Stop the ambiguity- change the stars for scouting.

At the moment, we scout a player and it gives us a rating relative to our standing as a club. The problem with this manifested quite clearly when I was playing with Ipswich in Div1. I'm trying to get into the EPL obviously. I scout, i'm looking for youth that will be strong in the EPL ideally. What i'm getting is players probably rated about 120 CA now, with a PA probably around 160. Which makes the idea of bringing them up in Div1 and then they mature and become classy EPL players void. Instead they will be useless for me in Div1, and if I ever manage to get them around their top potential let's say 155/160 they'll be average EPL players.

The problem is, even with good scouts, it's giving me results relative to what team I am, and that sucks.

For the integrity of the game I can understand this- it wouldn't work if Ipswich and Co. found the next Ronaldo all the time. But it should work on the quality of the scouts- if you can lure quality scouts to your club they should give you great results.

The star system is also confusing as I don't really know what level my club is at when they're saying 4/7 stars. They don't tell me my club reputation/quality that they are doing the equation with so I don't really have any idea what 4/7 means.

A better system would just be a clear star system equal for all players. Messi can get 7 gold stars, Robbie Savage can get 3 silver stars, but it has nothing to do with who i am.

At the moment, we scout a player and it gives us a rating relative to our standing as a club. The problem with this manifested quite clearly when I was playing with Ipswich in Div1. I'm trying to get into the EPL obviously. I scout, i'm looking for youth that will be strong in the EPL ideally. What i'm getting is players probably rated about 120 CA now, with a PA probably around 160. Which makes the idea of bringing them up in Div1 and then they mature and become classy EPL players void. Instead they will be useless for me in Div1, and if I ever manage to get them around their top potential let's say 155/160 they'll be average EPL players.

The problem is, even with good scouts, it's giving me results relative to what team I am, and that sucks.

For the integrity of the game I can understand this- it wouldn't work if Ipswich and Co. found the next Ronaldo all the time. But it should work on the quality of the scouts- if you can lure quality scouts to your club they should give you great results.

The star system is also confusing as I don't really know what level my club is at when they're saying 4/7 stars. They don't tell me my club reputation/quality that they are doing the equation with so I don't really have any idea what 4/7 means.

A better system would just be a clear star system equal for all players. Messi can get 7 gold stars, Robbie Savage can get 3 silver stars, but it has nothing to do with who i am.

I have to disagree. With the stars relative to your league position and expected finishing position (I'm assuming that's how they work) you get much more info about players who are at or near the level you can reasonably expect to sign.

If you're looking at 7 star players you can get an idea of their relative potential by clicking the column header for potential, this will sort the players according to how high their potential is so you know which 7 star player has, according to your scouts, more potential. If you see how they sit relative to known players you get an idea of what level your scouts reckon they will end up playing at.

The problem is, even with good scouts, it's giving me results relative to what team I am, and that sucks.

Off course not; that's how scouting works.

If I send out a scout I want him to report back with information relative to my team.

If I'm playing in the BSN I don't care if some championship player is 2-3 star or 4-5 star compared to the whole of the football universe.

Or if Messi is a 5 star or 4.5 star compared to 100% of my database.

I just need to know if the scouted players, in the opinion of the scout, will be Ok (3 star), good (4 star) or excellent (5 star) for my team.

Off course not; that's how scouting works.

If I send out a scout I want him to report back with information relative to my team.

If I'm playing in the BSN I don't care if some championship player is 2-3 star or 4-5 star compared to the whole of the football universe.

Or if Messi is a 5 star or 4.5 star compared to 100% of my database.

I just need to know if the scouted players, in the opinion of the scout, will be Ok (3 star), good (4 star) or excellent (5 star) for my team.

I think if you are a club which is ranked low in your division or in division below, a 5 star rating could mean a lot of different things. If I play in Germany with Cottbus and player gets 5 stars I'd like to know if he is as good as Ribery or as good as Marko Marin, both of them would probably be stars in my team, but there is a significant difference.

I think if you are a club which is ranked low in your division or in division below, a 5 star rating could mean a lot of different things. If I play in Germany with Cottbus and player gets 5 stars I'd like to know if he is as good as Ribery or as good as Marko Marin, both of them would probably be stars in my team, but there is a significant difference.

I believe the stars in the scouting reports (and the coach reports of your own players) are dependant on the league you play in.

Sorry if that wasn't clear enough in my post.

I'd prefer a similar sort of star system where we can get multiple star ratings so if you're on the verge of promotion and are starting to prepare for next season, you won't need to figure out which 7-star player is better.

So you could have a dropdown in your scout report or player profile to see a breakdown of the star ratings, broken down into similar leagues as well as the club(s) the player is contracted to.

