I'm Done.

[Cleon]

Actually it was you that brought this tone into the topic.

I was putting my thoughts across which I thought was very fair.

As said by a mod in this topic SI are working on a new match engine but it may not be ready in time for FM13.

I feel this is wrong and the game should be held back until the new engine is ready,like I said earlier if you ask other companies "when will the game release?" there answer is "when it is ready!"

To your sarcastic remark,I had no idea they were working on a new match engine,infact I remember reading that they had made a lot of new changes to the match engine for 2012,I did not buy at release as there did not seem to be that many changes from 2011,at least not one's that changed the game greatly for me.

I support SI and always have but not this need to get the game out for the Christmas market.

You read wrong then as it was clearly stated and highlighted that the ME would be basically same as FM11.

[wally13]

To your sarcastic remark,I had no idea they were working on a new match engine,infact I remember reading that they had made a lot of new changes to the match engine for 2012,I did not buy at release as there did not seem to be that many changes from 2011,at least not one's that changed the game greatly for me.

.

Not sure were you got that from as it was totally the opposite, it was said ages ago the changes to the the M.E Would be very little for fm12 so they can work on a new M.E For fm13 and beyond

[dolph11]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. Daylight is saying that another version shouldn't be released until the ME is ready. I have to agree. Times are hard and money is tight and IF they do release FM13 and say that they are still working on a new ME as it wasn't ready to go into FM13 then that to me is a horrible way of treating loyal customers, which a lot of FM buyers are! Like myself I've been playing it (including old CM) for 16 years! SI/Sega get complacent because they know we are passionate about the game and buy it any way. I hope they don't release a new FM until the ME is ready. The defending on the game is so bad it's untrue.

[daylight]

You read wrong then as it was clearly stated and highlighted that the ME would be basically same as FM11.

Maybe but that still does not give your opening remark any credit,I did not know(if they were)working on a new ME which never made it into 2012,I have now heard they are indeed working on a new ME which might not make it in time for 2013 so my argument stands..regardless of your comment.

[wally13]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. Daylight is saying that another version shouldn't be released until the ME is ready. I have to agree. Times are hard and money is tight and IF they do release FM13 and say that they are still working on a new ME as it wasn't ready to go into FM13 then that to me is a horrible way of treating loyal customers, which a lot of FM buyers are! Like myself I've been playing it (including old CM) for 16 years! SI/Sega get complacent because they know we are passionate about the game and buy it any way. I hope they don't release a new FM until the ME is ready. The defending on the game is so bad it's untrue.

So what about the thousands and thousands of people who want a new game every year and dont mind how things are ?? surely if SI tell the public certain things may not be ready for fm13 the its totally your choice if you go buy the game still

[Kriss]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. Daylight is saying that another version shouldn't be released until the ME is ready. I have to agree. Times are hard and money is tight and IF they do release FM13 and say that they are still working on a new ME as it wasn't ready to go into FM13 then that to me is a horrible way of treating loyal customers, which a lot of FM buyers are! Like myself I've been playing it (including old CM) for 16 years! SI/Sega get complacent because they know we are passionate about the game and buy it any way. I hope they don't release a new FM until the ME is ready. The defending on the game is so bad it's untrue.

Like Daylight you're missing the point, at the time they decided to redevelop the ME they really couldn't put a time scale on it because it's such a vast project, PaulC commented then that there was no guarantee it would make FM13 to emphasise that point.

It's not being built for FM13, it's being built for whenever it's ready and until they get to the stage when they can predict a completion date there's no point in making any demands.

[Alex W]

So what about the thousands and thousands of people who want a new game every year and dont mind how things are ?? surely if SI tell the public certain things may not be ready for fm13 the its totally your choice if you go buy the game still

I believe that he's trying to say that if you were making a new ME because the old one couldn't be developed and was slowly tarting to alienate the fan-base (though online forums to tend to be more negative than positive with anything) then is it right that they'd be prepared to release a game with a system that they know some people aren't happy with rather than delay the release in order to finish the new ME?

FM13 will no doubt be released regardless of whatever the fans say, it's a cash cow, no-one in their right mind would delay it. Unfortunately, that'll mean another year of this. The simple thing therefore is not to buy another FM until the new ME is released, which is what I shall do. Unfortunately, most people won't be able to resist atleast giving the next one a go even if they know that the ME is the same.

Meaning that they might not change a new ME at all anyway. (All theoretical of course)

[Cleon]

Maybe but that still does not give your opening remark any credit,I did not know(if they were)working on a new ME which never made it into 2012,I have now heard they are indeed working on a new ME which might not make it in time for 2013 so my argument stands..regardless of your comment.

How does your comment stand? It's not as if the current version is unplayable. The new ME is probably years away and isn't something that's on the immediate horizon. It'll take quite a bit of time to redesign it and make it better than it currently is (this is only my opinion and not a fact)

You'd all be moaning and in the same boat if it was released now and still had all the same issues. It's better they take the time to make it the best they can.

Should they postpone any future releases? Well no not imo due to them improving other areas of the game and keep developing them even further. In order to do this they need to be making money and have some sort of income from the game. Without money from the previous versions of the game then no new features of future development of the game would happen.

Most top games do a yearly release with little improvements each year. It's the way the industry has always worked.

