Giving the Brazilian league respect.....

[TheMister]

Same thing with Mancini who also just returned to Brazil.

Whilst I generally agree with you that the Brazilian league (and state championships) deserve more credit than Anglos give them, I think you've picked a very bad example of a returning player with Mancini. He couldn't leave Inter quickly enough for me! And his parting shot, that he wasn't given a chance at the club, is laughable.

[RBKalle]

The point of this thread is supposed to be that Brazil is repatriating more and more of their players who have gone abroad, and they are keeping more and more of their domestic stars. While there are many factors, the main reason is simple: money. As Brazil's economy continues to expand, the ability of their clubs to pay higher salaries means that more players are content to stay home, and that the prodigals are more keen to return. All the original poster wanted is for that to be reflected in football manager. All the rest of this silly debate is irrelevant.

But for Pete's sake, look at who the prodigal sons are!!!

Players who have walked down Sunset Boulevard for a while already and just wanted home. Or, I suppose, some others who need to revive their career after a disappointing stint in Europe. And those who manage to get back on track will leave again! (Robinho, even Adriano...)

Those who are still there won't be there for long enough to prove the OP's point... Neymar never said he didn't want to move to Europe, it's just been delayed... and the kid's 18 not 25..

No matter how much money Brazilian clubs can throw at the players, there's no way they can become as attractive as a Top European League, or a Top30 Club playing in a second-rate league.

Hell, if players accept to move to Russia or Ukraine it must mean something!

Best case scenario, with tons of money invested into the league, Brazilian clubs can attract the greedy (and frankly second-rate) stars who now will move to the aforementioned Eastern Europe countries.

But expecting Gremio or Palmeiras to become as desirable as, say, Roma or Villareal (and I'm keeping actual Top Clubs/Rich Clubs out of the picture!) is wishful thinking.

Here are the top 24 transfers for Brasileirão 2010-11

10 of the top 12 are moves TO European clubs, and not even TOP CLUBS... Hernanes left for Lazio, a side that barely survived in Serie A last season and with no clear project for the future! Lazio, not Barça, not Inter Milan, not Man United... not even Arsenal...

Then let's take a look at those who moved TO Brazil from Europe...

* Maicosuel left Hoffenheim after only one season (AFAICT it was saudade), and the departure was so "bad" Hoffenheim lost money on the transfer...

* Réver played 14 minutes of Europa League with Wolfsburg before being shipped back to Brazil, with a price tag cut down by € 2M (-40% of his value)

* Ronaldinho was gotten rid of in a hurry and for peanuts by AC Milan...

* Elano (at 29) was already losing relevance in Europe, despite a decent World Cup campaign.

Then we have two players leaving Middle East's overpaid mediocrity to come back home. And some domestic transfers.

Basically, the good/young ones fly across the ocean looking for glory and money. The aging ones or those who didn't make it go back home.

Only ONE player (Maicosuel) can be sort of considered a "coup" for the Brazilian League, and even there I'm willing to bet he'll be back in Europe someday...

[PMLF]

You are missing the point, obviously if it's to compare Brazil to England, Spain, Germany or Italy, the league is not as rich or powerful yet, but compare the situation nowadays and say 3 years ago:

From your same source (transfermarkt):

Season: 2008 Transfer revenue: 114.763.440 £ Transfer expenditures: 13.415.600 £ Total: +101.347.840 £

Season: 2009 Transfer revenue: 103.773.560 £ Transfer expenditures: 24.896.960 £ Total: +78.876.600 £

Season: 2010 Transfer revenue: 106.856.640 £ Transfer expenditures: 36.449.600 £ Total: +70.407.040 £

Season: 2011 Transfer revenue: 86.922.000 £ Transfer expenditures: 51.145.600 £ Total: +35.776.400 £

Look how the transfer expenditures are growing fast. The effect of this is more players coming back and less players leaving, but it doesn't mean transfers to abroad have stopped happening.

The current new situation is not reflected well in FM, but should be.

[marcus talamasca]

I wouldn´t say that FM is disrespectful with Brazil, but maybe it´s a little frozen in time.

