Young players cannot be tutored due to senior squad role, help?

I just started an AS Monaco save on which young players like Lucas Ocampos (19) and Geoffrey Kondogbia (21) cannot be tutored because they already have a senior role in the squad (shown in the suitable tutors menu). Players like Anthony Martial (17) and Yannick Carrasco (20) can be tutored.

Am I doing something wrong or has tutoring requirements been changed from FM14 to FM15 for it was certainly possible to tutor any U24 player in FM14 as long as all other tutoring requirements were met?

If it has changed when does a player reach this "senior role status" so that he is no longer is eligible for tutoring? Is it dependent on reputation or current ability.

I've also noticed some older players with low squad status can't be tutors. That's a bit daft.

It needs to be re-worked a bit - under the current system, Giggs couldn't have tutored Januzaj last season because he was a back up and Januzaj was a first teamer under Moyes.

You can always just increase the squad status like making a player Dirk Kuyt a first team/key player in order to tutor a prospect with first team status, but this "senior role" doesn't seem to have anything to do with squad status. Ocampos is initially set as a rotation player and lowering his status still does not make tutoring possible. Even moving a player to the U19 team doesn't seem to work.

Edit: However I agree that it is silly that the tutor must have a higher than or equal squad status to the tutee. Another strange thing is that you cannot tutor players on loan.

I've been asking a few questions about this in a couple of other threads -

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/407085-Have-the-tutoring-conditions-changed

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/412458-Tutoring-eligibility-changing.-Bug

If you read through them you'll see that there may be a bug issue that has been logged and will hopefully be worked on. Other than that there is no explanation for what determines a 'senior role in the team'. I've just had someone in my under 21s get this status and he has barely played for the senior team

Thanks for the reply and good to know this is being looked at. I have even experienced that newly bought youngsters has the "senior role" as soon as they enter the team e.g. Eder Alvarez Balanta (21).

I was wondering if I could get some advice. In my Middlesborough save I have been attempting to tutor my youth players, however every time I do the players involved have personality clashes, is there anything I can do to address this? It seriously affects my overall team morale!

@Neil Brock

Can you explain what this senior role means? In FM14 I never experienced this and youngsters could always be tutored as long as the requirements listed here were met: http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/squad/player-development/player-tutoring

@Neil Brock

Can you explain what this senior role means? In FM14 I never experienced this and youngsters could always be tutored as long as the requirements listed here were met: http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/squad/player-development/player-tutoring

I'd also be very interested in the answer to that question.

I've had this answer from the bugs forum - 'Players that can't be tutored due to them having a "senior role in the team"... don't need tutoring as they are already at a certain level of ability.'

Clearly something under the hood is determining whether or not some players can be tutored and it does not seem to relate to the current criteria as I understand them. Therefore, there appears to be a new criteria to take into account regarding eligibility for tutoring. If it is intentional then I have no problem with it, I'd just like to understand it so I can factor it in to any desicions I make. As is stands I don't know whether to go through with some transfers because I don't know if I'm going to be able to address any personality flaws.

Some clarification would be great as this is one of my favourite areas of the game.

What is the squad status of the players that can't be tutored?

Mikelfc8 post is spot on.

The squad status is irrelevant as there is no difference between whether a player is a backup or a key player. E.g. Lucas Ocampos is set as a rotation player when you start an AS Monaco save and he already has a "senior role" and cannot be tutored. Lowering his squad status or moving him to the U19 team doesn't change anything. On the contrary players like Yannck Carrasco and Tiemoue Bakayoko can be tutored even if you make them key players and make their tutors backup players. This wasn't possible in FM14 and makes me think that squad status or senior role is being determined in some new obscure way.

What is the squad status of the players that can't be tutored?

I had it happen with hot prospects, backups, rotation players and first teamers, all of whom had suitable tutors and met all the known and well-established requirements for the tutor/tutee relationship. something new is in the mix.

Mikelfc8 post is spot on.

The squad status is irrelevant as there is no difference between whether a player is a backup or a key player. E.g. Lucas Ocampos is set as a rotation player when you start an AS Monaco save and he already has a "senior role" and cannot be tutored. Lowering his squad status or moving him to the U19 team doesn't change anything. On the contrary players like Yannck Carrasco and Tiemoue Bakayoko can be tutored even if you make them key players and make their tutors backup players. This wasn't possible in FM14 and makes me think that squad status or senior role is being determined in some new obscure way.

