This game is so fake

I've played this game for 4 seasons now and in this time conceeded:

approx. 15-17 own goals.

had keeper bug or freeze and conceed at least 12 goals.

conceeded 20+ from corners

conceeded 20+ free-kicks

conceeded 20+ penatlies

HOWEVER, this is how many IVE scored of the same nature, after all with the exceptions of corners which require tactics the rest should be close or similar right if SI are accurate and this game isn't programmed to balance you and keep your team close to the position it should be!

3 EVER own goals

had keeper bug 4 times maybe 5 but can only remember the 4 right now.

scored 7-8 corner goals ever! (I know tactics can decide this)

scored 2 Free-Kicks (had beckham for 1 1/2 seasons all his shots missed)

scored 4-7 penalties (not sure i've had 10 but you i'll be generous to the ME)

Amazing the difference in results, considering i've had major striker injures which means they have been hard tackling except NOT giving away the penalties!

i just conceeded two own goals in last three games under NO pressure and had far far far better free-kick takers then most but scored F**K all. Just unlucky? I doubt that.

Either i'm just unlucky or.. or.. SI have got the ME to go mental here and there to balance the league.

I wish i was over exagerting, but i've drew with Man Utd and Chelsea away from home and just lost and drew with teams located 20th and 18th in the league and i'm hull in 14th position (15th now). I've been over the last three seasons 16th, 12th, 15th and now 16th. I've signed players liek beckham, deco, defoe, skrtel, joe hart, etc. Got to FA cup final last year and lost 3-2 to a wes brown volley from 35 yrds at 85mins. WHAT?!

My position over 4 seasons is pretty much staying the same regardless of my purchases, i win unrealistic games like i beat liverpool twice this year and man city twice, draw/lose to teams who can't win anything and I conceed the stupidiest goals ive ever seen in the games i should walk it. Its a complete fix to balance the league is my theory. I aint playing a game which runs to a F**king script. I'll go play Champ Man or stay with Fifa, least i ain't losing to means ALWAY OUT OF MY CONTROL. Wouldn't complain if it happened over 1 maybe 2 seasons, but 4 seasons and its worse then ever regardless of patch 10.1 or 10.2? FU SI.

Feel Free to defend this game with ideas and theories, I only hope players find a super tactic which expolit the F**K out of the AI because it would be deserved.

you say you concede about 20 goals from corners and free kicks over 4 seasons. Thats not that bad. But if you are worried about it then have a look at where your players are positioned at corners and free kicks and what marking duties there are on.

I think the own goals thing you speak about is just about luck imo.

I absolutely love the game and want to congratulate SI on it and to coin a phrase. "It's your tactics!"

i am in season 4 had only 2 own goals

Haha, Lol.

Nevermind. misread what he said. so my comment is void.

I completly agree with the results your going on about. I managed Reading, got them to the prem GREAT!!, then signed the likes of Joe Hart, Dos Santos, Aiden Mcgeady, Jamie O'Hara, and some others whos names i can't spell without loading fm, but are rated "good prem player... 3 and a half or 4 stars". Therefore have a decent squad and manage to beat Man U 4-2 home. 1-1 away... Arsenal away 2-1 win, and a 2-2 draw at home. also six points of Liverpool and Man City. Yet lose at home to teams who are in relegation. So on that note i understand your fustration and have given up with trying to build and weaker side, as i got a consistent 16th 15th 12th 17th. Last season 17th was a joke.

Esspecialy as i came 12th the season before and spent another 15million of two players. Finaly in that season i went on a barron run of 16 games whereby i win 2..... YES Arsenal away 3-0. and Liverpool at home 1st game of the season 4-0.

Feel better?

I conceded very few own goals in my 3 seasons and have scored a ton of free kicks.

So yes, although there are plenty of well known issues with the game (I won't say there isn't) but from your examples you do sound very unlucky.

maybe your computer thinks your john barnes???

hahahaha dont be so cruel to the kid

I had similar. Playing Roma season 1 was predicted 5th. I was top with 12 games left then for some reason i was having a goal a game disallowed and coudnt buy a win. Where did i finish. 5th.

I don't think I've conceded an own goal in almost 2 seasons so far :confused:

I conceded 1 recent own goal, which actually was going in goalkeeper attempted a save, failed and it went down as an own goal

That is the only own goal from start of season one to mid January

From other users feedback i would say i'm just very unlucky so far. I've run this patch for one season so far which is my 4th season and had terrible luck lol.