After a long stagnation, the brazilian economy is growing fast. It´s the 8th or 9th in the world, and by the end of decade will probably be at number 5. It´s demographics. If the brazilian economy just surpassed italiian´s or french, this will sooner of later reflect at TV, sponsor and revenue´s money to clubs.

There is absolutely no economic reason when a brazilian go to russia, or ukraine, or turkey. Brazil´s NGP is bigger that those 3 countries combined. It´s maybe a status thing, there are a whole bunch of players that dreamt about playing in Europe, even if the salary is not that good. But you can see that those clubs cannot buy top players anymore, usually mid-level guys, and only with an obscene amount of cash.

I fully understand that the brazilian league will never achieve the status or publicity given to a big european league. This is a fact, caused mostly by television. You can support Real Madrid, and watch every game even if you live in Thailand or Burkina Faso. This will never happen if you support Flamengo or São Paulo.

The technical gap is not there, IMO. Brazilian clubs usually beat their european rivals at world championships. A few of them lost, but at most cases brazilian clubs win their matches against Barcelona, Arsenal, Liverpool, Milan and so on.

It is pretty obvious that the game reflects maybe a 2003/2004 scenario, when brazilian top clubes were all broke, losing guys to the Dutch second level and so on. This is simply not the case. We see now that most clubs can keep their players for years, losing an eventual star and that´s it. Or maybe free agents.

And it is very clear the "going back home" movement, that may affect all but the superstar as Kaká.

Don´t know if FM can reflect this. This is not a simply "home sickness" thing. There are a lot of players that actually make a lot of money in Brazil. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are making around 1.000.000 USD a month, and if the brazilian market is making that kind of money it´s pretty evident that it is not an export-only league anymore. In fact, I´ll say that the league is much more an importer now.

The same issue will probably happen with Argentina in 5/10 years, maybe not that intense because it´s a smaller market but still growing.

[aderow]

Replicating the growth of the brazilian or the growth/reduction of any league is very difficult because of the fact that there are many football and non-football factors that influence the state of a league.

Dynamic League Reputation is a step in the right direction but because of the sheer complexity of replicating this, it will be a while before FM comes anywhere near RL.

If you feel that Brazil is getting the short end of the stick, like I said before, you can increase the reputation of the brazilian teams/leagues/cups etc.

[Redbyrd]

Perhaps FM 2012 should include an economic model with recessions, housing bubbles, internet start ups, expansionary and retractionary money policy by reserve banks, and so forth. And, of course, currency exchange rates must fluctuate. As it is now it seems that the economy is frozen in time. This would be complicated but it might add a lot to the game--so long as you could toggle it off when starting your save.

(Just think. For those people who play century long saves, the game could incorporate medical advances so that players can continue playing soccer at the highest level into their 60s. It could be a brave new world of Football Manager 2111.)

[L-Wiz]

interesting thread. actually just started a game as Sao Paulo. the league format is crazy. 70 games a season and a game every 3 days. think the state championship is pretty poor. won 4 out of 4 so far but some bigger clubs to come. also the overall squad (first team, reserves, U20's) is huge. massive! i've managed to sell about 8 players for combined fee of £5 million which is nice. Still have strong squad and some very promising youngsters. Enjoying being out of my comfort zone though and intruiged to see how the season will pan out.....

[ScottMac]

interesting thread. actually just started a game as Sao Paulo. the league format is crazy. 70 games a season and a game every 3 days. think the state championship is pretty poor. won 4 out of 4 so far but some bigger clubs to come. also the overall squad (first team, reserves, U20's) is huge. massive! i've managed to sell about 8 players for combined fee of £5 million which is nice. Still have strong squad and some very promising youngsters. Enjoying being out of my comfort zone though and intruiged to see how the season will pan out.....

When you are managing in the Sao Paulo State Championship in your case as Sao Paulo you will find that you will win most games when you go a "big club". The only real testers are other big clubs like Santos, Palmeiras and Corinthians but as in any other league in the world in FM it is not impossible to lose against the weaker teams so you may experience this on the odd occasion. Why do you think the Championship is "pretty poor" as you don't really give a reason? Do you mean poor quality of teams and not a challenge to manage in?

