It's also why they had to use film from a Third Division East game because you barely ever see it at a higher level. They showed footage from two games that actually took place when they were there. They were two of the most volatile rivalries in the whole country. It would be like labeling English fans as being bad if they filmed Chelsea fans saying antisemitic remarks at a Spurs game and please don't even try and deny that they sing songs about Jews being gassed because of Spurs' label of being a Jewish club.

Also because you can't believe players when they claim not to have been abused how can you believe those who claim to have been abused? It's a two-way street. I am not denying that they probably have been abused a couple of times. On the other hand it's very possible that others haven't ever suffered it.

Are there occasionally racist incidents in Polish football? Yes

Is there antisemitism in some towns? Yes. Do the fans actually do this out of hatred towards Jews? No.

On your last point please, please, please tell me where there was open Nazi symbolism. Nationalist symbolism was clear in Warsaw around Legia's stadium. That is very different to Nazism, which they openly hate/detest.

Polish football is no worse than Spanish football for racism. I bet that seeing racist banners in Spanish grounds and monkey chanting is probably more common than in Poland. The difference is that very few Brits have ever been to a Polish match and therefore have no idea and can be easily duped by a documentary.

[Powlay]

This sort of knowledge of political doctrines wouldn't let you pass a final school exam, not to mention a university exam on the matter.

last time i checked this wasnt any sort of exam.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I always get a tad annoyed when the English (British) start discussing this matter. Traditionally the English (British) aren't the most inviting and liberal people - I know that this is a generalisation but still. You lot still think you own the world, stop thinking you're a cheap excuse for America. The industrial revolution is much longer gone. Just because some debatable TV show shows very jaded footage doesn't mean it's true. Would you all believe it if it was in The Sun? (Sadly a lot of people wanna hear it)

What is the problem with Poland and the Ukraine? Are a lot of English (British) still gutted that they didn't get the World Cup just because you think you invented it and some people seem to even think England is the best in the world? Is it some kind of inferiority complex that ye need to come over with?

If you haven't been to Poland or similar countries, I think the best idea is just to gain some more experience and not to judge things you get from hearsay or what you think it's right.

Hey, I'll be honest - I had a similar sombre PREJUDICED view on Russia prior to when I went there, but most visions that the Dutch media perceived couldn't be further from the truth.

There, salt in the wounds

[chris79]

last time i checked this wasnt any sort of exam.

Well once you make such definite statements about things you clearly have little idea about (and you base your opinions on this ignorance) it is only fair to point out that you are simply wrong. And since the issue discussed is history of political doctrines, exams come to mind. But it was just a way of telling you you are wrong.

[Powlay]

I always get a tad annoyed when the English (British) start discussing this matter. yada yada yada, mumble mumble mumble, miss the point point point.

There, salt in the wounds

As i said earlier its not like Poland or the Ukraine are being deamonised by people. (maybe by the programme but not everyone believes thats totally the situation)

As you rightly said they are at a point the UK probably was at a few decades ago, but people can sit here and admit their family members, their relations and others were racists, were biggots, were nationalists and they were all wrong with their actions and thinking. Its not about looking down on others its just simply about recognising the issues.

Ive been to Poland, been to other countries, heard a Boro player being called a N****r by a slovenian in general conversation. Its a lack of education, a lack of exposure maybe? When i look at my families past and i remember some of the terms used its definatly a lack of exposure. Coming in a time where it was the norm to differenciate because of someones skin colour.

I dont think ive said take the Euro's away, my main argument is that people said this kind of documentary could be made anywhere, it couldnt. In England these things are probably still about, but you do no see them an any level of football match.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

As i said earlier its not like Poland or the Ukraine are being deamonised by people. (maybe by the programme but not everyone believes thats totally the situation)

As you rightly said they are at a point the UK probably was at a few decades ago, but people can sit here and admit their family members, their relations and others were racists, were biggots, were nationalists and they were all wrong with their actions and thinking. Its not about looking down on others its just simply about recognising the issues.