[SCIAG]

* My goalkeeper will kick the ball long under no pressure, and every time he does it, a goal is conceded. He is told to pass it out at every goal kick and his passing is set to as short as possible. In the right circumstance, he does need to boot it out, but with no-one within 20 yards of him and his passing set to short as possible, why would he go against tactics?

I know this sounds stupid and counter productive, but it is how the ME works:

If you have a player set to really short passing, then if there is no-one within 20 yards of him, he'll just get rid of it, particularly if he has a very defensive mentality.

Strange as it sounds, you might find it helpful to make your goalkeeper's passing longer. Set it to the low end of mixed and you'll find that he's prepared to make slightly longer passes rather than just clearing the ball from danger.

[daylight]

So what about the thousands and thousands of people who want a new game every year and dont mind how things are ?? surely if SI tell the public certain things may not be ready for fm13 the its totally your choice if you go buy the game still

Yeah you are Sega's dream.

In all honesty it is of course up to the player if he buys the game or not.

I just feel that SI should be given the time to work on the game,I mean ffs Sega have made millions on this title.

In recent years it has stalled and needs more time to bring the new ME and maybe a few other brand new touch's to the game.

I am a huge FM/SI fan so don;t get me wrong here but the game maybe needs a year were it does not release.

In all honesty if another title released a follow up a year later with so little changes there would be a massive uproar..FM gets away with this because the fan base is so loyal.

Maybe it is time Sega/SI gave back to that fanbase with a new ME and some other big changes for the next release,even if it means delaying the release for 6 months.

[Mojby]

I have to say my only issue is the morale problem. My players constantly lose morale even when on a winning streak and the team talks very rarely get me positive results in terms of player reactions. i could be winning 10-0 and parise my players and maybe two get a positive result and a couple negatives the rest are nothing specific noticed

This part for me is what am not happy with.

[wally13]

In all honesty if another title released a follow up a year later with so little changes there would be a massive uproar..FM gets away with this because the fan base is so loyal.

Can name you 2 right away and there 2 of the biggest selling games every year COD And FIFA

[Alex W]

I know this sounds stupid and counter productive, but it is how the ME works:

If you have a player set to really short passing, then if there is no-one within 20 yards of him, he'll just get rid of it, particularly if he has a very defensive mentality.

Strange as it sounds, you might find it helpful to make your goalkeeper's passing longer. Set it to the low end of mixed and you'll find that he's prepared to make slightly longer passes rather than just clearing the ball from danger.

This is the thing though SCIAG, most of the time he is absolutely fine, and my goal-kicks consist of my goalkeeper simply passing it to my left-back. This continues into the match when it's general play, he just passes to my full-backs. Unfortunately, every so often for no apparent reason, he will kick it long and they will score almost every time.

It's a case of the ME wanting them to score, rather than any need to kick the ball long for tactical reasons etc. This kind of thing is what I don't want to see in the 'best' Football Manager game around, it shouldn't be happening.

[Kriss]

Yeah you are Sega's dream.

In all honesty it is of course up to the player if he buys the game or not.

I just feel that SI should be given the time to work on the game,I mean ffs Sega have made millions on this title.

In recent years it has stalled and needs more time to bring the new ME and maybe a few other brand new touch's to the game.

I am a huge FM/SI fan so don;t get me wrong here but the game maybe needs a year were it does not release.

In all honesty if another title released a follow up a year later with so little changes there would be a massive uproar..FM gets away with this because the fan base is so loyal.

Maybe it is time Sega/SI gave back to that fanbase with a new ME and some other big changes for the next release,even if it means delaying the release for 6 months.

Wouldn't it be wise to wait and see, we don't actually know what they plan and it's a bit silly people getting so irate on a load of assumptions.

If they don't produce what you want there's always the option of giving the next release a miss as a lot of people already do.

[daylight]

Most top games do a yearly release with little improvements each year. It's the way the industry has always worked.

Which games are those?

You mean the likes of MW or Deus EX(only releases when ready) or Battlefield,or maybe you mean the Fallout series or indeed the likes of GW2(that they still wont give a release date for)

Honestly I am struggling to think of a top series game that releases every year that has very few changes?

At least with MW and Battlefield you have a new single player game and new multi player maps....not sure what games you are playing though maybe some other series.

Edit-"Can name you 2 right away and there 2 of the biggest selling games every year COD And FIFA"

Also answer Wally13 question.

[Alex W]

Can name you 2 right away and there 2 of the biggest selling games every year COD And FIFA

Fifa works for now, hence the lack of changes, and even then there has been the whole 'defensive movement' overhaul upon this years release. There's only so far they can go with Fifa once they've got the main part working.

The CoD fanbase is in something of an uproar after the distinct step backwards that the series has taken with the new release, infact some were saying it when Black Ops had been out for a while. Infinity Ward are finished, and the new CoD will be a big change in direction (or atleast a step forwards, according to the few details released by developers etc).

The last CoD was a simple 'copy and paste' job from MW2, though in fairness the company producing it had been halved and much of the top talent there had left for a new company. But still, there has been a definite fan reaction that that title.