[Galo]

interesting thread. actually just started a game as Sao Paulo. the league format is crazy. 70 games a season and a game every 3 days. think the state championship is pretty poor. won 4 out of 4 so far but some bigger clubs to come. also the overall squad (first team, reserves, U20's) is huge. massive! i've managed to sell about 8 players for combined fee of £5 million which is nice. Still have strong squad and some very promising youngsters. Enjoying being out of my comfort zone though and intruiged to see how the season will pan out.....

Sao Paulo is one of the top clubs in Brazil. Within the Sao Paulo state championship the only teams that pose a threat are Corinthians, Palmeiras, and Santos. Although clubs such as Sao Caetano, Santo Andre, Ponte Preta, and Guarani can be dangerous as well.

Things get interesting once you start competing in multiple tournaments which overlap each other. At that point you won't be able to field your strongest 11 each game. So with your reserves taking the field against, say Ponte Preta things could get messy. The second half of the year, from about July to December the only tournament still left is the National championship. At that point you will have plenty of games 7 days apart from each other. That is unless you are competing in the Sudamericana which has it's final game in November.

However, Braziilian clubs which are fighting for the national title field reserve sides in the Sudamericana. The only teams that go in 100% are the ones who are in no danger of relegation from the Seria A and also have no more chances of finishing in the top 4 and qualifying for next year's Libertadores. In that case winning the Sudamericana becomes prestigious since it qualifies them for the Libertadores and it's a title they can bring home. This past season that very thing happened as both Palmeiras and Goias fielded their star players for the Sudamericana while playing their reserves in the final stages of the Seria A.

[solstar]

Regarding most posts on here I still stick to my original thinking. The Brazilian league may have improved when compared to its former self but when compared to European competitions its nowhere near that level.

The Brazilian economy has improved and with it will come improvements which are much needed but having money does nothing if the structure isn't right. The youth setup produces many players but there is still no system to control those players from leaving. It was Fifa who developed a law that forbade players from leaving until they were 18, otherwise they would still leave. The Brazilian league lacks a decent administration, one that promotes the positives of its own league. Therefore I think signing players who are past their glory years is not a good way to promote a league. And yes Ronaldinho, as has been said previously, is past it.

I found the comment on Blackburn Rovers wanting to sign him funny, clearly the poster does not follow the Premier League. Blackburn have been a total mess ever since the recent buyout. The management team is non existant and the players are simply getting on with things. They will, as has been noted previously, sign anyone.

[Galo]

Regarding most posts on here I still stick to my original thinking. The Brazilian league may have improved when compared to its former self but when compared to European competitions its nowhere near that level.

The Brazilian economy has improved and with it will come improvements which are much needed but having money does nothing if the structure isn't right. The youth setup produces many players but there is still no system to control those players from leaving. It was Fifa who developed a law that forbade players from leaving until they were 18, otherwise they would still leave. The Brazilian league lacks a decent administration, one that promotes the positives of its own league. Therefore I think signing players who are past their glory years is not a good way to promote a league. And yes Ronaldinho, as has been said previously, is past it.

I found the comment on Blackburn Rovers wanting to sign him funny, clearly the poster does not follow the Premier League. Blackburn have been a total mess ever since the recent buyout. The management team is non existant and the players are simply getting on with things. They will, as has been noted previously, sign anyone.

You clearly do not follow the Brazilian league as you couldn't even get the relegation system right-you got it confused with Argentina's. Not to mention the many other glaring mistakes in your original post which blew your credibility out pretty early on.

We will repeat for you: It was never suggested that the Brazilian league is, today as prestigious as the Premier league for example. We are discussing the striking disconnect between the Brazilian league of today vs the one represented in FM. To SI's and many other people on this board (including you) defense: The Brazilian league has improved and developed rapidly within a very short time span. It is understandable that not everybody kept pace. But it is never too late to wake up.

The Brazilian league is light years ahead of Russia and other Easter European leagues...I actually can't believe some were comparing them to each other. Today Brazil's Serie A is slightly ahead of France and slightly behind Germany. Again, this is due to developments that happened within the past 3 years. The Brazilian league in FM resembles that of 2002 and before.

[RBKalle]

The Brazilian league is light years ahead of Russia and other Easter European leagues...I actually can't believe some were comparing them to each other.