Did not know that - clearly something has changed. I hope SI can shed some light.

That is strange. I haven't used the tutoring much in this version, just one time and assumed it worked like FM14. You might want to raise this in the bugs forum as a "senior role" issue and see what SI have to say about it

That is strange. I haven't used the tutoring much in this version, just one time and assumed it worked like FM14. You might want to raise this in the bugs forum as a "senior role" issue and see what SI have to say about it

I have brought it up on the bug forum (see post 5) as part of an issue that saw Divock Origi first be available for tutoring, then get 'senior role' status, and then return to being available for tutoring again, all without me changing a thing. i was told the issue had been logged and have heard nothing since.

Perhaps more voices may make a difference.

Well, well... certainly could not do that before.

Well, well... certainly could not do that before.

I'll post it in the bugs thread you created to hopefully get an answer as to whether it is an intended change or not. It most likely has something to do with this "senior role feature", which seems to have altered tutoring eligibility.

I'll post it in the bugs thread you created to hopefully get an answer as to whether it is an intended change or not. It most likely has something to do with this "senior role feature", which seems to have altered tutoring eligibility.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

I really hope they are going to do something about this rather soon as there are quite a few issues with tutoring. I just noticed another issue: Only youngsters in the reserve and U19 team appears in the drop-down tutoring menu accessed through "Request tutoring" of seniors who are suitable tutors despite the same tutor being listed as a suitable tutor on the development page of first team youngsters.

An example with Oleg Gusev and Yannick Carrasco:

Another bit of info i got from the bug forum is that SI have agreed on 10 tutees max to appear on that drop down list irrespective of how many current players the senior player can tutor, so that may explain some significant absences. If you release all of the youngsters as an experiment, then the players you want to appear (like Carrasco) should be on the list as, going by the info on Carrasco's page, they are clearly eligible tutees.

I do find it interesting that the drop down list prioritises younger tutees as I have found that many tutors are far happier tutoring younger players. They seem to refuse to tutor more advanced senior squad players quite often.

I see you revived the interest on the bug forum and have uploaded your save .I hope SI manage to sort this out as it does seem to be quite buggy. I am just surprised that there aren't more complaints about it.

Another bit of info i got from the bug forum is that SI have agreed on 10 tutees max to appear on that drop down list irrespective of how many current players the senior player can tutor, so that may explain some significant absences.

I see, but what is the logic behind that change? It may mean that you have to release or loan out a substantial amount of youngsters in order to pair up two players because neither are listed as suitable options simply because of there being so many others. Especially in a big club with many high profile players your desired tutor may not be listed among the three "most suitable" tutors on the youngsters development/training page and the desired tutee not in the drop-own menu.

Why change something that works and in doing so screw it up? It's nonsensical. Even though I very much enjoy tutoring as it works (as in FM14) I would not mind changes to or for that sake a complete revamp of the tutoring system as it is probably a little unrealistic to pair up players like that, but in FM15 tutoring is more like a buggy counter-intuitive version of previous editions'.

I hope SI manage to sort this out as it does seem to be quite buggy. I am just surprised that there aren't more complaints about it.

Yeah I really do not get this either, but it's likely because many people are not that focused on tutoring and player development and/or do not know the exact requirements for tutoring, which makes irregularities harder to spot.

I see, but what is the logic behind that change? It may mean that you have to release or loan out a substantial amount of youngsters in order to pair up two players because neither are listed as suitable options simply because of there being so many others. Especially in a big club with many high profile players your desired tutor may not be listed among the three "most suitable" tutors on the youngsters development/training page and the desired tutee not in the drop-own menu.

Why change something that works and in doing so screw it up? It's nonsensical. Even though I very much enjoy tutoring as it works (as in FM14) I would not mind changes to or for that sake a complete revamp of the tutoring system as it is probably a little unrealistic to pair up players like that, but in FM15 tutoring is more like a buggy counter-intuitive version of previous editions'.

