Panorama : Euro 2012

[dking]

I didn't say that there aren't racists in these groups. Please read what I wrote again. What I said is that they are not Nazis. Most of the right wing ultras from Polish clubs are not fascists, but nationalists. That was the key to what I wrote. They are proud to be Polish and are against things like immigration, multiculturalism etc.. Same as lots of people throughout Europe. On the other hand they don't Seig Heil, they don't like Hitler and they don't typically hate Non-Europeans who are not in their country. They are just people who want Poland to remain Polish and not become like Western Europe. To be honest most ultras I know aren't really political at all. It's just the vocal minority who are. Most are just normal guys who want to go to the game and show their love for their club and don't really care about or want to talk about politics. Maybe they join in chants or songs but are typically being abusive because of the emotions of a big game rather than because they are hateful people. Polish ultras are just the same as normal Polish people you see everywhere. Some are good, some are bad. Some have moderate views and others don't. Some are religious others aren't. Some are violent and others aren't. Ultras are just the same as any group in society. It's just that when large groups of guys get together and go to a game against a common enemy they sometimes misbehave. It sounds to me like you have a really big problem with ultras groups and are not taking a balanced view on them at all. Your words towards them are very aggressive and negative and you ignore the positive aspects that they bring to a game and only want to write generalisations about a huge amount of people.

So what you basically just spouted was - "They're not so bad. They only join in racist, neo nazi songs, for fun, and they only hate brown people that are actually living in the country. They're just like any other group of guys, having a laugh".

Sorry if I can't "take a balanced view" on this, but racist scum are racist scum, no matter how much you try to 'polish' that ****ing turd.

Let me guess, you're Polish, right?

I'm litteraly aghast at your neolithic, backwards mentality. Get back in your ****ing cave.

[Müller1469564937]

Let me guess, you're Polish, right?

I'm litteraly aghast at your neolithic, backwards mentality. Get back in your ****ing cave.

Complains about racism and then makes a general racist remark himself. :D

Well played, you tw@.

[Dan_rm]

I've not seen this BBC "documentary", but some people . I guess the ones coming out with this stuff are the people that think Bosnia is still an inhospitable warzone.

[dking]

Complains about racism and then makes a general racist remark himself. :D

Well played, you tw@.

How is me guessing, then asking where he is from, racist?

But way to go on completely ignoring anything important in the post. Well played yourself

[Niebiescy]

So what you basically just spouted was - "They're not so bad. They only join in racist, neo nazi songs, for fun, and they only hate brown people that are actually living in the country. They're just like any other group of guys, having a laugh".

Sorry if I can't "take a balanced view" on this, but racist scum are racist scum, no matter how much you try to 'polish' that ****ing turd.

Let me guess, you're Polish, right?

I'm litteraly aghast at your neolithic, backwards mentality. Get back in your ****ing cave.

But when did the Polish fans actually sing a Neo Nazi song?

I am half England half Polish so can see this from a balanced point of view knowing both nations so well.

[Müller1469564937]

How is me guessing, then asking where he is from, racist?

Let me guess, you're Polish, right?

I'm litteraly aghast at your neolithic, backwards mentality. Get back in your ****ing cave.

[dking]

Semantics.

A racist is a racist, and your post makes you sound like you symapthise with them, or that they're somehow being persecuted, and/or misunderstood.

It's so ****ing backwards it's scary.

[Rob1981]

tbf there is a world of difference between a racist and a nationalist

[dking]

So now you're putting two and two together and getting five. I'm guessing math/English isn't your forte.

Again though, way to go on avoiding anything important in the post, you've out done yourself.

[dking]

tbf there is a world of difference between a racist and a nationalist

The difference being that a nationalist only hates brown people that are in his country? I'm curious as to how they feel about white foreigners but at a guess I'd say they're, on the whole, a lot more accepted.

[Müller1469564937]

The difference being that a nationalist only hates brown people that are in his country? I'm curious as to how they feel about white foreigners but at a guess I'd say they're, on the whole, a lot more accepted.

Same as anywhere else that's predominantly white then? :confused:

I don't get your point.

[Rob1981]

tbf there is a world of difference between a racist and a nationalist

The difference being that a nationalist only hates brown people that are in his country? I'm curious as to how they feel about white foreigners but at a guess I'd say they're, on the whole, a lot more accepted.

Are you for real?

[Niebiescy]

Semantics.

A racist is a racist, and your post makes you sound like you symapthise with them, or that they're somehow being persecuted, and/or misunderstood.

It's so ****ing backwards it's scary.