And that's why two of the Top 10 transfers of the seasons left high-profile clubs to join Dinamo Kiev and Metalist

For crying out loud... Taison left Internacional, the 2010 Copa Libertadores winner, giving up the chance to play the Club World Cup to join freaking METALIST KHARKIV!!! I dare you to find Kharkiv on a map... What have Metalist achieved in football?

See, if Brazilian Serie A was as appealing as you pretend it to be, would a player in his early 20s leave a club where he won 2 championships, 2 continental trophies to join a "Europa League filler" club in the middle of Nowhere, Ukraine?!

Today Brazil's Serie A is slightly ahead of France and slightly behind Germany. Again, this is due to developments that happened within the past 3 years. The Brazilian league in FM resembles that of 2002 and before.

You are confusing "quality of football" and "actual appeal"

Brazilian Serie A might have improved in terms of available money and in terms of quality, but in terms of general appeal you can't possibly maintain it's on par with ANY of the European Top 5. Look, even the comparison with Eastern European Top Clubs isn't gonna end up well...

Maybe fewer players are leaving (also thanks to the no U18 transfers rule) but if given the chance, most players will go for a career in Europe... better money, infinitely better visibility and probably better standard too.

[milnerpoint]

The Brazilian league is light years ahead of Russia and other Easter European leagues...I actually can't believe some were comparing them to each other. Today Brazil's Serie A is slightly ahead of France and slightly behind Germany. Again, this is due to developments that happened within the past 3 years. The Brazilian league in FM resembles that of 2002 and before.

in terms of football quality, set up quality, what are you using to compare?

I would say the Brazlian league is miles behind Germany in terms of quality and set up, infact the Germans probably have the best league and financial set up in the world at the moment.

The fact really is that South American teams are still behind Europe in terms of quality, otherwise your star players would not jump at the chance of moving to Europe as soon as they can.

[Uncle_Sam]

If the Brasileirão was actually "miles behind" Germany in footballing quality, then no one would really be buying players from it, would they? That's obviously either an absurd exaggeration or an ignorant statement.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because it once again is beside the point. The purpose of this thread was to point out the undeniable fact that fewer players are jumping at the chance of moving to Europe from Brazil, and more former stars are more apt to return, and this is not properly reflected in Football Manager.

[milnerpoint]

If the Brasileirão was actually "miles behind" Germany in footballing quality, then no one would really be buying players from it, would they? That's obviously either an absurd exaggeration or an ignorant statement.

Either way, it doesn't matter, because it once again is beside the point. The purpose of this thread was to point out the undeniable fact that fewer players are jumping at the chance of moving to Europe from Brazil, and more former stars are more apt to return, and this is not properly reflected in Football Manager.

of course they would, dont get carried away here. I havent said brazlian players are poor, and i certainly havent said that teams dont want to sign them, but the simple fact of it is, no big player from europe would ever consider a move to south america unless they are from there because the quality of football and organisation is not as good as it is over here. Germany for me has the best set up in the word, the way then run their league should be studied and copied by most countries.

I dont agree, there are no major players wanting to move to south america and there are youngsters there wanting to leave, Neymar is a perfect example, he will end up in europe within a season or two. The only players wanting to move back to south america are those who cant cut it in europe any more

[Galo]

And that's why two of the Top 10 transfers of the seasons left high-profile clubs to join Dinamo Kiev and Metalist

For crying out loud... Taison left Internacional, the 2010 Copa Libertadores winner, giving up the chance to play the Club World Cup to join freaking METALIST KHARKIV!!! I dare you to find Kharkiv on a map... What have Metalist achieved in football?

See, if Brazilian Serie A was as appealing as you pretend it to be, would a player in his early 20s leave a club where he won 2 championships, 2 continental trophies to join a "Europa League filler" club in the middle of Nowhere, Ukraine?!

You are confusing "quality of football" and "actual appeal"

Brazilian Serie A might have improved in terms of available money and in terms of quality, but in terms of general appeal you can't possibly maintain it's on par with ANY of the European Top 5. Look, even the comparison with Eastern European Top Clubs isn't gonna end up well...