Ive been to Poland, been to other countries, heard a Boro player being called a N****r by a slovenian in general conversation. Its a lack of education, a lack of exposure maybe? When i look at my families past and i remember some of the terms used its definatly a lack of exposure. Coming in a time where it was the norm to differenciate because of someones skin colour.

I dont think ive said take the Euro's away, my main argument is that people said this kind of documentary could be made anywhere, it couldnt. In England these things are probably still about, but you do no see them an any level of football match.

Blablablabla.... (We're actually mostly in agreement) - I think the main difference is that it doesn't get tolerated anymore in England. I'm sure there's a large amount of right wing skinhead football supporters that we be all for kicking out the foreigners. But the thing is, if they hang up a potentially racist flag - then they'll get a stadium ban.. possibly even a prison sentence. I guess they don't really care about it in Poland?

And then, yeah - I saw a facist flag in a photo - but that could be just one person. Maybe a few. Who knows? If it's just a few then what's the big deal anyway?

I'm sure there's still racism in England. Hell, I live in a neighbourhood that's considered black - and I see black people on Twitter asking themselves why is this turning into such a white neighbourhood and can't we all f off to central London.

[Crazy_T]

there is loads of racism in england, just not at football games because as you say, it is not tolerated.

[chris79]

Just to add to what Reddiablo and Rikulec just said.

1. People say (or are taught esp in Western culture) racism and antisemitism are purely bad and are universal so they are universally wrong. I disagree. Hate, violence, cult of aggression, oppression of the minority are universally wrong. They can take a form of racism, they can appear in a form of class oppression (fe what Stalin did in Ukraine in the 1930s, the Great Famine). Racism or antisemitism can have different cultural backgrounds, and the same words can have totally different meanings in different cultures. Without this knowledge it is really hard to judge people. The best example is what Rikulec said about Cracovia supporters calling themselves Jew Gang.

2. Having said that, in any circumstance what is universally seen as racism is wrong, but the problem here is the scale and circumstances. To simplify: is what these ultras are saying are just words or does it affect anyone? If it a general problem for all clubs, most matches or separate incidents? If you watch a TV documentary and not ask yourself these questions it means you are open to manipulation on any subject.

3. Not going to offend anyone, but from what I read most users here have little knowledge about history of Poland and Ukraine, especially in 20th century. This is fine, most Polish people know little about UK's recent history so probably wouldn't understand problems that are there. Anyway, fascist symbolism is almost never present in Poland, even in extreme groups, mostly down to history. To the contrary, a Polish nationalist will most likely be anti-nazi and will see Germany and Russia and not Jews as the main threat. It may be different in Ukraine, cause of their WWII history when some of them saw a chance for independence by helping Hitler fight the Soviets (and Polish soldiers!). Generalisations that nationalistic groups are fascist are simply ignorant.

4. I never saw antisemitic or racist symbols, flags etc at any Slask Wroclaw game I have attended, and believe me there were a lot of them from deep down in 3rd division to recently winning the title (how did you like it, Niebiescy? ). Never saw it on TV. Maybe other cities/clubs have such problems, from what I know there were just single incidents, you could maybe compare it to let's say captain of a national team being a racist. Or maybe not. Every incident is a problem, every thrown banana is a disgrace. But it doesn't mean someone who tells this is what happens on regular basis isn't a liar and a poor journalist.

5. There is racism problem, and in some parts a very serious one in Poland. But it is among some groups of ultras. there is none among players, managers, club owners and directors. Is it a problem 'in Polish football'? Case of definition of 'Polish football'.

6. Every country has its problems. Also, what would be a national scandal in England is a silently accepted norm in Poland or Holland. Not because of UK having a higher level of civilisation, just culture, history of football rivalries being different, fe using the word 'Jew' as a way to offend someone - it is silly and surely offends Jewish people, but anyone with a brain can surely see the difference between it and actually attacking 'real' Jews?