I'm playing as Hull City, not sure why this should effect how much bad/good luck I get but maybe this is why. Not complaining about tactics etc, just the goals i can't prevent tactical which i would consider a "fix".

When I build up the motivation to play this game again I might try for a 5th season and if no improvements i'd deffinatly not go to a 6th haha. Sorry if my thread seems a little angry, just venting steam from what appears to be a very very frustrating season

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with being angry JJuk09 - at least you provided statistics to back up what you are saying. I am genuinely sorry to see a fellow manager have such a rotten run of bad luck/form or whatever it is. As Neil said - why not try a few seasons now with the latest patch and see how it goes? I'm not blindly defending the game (it's far from faultless!) but I have honestly yet to concede an own goal in almost 2 seasons.

I could make a few suggestions:

- If you did a similar study using real-life Premiership results, you might find that over 4 seasons, some teams do have stats that don't add up. For example, if you added up the amount of own goals Hull conceded and scored in the last 4 years, it might end up being 10 scored and 0 conceded. I havent looked at the stats, but it might. Some teams have bad luck. Stats in football don't always even out. You might get bad referring decisions 20 times in a row before you get a good one. Perhaps you've just had unfortunate stats for the last 4 years.

- If you ran FM with 10+ different teams for 4 years and your stats were always vastly against you, then I will say you've got a point. But you've just played with 1 team - luck does come into it, and you certainly don't have enough stats to prove a point.

- On the subject of beating United and Arsenal and losing to relegation teams - perhaps your tactics are set up to frustrate and counter attack teams that are favourites to beat you, but your tactics don't work as well when you're expected to win? For example, if you've got a really defensive formation with counter attack turned on, that might work well against United. However, it wouldnt work well against a team like Bolton that might play with the same instructions and you two would cancel each other out.

this game is completly bugged. me and my brother play together him with leicester me with arsenal. were both doing alright. but there are to many bugs i just dont know where to beging. just a small problem with the game or the AI is that my coach or assman recomends eduardo to take throwings instead of clichy, clichy is better at throws. and which sane person would want a finisher and player like eduardo taking throwings? no one here say any rubbish about bad coach or whatever because all of my coaches are quality, i had near enough a complete overhall.

i dont know why everyone keeps talking about tactics, all i ever hear people saying is tactics this tactics that...the problems aint consistent from game to game so everyone says tactics...does tactics make goalkeepers get constant MOM against me hmmm..i think not.

fair play to SI for making it a fairly good game but they've neglected the backbone of the game and the game appears broken for some and ok for some...take it how you want.

I'm amazed by the SI guy's answer. A new code is out and those problems should be fixed by now. Which means that we buy a game in crap condition! Maybe next year we must pay just half the price and the rest when the code is finished? What do you think about that?

to be honest if you play the same tactic every game with the same player roles and same shouts

the truth is the game has got more in depth and if your not attune to these then you will suffer

i play every game full highlights and i can see the changes happening against my side and for my side

truth is to be successfull you need to think outside the box and look at things tactics alot harder now a days and i love it but i can see the other side of the coin when people don't want to study the opposition.

i feel if you want plug and play and the old i sign so and so they should be better but be truthful how many of you watch not who scored but why and why you conceded

truth is the game has changed and many dont want to change with it i didnt at first but now i see the light and loving it

all the best for 2010

listen to people like wwfan and the tt and f

I'm amazed by the SI guy's answer. A new code is out and those problems should be fixed by now. Which means that we buy a game in crap condition! Maybe next year we must pay just half the price and the rest when the code is finished? What do you think about that?

If you would actually think about what he said, you would realize that a patch was released and to take advantage of the fixes right away, you need to start a new game. So some of the issues were fixed but the player wouldnt see them right away in his old save.

As far as the comment about the game being in crap condition when it was released, you are wrong. The game was in good shape when it was released but there were issues. The issues are being addressed as best as SI can and many issues have been fixed. There are always issues when software is released, no software is released without bugs. SI is one of the better companies who actually try to fix the issues and compared to others, relatively quickly.

Since you dont agree with those statements however, maybe you should just skip FM11.

What do you think about that?