Maybe fewer players are leaving (also thanks to the no U18 transfers rule) but if given the chance, most players will go for a career in Europe... better money, infinitely better visibility and probably better standard too.

And using that same chart you can see that Maicosuel and Rever both left Germany to play in Brazil, both are under 30 and still in their prime. Rever is a solid fixture on the national team.

That doesn't prove Brazil is better than Germany anymore than your lame attempt at putting the Russian league ahead of Brazil. If the Russian league and other Eastern European leagues are so great then we should see more of their clubs on the international stage right? Or at least more of their players.... Most of these kids, Andre included are drawn to big salaries and don't know any better because they put all their trust in their agents. You think Andre put any thought into his move? No...it was done for him and all he cared about was making millions per month. How sensible do you think a 20 year old kid who lived in poverty not more than 2 years ago is? He doesn't know any better.

I used to think we were simply dealing with ignorance in this thread. Now I'm starting to believe it is just prejudice. News flash: Brazil is projected(by various international sources including the IMF and World Bank) to become the world's 5th largest economy by 2016; surpassing France and the U.K. Yet I'm willing to bet everything I own that these same people knocking down the Brazilian league also refuse to believe any of that.

There is the Brazil in people's perceptions and then there is the reality that has emerged within the last 8 years. I am referring to both the country and the league.

[Uncle_Sam]

of course they would, dont get carried away here. I havent said brazlian players are poor, and i certainly havent said that teams dont want to sign them, but the simple fact of it is, no big player from europe would ever consider a move to south america unless they are from there because the quality of football and organisation is not as good as it is over here. Germany for me has the best set up in the word, the way then run their league should be studied and copied by most countries.

I dont agree, there are no major players wanting to move to south america and there are youngsters there wanting to leave, Neymar is a perfect example, he will end up in europe within a season or two. The only players wanting to move back to south america are those who cant cut it in europe any more

No, you used the vague, hyperbolic phrase "miles behind". It annoys me when people uses phrases like that because it is impossible to quantify. You intend for it to mean whatever you want it to mean, in order to strengthen your argument, when in reality it is entirely meaningless. A league that I would consider "miles behind" Germany is the Malaysian league, and you don't see clubs busting out the check books buying players from there. If you are saying Brazil is "miles behind" Germany, then as far as I'm concerned you are saying their players are poor, which is clearly not the case because not only does every club Europe do their best to sign one or more, but just about every national team is filing the paper work to naturalize one who is not good enough to get a call up for Brazil's team.

And the argument isn't whether there are German or English or Italian or whatever players wanting to move to Brazil. The argument is that Brazilian expats are returning to Brazil more so than they used to. That is happening, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

As for Brazilian players staying, yes, Neymar IS the perfect example, because he didn't leap at the very first opportunity that came his way. If you believed most of the posters in this thread, then every Brazilian youngster can not leave Brazil behind fast enough. Perhaps that was the case 10, or even as recent as 5 years ago, but it is not always the case anymore.

[L-Wiz]

Scott Mac & Galo - Thanks for the feedabck. Apologies, i just meant some of the teams in the state championship are of poor quality, not the overall brazilian league. i understand now that there are only around 3 top clubs in this first stage. i've PLayed 13, won 12 lost 1 (to corinthians 1-0 at home). so my only real test i lost. but it's good to test my squad and try out a few players. i can already see that the teams in national championship are very strong. tried to sign Thiago Neves but couldn't afford wages.

do you know if i will enter Copa Libertadores this season?

[milnerpoint]

ok they are miles behind in terms of finance, quality of stadia, appeal to foreign players, general structure of the country including infrastructure based around football. I have stated that i didnt mean anything in reference to the players but your choosing to ignore that. Why are you being so aggresive trying to defend the Brazlian league, it does not get your point across any better or make me have any more faith in what your saying.

Neymar will leave Brazil as soon as the right offer comes along, i think its good he stayed and waited until he is ready but the simple fact is he will not spend the best years of his career in Brazil, it will be spent in Europe because we have a much better footballing set up and structure. This may change over the next few years but not right away and FM cannot be expected to predict the future of the worlds economy. The top players from Brazil will still want to move to Europe but the top players from Europe will never want to move to south america unless there are huge changes over the next few years.

