These forums

[FrazT]

Kriss-

I hope you enjoyed your night off- the points you have made abaove about over zealous post reporting and the backlog you came back to surely gets straight to the point of the forums and their current problems.

The moderating in GQ, which by definition gets the most visits and presumably the most threads, has been sparse in periods for months. The SI staff, who have moderating responsibilities, do not use them often enough and only if there is an extreme problem and often just within the working day. That then leaves about 4 others who regularly visit GQ, so consequently there are many times, outwith SI working hours,, when moderating is required and is not taking place. A thread that gets some Mod input early can often be controlled, but without that input, can run out of control, thereby requiring much more Mod input. This is not a criticism of the current Mods, but of their lack of numbers.

I have mentioned this before but why, if there are 50 posters with moderating responsibilities, does the Support for PC Users forum get no imput from SI staff for weeks on end? Surely someone could be allocated to spend 10 minutes every day to check the forum and give some input, to what are usually reasonably well known issues? The lack of any response at all does not give off the correct impresssion to SI customers who are asking for help.

We all appreciate the work the Mods do and support the ideas of the forums, but there is no doubt that the more experienced forum users are falling by the wayside at the moment.

Maybe the answer is to appoint forum administrators who can monitor threads, give advice and warnings about unacceptable behaviour, but require to involve a full Moderator to carry our bans etc.

Anyway, have a good weekend.

[FrazT]

Re previous post- this was for Kris, not Kriss

[Kris]

I agree with your points Fraz, hopefully things can be improved in this respect. And I promise Ill spend some time in TQ Forum

On another note, after having a chat with ched via email and discussing the issues I had along with reviewing his posting history (which shows ched is an active constructive contributor to the community) I've removed his ban.

Ive also asked the forum software developers to not allow reported posts on closed threads or where a moderator has taken action (and then tagged the post as reviewed).

Be interested in their response.

[FrazT]

Ive also asked the forum software developers to not allow reported posts on closed threads or where a moderator has taken action (and then tagged the post as reviewed).

Kris- thanks again for your response and at least taking on board some thoughts for the future. The above point you made has got to be good because there are many times when I look at a thread and wonder if a post or threrad has been reported as there is no clue on the thread if this has taken place. Some sort of sign to other users that the thread/post has been flagged would cut down your work and stop multiple reporting.

[Guest]

Thanks for the update to the community Kris as the saying goes it's the little things that count.

As for the modification to the RP function was it a case of why the heck hasn't someone thought of that before?

Always the simple ideas that are the best.

[Ackter]

I think the main problems with the Support forums is that they're hidden away down at the bottom - easy to forget about.

If they were in a more prominent position on the forums I think they'd get a little more attention.

[Kris]

That and dxdiag logs are uesless for the vast majority of cases, dont know why we ask for them :/

[Ter]

The SI staff, who have moderating responsibilities, do not use them often enough and only if there is an extreme problem and often just within the working day.

I don't know what you expect of the SI staff to be honest. During the working day our work takes priority, not dealing with things on the forums. That is always going to be the case unless our duties involve interacting on the forums (like the QA guys in the Bugs Forum).

I also don't think it's fair to expect or require us to do stuff on the forums outside our working hours either (although a lot do). That is why we have moderators. We can't be on the forums all the time and while everyone at SI has 'moderator' rights not everyone is active on the forums.

You are correct that we could do with some more active moderators and that will happen once we get the ball rolling with some other changes that Miles may have touched upon in a previous post. It's probably going to be the biggest forum shake up since the CM3.com days and I for one am looking forward to it and I'm hoping to see some of my suggested changes implemented

[Michael F]

Ter - did you have any part in the design of the new site at all?

[Ter]

What new site?

[McTavish]

Interesting thread. What I find most surprising is that the OP is somehow blaming the FM community for what essentially is an SI problem. It's the very nature of any public forum (especially gaming forums) for people to be rude and obnoxious, and this in turn encourages others to respond in kind. If this sort of behaviour isn't moderated it soon gets out of hand and before long you end up with a pretty unpleasant environment for everyone.

I fully appreciate that SI staff are busy with other stuff and cannot be expected to moderate the forums themselves, either in office hours or in their own time.

But these forums are vastly popular and the majority of people visiting them are FM fans who purchased the game. It's worth keeping these people happy, even though there's no external advertising on the forum. In a business sense it would surely be worth employing some people specifically to moderate the forums.

They'd need to do stuff like:

- move useless posts to a useless posts section.

- give infractions for useless posts.

- delete abusive posts.

- give warnings for abusive posts.

- ban users for repeated useless or abusive posts.

- close useless topics.