(Not attempting to argue for the sake of it here chap, just pointing that out)

[Kriss]

SI did take on extra staff due to increased sales this time, so we can hope for some by products of that:)

[bullybeef]

It is ironic that although FM comes out annually and prematurely in terms of fully patched development, we only have to wait a few months until Feb/Mar and buy the game for ~70% off, practically fully patched. So I suppose we are already buying a mod at a reasonable price! Woo hoo!

[daylight]

Like Daylight you're missing the point, at the time they decided to redevelop the ME they really couldn't put a time scale on it because it's such a vast project, PaulC commented then that there was no guarantee it would make FM13 to emphasise that point.

It's not being built for FM13, it's being built for whenever it's ready and until they get to the stage when they can predict a completion date there's no point in making any demands.

Well that is the point then?

If they are building a new ME they know they current one is not good enough!

So in turn they are (maybe)going to release a sub par game just because they can?

I honestly can not believe that players and mods are defending this action.

They know the ME need to fixed but rather than fix it and then release it they will just release the same thing next year.

You guys do know that most AAA+ games take 4 years to make right?

It seems this is a bit pointless as I am sure the final comment will be "well you don't have to buy it",when instead it should be "yeah SI should be given the time to release the game they want to".

[Kriss]

Yeh:) those lucky people who have the patience to play their FM from March to March are on a winner.

[dolph11]

Is that how cheap it gets to? I've been guilty of always buying it straight away. I have to say I'm happy with the rest of the game apart from a few minor things, just the lack of intelligence in defending on the ME is a massive gamebreaker for me.

[Kriss]

Well that is the point then?

If they are building a new ME the know the current one is not good enough!

So in turn they are (maybe)going to release a sub par game just because they can?

I honestly can not believe that players and mods are defending this action.

They know the ME need to fixed but rather than fix it and then release it they will just release the same thing next year.

You guys do know that most AAA+ games take 4 years to make right?

It seems this is a bit pointless as I am sure the final comment will be "well you don;t have to buy it",when instead it should be "yeah SI should be given the time to release the game they want to".

No, the decision was that the FM11 ME couldn't effectively be tweaked any further so the time had come to redevelop.

The problem is in knowing how long that will take, once they do have something concrete we'll be told, in the meantime do remember the ME team is a small one task team so there'll be a heck of a lot of resources going into the other areas of the game independent of that.

In the end only you and I can decide if what they produce justifies us buying FM13, for myself the ME isn't critical, it serves my purpose as is.

Morale, well that's another story:D

[daylight]

for myself the ME isn't critical, it serves my purpose as is.

Morale, well that's another story:D

Hehe don't get me started on that

You are right though when it comes to voting with you wallet,thank you also for at least being open to the argument.

I will wait and see how it goes with SI,I just feel so much frustration with the game as when I play it I know that given the time SI could have made it so much more.

[Kriss]

I will wait and see how it goes with SI,I just feel so much frustration with the game as when I play it I know that given the time SI could have made it so much more.

They will, but believe me it's so complex that time is what it takes and of course we all have our own pet projects which we feel are the key to making it the game we want while ignoring every other bugger:D

[Football Manager.]

I kinda felt this way, then I changed to 2d, keeps me happy.

it helps i do agree with this. bring the old feel back to it and you will get a season done in almost twice as quick time. if i was to spend the minute i got up on a saturday to the minute i fell asleep on a save i would get through a season and then some. it's not for everybody i'm not looking or asking anyones opinion on playing like this because simply i don't care i've played every version in different ways and this was something i found towards the end of 11 and on this one that made it slightly fun again. but like you i won't be buying the next one unless something really does grab me and the way i have felt for the last 5 months it would have to be something drastic.

[Sussex Hammer]

Must confess I am close to calling it a day since playing since 97. Players can't defend, poor ME, morale having far too much effect, strikers not scoring from 2 yards, the list goes on and on for me and I have loved every game since the beginning.

I'm going on some very odd runs at the moment. Unbeaten in 6 then can't win for 6, then off I go on a run again. Striker will score 8 goals in 4 games then won't find the net for 6 matches. Just today I wion 4-0 at home and played brilliantly but the following week I get done by a 18th placed team 4-0 at home and the problem is there is no rhyme and reason for it.

Half the problem is if you lose a game morale drops too quickly but if you win a game it doesn't seem to give you a boost. Tactics are worthless it just depends on what mood your team is on the day.

[heathxxx]

So let's assume that FM13 features the "new" match engine...

Unless it's 100% perfect in every possible way imaginable (which is impossible, BTW), will there still be uproar?

Considering the current match engine has so many variables possible as matches are played, I think it does a pretty good job. That's not escaping the fact that there are both obvious and glaring inadequacies. So far as I can tell, SI have indeed acknowledged that, therefore rather than try to remedy fixes, upon fixes, upon further fixes... why not rebuild the whole thing from scratch? Seems like the right direction for me.

As for developing such a thing, if it's not ready to roll out for FM13, so be it. Much better to wait until it is more polished and tested thoroughly. Given that many of the flaws people experience are on the surface, the animations, rather than what's "under the hood" actually driving the ME.

Now let's look at time between releases. Considering there's a release every year, turning out as complex a game in its entirety, not to mention the compilation of all the data, is a huge undertaking within such a short development cycle. I've often seen people suggest skipping an annual release to "make the game better". The ugly truth of the matter is, there's a genuine demand for a new game each year. Games charts in the UK alone and the longevity that FM is in the upper echelons of the charts, further back that up. Does anyone honestly believe, that if SI took an extra year between releases, the sales would double? The reality is, that's what it would take to make it worthwhile commercially, but it simply won't happen. Football Manager, even though always high in the sales charts in the UK, is still a niche game with a fairly limited market.