Is shouting about doing something bad to 'Jews' at someone who calls himself "a Jew" in a context in which everyone knows there is no ethnic/racial background worse than booing Aaron Ramsey just because your club's player broke his leg a few years ago? First is just an stupid way of expressing your aggression towards rival fans, the latter, well, just being a Stoke City fan from what I heard.

7. The most important thing here is what the hell does it all have to do with Euro? There are thousands if not millions of tourists visiting Poland every year, I work in the centre of Wroclaw and always see Spanish, English or American tourists wandering around and amazingly noone attacks them. As Niebiescy explained the ultras don't give a **** about Euro and visiting fans and players. It is not like all the people shown in this great documentary got the tickets for the games. firstly not many of them wanted to be there and secondly, there was a draw, did you know?

[chris79]

But the thing is, if they hang up a potentially racist flag - then they'll get a stadium ban.. possibly even a prison sentence. I guess they don't really care about it in Poland?

it is a criminal offence in Poland, but the problem (technical one) lies in identifying the individuals, that's why I don't recall reading about someone being punished. However, for any political or racist or other inappropriate flags, symbols etc FA put financial penalties on clubs.

[champa]

I think some people are missing the point - there were racist beatings, racist chants, Nazi salutes and antisemitic chants IN THE ACTUAL STADIUM of clubs in the TOP LEAGUE of Ukraine. This doesn't happen in the Premier League, end of. It doesn't matter if other countries USED to be like that, the fact is that we are in 2012 and a lot of countries have made immense progress in these areas. The fact that the Euros are about to take place in Ukraine is a shambles and disgraceful, and shows the genuine lack of leadership from UEFA when it comes to tackling racism/antisemitic activities.

[chris79]

Oh, and what Powlay said about 'lack of exposure' is a very good point.

As I said, Polish is mono-racial. There are a few black people, mostly students, sportsmen, some people who stayed here after studying and some who are in mixed couples (I think mostly pairs who met in the UK and decided to settle in Poland). But generally a black person is still a rarity, so this whole racism is often "theoretical". and then a black player signs for a given club, so there is a chance for these guys to finally show how much they love the white race and so on.

Thing is, this is a problem present in a very specific and very small (compared to entire society) group. IMO you cannot even say if Polish society is racist or not as it hasn't been 'exposed' to a larger number of people of different race. And this is exactly why racism means something totally different here than in England.

Also, did you know we have a black (Nigerian born IIRC) MP?

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I think some people are missing the point - there were racist beatings, racist chants, Nazi salutes and antisemitic chants IN THE ACTUAL STADIUM of clubs in the TOP LEAGUE of Ukraine. This doesn't happen in the Premier League, end of. It doesn't matter if other countries USED to be like that, the fact is that we are in 2012 and a lot of countries have made immense progress in these areas. The fact that the Euros are about to take place in Ukraine is a shambles and disgraceful, and shows the genuine lack of leadership from UEFA when it comes to tackling racism/antisemitic activities.

Newsflash. Some of these happen in Holland. It's probably happened in England too previously. And I'm not 100% sure that it NEVER happens anymore at all. Surely a borderline song will come on here and there towards a black player. Yes it sucks, but hopefully someday it will end everywhere. Then again, with players like Joey Barton and a John Terry not being particular role models - I'm not sure what's worse...

Now I'd personally appreciate it if you could be more open-minded and allow for Poland and Ukraine to have a fantastic Euros - which without doubt will be a nice spark for those nations. A fresher less prejudiced look on the matter would be great!

edit: Hey wait a minute: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/nine-held-over-racist-football-chants-6294266.html

January 2012 - in England of all places!

and also:

Crawley Town player Dean Howell was called a "golliwog" twice by an elderly Gillingham supporter, in March 2012.

Also in March 2012, a 29 year old Arsenal fan was arrested after being caught racially abusing Newcastle United player Cheik Tiote by SkySports cameras.