OK fair enough. So do you think we should pay a percentage of the price upon purchase and the rest when issues are fixed? After all you wouldn't buy a new car and then take it to the garage for the first three months until you can finally drive it...

I personally think that anyone from SI responding to this post has good grace to do so. Yes, he provides figures but how do we know they're correct? He says approximately for starters. He hints that he doesn't change tactics because he says he believes that all stats should remain similar apart from corners. Why should they? Is real life football uniform? Does the tactic win the game or do the players? Don't they both?

The post is badly written, it uses swearing to get across a point and the OP makes no attempt at constructively getting around what he thinks is wrong with the game. The OP is one of the many who are unable or unwilling to accept that not everything unlucky that occurs to them in the game is a bug. They are unwilling or unable to experiment and blame the match engine's faults for their own inadequacies.

Sure the match engine isn't perfect, and there is much that could be improved upon. But is it really as bad as people keep making out? I think it is by far the best I have ever seen this game. In fact, the only bugs that have ever caused me problems are ones concerning league rules and the memory bug (which can be controlled).

Perhaps I'm at an advantage because I do not believe my tactics are infallible and I can make the decision that perhaps just what I am doing is wrong. I change things and, hey, guess what, I get better results.

If you've played four seasons I'm pretty certain all those weren't played in 10.2 (unless you speed through seasons) so I would suggest playing the game with the latest code and seeing what sort of results you get. Let us know, thanks.

im in season 6 using the new patch and i noticed that the ai seem to rip me from freekicks even ****** players with 12 for freekick were ripping me from 35 yards...

but i havent noticed anything else unusual just the amount of DFK im conceding and the lack of DFK im scoring

some might not like what iam going to say but make sure you tick at least 4 players on wall duty stopped ai scoring against me but if you leave it to default usually you will find only 3 in the wall

If you would actually think about what he said, you would realize that a patch was released and to take advantage of the fixes right away, you need to start a new game. So some of the issues were fixed but the player wouldnt see them right away in his old save.

As far as the comment about the game being in crap condition when it was released, you are wrong. The game was in good shape when it was released but there were issues. The issues are being addressed as best as SI can and many issues have been fixed. There are always issues when software is released, no software is released without bugs. SI is one of the better companies who actually try to fix the issues and compared to others, relatively quickly.

Since you dont agree with those statements however, maybe you should just skip FM11.

What do you think about that?

How much does si pay you to bumlick them? The game is still unplayable with 10.2 ... hopefully 10.3 will be the one

The own goals seem to come in for me too. Only thing is they go in my favour. I've had points saved in at least 4 of my last 10 games.

I had Torres go on a fantastic run around the box before putting in a low shot which came off the post, hit a defender in the face and went in.

Deflections into the goal seem a bit too common IMO.

Go play CM10 and then tell me this game is unplayable.

This game in general is a joke. If this game had the match engine of fm 08 or earlier and the elements of fm 2010 then yes this game would be playable. Stuff like winning a league title then next season your squad lose faith in you ... or big matches and players go on international duty. SI need to take a serious look at this version and it doesnt help when bumlickers on this forum tell them what they want to hear! Speak to truth!

Go play CM10 and then tell me this game is unplayable.

CM 10 is more playable tbh. It has a better reputation system, less data bugs and can actually enjoy the game. You seriously think you can get a long term game on fm 2010 going with such poor regen stats. Thats why i bought fm because I want a nice long term career. It was fm that copied the cm 3d engine and has mucked up this game

I'm amazed by the SI guy's answer. A new code is out and those problems should be fixed by now. Which means that we buy a game in crap condition! Maybe next year we must pay just half the price and the rest when the code is finished? What do you think about that?

How much does si pay you to bumlick them? The game is still unplayable with 10.2 ... hopefully 10.3 will be the one

The game is not unplayable as you suggest. If you would bother to take the time to look around the forums, you would see that many people are enjoying it. So to say its unplayable is laughable as is your comment about being paid by SI.

If you think the game is unplayable then why not provide the info to SI?? Send your save games and pkm files to the ftp so they can look at what makes the game "unplayable". I doubt you will do that though, its easier to sit back and just say its unplayable then actually try to be helpful

I could make a few suggestions:

- If you did a similar study using real-life Premiership results, you might find that over 4 seasons, some teams do have stats that don't add up. For example, if you added up the amount of own goals Hull conceded and scored in the last 4 years, it might end up being 10 scored and 0 conceded. .