That's my bit said.

[daylight]

So let's assume that FM13 features the "new" match engine...

Unless it's 100% perfect in every possible way imaginable (which is impossible, BTW), will there still be uproar?

Considering the current match engine has so many variables possible as matches are played, I think it does a pretty good job. That's not escaping the fact that there are both obvious and glaring inadequacies. So far as I can tell, SI have indeed acknowledged that, therefore rather than try to remedy fixes, upon fixes, upon further fixes... why not rebuild the whole thing from scratch? Seems like the right direction for me.

As for developing such a thing, if it's not ready to roll out for FM13, so be it. Much better to wait until it is more polished and tested thoroughly. Given that many of the flaws people experience are on the surface, the animations, rather than what's "under the hood" actually driving the ME.

Now let's look at time between releases. Considering there's a release every year, turning out as complex a game in its entirety, not to mention the compilation of all the data, is a huge undertaking within such a short development cycle. I've often seen people suggest skipping an annual release to "make the game better". The ugly truth of the matter is, there's a genuine demand for a new game each year. Games charts in the UK alone and the longevity that FM is in the upper echelons of the charts, further back that up. Does anyone honestly believe, that if SI took an extra year between releases, the sales would double? The reality is, that's what it would take to make it worthwhile commercially, but it simply won't happen. Football Manager, even though always high in the sales charts in the UK, is still a niche game with a fairly limited market.

That's my bit said.

I agree but when you want to summarise it "mah they will buy it anyway".

Although I will add FM is a big seller and maybe deserves the right after all these years to be given the time for SI to release the game as they would want.

The game does not have to release every year.The game is now on Steam so they could easily(if they choose)to have 1 year with say a 10 Euro update with all the latest transfers etc and the next year a new game for the full price,this would give SI the time needed to update the game as well as bringing in the cash.

This wont happen of course as Sega uses it as a cash whore and wants it released every October/November and I bet my last penny that some of the devs over at SI are thinking "if we just had more time".

[slipknot67]

Fifa works for now, hence the lack of changes, and even then there has been the whole 'defensive movement' overhaul upon this years release. There's only so far they can go with Fifa once they've got the main part working.

The CoD fanbase is in something of an uproar after the distinct step backwards that the series has taken with the new release, infact some were saying it when Black Ops had been out for a while. Infinity Ward are finished, and the new CoD will be a big change in direction (or atleast a step forwards, according to the few details released by developers etc).

The last CoD was a simple 'copy and paste' job from MW2, though in fairness the company producing it had been halved and much of the top talent there had left for a new company. But still, there has been a definite fan reaction that that title.

(Not attempting to argue for the sake of it here chap, just pointing that out)

Sorry but I have to completely disagree with the bolded part there. Fifa12 is without doubt the most broken game I've ever had the misfortune to be duped into handing over money for in my entire life, have you seen any of the vids on youtube featuring their brilliant new impact detection system were guys the size of Crouch can be sent hurtling into the air by someone like Aguero and don't even get me starting on the so called online aspect of the game where I'm lucky if 1 in 5 connection attempts to an opponent are actually successful.

[bullybeef]

TBH I thought the ME wasn't too bad on FM11, and if FM12 has only incorporated the same engine with the added moral pitfalls, then the benefit of football tactical knowledge goes out of the window if your star striker got out of bed on the wrong side, and no one tells you.

Like I have said so often already, the scoring easy chances situation (not necessary every CCC, maybe just empty net and clean through chances) could be solved if they simply allowed the player to score in those situations (obviously dependant that the goalscorer has the necessary attributes to do so). It is so difficult to create those kinda chances that I think we deserve the reward of scoring a beautiful goal. But we would have to be prepared that these things would go against us to.

Sometimes games create very few CCC IRL, and when they come, they go in. It ain't rocket science. And I think this is why ppl find this specific gripe so infuriating because we work so hard to understand how to create great goal scoring chances.

[Alex W]

Sorry but I have to completely disagree with the bolded part there. Fifa12 is without doubt the most broken game I've ever had the misfortune to be duped into handing over money for in my entire life, have you seen any of the vids on youtube featuring their brilliant new impact detection system were guys the size of Crouch can be sent hurtling into the air by someone like Aguero and don't even get me starting on the so called online aspect of the game where I'm lucky if 1 in 5 connection attempts to an opponent are actually successful.

True, there are things like that, but if you play a game between two average League Two teams then it's pretty much as good as you'll get from this generation of consoles. There's a definite problem with 'forec-efields' around better players and other tweaks needed, but on the whole, the system pretty much works as it should.

The connection problem is simply an EA problem, which covers most of their games. That's why i'd never by Battlefield on console, PC connections are so much better!

[Some Guy!]

I'm quoting 'Some Guy!' here but i'll basically reply to most of what has been said.