Yeah I really do not get this either, but it's likely because many people are not that focused on tutoring and player development and/or do not know the exact requirements for tutoring, which makes irregularities harder to spot.

Spot on in my opinion.

I don't get these tutor changes and I sincerely hope that they are just bugged to hell right now.

Example: I hire an international "model professional" 30 year-old for the primary purpose of tutoring my youngsters but because I don't feature him EVERY GAME he gets "The player's importance within the squad is too low to offer tutoring". Seriously, I was playing him on and off and I dropped him for maybe 5-10 games and then BAM! he couldn't tutor anymore. That's hopefully just a huge buggy mess and not a feature.

Tutoring already has a huge risk of failing or being only semi-successful: 1. They fall out and won't work together 2. Too different personalities 3. Was a success but no PPMs got learned. 4. Was a success but had little stat changes on the tutee.

Now we have these new mysterious criteria that makes it even harder: 1. Tutors have to be "important" members of the squad(squad status has no effect anymore) and 2. The tutee will get a "senior" role in the team out of the blue and cannot be taught anymore by anyone, something that can basically ruin the potential of a young player.

Buying / selling and shaping young players into professional footballers is what I enjoy the most about this game, but right now it's just a terribly frustrating experience.

Tutoring has always been a incomprehensible mess ... and it just seems like they have increased this year.

Again we get vague descriptions and no documentation on the feature. So it ends up with passionate forumites who have to reverse engineer it to figure out how it works, and what various descriptions mean.

If it is not a bug, then there is an even greater need for official documentation this year, as there are apparently many new pairing rules to follow. I think SI thought that with the three most suitable tutors/tutees system, they could get around any issues, but that hasn't really helped. Mainly because they have allowed a full tutoring list, and also there is no documentation on why three certain players are on the Most suitable list compared to others.

F.x. they have this year introduced a list for players with no suitable tutors, that show things like how many are of wrong position or too low squad status, are too young etc. ... but you have no way of knowing who they are. Potential tutors with low squad status I can do something about. But if I don't know who it is, then it is really not helpful. A mouseover that shows the list of players would be nice for each criteria.

All in all this part of the game still needs some serious work to keep even experienced players from getting frustrated, and keeping it from being impossible for new players and casual players to use properly. It is an important feature during development, and if you match players wrong, you can actually ruin your young prospect.

I agree wholeheartedly with the two previous posts.

The current situation with senior role and/or importance too low is unworkable and, in many instances, effectively breaks tutoring. I am finding myself thinking about playing older backup players rather than hot prospects who need game time to develop properly, all so I can preserve tutoring eligibility. Crazy!

I have been pondering it quite a lot and am wondering if, either deliberately or not, the role of squad status in the tutoring equation has been replaced or superceded by recent games played for the first team. (Cleon suggested as much in another thread regarding young players and senior role status).

The fact that the bug team are looking into it suggests it's a bug but some clarification from SI would be great.

I have been pondering it quite a lot and am wondering if, either deliberately or not, the role of squad status in the tutoring equation has been replaced or superceded by recent games played for the first team.

This doesn't explain the issue sufficiently since new signings often has a senior role immediately after they arrive and regardless of how little or how much they are played the senior role remains. However, it seems to only apply to youngsters with first team potential, which leads me to think that the senior role is determined by the youngster's current ability in relation to the rest of team. Also it might have something to do with the role the youngster is assigned in his first contract because it seems that if you sign young players as first team players they will have a senior role when they arrive.

In general I experience that only squad status changes through contract negotiations has any effect on the player's (and the game's) perception of the the given player's squad status, whilst changing it under Transfer Status is is ineffectual.

This doesn't explain the issue sufficiently since new signings often has a senior role immediately after they arrive and regardless of how little or how much they are played the senior role remains. However, it seems to only apply to youngsters with first team potential, which leads me to think that the senior role is determined by the youngster's current ability in relation to the rest of team. Also it might have something to do with the role the youngster is assigned in his first contract because it seems that if you sign young players as first team players they will have a senior role when they arrive.

In general I experience that only squad status changes through contract negotiations has any effect on the player's (and the game's) perception of the the given player's squad status, whilst changing it under Transfer Status is is ineffectual.

Interesting stuff again.