[drmanley]

If you want to play the prejudice card then it's probably not a good idea to include sweeping statements about groups of people as you have in this thread.

You, uncle Sam and PMLF clearly watch more Brazilian football than most Europeans probably due to availability. If PMLF as head Brazilian researcher is making recommendations to SI that are being ignored then that's clearly an issue that needs to be looked at and in which I fully support you.

However, I don't understand why milnerpoint is getting hammered for making unquantifiable statements when yours regarding the Brazilian league league being just behind the german and ahead of the French is just as subjective. And that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? The strength of one league against another can never truly be judged because there isn't any set criteria which everyone will agree on. It will always come down to a matter of opinion. I'm more than happy to accept your opinion that the Brazilian league has improved but you also have to accept that others have opinions that differ from yours.

Your examples of Maicosuel and Rever aren't the best as one was homesick and the other couldn't get a game.

[RBKalle]

And using that same chart you can see that Maicosuel and Rever both left Germany to play in Brazil, both are under 30 and still in their prime. Rever is a solid fixture on the national team.

Maicosuel was homesick and came back to Brazil, we'll see if he'll move again...

Rever has ONE CAP for the national team... hardly "a solid fixture" there...

That doesn't prove Brazil is better than Germany anymore than your lame attempt at putting the Russian league ahead of Brazil. If the Russian league and other Eastern European leagues are so great then we should see more of their clubs on the international stage right?

UEFA Cup 2005, 2008 and 2009. UEFA Super Cup 2008 and 2009... And consistently ok showings in European Cups for years... but that's not the point of the topic.

Or at least more of their players....

You mean those who play in EPL or those who stay in Russia and win European Cups there?!

Most of these kids, Andre included are drawn to big salaries and don't know any better because they put all their trust in their agents. You think Andre put any thought into his move? No...it was done for him and all he cared about was making millions per month. How sensible do you think a 20 year old kid who lived in poverty not more than 2 years ago is? He doesn't know any better.

Fair enough.

But if the Brazilian League can't provide that kind of contracts, then it means it's not as advanced as you make it to be... But you know too well it's not all about money...

If for some odd reason a Russian tycoon decided to turn an Icelandic club into the next big thing in football, a young and talented Brazilian kid would relocate to Reykjavík for £100.000 p/w even though the level of the league would still be terrible and the media coverage to a "it's an odd world!" level?

Younger players are hungry for visibility AND money. So if a Russian club can offer them a fat contract and some European visibility, the offer would still be more desirable than a richer contract in Brazil.

At least that's what the market still tells me now. In some years we'll see...

I used to think we were simply dealing with ignorance in this thread. Now I'm starting to believe it is just prejudice. News flash: Brazil is projected(by various international sources including the IMF and World Bank) to become the world's 5th largest economy by 2016; surpassing France and the U.K. Yet I'm willing to bet everything I own that these same people knocking down the Brazilian league also refuse to believe any of that.

As said, it's not about money. Otherwise Chinese League and MLS (and J-League two decades ago) should have become worldwide football powerhouses!

Global economy affects football, but football doesn't work like the stock market

There is the Brazil in people's perceptions and then there is the reality that has emerged within the last 8 years. I am referring to both the country and the league.

When established Brazilian players will stop leaving Top Clubs there to join European Clubs as "prospects", "loanees" or even "benchwarmers" we'll change our mind.

Also, when those who come back home won't be either homesick, rejects or has-beens...

[ScottMac]

Scott Mac & Galo - Thanks for the feedabck. Apologies, i just meant some of the teams in the state championship are of poor quality, not the overall brazilian league. i understand now that there are only around 3 top clubs in this first stage. i've PLayed 13, won 12 lost 1 (to corinthians 1-0 at home). so my only real test i lost. but it's good to test my squad and try out a few players. i can already see that the teams in national championship are very strong. tried to sign Thiago Neves but couldn't afford wages.

do you know if i will enter Copa Libertadores this season?

No problem, thanks for clarifying your thoughts. I agree that most teams in the State Championships are poor but this is just to give the "poorer" clubs a chance to play the "bigger" clubs. You will enter the Copa Libertadores if you finish in the top 4 of the National First Division.