For question 1) I've replayed some games where i've had goals go against me that would grace every bloopers DVD from now until the end of time, and they're constant. I don't mind losing, I was playing as AFC Telford previously and i'd lost around 5 games that season which happens in football, to have only 5 losses is extremely lucky. But in some games i'd played, ridiculous things would happen. Examples:

* Goals that were offside would count, which again happens, but the game wouldn't recognise that they were offside, the referee's analysis would say they'd had a great game.

* Players would, as bullybeef has said in his second post, simply stop next to the ball to let another player reach it and score.

* My left-back and centre-back passing it between each other until someone reaches them, upon which point they'll either give it away, get tackled, or boot it directly to their playmaker who will ultimately create a goal. Now why, when the fifty times before it that left-back has simply passed it to the left winger (upon instruction) would the defender do that?

* My goalkeeper will kick the ball long under no pressure, and every time he does it, a goal is conceded. He is told to pass it out at every goal kick and his passing is set to as short as possible. In the right circumstance, he does need to boot it out, but with no-one within 20 yards of him and his passing set to short as possible, why would he go against tactics? And why does it always result in a goal? My average side is never good at heading, my sides pass teams to death (or atleast attempt to, there's a limit to how much you can do in the BSP) and so all players are told to pass to feet.

*Finally, the MOTHER of all sins, the long throw in! Set it to short, tell your poacher and defensive mid to stand next to your throw-in taker (usually my full-backs) and every so often they will throw it long into the box when no-one is there, only for the defenders to obviously simply take the ball and eventually someone will score. That one move has a 100% record against me for goals, and there's no way to stop it.

I could go on, the lack of marking at throw-ins that someone else has posted the pic of is another issue. I can deal with losing, I actually like adversity and having to change formations and switch things around to get through a tricky patch, but what I can't stand is the ME itself. And morale is no problem for me I should add, i've never had a problem with it. For me, simply revolving between the main "Passionate" talk and then "Assertive - I have faith in you" works in almost all situations. If you're being smashed at half time going attacking and having a go at them works for me.

Question 2) I can't answer, I don't know why it was breaking, I felt very ripped off though (I presumed it to be dodgy coding but when it hadn't happened to others, i'm thinking it's just my particular CD etc). I tried twice to reach january and both times it crashed, another required the xml fix and that also corrupted the file, though SI have warned about that one before. I've simply started backing up saves twice now, didn't want to take the risk of losing the saves again.

I just want a ME that works, I want teams to score good goals against me. What I don't want is a ME that dis-regards players attributes and will simply screw you over to put in motion the result that it has decided long before you start the match. I want to be able to replay a game and see a somewhat different outcome. Not because I want to replay games to get wins, that ruins the point of playing the game, but I don't want a game that's scripted to the point that the ME causes ridiculous things to happen to your players/tactics in order to give the other side a goal. I want to play a game where such mistakes are a rarity and teams simply out-play you, rather than this kind of rubbish. If they're truly re-making the ME then i'll not buy another till that one is out, i'll stick to older versions.

Oh, and yes, i'm a Derby fan and the injuries I get are equal to some of those spells which is fair enough, but the amount of time such injuries are for are such that i've had to abandon one campaign with a League Two side as I simply couldn't put a side out to compete for several months. The knocks are the main aggravation, going to Chelsea and within ten minutes seeing three defenders on 60% due to knocks is a real pain, i'd rather knocks were a rarity to be honest, or atleast didn't hit for as much fitness as they do. I often have to sub those concerned, leaving me screwed for the second half should anyone else need replacing.

(TL : DR I know, apologies folks)

Can you show us clear evidence that the goal was actually offside?

Why did you replay the games? Surely if you replay games there is a finite chance similar things will happen.

All the other things are things that I have seen happen in real football, as annoying and ridiculous as it seems.

Also, did you read the thread I posted?

The game disc really shouldn't matter thanks to steam. If you really do think there was something wrong with your initial install though, verify your game cache on steam (there is a tutorial in the stickies on General Discussion) and that will get rid of anything. How do you exit your game, do you use a laptop? Do you ever close the lid on your laptop to put it to sleep while playing?

The knocks are one of those things that I think its more about the lack of media interest in them after games, than them happening more in game than in real life. A lot of players in real life will get bad knocks in games, but carry on and be alright after. Players sometimes also come off with what looks like a season ending injury only to return weeks later... Like Brisbane's Luke Brattan yesterday.

Overall the ME does work and teams score realistic goals. I don't know what you define as good goals, but if you've watched Derby play for more than one week here or one week there you'd know that in real football not every goal is pretty.

Have a nice day.

[siambluebird]

ALEXW - The simple thing therefore is not to buy another FM until the new ME is released, which is what I shall do.

Here endeth the lesson. Absolutely spot on. I stayed with FM11 because I want a new match engine. This one just can't do what the game is asking it to do. Seriously people, don't buy a new version until a new match engine is runnning and patched up. No point complaining non stop about this match engine.

[Alex W]

Can you show us clear evidence that the goal was actually offside?

Why did you replay the games? Surely if you replay games there is a finite chance similar things will happen.

All the other things are things that I have seen happen in real football, as annoying and ridiculous as it seems.

Also, did you read the thread I posted?

The game disc really shouldn't matter thanks to steam. If you really do think there was something wrong with your initial install though, verify your game cache on steam (there is a tutorial in the stickies on General Discussion) and that will get rid of anything. How do you exit your game, do you use a laptop? Do you ever close the lid on your laptop to put it to sleep while playing?