One thing I can say for certain is that I have seen tutees move back and forth between 'senior role' and available to tutor and tutors move back and forth between being available and having 'too low' importance.

As I posted in the bug forum, Origi could be tutored, then had a run in the team and suddenly had a 'senior role'. After a few weeks out of the team he could be tutored again. I experienced the exact same thing with Barbosa and Sinclair, but you are right, I have never seen with a player who arrived with his senior role intact.

Also, Ryan Bertrand was considered of too low importance to tutor until he had a run in the first team and then he could. After missing a few games he suddenly could not tutor again.

I can see how relative ability (to the rest of the squad) could be determining the tutor status changes, the question is does it go up and down in such short time periods (two weeks in one case) for both young and older players? Also, how does playing time feed into the relative ability equation for both young and older players? Do older players decline quicker if they are not played?

Finally, much to the annoyance of my board I have never signed a young player as a first team player due to my suspicion, which you have confirmed, that they would be unavailable for tutoring. however, I should probably have a go to see if anything can be learned from it.

Hopefully we'll get some kind of clarification on all this fairly soon because working around it is a pain.

There has recently been some work done on tutoring within the game. If you could upload a save to the FTP we can have a look to check these changes are taking hold. If you could also provide the names of the players you want to be tutors/tutees. Details of how to upload saves are here - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/405113.

Thanks.

Found this reply to this thread in the bug forum - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/418763-15.2.1-Youth-Player-Can-t-be-Tutored-Reviewed

It looks like changes are afoot.

It looks like changes are afoot.

I haven't had time to check it out yet, but if the senior role issue has been sorted out then that's great news.

As mentioned in the other thread, though, there still seems to be some problems with tutoring interactions as some young players just refuse to work with potential tutors despite the tutors having similar or fairly similar personalities. In some cases I have been able to convince the youngster to be tutored simply by trying every combination of approach and message, but that's a terribly tedious process, especially when the tutor also requires convincing, since you're forced to reload numerous times. Strangely the options for approach and message irregularly shifts slightly from load to load, which is troublesome because some combinations appear to produce the desired results more often, but they may not be available preventing tutoring unless you reload and get other options.

I understand why players with very big personality differences might not want to work closely together, but in most cases the youngster should be thrilled to have an experienced player personally assigned to his development. What 16 year old wouldn't be ecstatic to have Frank Lampard tutor him? I really hope this interaction mini-game will be improved as it's a bit of a pain to work around, but if they have fixed most of the other issues I'm content for now.

I'm hoping for a revamp at some point but I'll settle for a bit of improvement and explanation for now.

I think I must have been lucky as I've not had many refusals from youngsters, other than one driven/outspoken youngster who has consistenly refused or fallen out very quickly with his tutor. Despite his potential I have pretty much given up on him.

Most of my refusals have been from the tutors who are much more choosy in FM15 and similar to your issue with the attitudes of some youngsters. To my mind a professional player refusing to tutor a youngster is a contradiction in terms and should preclude him from being considered professional despite whatever his numerical attribute states.

It is very disappointing to know how unpredictable the approach/agreement process is from your experiences. It should not be that hard to get players matched up. I don't mind if it all goes awry afterwards in some cases as that type of unknown adds realism. I would just like to be able to trust the personality descriptors a little more and see them more closely matched by behaviours and responses. I don't doubt that a professional player will generally train well but I have no idea how he will react to a simple request and that is a problem.

I'm extremely excited for tutoring changes. It's a big part of my player development, and right now I can't get anything out of it.

But these changes aren't on the game saying that the young player has a senior role and can't be tutored which ruins wonderkids that play

SI are actually forcing you not to play youngster until they've been tutored

So they either don't develop due to mentality or due to lack of games

But these changes aren't on the game saying that the young player has a senior role and can't be tutored which ruins wonderkids that play

SI are actually forcing you not to play youngster until they've been tutored

So they either don't develop due to mentality or due to lack of games

Spot on.

So they either don't develop due to mentality or due to lack of games

Yeah, I fail to comprehend the reasoning behind this. The game is clearly not being properly tested before it's release, and I cannot see myself buying future SI releases unless they up their game significantly.

Anyway, has the changes already taken effect, are they included in an upcoming patch, or how does it work?