In my experience British extreme leftists are just as aggressive and have as much hatred in them as these people that they attack as you are showing here. You yourself are showing this through your behavior in this thread and in the bigoted way that you talk about Polish people. For people like you it's OK though isn't it because they are Europeans like yourself so your prejudices do not qualify as racist in your small mind?

Have you ever considered that maybe not everyone in the whole world shares your opinions on immigration and multiculturalism? Does everyone who disagrees with you have to be an evil racist? I am not saying whether I agree or disagree with people's beliefs as it isn't relevant to this discussion. The discussion is about the Euros and not myself. But to be clear I do not vote for extremist parties or attend extremist rallies. I vote for a mainstream party and consider myself to have normal opinions and beliefs.

There is a big difference between nationalism and a racist as I've said a million times already and don't need to go over again. There is nothing racist about people not wanting immigration. These labels are just something that people who aren't capable of having an intelligent debate use to describe people in order to feel superior when in fact they are no better themselves. People have the right to make their own decisions and develop their own beliefs without people like yourself trying to force things upon them and insult them in such a condescending manner.

[Niebiescy]

The difference being that a nationalist only hates brown people that are in his country? I'm curious as to how they feel about white foreigners but at a guess I'd say they're, on the whole, a lot more accepted.

I thought you were claiming that they are Nazis? If they are then they must hate Jews and Slavs too. Both of them are white skinned. Oh yeah, they can't kill themselves can they? Pretty hard to be a Nazi when you are Slavic and therefore one of the ethnic groups that were killed by them.

[dking]

Same as anywhere else that's predominantly white then? :confused:

I don't get your point.

My point is that no matter how people try and dress up the difference between a nationalist and a racist, it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only - skin colour. It's not about being anti foreign, it's about being anti brown.

[dking]

Are you for real?

Want to dress it up for me?

[Jibby123]

My point is that no matter how people try and dress up the difference between a nationalist and a racist, it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only - skin colour. It's not about being anti foreign, it's about being anti brown.

So is the, take for example...Irish Nationalist movement racist and anti-brown then??

[Niebiescy]

My point is that no matter how people try and dress up the difference between a nationalist and a racist, it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only - skin colour. It's not about being anti foreign, it's about being anti brown.

I think you'll find that it's actually about keeping Poland Polish and being proud of being Polish. Poland had been destroyed for over half a century by white foreign invaders. The people now just want their own country for their own people without foreign interference regardless of race. They are proud to be Polish and that's as far as it goes. What's wrong with leaving Poland to be Polish?

[dking]

So is the, take for example...Irish Nationalist movement racist and anti-brown then??

I know of an Irish nationalist party that are anti-brown. An extremely raci...sorry, nationalistic organisation. I couldn't comment about the Irish Nationalst movement because I don't know them.

Can you name some English nationalist parties that claim to be against foreigners, and multi culturilsm, that aren't against that at all, they just hate brown people?

Let me ask you this - When does it stop being nationalistic and turn to racism? What happens when the nationals get there way and decide that multi cultarlism no longer works, what do they do with all those foreigners? Where do they go? How are they going to be dealt with? Look back through history and you will see how these people get dealt with.

[dking]

I think you'll find that it's actually about keeping Poland Polish and being proud of being Polish. Poland had been destroyed for over half a century by white foreign invaders. The people now just want their own country for their own people without foreign interference regardless of race. They are proud to be Polish and that's as far as it goes. What's wrong with leaving Poland to be Polish?

Let me ask you this - When does it stop being nationalistic and turn to racism? What happens when the nationals get there way and decide that multi cultarlism no longer works, what do they do with all those foreigners? Where do they go? How are they going to be dealt with? Look back through history and you will see how these people get dealt with.

[Blidly]

I would like to see what happens in international games before this, and just a couple of questions if anyone knew the answers would help me understand whether the BBC hyped this up etc and well shouldnt do this as well it just spurs bad feelings towards. Do black players get abused during the match? Is there violence after matches ?

But even if this doesnt happen in internationals, i would want Poland and Ukraine to massively clamp down on domestic issues of rasicm etc

[Dan_rm]

Stop saying "brown people" you utter loon

[dking]

Stop saying "brown people" you utter loon

It is what it is.

Non whites?

[Müller1469564937]

The holocaust reference has been your best moment yet, dkhead. Your posts have been a great read.

[Jibby123]

I know of an Irish nationalist party that are anti-brown. An extremely raci...sorry, nationalistic organisation. I couldn't comment about the Irish Nationalst movement because I don't know them.

Can you name some English nationalist parties that claim to be against foreigners, and multi culturilsm, that aren't against that at all, they just hate brown people?