STOP THE OLYMPICS! EXCLUDE ALL ENGLISH TEAMS FROM THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE!!! :mad:

[Citizen Sandman]

i believe euro 2012 with pass without too much controversy

[eldeniro]

You could make a documentary about why England shouldn't get the Olympics and have footage of the many EDL marches that take place, the riots all over England and the fact that the former English national team captain is up in court for racism charges. Then you could film the poorest areas of England where there's lots of poverty and a high crime rate and gang violence and yada yada yada but the Olympics will still be held in London and will probably be problem free the same way the Euros will and no sensationalist nonsense is going to change that.

[football_master_94]

There have still been cases of racism in English football (ie. in the stands) this season, so it's present everywhere and if you look hard enough and sample hotspots where you're likely to find such issues, hey presto you find cases of racism etc.

[Rhino]

I've not seen the documentary, but I'd be interested to know whether or not people are challenging the perceived level of prevalence of the behaviour shown within. That is to say, the documentary certainly suggested that the type of behaviour shown was in common occurrence in Poland and Ukraine, but do people feel that is an accurate reflection?

[chris79]

I've not seen the documentary, but I'd be interested to know whether or not people are challenging the perceived level of prevalence of the behaviour shown within. That is to say, the documentary certainly suggested that the type of behaviour shown was in common occurrence in Poland and Ukraine, but do people feel that is an accurate reflection?

I can only speak about Poland.

It depends what people you are referring to.

If you're asking about UK's reception of the documentary, I think this thread shows 50/50 reaction, but you have to take into account that most regular users here are above average intellectual level of the society (any, not only British society) so general reception is probably usually like 'how could they give the tournament to fascists and animals' which pretty much was the aim of the authors I believe. Luckily this kind of audience totally forgets their 'opinions' once the issue is of front pages/TV news. In 6 months they'll be shown a Polish policemen saving a child from drowning in a river or a new highway being built and will start to think we're such a great country.

If you ask about what people in Poland believe, well people who regularly go to games don't have to believe anything they just now how it really is.

[Niebiescy]

Oh, and what Powlay said about 'lack of exposure' is a very good point.

As I said, Polish is mono-racial. There are a few black people, mostly students, sportsmen, some people who stayed here after studying and some who are in mixed couples (I think mostly pairs who met in the UK and decided to settle in Poland). But generally a black person is still a rarity, so this whole racism is often "theoretical". and then a black player signs for a given club, so there is a chance for these guys to finally show how much they love the white race and so on.

Thing is, this is a problem present in a very specific and very small (compared to entire society) group. IMO you cannot even say if Polish society is racist or not as it hasn't been 'exposed' to a larger number of people of different race. And this is exactly why racism means something totally different here than in England.

Also, did you know we have a black (Nigerian born IIRC) MP?

Very good post. And yes he is Nigerian. Ironically voted into a seat in Lodz, the city that the BBC tried to paint as the most antisemitic and racist of all those on the Polish part of the documentary.

I think that the definition of racism is the key to this part of the argument. As I tried to explain before Polish people do not hate those of different races and cultures. They are actually very respectful towards them. I would say that in general the people reject the idea of a largely multicultural Poland and are extremely proud of their country and nationality. In the UK people would maybe label you as racist for having these beliefs (due to political correctness), which is ridiculous because this has nothing to do with discrimination or hatred. In most of the world it is completely normal. Nations like Japan are good examples of successful mono-cultural societies this that are accepted by the world. The fact is that Poles haven't had control of their own nation for very long and lots fear losing it again and see different threats.

There are a few reasons for nationalism in Poland:

When you have had a history (in your lifetime) as terrible as lots of Polish people alive today this is very understandable and people in the UK could never come close to understanding what it was actually like. Poland in recent history has suffered the problems with Nazi and then even worse Communist control. During these periods people from other nations came and systematically killed people, removed the national identity, took away freedom of speech, movement, civil liberty etc... The nation's economy was destroyed, whole cities were destroyed (both by bombing and mass murder), people were oppressed, controlled and left to suffer. Even simple things like buying food to eat were difficult.

