Massive drop in determination attribute

[Bradley21]

In my network save i play with my brother one of his youth players got a coaching report where it said that the player had suffered a serious knock to his determination, it went from 16 to 4 i an instant. I can't remember the exact reason why but i'll ask him when he comes online later, but i was wondering if anybody else has seen this before because this is the first time i have seen it.

[vlobben]

Any chance of getting a screenshot of the determination attribute development? Never heard of a drop like that before.

[crewe_york]

Is he being tutured by a player with really low determination?

[Bababui]

Maybe he started smoking ganga?

[Koki]

Do you use any user files?

[HakanMild]

He probably had a psychadelic experience where his understanding of life came crumbling, his brain comprehension system was re-wired.

[QWERTYOP]

Maybe he got himself a girlfriend...

[Bradley21]

Got the screenshots from my brother, turns out the determination drop was from 12 to 2 rather than 16 to 4 like i said in the opening post. Never seen anything like this before, but it's a pretty nice feature if you ask me.

Perhaps QWERTYOP was right, a meddling girlfriend is possible

[Cleon]

That message he got is a tutor one. It's what happens when you pick a bad tutor.

[Bradley21]

The player isn't being tutored, i forgot to mention that.

[milnerpoint]

Thats quite cool if its coded to happen, although would be hugely annoying! lol

[Sikker]

There's a bug to this imo. Just had this myself for the first time

First I got a news message that a player didn't learn anything by the tutor due to differences in personalities. Though his determination raised 5 points to 20 and also learned 3 PPMs. On top of that they are both Professional and Media Friendly as the only players descriptions.

Then 2 days later he take a 10 point hit to determination due to recent off-field events.

I've logged this as a bug.

[BiggusD]

I would definitely have re-loaded if that happened to a wonderkid or something. Things like goalkeepers coming off the line to clear through balls are almost non-existent (and governed by attributes... I mean; how can doing your job as a goalkeeper be governed by an attribute? No keeper is as bad at coming off the line that he's backing off when he got 5 meters to run and the striker 30), but this is in the game? I would rather that SI concentrated on including usual and normal player behaviour, than coding random events like this into the game.

As for the OP, herr Mast there was rubbish anyways so no loss. Sikker's example sounds a lot worse.

[Sikker]

He was my up and coming AMC just turned 19 years. Half way this season he has 15 goals+assists in 9(8) games with and avr rating of 7,54.

But I guess I'll have to sell him now to keep up the good dressing room atmosphere.

I don't think a reload will help. These kind of things seem to happen anyway (my experience with former reloads in older FMs). And I know reloading most likely will kill the fun...

[THOG]

I would rather that SI concentrated on including usual and normal player behaviour, than coding random events like this into the game.

More generally, it's poor game design. I'm sure this does happen in real life on occasion, but how is an event that randomly and irrevocably destroys promising regens supposed to be anything other than completely annoying?

What next? Random manager heart attacks that abruptly end your save without warning? Or is that what the crash dumps are supposed to simulate?

[Cougar2010]

I would definitely have re-loaded if that happened to a wonderkid or something. Things like goalkeepers coming off the line to clear through balls are almost non-existent (and governed by attributes... I mean; how can doing your job as a goalkeeper be governed by an attribute? No keeper is as bad at coming off the line that he's backing off when he got 5 meters to run and the striker 30), but this is in the game? I would rather that SI concentrated on including usual and normal player behaviour, than coding random events like this into the game.

As for the OP, herr Mast there was rubbish anyways so no loss. Sikker's example sounds a lot worse.

You reload because you don't agree with a feature? Bad loser much?

Rushing out is a tendency I believe like punching, some keepers are more natural/have a preference for it than others. Either way I never have a problem with it so yet again its your tactical choices that cause it.

[THOG]

Either way I never have a problem with it so yet again its your tactical choices that cause it.

While it certainly could be that his tactical choices in the game cause it, this does not mean the behavior is realistic. It could very well mean that the AI doesn't respond realistically to certain tactical choices... which we know to be the case with many relatively basic tactical set-ups (e.g. 3-man defenses, 4231/433 defensive movement, wide movement in narrow formations, pass backs to corner takers... many of which have been acknowledged as bugs by staff).

So "It's yo' tactics" isn't necessarily a useful response to every criticism regarding tactical malfunctions given that there's a huge difference between how many tactics function in the real world and how they are represented in Football Manager. Keep in mind, SI wouldn't be working on a new match engine if the current one was perfect...

[Cougar2010]

While it certainly could be that his tactical choices in the game cause it, this does not mean the behavior is realistic. It could very well mean that the AI doesn't respond realistically to certain tactical choices.

SI wouldn't be working on a new match engine if the current one were perfect...

Depends what you mean by unrealistic.

Its a fact that some keepers are more comfortable coming off their line than others.

This combined with Biggus's choice to use classic tactics can produce odd results from time to time. If he stuck to the TC which give balanced options he wouldn't have this problem.