This might seem like alot of work given the current standard of posts but after a short time people would get the general idea and actually spend some time considering what they write before posting. Before you know it alot less moderation would be required.

I also think there's far too many new threads being started. Mods could help this situation by adding a few more general stickies such as player recommendation threads for each position, training guides etc.

In the bugs section the list of reported issues needs to be updated regularly (and locked) to reflect whats bugs are known about and being worked on. This would quarter the forum traffic and would leave players feeling much more satisfied and less frustrated if they know their problem is being looked at.

[heathxxx]

Sadly though, people seem very quick to whine about bugs and problems in GQ - PRIOR to looking in the bugs forum or known issues.

[FrazT]

Originally posted by Ackter:

I think the main problems with the Support forums is that they're hidden away down at the bottom - easy to forget about.

If they were in a more prominent position on the forums I think they'd get a little more attention.

I agree and this can be the reason for little forum user input. It doesnt, however, take away from the fact that there are long periods without SI/Mod input and that is the point I was making- if it is there, it needs to be supported.

[FrazT]

Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The SI staff, who have moderating responsibilities, do not use them often enough and only if there is an extreme problem and often just within the working day.

I don't know what you expect of the SI staff to be honest. During the working day our work takes priority, not dealing with things on the forums. That is always going to be the case unless our duties involve interacting on the forums (like the QA guys in the Bugs Forum).

I also don't think it's fair to expect or require us to do stuff on the forums outside our working hours either (although a lot do). That is why we have moderators. We can't be on the forums all the time and while everyone at SI has 'moderator' rights not everyone is active on the forums.

You are correct that we could do with some more active moderators and that will happen once we get the ball rolling with some other changes that Miles may have touched upon in a previous post. It's probably going to be the biggest forum shake up since the CM3.com days and I for one am looking forward to it and I'm hoping to see some of my suggested changes implemented </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ter- I was not criticising any of the SI staff in any way and accept completely that you have to have a life outside your job and the forum. The point I was making was that, within this thread, we were advised that there were 50 or so people with moderating responsibilities. I was suggesting that while that may well be true in theory, there were very few who use this responsibility, outwith the working day, thus overloading the other Mods who do try and frequent the forums regularly.

[Kris]

There are 50 or so people with moderator access. This includes SI/Sega. So not 50 mods but 50 who have the tech forum abilities or better.

Apologies if I caused confusion.

[FrazT]

No apology required altho that may help to allay some criticism of why there can be a shortage of Mods sometimes. I wanted only to reassure Ter and the rest of the SI guys that no criticism of them was stated or implied.

[Michael F]

Originally posted by Ter:

What new site?

I could of sworn there was going to be a new site, this was ages ago mind

[Ched]

Just out of curiosity, why is it that all the RPs end up with Kris?

Obviously if he is here every day then i supppose it doesn't create that much of a back log, but if he's away for a while i can see how they may build up.

On a related note, why doesn't the forum show when people are banned/warned etc consistently? Some time ago (back a few pages on this thread) i commented that a blatant troll hadn't been banned, kris then told me he had, surely the problem of repeat RPs would be remedied if:

A) there was some way of bringing to the users attention that a post has already been flagged by another user.

B) users are indicated as banned/warned etc (it happened to ched...banned, but not to the original ched - and doesn't happen to all trolls etc that get banned?)

C) users are unable to flag posts in threads that have already been tended to by a mod - i'm still not sure i actually did do this, but it is one of the accusations levelled at me - why not simply make it impossible to flag a post that has been reviewed? Removing any possible confusion.

Obviously i appreciate there are software constraints with regard to the forum, but many problems could be removed (or at least reduced) if the mods actions were more visible.

Needless to say i won't be flagging anything again, i'll let the mods forage for any infringements.

Anyway, glad that mess is over. It wasn't fun.

[dudester]

Welcome back to the forums Ched.

[dafuge]

Originally posted by Ched:

Just out of curiosity, why is it that all the RPs end up with Kris?

Obviously if he is here every day then i supppose it doesn't create that much of a back log, but if he's away for a while i can see how they may build up.

On a related note, why doesn't the forum show when people are banned/warned etc consistently? Some time ago (back a few pages on this thread) i commented that a blatant troll hadn't been banned, kris then told me he had, surely the problem of repeat RPs would be remedied if:

A) there was some way of bringing to the users attention that a post has already been flagged by another user.

B) users are indicated as banned/warned etc (it happened to ched...banned, but not to the original ched - and doesn't happen to all trolls etc that get banned?)

C) users are unable to flag posts in threads that have already been tended to by a mod - i'm still not sure i actually did do this, but it is one of the accusations levelled at me - why not simply make it impossible to flag a post that has been reviewed? Removing any possible confusion.