Secondly Poland also had a lot of territory stolen and given to other nations. The Western part of the Ukraine around Lvov and also parts of what is now Western Belarus are a good example of this. Poland was previously far larger than it is now and lots of Poles were forced to leave their lands and re-locate because the Russians took this land when they invaded during World War II and then claimed it as part of the USSR. This is also another reason why people in Western Ukraine tend to be more right wing and nationalist than in the East.

Third is the simple lack of exposure. Polish people go abroad on holiday or maybe live abroad and see people of different cultures. I think that in these situations they are very respectful. On the other hand those who do not live in towns that attract tourists and do not have money to travel very rarely encounter any foreigners, let alone foreigners of non-white ethnicity. None of the bordering nations have significant non-white populations apart from Germany and the East Germany parts near the border are some of the whitest places in Germany with the exception of maybe Berlin. Because people here don't encounter non-whites regularly they are not used to using terminology that these ethnic groups like to hear. Instead they use what ever they have traditionally said. Maybe people will use terms like negro or chocolate to describe a black person. This isn't them trying to offend them. This is the people not understanding cultural sensitivity and correct terminologies. It's just like how people use the term Jew at football. They do not hate Jews. They are just ignorant and use the term in this negative context without thinking about what people feel when they hear it. The same way that fans call themselves Jews when they are not. It's stupid, but not racist.

I have friends from Wroclaw and know the city well. As Chris said there are foreigners EVERYWHERE. They are far more noticeable than in Krakow even from my experience. I was there last season when Slask played Lechia with a friend. The atmosphere was very happy and celebratory. There were people drinking beers everywhere and singing and the cops allowed it because there was no trouble. There were no songs about Jews or racist/antisemitic flags or banners. My experience of visiting there with foreign friends is that the people are very friendly and open to foreigners because they are used to seeing them and are therefore more confident and happier around them. When I go to Katowice, Chorzow or Piekary with foreign friends everyone looks and people are more closed around them. This isn't xenophobia or racism. They just aren't used to seeing foreigners, very few people speak English and they will stare because it's not normal for them. It's how it is all over Poland just like it is in different Silesian towns. If you go to the tourist towns like where the Euros will take place people will be confident and friendly to you. If you go to towns where foreigners don't visit people won't know how to react to you. You may even feel threatened from them starring at you. They are however not being unfriendly, they are just surprised that a foreigner speaking a strange language is in their town, especially with middle aged or older people.

Final point on fans...

As I said before ultras won't be attending the Euros because first of all they are not interested in going to a game where they'd be expected to sit and watch. Secondly they have been priced out of the stadiums. A ticket to a normal Polish league game is around 20PLN. As you can see the tickets to the Euros are significantly more expensive and out of most working class people's budgets http://pl.uefa.com/uefa/mediaservices/mediareleases/newsid=1593357.html

Also hooligans have no interest in fighting foreign fans. In Poland the hooligans have very strict rules and will not attack normal people even at club games. They will make agreements to meet with other hooligans from rival clubs or nations. For example against England last time there was trouble they gave the English hooligans and map of where to meet them and the English followed it to a park. They had a fight here away from normal people, cops etc until they eventually arrived. I promise that Polish hooligans will not attack you. Do not be afraid!

[pl-fikander]

Your words towards them are very aggressive and negative and you ignore the positive aspects that they bring to a game and only want to write generalisations about a huge amount of people.

Well, because I don't think they bring any positive aspects to matches. All they can do is make idiotic banners urelated to the match, sing idiotic chants abusing other clubs and make those idiotic pyro shows.

Out of curiosity 9I haven't seen the BBC documentary) - have you seen it in Poland?

I have seen ultras attacking fans of their own club, just because they decided to attend the match despite some idiotic (I love this word ) ultras boycott.