The knocks are one of those things that I think its more about the lack of media interest in them after games, than them happening more in game than in real life. A lot of players in real life will get bad knocks in games, but carry on and be alright after. Players sometimes also come off with what looks like a season ending injury only to return weeks later... Like Brisbane's Luke Brattan yesterday.

Overall the ME does work and teams score realistic goals. I don't know what you define as good goals, but if you've watched Derby play for more than one week here or one week there you'd know that in real football not every goal is pretty.

Have a nice day.

I cannot show you proof, that particular game is on a now corrupted save. And I replayed those games because the level of BS in the goals against me was of such a ridiculous quality that I had to see whether it was a glitch/error/rare event or simply a ME mechanic designed to give the other team the win. Turns out it's seemingly meant to do so, which is both annoying and a shame.

I did indeed read the thread you posted, which was only mentioning teams losing games. I am well aware teams lose games, and for seemingly no reason (even with high morale/solid tactics/great players etc), my issue is with the ME reducing goals to the kind of thing you'd see in U12's football and if seen in anywhere else would be laughed at. I do not wish for every other goal I concede to be of this quality. Blooper reel goals shouldn't be happening so often. That is my issue. The game will also seemingly over-ride attributes to give away goals. Players will be slowed for no reason, goalkeepers will leave a ball under 10 yards infront of them for a striker around 25 yards away to reach and score with. That is not a ME, it's simply a pre-designed result where the ME decides they deserve a goal and ignores all footballing logic to give them that goal.

In the top football manager game, that is very poor. I play the game for realism, and the most important part of it doesn't give you that. That is the problem.

I have never seen a player throw the ball into a box which had none of their players in it, and I have never seen a goalkeeper leave a ball that he could easily walk to in three steps and pick up for a striker a good 25 yards away. These are the things that drive me insane.

I have no idea why they continue to corrupt, backing them up usually works so it's no longer a problem, it's apparently only me that's suffering from it so i'm not going to blame SI too much, something must just be dodgy on my end. Knocks happen alot, true, but when you're getting 3/4 knocks before half-time with players down to 72%, that leaves you needing to sub the lot of them. I've never had a player recover from a knock (and i've seen the little 'tip' message on loading screens that suggests they do) so I have to sub them there and then or suffer against anyone with pace. I'd prefer knocks scaled down a bit, 5% off of their fitness or something like that. Between injuries and knocks it's rare that I have more than one substitution available to me after half-time.

The ME does not work, not well enough atleast, which has been atleast partially proven by people having the exact same issues that I have. If it were just me being bitter, no-one would have agreed, and especially not with coherent examples either. I know full well what a goal is like thank you, I commentate on match-days and scout for sides both nationally and sometimes internationally, so i'm not ignorant to how poor goals can be conceded. I just think that for all the money SI must pull in, they should atleast be making a ME that actually replicates football matches. Forget every other little gadget and side-attraction, that is where they make their money, and overall it's probably the most faulty things in the game.

And you.

[Alex W]

ALEXW - The simple thing therefore is not to buy another FM until the new ME is released, which is what I shall do.

Here endeth the lesson. Absolutely spot on. I stayed with FM11 because I want a new match engine. This one just can't do what the game is asking it to do. Seriously people, don't buy a new version until a new match engine is runnning and patched up. No point complaining non stop about this match engine.

Don't worry, I haven't complained before and I shalln't play it again, I only posted the thread to see if I was on my own or if others were of the same mind-set. Turns out they are.

I'll either play FM2010 until the next game's demo, or i'll stop playing altogether until a new ME is created. I have enough other titles to keep me busy for a good while.

[wwfan]

Looking past constant injuries/knocks meaning i've often used at least two subs before half-time, FM decides that I will not win so makes players miss constant sitters from 2 yards and gives the other side a goal in the last minute by making players who know to kick the ball forwards pass it between each other until the opponents get close enough to nick it and score. I've had my goalkeeper leave a ball 5 yards away from him for the striker who's a good 20 yards away to run to it and put it in. Only 5 minutes ago my defender under very little pressure turned around 10 yards out and put it in the top corner of my own net.

This kind of stuff usually only happens if you have lots of incompatible manually set instructions. Would you be willing to explain your tactical approach? If so, it might be possible to tie down some of the reasons for the things you are observing in the ME.

[shirajzl]

This kind of stuff usually only happens if you have lots of incompatible manually set instructions. Would you be willing to explain your tactical approach? If so, it might be possible to tie down some of the reasons for the things you are observing in the ME.

You always claim that players in ME have a certain degree of free will within tactical instructions a user gives them. With that in mind, players should never give away the ball for no apparent reason or just stand idle next to the ball while the opponent comes from 20m away and puts the ball into the net. Also, I've never understood what's the connection between players missing an open net from 3m and my tactical instructions? It just doesn't make any sense, tapping the ball in is something a 5yo child would know to do, let alone a professional footballer. Football players don't go "oh, I'm in a clear cut chance, should I score a goal or miss it? Hmm, the manager gave me some conflicting instructions regarding this". Bollocks.

[bullybeef]

.....players should never give away the ball for no apparent reason or just stand idle next to the ball while the opponent comes from 20m away and puts the ball into the net.

It's a bug.