In the 1 1/2 seasons Hull City have been in the premiership, We have conceded 6 OGs, (four of which have been scored by the wonderfully eccentric Kamil Zayette!), and scored three. So conceding 20 OGs in four years doesn't seem unrealistic unfortunately!

As for the other stats, I wouldn't have a clue where to find such info!

CM 10 is more playable tbh. It has a better reputation system, less data bugs and can actually enjoy the game. You seriously think you can get a long term game on fm 2010 going with such poor regen stats. Thats why i bought fm because I want a nice long term career. It was fm that copied the cm 3d engine and has mucked up this game

Hardly copied it, it's completely different.

I personally think that anyone from SI responding to this post has good grace to do so. Yes, he provides figures but how do we know they're correct? He says approximately for starters. He hints that he doesn't change tactics because he says he believes that all stats should remain similar apart from corners. Why should they? Is real life football uniform? Does the tactic win the game or do the players? Don't they both?

The post is badly written, it uses swearing to get across a point and the OP makes no attempt at constructively getting around what he thinks is wrong with the game. The OP is one of the many who are unable or unwilling to accept that not everything unlucky that occurs to them in the game is a bug. They are unwilling or unable to experiment and blame the match engine's faults for their own inadequacies.

Sure the match engine isn't perfect, and there is much that could be improved upon. But is it really as bad as people keep making out? I think it is by far the best I have ever seen this game. In fact, the only bugs that have ever caused me problems are ones concerning league rules and the memory bug (which can be controlled).

Perhaps I'm at an advantage because I do not believe my tactics are infallible and I can make the decision that perhaps just what I am doing is wrong. I change things and, hey, guess what, I get better results.

I said before I wrote the OP in anger and that I shouldn't of done admitted. However the point of the thread is aimed not at tactics as much as the point that the ME seems to produce the impossible to make the teams position more consistant.

I'm not saying I don't make mistakes, I've no doubt done alot to drop points over my Save with Hull City, however asking my defenders and goalkeeper to score so many own goals, most under no pressure wasn't in my game plan. Having one of the best free-kick takers be the worst in the league or wondering why the AI time their tackles better then my defenders is also not in my game plan either, yet it keeps happening. I've even started the first season with a friend (was network game before he quit and i continued the save on my own) he quit after having been frustrated (though that was 10.1 patch)

Hull in 2009 when i took charge had backroom advice saying something like "we play good against bigger repuation teams" and "poorer against similar opposition sides" I understood this and thought fine... hense no complaints. However I'm 4 seasons in with like 1-2 players remaining from the Hull team of then, why am I still getting big team results and not lower league results. In 4 season i've varied my tactics from counter to control and formations against lower clubs.. rarely does it work like against bigger teams. When it does work... guess what?! "Own goal, all even again.. oh well". Moving away from another rant lol.

All in all I'm trying not to complain but what you say and how it is are two different things, i never once said I only ever play one way against all teams or I'm complaining about tactics, I just wanna know why these clubs with no form to speak of hit their best season performance with lucky own goals, free-kicks or penalties against me so consistantly when it matters if the ME is really so balanced.

I've played this game for 4 seasons now and in this time conceeded:

approx. 15-17 own goals.

had keeper bug or freeze and conceed at least 12 goals.

conceeded 20+ from corners

conceeded 20+ free-kicks

conceeded 20+ penatlies

HOWEVER, this is how many IVE scored of the same nature, after all with the exceptions of corners which require tactics the rest should be close or similar right if SI are accurate and this game isn't programmed to balance you and keep your team close to the position it should be!

3 EVER own goals

had keeper bug 4 times maybe 5 but can only remember the 4 right now.

scored 7-8 corner goals ever! (I know tactics can decide this)

scored 2 Free-Kicks (had beckham for 1 1/2 seasons all his shots missed)

scored 4-7 penalties (not sure i've had 10 but you i'll be generous to the ME)

Amazing the difference in results, considering i've had major striker injures which means they have been hard tackling except NOT giving away the penalties!

i just conceeded two own goals in last three games under NO pressure and had far far far better free-kick takers then most but scored F**K all. Just unlucky? I doubt that.