I don't care whether Polish ultras are openly racist or "just" xenophobic and nationalist; they are disgusting and their right wing ideology is sick; that's why I'm not attending any Polish football matches; I don't want be insulted by a bunch of idiots who want to have monopoly for their views and ideas of "supporting" their club. That said, I don't think it will affect Euro in any way - as said before, they are not interested in Euro, they are only very small minority of Polish society (and minority of football fans, although the most vocal one).

[Crazy_T]

My experience of visiting there with foreign friends is that the people are very friendly and open to foreigners because they are used to seeing them and are therefore more confident and happier around them. When I go to Katowice, Chorzow or Piekary with foreign friends everyone looks and people are more closed around them. This isn't xenophobia or racism. They just aren't used to seeing foreigners, very few people speak English and they will stare because it's not normal for them. It's how it is all over Poland just like it is in different Silesian towns. If you go to the tourist towns like where the Euros will take place people will be confident and friendly to you. If you go to towns where foreigners don't visit people won't know how to react to you. You may even feel threatened from them starring at you. They are however not being unfriendly, they are just surprised that a foreigner speaking a strange language is in their town, especially with middle aged or older people.

ha, this is exactly how I felt in kielce. I mean I felt pretty uncomfortable queueing for tickets there in a massive group and that, but never felt threatened. incidentally, I didn't see any banners or violence there either. the one guy we did manage to speak to actually helped us get home (back to krakow) as you say, it's a different story in places like krakow, polish people are very open and friendly in general, especially the women!

[andyinuk]

I am not sure if we (the British fans) can claim to be all squeaky clean really. I am Chinese and my missus is Japanese. We travel to see Leeds away a lot, and while we were never attacked physically, we still get comments, gestures, and funny noises made to us.

[Niebiescy]

Well, because I don't think they bring any positive aspects to matches. All they can do is make idiotic banners urelated to the match, sing idiotic chants abusing other clubs and make those idiotic pyro shows.

I have seen ultras attacking fans of their own club, just because they decided to attend the match despite some idiotic (I love this word ) ultras boycott.

I don't care whether Polish ultras are openly racist or "just" xenophobic and nationalist; they are disgusting and their right wing ideology is sick; that's why I'm not attending any Polish football matches; I don't want be insulted by a bunch of idiots who want to have monopoly for their views and ideas of "supporting" their club. That said, I don't think it will affect Euro in any way - as said before, they are not interested in Euro, they are only very small minority of Polish society (and minority of football fans, although the most vocal one).

It sounds to me that you are referring to Legia Ultras rather than Ultras in general. Most groups in Poland don't really display anything political apart from maybe the odd guy bringing some banner or scarf. Sure fans insult each-other when they play rival clubs but that happens in every country in the world. It's normal.

[Lermon]

The Ukraine Eurovision entry was black..

[Niebiescy]

ha, this is exactly how I felt in kielce. I mean I felt pretty uncomfortable queueing for tickets there in a massive group and that, but never felt threatened. incidentally, I didn't see any banners or violence there either. the one guy we did manage to speak to actually helped us get home (back to krakow) as you say, it's a different story in places like krakow, polish people are very open and friendly in general, especially the women!

In the major tourist cities Polish women are a bit more relaxed and "friendly", but in smaller towns they can be extremely conservative because it's such a traditional society. Some are almost scared to talk to or look at strange men for fear of being judged or going against the or traditions rules. It's quite funny actually when you can go a few miles away to the Czech border and see the most liberal women in the world. We like to sit in a bar or cafe on the main street in Katowice and when women walk part try and make them smile back at us. It's so funny because most look away because they don't know what to do. Then you cross the border and the Czechs undress you with their eyes. It's so funny. Beauty of different cultures bordering eachother

[Müller1469564937]

Racism is rife everywhere. The only reason Ukraine and Poland are getting so much attention is because they're hosting the Euro's. Once they're finished, you'll never hear about them again.

[Niebiescy]

The Ukraine Eurovision entry was black..

Also a transvestite lol (seriously)