End of the day the ME is only as good as the inputs you give it, if you use extreme inputs you get extreme outputs.

EDIT

Sideways passes at FKs and pass backs to offside corner takers are clear bugs that happen to every user. Wide movement & defensive movement of AML/AMR aren't perfect and can be improved however GKs backing off are 100% a tactical issue.

[MSCCG]

Wow, this is some weird stuff, I've never had that happen. Sounds like it would be fun.

[THOG]

This combined with Biggus's choice to use classic tactics can produce odd results from time to time. If he stuck to the TC which give balanced options he wouldn't have this problem.

End of the day the ME is only as good as the inputs you give it, if you use extreme inputs you get extreme outputs.

You are assuming a lot here. Do you know that Biggus hasn't attempted to raise his keepers' mentality?

And if the issue is "Rushing Out", it doesn't necessarily mean that he's wrong about the behaviors being too extreme at non-extreme attribute levels or even the lowest attribute level. After all, a "1" attribute in Football Manager doesn't represent the lower end of all humanity but the lowest reasonable level for a semi-professional footballer.

If the argument here is that this behavior would never occur with a footballer at any level, the case can be made that it should never occur, regardless of attributes and tactical settings.

[Cougar2010]

If the argument here is that this behavior would never occur with a footballer at any level, the case can be made that it should never occur, regardless of attributes and tactical settings.

So are you saying whatever inputs you put into the ME it should produce realistic football?

I can't agree with that, poor tactical choices should be allowed and punished just like they would be in the real world.

[JamesB]

I don't understand most of the posts in this thread. The drop in determination isn't a bug, nor is it anything to do with the user's input. It is a random feature, and is explained by "off-field" events having taken place in the footballer's life. In this instance, it was a drop in determination, but it can also be an increase and it can be in a different attribute - like professionalism, for example. It has never happened to me either way, but I have seen numerous instances of a drop or an increase in other people's games.

[BiggusD]

So are you saying whatever inputs you put into the ME it should produce realistic football?

I can't agree with that, poor tactical choices should be allowed and punished just like they would be in the real world.

I don't understand most of the posts in this thread. The drop in determination isn't a bug, nor is it anything to do with the user's input. It is a random feature, and is explained by "off-field" events having taken place in the footballer's life. In this instance, it was a drop in determination, but it can also be an increase and it can be in a different attribute - like professionalism, for example. It has never happened to me either way, but I have seen numerous instances of a drop or an increase in other people's games.

James, we discuss the existence of features such as the one described by the OP in the game compared to features that are not in the game, like proper goalkeeper behaviour.

Cougar, what I am arguing is that some player choices are so basic that the correct choice should not be governed by sliders or attributes. The keeper hoofing a through ball away when the ball stops rolling a few meters in front of him while the opposition striker is still only a few meters outside the kick-off circle is one such basic goalkeeping duty. Yet, there are instances where he chooses to withdraw to the line instead, which looks incredibly silly, since he could just have strolled leisurely a few steps forward and had complete control. Do I need to tell him to catch the ball when it is shot in his direction too? Should I tell my players to kick the ball and not just stand around?

[Cougar2010]

Cougar, what I am arguing is that some player choices are so basic that the correct choice should not be governed by sliders or attributes. The keeper hoofing a through ball away when the ball stops rolling a few meters in front of him while the opposition striker is still only a few meters outside the kick-off circle is one such basic goalkeeping duty. Yet, there are instances where he chooses to withdraw to the line instead, which looks incredibly silly, since he could just have strolled leisurely a few steps forward and had complete control. Do I need to tell him to catch the ball when it is shot in his direction too? Should I tell my players to kick the ball and not just stand around?

Since the TC was introduced I've played approx 150 seasons of FM which is around somewhere in the region of 2,750 matches all watched on extended highlights.

I have managed a whole range of club teams at all levels inc Sweden, Malaysia, Brazil, South Africa, USA, England and Italy to name a few alongside a number of International teams.

Although only estimating I've seen what you describe maybe 10 times at most and even those instances were in the early days of the TC, I can't remember the last time I saw something like that.

[BiggusD]

Since the TC was introduced I've played approx 150 seasons of FM which is around somewhere in the region of 2,750 matches all watched on extended highlights.

I have managed a whole range of club teams at all levels inc Sweden, Malaysia, Brazil, South Africa, USA, England and Italy to name a few alongside a number of International teams.

Although only estimating I've seen what you describe maybe 10 times at most and even those instances were in the early days of the TC, I can't remember the last time I saw something like that.

Still, no need for it to be in the game at all. Along with the compulsion to try to get corner kicks and throw-ins in situations where that is literally the last thing any footballer would attempt at, and on top of that FAILING to get the throw-in, these are examples of unnecessary code. I can count the number of times I have seen someone try to "buy a throw-in off the feet of xxx" in real life on one hand, and of those, the failure to do so amounts to zero. Why is this rare occurence prioritized above crossing, passing, dribbling and shooting in FM? Does it need to be in the game at all?