Football players don't go "oh, I'm in a clear cut chance, should I score a goal or miss it? Hmm, the manager gave me some conflicting instructions regarding this".

Precisely, a footballer whom is on form, and has the necessary attributes, would at the very least use his own free will simply touch the ball in. If a manager told the players to time waste, he wouldn't decide to clear the ball into the stands instead.

[wwfan]

You always claim that players in ME have a certain degree of free will within tactical instructions a user gives them. With that in mind, players should never give away the ball for no apparent reason or just stand idle next to the ball while the opponent comes from 20m away and puts the ball into the net. Also, I've never understood what's the connection between players missing an open net from 3m and my tactical instructions? It just doesn't make any sense, tapping the ball in is something a 5yo child would know to do, let alone a professional footballer. Football players don't go "oh, I'm in a clear cut chance, should I score a goal or miss it? Hmm, the manager gave me some conflicting instructions regarding this". Bollocks.

You are being far too literal with your interpretation and really not helping. In all my years in modding and writing about FM, I've never seen players constantly miss open goals from 3 yards. I've seen them miss lots of "one on ones", but there was, and still is, a reason for that. I'm not going to repeat the reasons unless the OP requests it as I've covered it thousands of times already.

As for free will, there is some if the manager allows it. However, zero CF for short passing DCs and a big mentality split between the defence and midfield is asking for trouble. It will cause what the OP has complained about.

[Alex W]

This kind of stuff usually only happens if you have lots of incompatible manually set instructions. Would you be willing to explain your tactical approach? If so, it might be possible to tie down some of the reasons for the things you are observing in the ME.

Of course

Formation:

---------GK---------

RB--CB-----CB----LB

-----BWM---AP-----

IF/Wsa----------IF/Wa

-----P-----TM/CF---

That is the general load-out, a normal 4-4-2 except the two wingers are both attacking wingers or Inside forwards, so the game recognises it as both a 4-2-4 and a 4-2-2-2. This works for all home games and the odd easy away game, otherwise when away I take the Target Man/Complete Forward out and stick in a DM behind the midfield, sticking the poacher to move into channels and telling him to run onto the ball. The original ball winning midfielder then goes to box to box. Aslong as you've got the right players, it works every time. Not every game's a win etc, but i've never failed to each whatever season objective i've I set myself, aslong as I have a squad good enough to do so anyway.

Team instructions:

Philosopy: Fluid

Strategy: Control/Counter (Home or very easy away games is Control, most away games is counter)

Passing: Shorter

Creative Freedom: Expressive

Closing Down: Press More

Tackling: More Aggressive

Marking: Man Marking

Crossing: Default

Roaming: Stick To Position

Defensive line is one 'up' from Deep, or one/two down, dependant on how quick my defense is. I play narrow on the counter, I vary it with two strikers depending on if i'm using wingers who need more space or two inside forwards, who prefer narrow width obviously. Passing is always mixed, I never play offside.

Does that help?

[bullybeef]

I have experienced 3 empty goal misses - in the same game. In one effort, my STR decided to smash the ball as hard as he can from 6 yards out, rattling the woodwork whilst the net was gaping.

Obviously when you are successful, misses aren't as annoying. But I fear that these occurrences can only demoralise the inexperienced user into believing there's no reward for attacking endeavour. And missing sitters should increase confidence that you are doing something right, whereas in FM, you are punished for it.

[wwfan]

Does that help?

What duties are you using in midfield and defence? How many settings have you manually overridden?

[wwfan]

I have experienced 3 empty goal misses - in the same game. In one effort, my STR decided to smash the ball as hard as he can from 6 yards out, rattling the woodwork whilst the net was gaping.

Obviously when you are successful, misses aren't as annoying. But I fear that these occurrences can only demoralise the inexperienced user into believing there's no reward for attacking endeavour. And missing sitters should increase confidence that you are doing something right, whereas in FM, you are punished for it.

Could you upload the pkm?

[Alex W]

What duties are you using in midfield and defence? How many settings have you manually overridden?

My attacking midfielder is set just into attacking, any ball winning midfielders are set into defensive and box-to-box players are set at just above defensive.

Very little is changed in the way of how players are set, my strikers are heavily edited to make sure they pass/move/turn to shoot how I want, but the defenders/defensive midfielders are set to their general settings.

[bullybeef]

Yeah, no worries, wwfan.

Your your amusement here is the missed "goal" I described above:

Bellamy should have got 2 goals for hitting the crossbar from there!

[BiggusD]

This kind of stuff usually only happens if you have lots of incompatible manually set instructions. Would you be willing to explain your tactical approach? If so, it might be possible to tie down some of the reasons for the things you are observing in the ME.

How could instructions make a goalkeeper let the opponent score?

A goalkeeper's job is to prevent the opponents from scoring. So no real-life goalkeeper would ever stop at the edge of his area while the ball lies still (or almost still) a few meters in front of him while a striker is approaching. He would hack it away regardless of what his manager told him to do AND regardless of his ability or inclination to rush out.