Let me ask you this - When does it stop being nationalistic and turn to racism? What happens when the nationals get there way and decide that multi cultarlism no longer works, what do they do with all those foreigners? Where do they go? How are they going to be dealt with? Look back through history and you will see how these people get dealt with.

That's why labels are crap. Nationalism means different things to different people, doesn't it?? It's maybe a fine line, but an important one.

Yeah I worry that extremist parties will come to the fore when the voter finally has enough of the dross given up so far as UK Gov's, especially in bad economic times too, but hey.

As somebody said up above; this is probs storm in a teacup (the Panorama), the venues will be mini-UEFA towns for a few weeks, no real drama. Fingers crossed no real drama.

[dking]

The holocaust reference has been your best moment yet, dkhead. Your posts have been a great read.

Holocaust reference? What the are you talking about? I said look back through history you ignorant fool. Is the holocaust the sum total of your historical knowledge? That explains a lot.

Glad you enjoyed my posts, but sadly, I can't say I got the same enjoyment from reading your posts. Maybe if you could string a sentence together without refering to some type of genitalia, it might have been different.

Actually no, it wouldn't.

[Müller1469564937]

Holocaust reference? What the are you talking about? I said look back through history you ignorant fool. Is the holocaust the sum total of your historical knowledge? That explains a lot.

You're cleary pointing to mass genocide as being the best solution in the past to get rid of unwanted immigrants, no? Pretty sure the Holocaust falls into that category, son. It was a ridiculous point to make either way.

[Rob1981]

My point is that no matter how people try and dress up the difference between a nationalist and a racist, it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only - skin colour. It's not about being anti foreign, it's about being anti brown.

Literally can't believe I'm reading this. This is absolutely golden.

[Niebiescy]

Let me ask you this - When does it stop being nationalistic and turn to racism? What happens when the nationals get there way and decide that multi cultarlism no longer works, what do they do with all those foreigners? Where do they go? How are they going to be dealt with? Look back through history and you will see how these people get dealt with.

This isn't an issue in Poland though because it isn't multicultural

[Niebiescy]

I know of an Irish nationalist party that are anti-brown. An extremely raci...sorry, nationalistic organisation. I couldn't comment about the Irish Nationalst movement because I don't know them.

Can you name some English nationalist parties that claim to be against foreigners, and multi culturilsm, that aren't against that at all, they just hate brown people?

Let me ask you this - When does it stop being nationalistic and turn to racism? What happens when the nationals get there way and decide that multi cultarlism no longer works, what do they do with all those foreigners? Where do they go? How are they going to be dealt with? Look back through history and you will see how these people get dealt with.

Have you every considered that there are different types of nationalists? You have Sinn Fein, PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) etc who are left wing and others who are right wing. Nationalism on its own doesn't have a particular place on the political scale. It depends on the political agenda that the party or group presents along with its nationalist beliefs. Please do some reading before commenting on the topic.

[Crazy_T]

all poles are anti-brown!

[outlander]

My point is that no matter how people try and dress up the difference between a nationalist and a racist, it all boils down to one thing, and one thing only - skin colour. It's not about being anti foreign, it's about being anti brown.

How old are you?

Are you really that stupid ffs? Being a nationalist is about being anti-brown? WTF?

In Eastern Europe nationalists have the least bad feelings to "brown" people of those who are they against.

[dking]

Have you every considered that there are different types of nationalists? You have Sinn Fein, PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) etc who are left wing and others who are right wing. Nationalism on its own doesn't have a particular place on the political scale. It depends on the political agenda that the party or group presents along with its nationalist beliefs. Please do some reading before commenting on the topic.

"most of the right wing ultras from Polish clubs are not fascists, but nationalists. That was the key to what I wrote. They are proud to be Polish and are against things like immigration, multiculturalism etc.."

You can talk all the crap you want, Niebiescy, but I know facist scum when I see it, and I certainly don't need to "do any reading" before commenting on it.

It's quite clear to me which way you're leaning.

[Bhoy]

"most of the right wing ultras from Polish clubs are not fascists, but nationalists. That was the key to what I wrote. They are proud to be Polish and are against things like immigration, multiculturalism etc.."

You can talk all the crap you want, Niebiescy, but I know facist scum when I see it, and I certainly don't need to "do any reading" before commenting on it.

It's quite clear to me which way you're leaning.

It's clear to me aswell. It's clear that Niebescy is leaning towards the nationalist side which is fine, it's just an opinion. This is why there is a thing called politics. Supporting or being against things like immigration, multiculturism are just two different sides of politics. Personally, I am quite left but respect the opinions of people who are right wing. It only becomes racist when it is a prejudice against a race, rather than nationalists who favour their own and don't particularly want anyone else in their country.