So say you are Watford manager and you look at your player Tom Cleverley (on loan from Manchester United). The dropdown may show:

Watford: ***

Manchester United: **

League Two (and below): *******

League One: *****

Championship: ***

Premier League: **

So here you can see that if you are relegated for some reason you'd want to grab Cleverley on loan again as he will be excellent in League One.

A scout in League One will see Cleverley and know that he will be very good in the Championship should they get promoted, but will be less likely to want to come to League One as he will have Championship competition for his signature.

The problem with absolute star values, rather than relative like we have now, is that there aren't enough stars to accurately assess players. If for example, 7 stars is Messi and 1 star is the worst player in the blue square north/south then almost every single premiership player is basically going to be 6, 6.5 or 7 stars, which tells you nothing. You can have more stats of course, but if you are rating out of 20 stars or something, it's just getting harder and harder to read.

Besides, the scout reports already give you what leagues the player is suitable for, e.g. the player X would be a good signing for most league 1 clubs, player Y could potentially be a good premier league midfielder stuff.

I agree with the OP and i an find this area to be extremely frustrating at times. In the past, I have signed players as my scouts have awarded them 5 stars, only to be promoted soon after and find that my coaches perhaps only rate them as two or three stars.

On a network go on FM09 I had one scout recommend about 5-6 strikers to me over a 3-4 year period as 'sign at any cost' and they will all rubbish.

Not just bad but awful. I mean, worse than Andriy Voronin crossed with my Gran without her teeth in. Terrible.

Problem?

Yes. My problem. I should have binned him off. But I kept him on cos it was actually kind of funny

I think if you are a club which is ranked low in your division or in division below, a 5 star rating could mean a lot of different things. If I play in Germany with Cottbus and player gets 5 stars I'd like to know if he is as good as Ribery or as good as Marko Marin, both of them would probably be stars in my team, but there is a significant difference.

Click on the current ability column header and it'll sort them for you. You'll be able to see which 5 star players are better or worse than ribery or marin. assuming your scouts have scouted all the relevant players.

All the tools are there to make decisions, you can compare players, scout them multiple times (which normally gives you an indication of which league they could play in and how good they'd be in that league), sort the columns and set up filters. Learning how to maximise their effectiveness is part of the game.

If we changed to a one-size-fits-all star rating system you'd be back in the same position of not knowing which 5 star players were better or worse than others, but there would be a lot more of them.

Not just bad but awful. I mean, worse than Andriy Voronin crossed with my Gran without her teeth in. Terrible.

Surely that would improve Voronin?

I didn't read the whole thread but stars are based on your club reputation.

I'm happy that with the system being relative to my team however there is one thing I'd prefer. If I have a top class scout, scouting for a young player with potential and I'm a low to mid-table championship side, my scout will only reccommend players up to "leading star for most championship sides". There is nothing to stop a top class scout picking out a potential "good/leading star for a premiership side" just because he is at a lower level, the problem would be obviously that he would most likely choose a prem club over my side, so therefore I will not get my potential star but at least will have been able to have a look and see what I can do.

I'm happy that with the system being relative to my team however there is one thing I'd prefer. If I have a top class scout, scouting for a young player with potential and I'm a low to mid-table championship side, my scout will only reccommend players up to "leading star for most championship sides". There is nothing to stop a top class scout picking out a potential "good/leading star for a premiership side" just because he is at a lower level, the problem would be obviously that he would most likely choose a prem club over my side, so therefore I will not get my potential star but at least will have been able to have a look and see what I can do.

For me, this seems the most logical way of doing it, even if you can only get that player for a couple of seasons, or even just the one, you may benefit from it immensly.

Yea or even not at all as the case may be, just because he might choose another team over me with a bigger reputation doesnt mean I shouldnt be informed. Then again some young players do opt for a lower club in order to get first team football, Morgan Schneiderlin for example choosing Southampton over Portsmouth (and I think a couple of other bigger foreign teams) for the prospect of first team football.

yeah- the problem was, I was getting players with PA's around 160 listed at 6 stars. "Fantastic for Ipswich (AT THEIR CURRENT LEVEL)" But the truth is they will never DEVELOP into much in the EPL. And when they're young and at 120 they won't be helpful in Div1 either...

I have to agree. Anyone with a club that is constantly growing will be left very confused. All the damn players I scout are 3-4 stars, but the 3-4 stars they get now are better than 3-4 stars they used to get 2-3 seasons ago. I can't differentiate between who's good and who's great.

I have to agree. Anyone with a club that is constantly growing will be left very confused. All the damn players I scout are 3-4 stars, but the 3-4 stars they get now are better than 3-4 stars they used to get 2-3 seasons ago. I can't differentiate between who's good and who's great.

also a good point.