What I don't get about the Defending Criticism is how easy it would be to ease the minds of all those angry customers! Simply remove the animations/ME calculation results that display anything close to poor defending! I mean, why is it necessary to show us that a goal was conceded because our defenders stood around braindead watching something in the stands while the opponents score an easy goal from a cross or through-ball? Why couldn't the defender just be 1/10th of a second too late instead of several meters away? Why should deep crosses bounce off an unobservant defender facing the wrong direction, when an opponent striker winning the challenge and scoring would be much easier to accept? Why are those animations in the game AT ALL, considering the rarity of these events in real life?

Football, even at low levels, is tight. Very tight. There is no time to do anything, no space either. Sure, teams divisions across would experience that things just go too fast for the lower division side, and then the top division team would have plenty of time. But in the same league there is no space and there is no time. Goals are scored because of defensive mistakes or great skill, but those mistakes are usually only apparent when studied in slowed-down replays on TV - and we're speaking of fractions of a second too slow or centimeters too far away to stop a cross etc. In FM we're speaking seconds and meters. That is infuriating to watch and SI knows it - so why not tighten up the game a bit?

Watching real-life football, if the ball is located in the final third on the far left flank, both teams are located in that upper left quarter. In FM, both teams are spread everywhere except perhaps the lower right third. The result is that there is plenty of space to run in and pass in and move in, and consequently what people see is very poor defending and no tracking back. I doubt that this can be fixed in this ME, so I hope that formations will mean much less in the upcoming ME just like they mean little or nothing in real life. I also hope that attributes are more absolute in the new ME.

[CityAndColour]

Ball trajectory is the big one and I'm sure this is one of the key aspects being worked on in the match engine. In real life a ball will float when you hit it over 40+ yards. On FM, defenders can laser 50-yard balls that shoot through the air. Combine this with attackers clearly having a quicker response time than defenders, and the result is countless 'end to end' attacks that usually end up with more attackers than defenders. Particularly from corners, when the defending team should theoretically have most of its players in its own box. Yet one laser clearance later (and an attacker that is already moving while the defenders aren't) and it's down the other end for a corner within five seconds.

[Andy H]

Yeah, no worries, wwfan.

Your your amusement here is the missed "goal" I described above:

Bellamy should have got 2 goals for hitting the crossbar from there!

That's not a pkm. You need to save and upload the actual match file.

[wwfan]

What I don't get about the Defending Criticism is how easy it would be to ease the minds of all those angry customers! Simply remove the animations/ME calculation results that display anything close to poor defending! I mean, why is it necessary to show us that a goal was conceded because our defenders stood around braindead watching something in the stands while the opponents score an easy goal from a cross or through-ball? Why couldn't the defender just be 1/10th of a second too late instead of several meters away? Why should deep crosses bounce off an unobservant defender facing the wrong direction, when an opponent striker winning the challenge and scoring would be much easier to accept? Why are those animations in the game AT ALL, considering the rarity of these events in real life?

I know you are just trying to help, but as explained multiple times, the ME doesn't work like this. It is not a bunch of animations decided upon because a goal is scored. The goal is scored because the defender did something stupid, not the other way around. The stupidity might be a bug or bad play, but it is intrinsic to the ME. There are no decided upon animation sequences.

Football, even at low levels, is tight. Very tight. There is no time to do anything, no space either. Sure, teams divisions across would experience that things just go too fast for the lower division side, and then the top division team would have plenty of time. But in the same league there is no space and there is no time. Goals are scored because of defensive mistakes or great skill, but those mistakes are usually only apparent when studied in slowed-down replays on TV - and we're speaking of fractions of a second too slow or centimeters too far away to stop a cross etc. In FM we're speaking seconds and meters. That is infuriating to watch and SI knows it - so why not tighten up the game a bit?

Watching real-life football, if the ball is located in the final third on the far left flank, both teams are located in that upper left quarter. In FM, both teams are spread everywhere except perhaps the lower right third. The result is that there is plenty of space to run in and pass in and move in, and consequently what people see is very poor defending and no tracking back.

I'd agree with this and certainly expect pressing logic to receive much care and attention in future MEs. However, it is by no means an easy fix.

I hope that formations will mean much less in the upcoming ME just like they mean little or nothing in real life. I also hope that attributes are more absolute in the new ME.

100% disagree with this. Formations, while somewhat notational, are useful determiners of movement and space. They are far from irrelevant. Likewise, attributes cannot become absolutes. They have to interrelate or we will get totally robotic behaviour.

[wwfan]

My attacking midfielder is set just into attacking, any ball winning midfielders are set into defensive and box-to-box players are set at just above defensive.

Very little is changed in the way of how players are set, my strikers are heavily edited to make sure they pass/move/turn to shoot how I want, but the defenders/defensive midfielders are set to their general settings.

I'd suggest that your mentality settings are causing the disjointed play you are complaining about. I suspect you have two sets of players playing very differently.

Your defence believes the overall strategy is to be cautious and sit back. Hence, when the scoreline is level late in the game, they'll be content to pass it amongst themselves. If the other team is fired up and pushing, this will cause some dodgy moments and losses of possession.

In contrast, your attack believes they must attack as much as possible. They will be getting the ball forward quickly, which will stop the more defensively minded players from getting involved as often as they should, if at all. This will result in the other team being able to break up moves by overmanning the attack and attackers shooting hurriedly, snatching their shots as they are being harried and have no support.

Whereas your manually set instructions might offer a good balance between attack and defence, they will also cause both the above scenarios, more so when players are nervous or complacent.