Obviously i appreciate there are software constraints with regard to the forum, but many problems could be removed (or at least reduced) if the mods actions were more visible.

Needless to say i won't be flagging anything again, i'll let the mods forage for any infringements.

Anyway, glad that mess is over. It wasn't fun.

As far as I know, reported posts will go to all people with moderator privileges, it sounds like in your case Kris was the only one doing something about that at that particular time.

There was an issue with the forum software where the status of users would not be updated in inactive threads, which meant that often we couldn't see what action had been taken by the mods in a closed thread. I'd be interested to hear if that has been resolved.

[Ter]

Just out of curiosity, why is it that all the RPs end up with Kris?

They don't, they go into a queue that people with moderator rights can see by accessing the control panel. You can set this up to send you e-mail alerts, although it doesn't seem to be working for me any more.

On a related note, why doesn't the forum show when people are banned/warned etc consistently? Some time ago (back a few pages on this thread) i commented that a blatant troll hadn't been banned, kris then told me he had, surely the problem of repeat RPs would be remedied if:

It will only show if the user's status is updated by a moderator.

there was some way of bringing to the users attention that a post has already been flagged by another user

The forum software doesn't support this

users are unable to flag posts in threads that have already been tended to by a mod

The forum software doesn't support this

Obviously i appreciate there are software constraints with regard to the forum, but many problems could be removed (or at least reduced) if the mods actions were more visible.

Yeah, and there isn't much we can do about it as we aren't able to alter the forum software ourselves

[Ched]

Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just out of curiosity, why is it that all the RPs end up with Kris?

They don't, they go into a queue that people with moderator rights can see by accessing the control panel. You can set this up to send you e-mail alerts, although it doesn't seem to be working for me any more.

On a related note, why doesn't the forum show when people are banned/warned etc consistently? Some time ago (back a few pages on this thread) i commented that a blatant troll hadn't been banned, kris then told me he had, surely the problem of repeat RPs would be remedied if:

It will only show if the user's status is updated by a moderator.

there was some way of bringing to the users attention that a post has already been flagged by another user

The forum software doesn't support this

users are unable to flag posts in threads that have already been tended to by a mod

The forum software doesn't support this

Obviously i appreciate there are software constraints with regard to the forum, but many problems could be removed (or at least reduced) if the mods actions were more visible.

Yeah, and there isn't much we can do about it as we aren't able to alter the forum software ourselves </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that pretty much answers everything.

Cheers for the response.

[Guest]

Kris mentioned a few days ago about looking into the software to create some sort of flag when a post has been reported & also preventing post reporting on closed threads.

Surely with the rigyt programming the software could be configured for this.

Also welcome back Ched & play nice.

[FrazT]

Clearly an urgent update of the forum software would be a good start.

[Ter]

Like I said, there isn't much we can do about updating the forum software bar changing to something else which would probably have different issues.

[Cosmo-poof]

Originally posted by FrazT:

Clearly an urgent update of the forum software would be a good start.

FrazT, software often tends to be a very complex system with many interconnections. If you replace a big software system with a different system, problems will arise, even if they are very similar (for instance an update of the forum software)

In some companies, upgrading software to a newer version means a lot of work by different people and can easily cause costs in a 6-digit-number and last for several months.

Now of course, upgrading the forum might be easier, but still, what might it affect? A complete prune of old threads because they are not compatible? Loss of certain features that people like but don't exist in the new version anymore? Impact on server infrastructure and/or hardware requirements?

A forum does not really generate revenue. It mainly causes costs. Still, SI offer a good one to their fans and supporters as a means for discussion and community purpose. But please understand, that the forum is not the main concern for a company that implements games. (And does a really good job at that).

[FrazT]

Kris mentioned a few days ago about looking into the software to create some sort of flag when a post has been reported & also preventing post reporting on closed threads.

My comment was not suggesting that upgrading the forum software was either easy or cheap but based on the positive comments from Kris elsewhere in the thread that he was looking into this. I was merely encouraging any update that made administrating the forum easier for the Mods and clearer for the users.

[Kris]

All Infopop/Groupee (who develop our forum software) updates have been backwards compatible so Id hope a small change in one of their modules is the same.

Groupee are always interested in new ideas so hopefully we'll get some response.

[Michael F]

Kris while your online, any chance of getting rid of some old sticky's (we have creeped back up to 11) & updating the forum headers?

Changes to make

Update Latest Patch Version in Forum Header.