[dking]

How old are you?

Are you really that stupid ffs? Being a nationalist is about being anti-brown? WTF?

In Eastern Europe nationalists have the least bad feelings to "brown" people of those who are they against.

Not sure what my age has to do with anything but you're right, I lumped all Nationalists into one basket, which was wrong, my mistake. I was thinking about a few well known racist, Nationalist organisations that claim to be something else other than just racist thugs, like the Ultra's in Poland to name one.

[outlander]

Not sure what my age has to do with anything but you're right, I lumped all Nationalists into one basket, which was wrong, my mistake. I was thinking about a few well known racist, Nationalist organisations that claim to be something else other than just racist thugs, like the Ultra's in Poland to name one.

If you are 16 or something like this, it's normal that you just don't have enough knowledge on this topic.

Usually nationalists don't like those nations, which people go to their country most of all and/or cause trouble. You can be sure that black people don't fall into any of those categories in the eastern europe.

[Niebiescy]

"most of the right wing ultras from Polish clubs are not fascists, but nationalists. That was the key to what I wrote. They are proud to be Polish and are against things like immigration, multiculturalism etc.."

You can talk all the crap you want, Niebiescy, but I know facist scum when I see it, and I certainly don't need to "do any reading" before commenting on it.

It's quite clear to me which way you're leaning.

If you speak to Polish nationalists then I very much doubt "brown" people are on their list of most hated people. The people they seem to dislike most are actually white. Russians are the one nation who Polish groups tend to have a problem with. They have also said that there could be problems if Russian fans wear anything that contains Communist logos or slogans such as the hammer and sickle. Considering recent recent history this is a logical target for Polish nationalists to vent their frustration at compared to those who you are suggesting. I personally know lots of Russians and like them, but others disagree. They are however far more disliked than any of these "brown" people you describe by the average Pole.

[Niebiescy]

It's clear to me aswell. It's clear that Niebescy is leaning towards the nationalist side which is fine, it's just an opinion. This is why there is a thing called politics. Supporting or being against things like immigration, multiculturism are just two different sides of politics. Personally, I am quite left but respect the opinions of people who are right wing. It only becomes racist when it is a prejudice against a race, rather than nationalists who favour their own and don't particularly want anyone else in their country.

I wouldn't describe myself as a nationalist, but I am definitely very proud of my nationality. I guess you could call me patriotic. I am pleasant towards all people regardless of their race, religion and background. I have friends from lots of different countries and cultures and enjoy learning about them and travelling to these places. I am also very open minded with regards to most things. I am personally a believer in retaining a national identity but am not totally against immigration. I believe in a selective policy similar to Australia where people are allowed in due to offering the country something rather than inviting in anyone like the UK seems to. I don't care what colour skinned these people who would come in have either before dking says anything. I think that with the position Poland is currently in it's ideal to learn from the mistakes of other Western nations who were in this position twenty years ago and to make informed decisions based on results of these. As I mentioned before I am half British half Polish (one parent from each nation) and have only been back in the UK since last October and will probably be gone again by the end of 2012. If I did register to vote here I'd probably vote for UKIP mainly due to Nigel Farage. I think that should give you an idea of my political beliefs without writing an essay. Basically I am against interference from organisations like the EU and am in favor of a points based immigration policy. I am however not a fan of the far right parties at all and am nowhere near them on the political spectrum. I am probably the equivalent to a Conservative from 10-15 years ago before nearly every British party shifted much further to the left.

[endtime]

I would like to see what happens in international games before this, and just a couple of questions if anyone knew the answers would help me understand whether the BBC hyped this up etc and well shouldnt do this as well it just spurs bad feelings towards. Do black players get abused during the match?

Sometimes. There have been reports of abusive or monkey chants being sung and banana peels being thrown at black players from the stands.

Is there violence after matches ?

It happens, though not very often, or at least not as often as in the past.

But even if this doesnt happen in internationals, i would want Poland and Ukraine to massively clamp down on domestic issues of rasicm etc

I don't know about Ukraine, but Polish authorities have been trying to clamp down on such issues. It has generated a lot of domestic resistance, however, since Polish fans have a grotesquely overblown sense of self-entitlement and self-importance and feel they are "victimised" by the authorities when they can't sing offensive chants, display offensive banners or harass non-ultras who just want to watch the game in peace.

[Niebiescy]

I have to post this because it's genius. Hopefully people take it the right way. Made by a Polish guy about the UK and shows what clever video editing and film production can achieve.

[video=youtube;5PBJd8HRhNs]

[dking]

It's going to be a brilliant Euros!