[TheMister]

I agree that most teams in the State Championships are poor but this is just to give the "poorer" clubs a chance to play the "bigger" clubs.

Nah mate. The State competitions pre-date the Brasiliero and that was the competition/s until then. Brazil is MASSIVE as you'll know, and due to infrastructure these 'regional' (in area they're bigger than lots of countries) leagues were the only option - until travel became a bit easier. You could really say each State league is like a small European country league - like the Old firm in Scotland, or the 'big 3' in Portugal, all of these then followed by much weaker clubs. It's got nothing to do with 'solidarity' and big clubs helping the wee ones.

[PMLF]

Nah mate. The State competitions pre-date the Brasiliero and that was the competition/s until then. Brazil is MASSIVE as you'll know, and due to infrastructure these 'regional' (in area they're bigger than lots of countries) leagues were the only option - until travel became a bit easier. You could really say each State league is like a small European country league - like the Old firm in Scotland, or the 'big 3' in Portugal, all of these then followed by much weaker clubs. It's got nothing to do with 'solidarity' and big clubs helping the wee ones.

Yes, that's a good description.

You, uncle Sam and PMLF clearly watch more Brazilian football than most Europeans probably due to availability. If PMLF as head Brazilian researcher is making recommendations to SI that are being ignored then that's clearly an issue that needs to be looked at and in which I fully support you.

It's not that they ignored, it's that it takes time and effort to implement this kind of change, so it's not something that can be done overnight.

[Chris M]

That doesn't prove Brazil is better than Germany anymore than your lame attempt at putting the Russian league ahead of Brazil. If the Russian league and other Eastern European leagues are so great then we should see more of their clubs on the international stage right?

Zenit won the UEFA Cup back in 2008, so they're clearly not too shabby. While your point about the Brazilian league not being given the credit it deserves is fairly valid, you seem to be commiting the same sin here with regards to Russia at least. The quality of the RPL has vastly improved over the last decade or so.

[PMLF]

Zenit won the UEFA Cup back in 2008, so they're clearly not too shabby. While your point about the Brazilian league not being given the credit it deserves is fairly valid, you seem to be commiting the same sin here with regards to Russia at least. The quality of the RPL has vastly improved over the last decade or so.

Yes, Russia and also Turkey and Ukraine are all leagues that are growing, MLS is growing as well, while some more "traditional" leagues are decadent, Italy being the most clear case although it's still a top 4 league (it's worse than Germany IMO and this is reflected in Germany surpassing them in the Coefficients ranking but I suppose this is a bit subjective). Spain is slightly decadent too, mostly because of the increasing gap between Real Madrid/Barcelona and the rest.

Probably with the changes that are going to happen in the next 10 years including UEFA's financial fair play, we are going to see the football world becoming more "multipolar" than it is now, as the big European leagues will not overspend as much as they do now. But of course this is not something to be implemented in FM now.

[Galo]

Zenit won the UEFA Cup back in 2008, so they're clearly not too shabby. While your point about the Brazilian league not being given the credit it deserves is fairly valid, you seem to be commiting the same sin here with regards to Russia at least. The quality of the RPL has vastly improved over the last decade or so.

Look, I give the Russian league all the cedit it deserves. DESERVES. That is point...it is not some third tier league but it is not better than the Brazilian league. No matter how you dice it: Quality of players, quality of clubs, stadiums, attendence, etc... A rich tycoon here and there able to provide bloated contracts are notwithstanding. Just look at how many Russians buy clubs in England for example. Doesn't mean the Russian league is better than the EPL.

Past UEFA champions don't tell us anything. Russian clubs PLAY in the UEFA and Champions league year after year. It's not like they are winning it all the time. Just a few of the leagues who have had champions in the past: Hungary, Sweden, Belgium, Turkey, and the former Yugoslavia. I wouldn't rank any of those leagues as a top league. Those leagues send clubs to continental competitions year after year after year. Brazil doesn't obviously as it's clubs participate in the Libertadores and Sudamericana. I gurantee you that if Brazilian clubs were somehow able to participate in UEFA or the Champions League many of you here would be singing a different tune.