Maybe unsticky the FM08 trailer (its in the forum header anyway)

Unsticky Podcast & update dates in forum header (already there)

Unsticky the fanzine one too as there will probably be a new one soon (if they are sticking to their one per month idea)

The SI are hiring & want to work on FM Live ones will go once the deadline for entries has past most probably, as will the research vacencies one.

It just seems like a chore having to scroll half way down the page to read normal threads, anyone agree?

[Mike7077]

Originally posted by Michael Foster:

Kris while your online, any chance of getting rid of some old sticky's (we have creeped back up to 11) & updating the forum headers?

Changes to make

Update Latest Patch Version in Forum Header.

Maybe unsticky the FM08 trailer (its in the forum header anyway)

Unsticky Podcast & update dates in forum header (already there)

Unsticky the fanzine one too as there will probably be a new one soon (if they are sticking to their one per month idea)

The SI are hiring & want to work on FM Live ones will go once the deadline for entries has past most probably, as will the research vacencies one.

It just seems like a chore having to scroll half way down the page to read normal threads, anyone agree?

I was just thinking along these lines myself.

[tgarve999]

a feature to see if established posters or SI/SEGA/MODS had posted in a topic would allow me to quickly see the ones worth reading with proffesional opinion in if it would be possible

[Barnzy]

Dont like the sound of that tbh, I have seen many new users come on and start some very interesting threads, your option means many of these would go unnoticed.

[playmaker]

Originally posted by Michael Foster:

Kris while your online, any chance of getting rid of some old sticky's (we have creeped back up to 11) & updating the forum headers?

Changes to make

Update Latest Patch Version in Forum Header.

Maybe unsticky the FM08 trailer (its in the forum header anyway)

Unsticky Podcast & update dates in forum header (already there)

Unsticky the fanzine one too as there will probably be a new one soon (if they are sticking to their one per month idea)

The SI are hiring & want to work on FM Live ones will go once the deadline for entries has past most probably, as will the research vacencies one.

It just seems like a chore having to scroll half way down the page to read normal threads, anyone agree?

If the fanzine thread is not consistently getting viewed (must admit I've not really kept track) then it probably doesn't need to be sticky any more. There will be another issue out shortly.

[leftback in the changing room]

I know we stopped talking about how to improve the forums in general about one month and ten pages of threads ago, but...

If we are going to see more mods on GD/GQ then I believe that automatically holding new members on post mod, even if it's only for a couple of days (or even a few hours if they prove to be particularly insightful) would vastly benefit the quality of both the threads posted and replies.

Too many threads are started by people with a grievance to air that they might voice better - or retract - with the calm intervention of a mod, rather than 20 frothing-at-the-mouth-ST*U-type replies.

The downsides are unfortunate:

- A massive increase on mod workload, as they would have to be active rather than reactive

- Endless threads of "Why am I still on postmod" (akin to the almost unreadable BBC 606 forums)

- Possible allegations of mod bias: suggestions only 'favourable' posters would come out of post mod and not those with legitimate, if poorly worded, complaints would be almost endemic.

However the overall atmosphere would improve, the quality of the posts on here would increase significantly and the reputation of the GD/GQ forum in particular would improve. Vastly more so than with an overtly complicated system of bans.

Comments and questions welcome

[Guest]

Post modding is a good idea in princple however I think the sheer bulk of trafic throughout the forum as a whole would make it alomst impossible to manage efficiently.

As you rightly point out the 606 site as an example & THB it's a nightmare, by the time a post has been approved you can find the the thread as developed beyond the posters remarks & thinks just look messy.

[leftback in the changing room]

Originally posted by Barside:

Post modding is a good idea in princple however I think the sheer bulk of trafic throughout the forum as a whole would make it alomst impossible to manage efficiently.

That's the biggest problem - when a game or patch was released you'd need 100 mods active at a time, not 10 (or 1 as you have now!)

As you rightly point out the 606 site as an example & THB it's a nightmare, by the time a post has been approved you can find the the thread as developed beyond the posters remarks & thinks just look messy.

The 606 forums are the perfect "how NOT to do it" example. They really are awful.

[Barnzy]

Posted this in another thread but.......

I really hate the rolleyes smily it really really annoys me, basically someone making a good point becomes sarcastic or patronising.

Needed to get that off my chest.

[Barnzy]

Forgot to add can we get rid of this, it only angers people and serves no usefulness in the forums what so ever.

[Michael F]

This thread died about 7 pages ago Barnzy, now its just pointless arguements & people repeading what has been said in the first 20 pages. Time for Miles to say a few final thoughts & lock this thread me thinks

[Seagulls Forever]

Just a small and very quick and easy thing, which might help a tiny bit for the forgetful, though probably not for the malicious.