Either i'm just unlucky or.. or.. SI have got the ME to go mental here and there to balance the league.

I wish i was over exagerting, but i've drew with Man Utd and Chelsea away from home and just lost and drew with teams located 20th and 18th in the league and i'm hull in 14th position (15th now). I've been over the last three seasons 16th, 12th, 15th and now 16th. I've signed players liek beckham, deco, defoe, skrtel, joe hart, etc. Got to FA cup final last year and lost 3-2 to a wes brown volley from 35 yrds at 85mins. WHAT?!

My position over 4 seasons is pretty much staying the same regardless of my purchases, i win unrealistic games like i beat liverpool twice this year and man city twice, draw/lose to teams who can't win anything and I conceed the stupidiest goals ive ever seen in the games i should walk it. Its a complete fix to balance the league is my theory. I aint playing a game which runs to a F**king script. I'll go play Champ Man or stay with Fifa, least i ain't losing to means ALWAY OUT OF MY CONTROL. Wouldn't complain if it happened over 1 maybe 2 seasons, but 4 seasons and its worse then ever regardless of patch 10.1 or 10.2? FU SI.

Feel Free to defend this game with ideas and theories, I only hope players find a super tactic which expolit the F**K out of the AI because it would be deserved.

Why would any of those players want to play with lowly hull ? very unrealistic in that instance. And look in real life, Liverpool beat Manchester United then lost to Portsmouth, it happens in real life also.

I've played this game for 4 seasons now and in this time conceeded:

approx. 15-17 own goals.

had keeper bug or freeze and conceed at least 12 goals.

conceeded 20+ from corners

conceeded 20+ free-kicks

conceeded 20+ penatlies

HOWEVER, this is how many IVE scored of the same nature, after all with the exceptions of corners which require tactics the rest should be close or similar right if SI are accurate and this game isn't programmed to balance you and keep your team close to the position it should be!

3 EVER own goals

had keeper bug 4 times maybe 5 but can only remember the 4 right now.

scored 7-8 corner goals ever! (I know tactics can decide this)

scored 2 Free-Kicks (had beckham for 1 1/2 seasons all his shots missed)

scored 4-7 penalties (not sure i've had 10 but you i'll be generous to the ME)

Amazing the difference in results, considering i've had major striker injures which means they have been hard tackling except NOT giving away the penalties!

i just conceeded two own goals in last three games under NO pressure and had far far far better free-kick takers then most but scored F**K all. Just unlucky? I doubt that.

Either i'm just unlucky or.. or.. SI have got the ME to go mental here and there to balance the league.

I wish i was over exagerting, but i've drew with Man Utd and Chelsea away from home and just lost and drew with teams located 20th and 18th in the league and i'm hull in 14th position (15th now). I've been over the last three seasons 16th, 12th, 15th and now 16th. I've signed players liek beckham, deco, defoe, skrtel, joe hart, etc. Got to FA cup final last year and lost 3-2 to a wes brown volley from 35 yrds at 85mins. WHAT?!

My position over 4 seasons is pretty much staying the same regardless of my purchases, i win unrealistic games like i beat liverpool twice this year and man city twice, draw/lose to teams who can't win anything and I conceed the stupidiest goals ive ever seen in the games i should walk it. Its a complete fix to balance the league is my theory. I aint playing a game which runs to a F**king script. I'll go play Champ Man or stay with Fifa, least i ain't losing to means ALWAY OUT OF MY CONTROL. Wouldn't complain if it happened over 1 maybe 2 seasons, but 4 seasons and its worse then ever regardless of patch 10.1 or 10.2? FU SI.

Feel Free to defend this game with ideas and theories, I only hope players find a super tactic which expolit the F**K out of the AI because it would be deserved.

CM 10 is more playable tbh. It has a better reputation system, less data bugs and can actually enjoy the game. You seriously think you can get a long term game on fm 2010 going with such poor regen stats. Thats why i bought fm because I want a nice long term career. It was fm that copied the cm 3d engine and has mucked up this game

poor regen stats ? you're not serious are you ? after 3 seasons, I've always noticed the regens have superb attributes on their profile ...

I could easily field 3 sides with regens I find, that's with subs also and players in the 1st team squad who wont play. That would indeed make it 60+ decent regens I could buy that I like who have absolute fantastic attributes for my Liverpool side.