[Redbyrd]

Still, no need for it to be in the game at all. Along with the compulsion to try to get corner kicks and throw-ins in situations where that is literally the last thing any footballer would attempt at, and on top of that FAILING to get the throw-in, these are examples of unnecessary code. I can count the number of times I have seen someone try to "buy a throw-in off the feet of xxx" in real life on one hand, and of those, the failure to do so amounts to zero. Why is this rare occurence prioritized above crossing, passing, dribbling and shooting in FM? Does it need to be in the game at all?

I can't be sure, of course, but certainly some features are easier to add to the game than others. A rare, but random, event that changes determination is undoubtedly far easier to put in that a signficant fix to goalee behavior in the match engine. They didn't add the first at the expense of the other. The added the first because it was easy and will continue to work on the other as the years go by.

[THOG]

So are you saying whatever inputs you put into the ME it should produce realistic football?

I can't agree with that, poor tactical choices should be allowed and punished just like they would be in the real world.

I absolutely agree that poor tactical choices should be allowed and punished, but your assumption that we must either have horribly unrealistic behaviors or have no negative consequences for poor tactical decisions is a false dilemma. The scope of possible poor choices that would realistically occur is broad enough (especially given the varying situation-relative value of any single tactical choice) that negative consequences are possible to preserve without including obviously horrible behaviors that have no benefit in any conceivable situation and would never occur.

That is, of course, assuming we preserve the current "mentality" system where a single slider serves as shorthand for such a vast array of individual tactical instructions. If we could actually define how far on average we went our keeper to leave his line in such cases, then I absolutely agree that a user setting such a slider to "3 meters" should be punished. But we don't. Instead, we have a very general instruction to play "defensively" and, to the extent that playing "defensively" will have obvious logical drawbacks in many situations, there is no need to include any blatantly illogical drawbacks too.

I'm assuming this behavior occurs because ultra-defensive mentality settings assume that the team will be under heavy pressure around their penalty area with several defenders available to clear the ball in front of goal. However, the game should be sophisticated enough to recognize that, even if the team has been instructed to prepare for such a situation and behave accordingly, such situation-specific behaviors aren't necessary until that specific situation has emerged. In other words, if the team has been instructed to prepare for a Chelsea/Barcelona scenario, the players should still be smart enough to recognize that other behaviors will be appropriate when the other side's players are still 50m away. In real life, when a manager instructs his side to park the bus, the goalkeeper never interprets it as "pretend you have 4 invisible sweepers in front of you at all times." He interprets it as "don't venture too far off your line after the bus has been parked."

[BiggusD]

I absolutely agree that poor tactical choices should be allowed and punished, but your assumption that we must either have horribly unrealistic behaviors or have no negative consequences for poor tactical decisions is a false dilemma. The scope of possible poor choices that would realistically occur is broad enough (especially given the varying situation-relative value of any single tactical choice) that negative consequences are possible to preserve without including obviously horrible behaviors that have no benefit in any conceivable situation and would never occur.

That is, of course, assuming we preserve the current "mentality" system where a single slider serves as shorthand for such a vast array of individual tactical instructions. If we could actually define how far on average we went our keeper to leave his line in such cases, then I absolutely agree that a user setting such a slider to "3 meters" should be punished. But we don't. Instead, we have a very general instruction to play "defensively" and, to the extent that playing "defensively" will have obvious logical drawbacks in many situations, there is no need to include any blatantly illogical drawbacks too.

I'm assuming this behavior occurs because ultra-defensive mentality settings assume that the team will be under heavy pressure around their penalty area with several defenders available to clear the ball in front of goal. However, the game should be sophisticated enough to recognize that, even if the team has been instructed to prepare for such a situation and behave accordingly, such situation-specific behaviors aren't necessary until that specific situation has emerged. In other words, if the team has been instructed to prepare for a Chelsea/Barcelona scenario, the players should still be smart enough to recognize that other behaviors will be appropriate when the other side's players are still 50m away. In real life, when a manager instructs his side to park the bus, the goalkeeper never interprets it as "pretend you have 4 invisible sweepers in front of you at all times."

In my case, the keeper isn't ultradefensive, but defensive (first notch - 5?), with short (1) passing, little creative freedom (5), high closing down (15) and passing aim "defender collect". The reason I have set it like this is to prevent long goal kicks from happening. The reason I want long goal-kicks from happening is that even in 12.2.2, after over two full versions of the game, the success rate of the goal kicks are still far too low - they don't ping back as through balls anymore, but often end up as an advantage to the opponent. So I want to avoid them.

The issue with keepers not coming off the line happens almost exclusively to the opponent. I scored one yesterday and can upload a video if that is requested.

I have not seen the OP's situation. It is a rare occurence, surely. So rare that it shouldn't be in the game imo.