Oh, and on the economic side of things one poster mentioned that by using that criteria China and USA should already have surpassed Europe. You forget one little detail: China and the USA do not care about football. Sure, the MLS has come a long way. But any American who is being honest with himself will tell you that the sport and the league will never come close to touching the big 3 in that country ( American Football, Basketball, Baseball). China also does not have the passion for the sport like Brazil and Europe does.

A look at the world's top ten economies currently, and you will see that only 6 of them are football nations: Germany, France, U.K., Italy, Brazil, and Russia. So as Brazil's economy continues to rise (from it's current spot at 8th to 5th by 2016 for example) so will many factors associated with the country's number 1 sport. By WC 2014 alone there will already be massive improvements. Most notably to the stadiums.

[LeoVieira]

This thread is... weird. :o

Disregarding all the tl;dr itt, anyone who watches the brazilian league and play FM know that it ain't right when top clubs keep signing random 34 years old nobodies, a bunch of random foreigners (when you can only play 3 of them) and random overrated (in FM) players from Bulgaria or w/e. The way the game simulates transfers in Brazil doesn't reflect in any way what is actually happening irl.

Now, the fact that it's the dream of every brazilian kid to play for Metalist Kharkiv is kinda irrelevant, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[ScottMac]

Nah mate. The State competitions pre-date the Brasiliero and that was the competition/s until then. Brazil is MASSIVE as you'll know, and due to infrastructure these 'regional' (in area they're bigger than lots of countries) leagues were the only option - until travel became a bit easier. You could really say each State league is like a small European country league - like the Old firm in Scotland, or the 'big 3' in Portugal, all of these then followed by much weaker clubs. It's got nothing to do with 'solidarity' and big clubs helping the wee ones.

Yeah i actually didn't know too much about the history of the League so thanks for the history lesson I should probably have phrased what i said a little better as i didnt mean the point in the State Leagues was just for weaker teams to play bigger teams although the way i said it before does give that impression.

[djsanj]

PMLF you are actually my idol, lol. i love playing in the brazilian league on FM, and it would definitely be better if you could sign some veteran brazilian players

[cruyff14]

And using that same chart you can see that Maicosuel and Rever both left Germany to play in Brazil, both are under 30 and still in their prime. Rever is a solid fixture on the national team.

That doesn't prove Brazil is better than Germany anymore than your lame attempt at putting the Russian league ahead of Brazil. If the Russian league and other Eastern European leagues are so great then we should see more of their clubs on the international stage right? Or at least more of their players.... Most of these kids, Andre included are drawn to big salaries and don't know any better because they put all their trust in their agents. You think Andre put any thought into his move? No...it was done for him and all he cared about was making millions per month. How sensible do you think a 20 year old kid who lived in poverty not more than 2 years ago is? He doesn't know any better.

I used to think we were simply dealing with ignorance in this thread. Now I'm starting to believe it is just prejudice. News flash: Brazil is projected(by various international sources including the IMF and World Bank) to become the world's 5th largest economy by 2016; surpassing France and the U.K. Yet I'm willing to bet everything I own that these same people knocking down the Brazilian league also refuse to believe any of that.

There is the Brazil in people's perceptions and then there is the reality that has emerged within the last 8 years. I am referring to both the country and the league.

Rever didn't even play a game for Wolfsburg that's why he returned and as for Maicosuel he has been sold back to Botafogo but if they fail to pay the remaining 1 million he will return to Hoffenheim and they have said that they will loan him out somewhere as he struggled to get into there first team last year and doesn't feature in their future plans for this season so by all accounts on both these players they were deemed a failure in Germany. So pretty bad examples there mate.

Oh and I would hardly call Rever a mainstay in the Brazilian national team with one cap to his name.

[Galo]

Rever has been on every call up list since WC 2010. Four games including the most recent friendly against Argentina.

[cruyff14]

Rever has been on every call up list since WC 2010. Four games including the most recent friendly against Argentina.

I know Wikipedia isn't the greatest but it says he has only played in one Brazil game. Anyway it doesn't hide from the fact he had to go back to Brazil to get a game as he NEVER played for Wolfsburg which would deem him a failure in Europe in my eyes.