This doesn't explain the issue sufficiently since new signings often has a senior role immediately after they arrive and regardless of how little or how much they are played the senior role remains. However, it seems to only apply to youngsters with first team potential, which leads me to think that the senior role is determined by the youngster's current ability in relation to the rest of team. Also it might have something to do with the role the youngster is assigned in his first contract because it seems that if you sign young players as first team players they will have a senior role when they arrive.

In general I experience that only squad status changes through contract negotiations has any effect on the player's (and the game's) perception of the the given player's squad status, whilst changing it under Transfer Status is is ineffectual.

I have seen the 'Player has a senior role' for players in my squad at the start of the game, and with 'Backup' as squad status. I have also seen some with 'First team' status that could be tutored. This before I started messing around with anything.

I have seen the 'Player has a senior role' for players in my squad at the start of the game, and with 'Backup' as squad status. I have also seen some with 'First team' status that could be tutored. This before I started messing around with anything.

I see. Then, as Mikelfc8 suggested, senior role is probably a combination of the youngsters current ability in relation to the rest of the team and playing time.

It's such a shame I can't tutor my 17 year old because he has a senior role in the team. Sort it out Si.

I'm interested to know if this issue was thought about for FM16.

I find it strange that an older player with "too low" squad status can't tutor a younger player. Why can't a "backup" 37 year old with great mental stats be used as an asset to the youngsters in the team? At the very least, shouldn't he be able to tutor one of the "backups" on the U18 team?

Does it really seem that unbelievable that an older, former international-level player would spend the final years of his career helping out the next generation of players regardless of how many games he's getting? What about goalkeepers, where only player generally gets the bulk of the playing time. If I sign a veteran keeper as a backup, he can't also tutor my U18 keeper?

When Crystal Palace brought Andy Johnson back two seasons ago, it was explicitly stated that he was being brought in to help out the younger strikers in the club. He played in one match during his entire time back. But in FM, he wouldn't be allowed to tutor anyone because he wasn't a regular first-team player. There was a time a few years back when Palace signed Edgar-freakin-Davids at the twilight of his career. But of course no youth player would ever want to learn from that legend, because he wasn't getting games!

I was wondering if I could get some advice. In my Middlesborough save I have been attempting to tutor my youth players, however every time I do the players involved have personality clashes, is there anything I can do to address this? It seriously affects my overall team morale!

I was wondering if I could get some advice. In my Middlesborough save I have been attempting to tutor my youth players, however every time I do the players involved have personality clashes, is there anything I can do to address this? It seriously affects my overall team morale!

I think the questions should be:

Why are you tutoring them?

Why are you picking those players as tutors?

What is the benefit you expect for the tutee?

You need to know why you are tutoring a player and which player to pick. You tutor a player to improve their personality therefore you need to understand which tutors will do that and which will make it worse.

Okay, this is really frustrating.

I have a 25 year old winger, squad status set to backup (though he has started 12 of 18 league games), and he is able to tutor.

I have a 34 year old defender that I literally just signed, squad status backup, has only been with the club for 14 seconds, and he is also able to tutor.

But then,

I have a 25 year old defender, squad status set to Key Player (always has been), has started all 18 league games so far, and "his squad status is too low to offer tutoring."

What in the actual ****?

Reputation most likely.

It can't solely be reputation, as older players like Pirlo and van Persie are often unable to act as tutors after a season or two has passed. In my Roma save, Totti was unable to tutor because his importance was too low; in the previous season, he'd won the Serie A Striker of the Year award.

I'm thinking it's something like CA of player compared to the average CA of the squad.

So when players drop down to 2,5-2 stars they are not considered important enough by the ruleset.

it is 100% only based on CA, tested it with FMRTE, changing CA has immediate impact.

1 hour ago, H0lmesSherl0ck said:

it is 100% only based on CA, tested it with FMRTE, changing CA has immediate impact.

Well that's bloody stupid. It relies for a start on the logic that the players know what their CA's are, even when we don't! AND it gives the user an insight into CA (if player X can be tutored by Y but Z can,t CA X>CA Z but both are <CA Y) without having to rely on subjective judgement. Should clearly be using the reputation system instead.