How about a tiny mod to the CSS to set the background to the textarea we type our messages in to an image, which will be coloured so as not to prevent typing easily (ie maybe a green background and white text to fit other things on the forum) with text written in the picture stating that certain behaviour will get you banned, or reminding you to do something or whatever.

You could make the url of the image rotate.php and have that php file simply choose an image and spit it out, so that you can rotate images, but all the scripting is carried out separate from the forum. Only possible downer is browser caching, but that's easily gotten around.

[Kris]

Michael : Can you email me the changes please and Ill do them.

Seagulls: Worth a look at.

[andyinuk]

Originally posted by dafuge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Just out of curiosity, why is it that all the RPs end up with Kris?

Obviously if he is here every day then i supppose it doesn't create that much of a back log, but if he's away for a while i can see how they may build up.

On a related note, why doesn't the forum show when people are banned/warned etc consistently? Some time ago (back a few pages on this thread) i commented that a blatant troll hadn't been banned, kris then told me he had, surely the problem of repeat RPs would be remedied if:

A) there was some way of bringing to the users attention that a post has already been flagged by another user.

B) users are indicated as banned/warned etc (it happened to ched...banned, but not to the original ched - and doesn't happen to all trolls etc that get banned?)

C) users are unable to flag posts in threads that have already been tended to by a mod - i'm still not sure i actually did do this, but it is one of the accusations levelled at me - why not simply make it impossible to flag a post that has been reviewed? Removing any possible confusion.

Obviously i appreciate there are software constraints with regard to the forum, but many problems could be removed (or at least reduced) if the mods actions were more visible.

Needless to say i won't be flagging anything again, i'll let the mods forage for any infringements.

Anyway, glad that mess is over. It wasn't fun.

As far as I know, reported posts will go to all people with moderator privileges, it sounds like in your case Kris was the only one doing something about that at that particular time.

There was an issue with the forum software where the status of users would not be updated in inactive threads, which meant that often we couldn't see what action had been taken by the mods in a closed thread. I'd be interested to hear if that has been resolved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yea I got told off by an un-named SI staff one morning for reporting too many posts that were bring dealt with already

[Michael F]

Originally posted by Kris:

Michael : Can you email me the changes please and Ill do them.

Sent to gmail account Kris

[Kris]

Dafuge : No, statuses still arent updated unless the thread is.

[LFC Lloydy]

It's the first time I have looked at this thread for about two months and things don't seem to of moved on at all. I would have thought that more would be happening by now.

Is there any word on what is being planned?

[Ched]

Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:

It's the first time I have looked at this thread for about two months and things don't seem to of moved on at all. I would have thought that more would be happening by now.

Is there any word on what is being planned?

I think it was mentioned a few pages back that changes are planning to be made within the next few months - nothing soon unfortunately.

[Sydney FC06]

Not sure if it has been suggested before, but I saw another forum which had a sub-forum called "vent your spleen" where people that were unhappy and negative could specifically post in there. Obviously it is modded still, but it means the main forums are a nicer place.

[Kees04]

Just read the start of this thread and have to admit that the reason I stopped posting on the board is due to all the negativity.

You post something and someone has a smart comment which is completely pointless! People acting above their station by telling people what to do etc

I like the ideas about more mods to check on things as they happen, also the idea for short term bans for unneeded posts and rude posts.

We need to make this as good as it was when I first got here and a more friendly place.

I remember coming on here at the beginning and posting in some good debates and this, I feel, helped me get the role of a beta tester, however soon after I just got bored of the constant moaning and negativity about this & that.

I feel if the board gets back to a more happy/ constructive place then it can only help the game in the future as more people from SI & Sega would be able to come on here within any crap.

I'd suggest some kind of screening for users when they sign up or similar, would be hard to implement, but the sooner the better in my opinion.

[Kees04]

Just had an idea that I think would work EXTREMELY well.

Instead of screening like I suggested before you could have a forum that is restricted to all users, and only users who demonstrate the correct 'attributes' would be allowed access to this, that way the more constructive and thought minded among us can be better used to chat with the people from SI & Sega, what do people think?

[birdy123]

Originally posted by Kees04:

Just had an idea that I think would work EXTREMELY well.

Instead of screening like I suggested before you could have a forum that is restricted to all users, and only users who demonstrate the correct 'attributes' would be allowed access to this, that way the more constructive and thought minded among us can be better used to chat with the people from SI & Sega, what do people think?

How would you judge the attributes though?

New users would be hard done by as well.

Could perhaps have a forum with resticted access, but to have 'parallel' forums, if that's what you're suggesting, wouldn't help at all imo.