Now in saying htat, times that by about 10 of the amount of ok regens also, lets not forget the attributes get better over the next 10-15 years they play in the game.

I said before I wrote the OP in anger and that I shouldn't of done admitted. However the point of the thread is aimed not at tactics as much as the point that the ME seems to produce the impossible to make the teams position more consistant.

I'm not saying I don't make mistakes, I've no doubt done alot to drop points over my Save with Hull City, however asking my defenders and goalkeeper to score so many own goals, most under no pressure wasn't in my game plan. Having one of the best free-kick takers be the worst in the league or wondering why the AI time their tackles better then my defenders is also not in my game plan either, yet it keeps happening. I've even started the first season with a friend (was network game before he quit and i continued the save on my own) he quit after having been frustrated (though that was 10.1 patch)

Hull in 2009 when i took charge had backroom advice saying something like "we play good against bigger repuation teams" and "poorer against similar opposition sides" I understood this and thought fine... hense no complaints. However I'm 4 seasons in with like 1-2 players remaining from the Hull team of then, why am I still getting big team results and not lower league results. In 4 season i've varied my tactics from counter to control and formations against lower clubs.. rarely does it work like against bigger teams. When it does work... guess what?! "Own goal, all even again.. oh well". Moving away from another rant lol.

All in all I'm trying not to complain but what you say and how it is are two different things, i never once said I only ever play one way against all teams or I'm complaining about tactics, I just wanna know why these clubs with no form to speak of hit their best season performance with lucky own goals, free-kicks or penalties against me so consistantly when it matters if the ME is really so balanced.

Yes, but can you blame me for getting the wrong side of what you are saying when you write your post in anger? Perhaps you have some good points to make, and the post I am replying to tells me that you have the ability to formulate points.

There are so many posts on these forums that come across rude, arrogant and hard done by. They are all written in an angry way as if a 12 year old was writing on Bebo.

I started playing all my matches on full match speed this year. I know it is not desirable for everyone, but believe me when I say I really see a benefit. I can see what is going on and I know when I'm not going to score with a tactic. I can see why goals are being scored against me, where as when I play with highlights it looks as if teams are jammy because I don't see all the failed attempts at what they are doing. Then when they score that wonder strike their tactic tries to create it is not out of the blue, or I've countered a threat.

I don't claim to be a tactical genius, but this game does take effort to get the best out the match engine.

Do you ever watch matches on full? If not, try it. If you are watching on basic highlights then that may be part of your problem.

It is also natural that you are going to feel hard done by a lot of the time. When things go bad it is natural human tendency to assume the worst. I wish you the best and hope you sort out your problems and begin to enjoy the game again.

Go play CM10 and then tell me this game is unplayable.

Well said CV.

CM 10 is more playable tbh. It has a better reputation system, less data bugs and can actually enjoy the game. You seriously think you can get a long term game on fm 2010 going with such poor regen stats. Thats why i bought fm because I want a nice long term career. It was fm that copied the cm 3d engine and has mucked up this game

You what? CM 10 is nowhere near as playable as FM is. I bought CM 10 (only cos I paid like £2.50 for it). After playing for a season I uninstalled the game. The ME was and as far as I know is still awful despite the developers spending 2 years on it.

What really makes me laugh is the suggestion I've read from some users of the forums that SI should take 2 years to do the next game. BGS did just that and released a game that was still buggy as hell and with a match engine that was far below FM 09's vanilla match engine.

Also if SI have copied the CM engine how is it that FM's engine is so much better.

Anyway to the OP it just seems as though you've had an awful lot of bad luck with your Hull game and the amount of Own Goals you've conceded. I've had a few Own Goals myself ink my Adelaide United save but usually I put it down to the keeper/defender screwing up (as happens IRL). Also I did laugh at your thread title. Of course the game's fake. Games are a form of escapism.

theres loads of own goals in my game. its just so annoying. the ball takes a slight deflection and it gos down as an own goal. obviously SI dont know the rules as to what an own goal is. If all deflections were own goals then frank lampard would never have scored a goal (minus penalties) in his career.

as for saying get the patch, yes i have. but what other games need umpteen patches to make the game right??? even after 2 patches the game is full of bugs, its just becoming a joke. I would sooner SI dont bother doing a FM11 and try and get it all right for fm12 so we dont need all these patches