Yea basically you invest in a young player, back to back promotions and he'd no good to you anymore. Obviously if this worked properly and you could get a young potential star he may be snatched from you anyway but at least you'll make a financial gain, whereas in my first scenario you'll most likely make a loss.

The point is what does the current set up actually give us that would taken away by making it a simple, less ambiguous rating of players over say 10 stars but no relativity?

I'll have to agree. If the player is top class, he should be rated as top class. If he sucks, than the scout should tell me that he suck, without considering the club I'm coaching. Yes, it would be difficult to do it as things stand, but if the stars were changed by a numerical information, there wold be no way to mislead the info from the scout...

I think there is a problem with the way players develop in the game.

A player's potential is fairly fixed, so it's virtually impossible to take a decent 20-22 year old player in the BSP or League 2, and turn him into a good player at Premier League level at 27 or 28 years old. There have been quite a few players in different divisions who have been able to develop their skills as they have gone up the leagues, fought for their places, and thus become 'better than they should have been'.

Miroslav Klose, DJ Campbell, Jermaine Beckford and others have managed to come up from non-league to the Premier League (or Bundesliga) or the Championship in Beckford's case.

It's very rare in FM that you get a player and are pleasantly surprised by how good he becomes. You know that when you are in the BSP, and this player is 21, that he is going to be a decent League 1 player or whatever. It is virtually impossible to take that player and mould him into a Premier League star.

I'm not sure if the scouting is the main problem.

A player with 160 PA would turn into a good premier league player :confused: easy enough to be a squad play at a top team. 120 CA should also be good enough for League one? Your scouts are clearly giving you excellent players in relation to your clubs reputation/league.

My question is can you work out a players hidden stats from scouting? If i scout a certain peirod of time will i be able to find out if he is consistent? ambitious? proffesional? as all these are massive factors in why i bring in the youngster to the squad.

If i had a player with 180 PA with wasn't consistant and unproffesional or player with 170 PA who was consistant and professional i would sign the 170 PA player because he is more likely to reach his potential and then play well in most games.

A player with 160 PA would turn into a good premier league player :confused:

How often do players actually reach their top top PA though? And do they reach it by playing for Ipswich in Div1?

My point is more about the unnecessary ambiguity of the star rating system than about that anyhow.

oh and also thanks for telling me what my scouts are "clearly" providing. Let me assure you the players I've signed from scouting have turned out to be utter wash outs. I've lost faith in scouting as a Div1 team.

My question is can you work out a players hidden stats from scouting? If i scout a certain peirod of time will i be able to find out if he is consistent? ambitious? proffesional? as all these are massive factors in why i bring in the youngster to the squad.

Scout them again, have them watched at games.

A the end of the day the star system is just a rough-and-ready guide to signing, good for emergency signings but not to be relied upon. Scouting a player more than once over a period of time using different scouts gives you the best idea of how they will perform and what their personality is.

If we had a universal star system where everyone was given a rating out of say 10 , it wouldn't take long for people to work out that with 10 stars PA their score must be somewhere between 180 and 200. Why not just post up the real PA and be done with it.

yeah- the problem was, I was getting players with PA's around 160 listed at 6 stars. "Fantastic for Ipswich (AT THEIR CURRENT LEVEL)" But the truth is they will never DEVELOP into much in the EPL. And when they're young and at 120 they won't be helpful in Div1 either...

Relative stats are the way to go. Anything else, the system would get extremely unwieldy or too simple. Either way, it would be useless. Remember you need to capture all players with the same rating system.

Most of the time, all you need to know is how a player compares to your own squad directly and how a player compares to your competition secondarily.

What you do need though, is a way to tell your scout what the goal of the assignment is. Not just "look for youth AMCs" but a long term goal as well. If you're able to tell your scout he should be looking at Premiership-level potential, his assignment is different from having to look at Championship-level potential (e.g. a club that has as a mid-term ambition to consolidate a mid-table Championship position).

Have both. Give absolute stars, and then add "would still be a great player on promotion", or "would add depth in the even of winning promotion" or even "whilst more than good enough at this level, he would not be able to make the step up if we were promoted".

I don't see the problem.

The stars are a guide, which to me translate approximately:

* - nowhere near good enough

** - alright as backup

*** - alright at your level

**** - good player for you

***** - great player for you.

If you need more information, you read the report, whereby the scout elaborates. He feels someone is a good player for a league one side, or that someone has the potential to be a leading star for a Championship side. I have often had scout reports saying that players have the potential to play one or two leagues above my current division.

If you are unsatisfied with the report (e.g. the player gets 5 stars because he is considered to be a prospective leading star in your division) then delete the report, or remove the player from your shortlist. That is why it is YOUR shortlist. You get a report from the scout, then you choose whether you act upon it!

You can't expect everything to be served on a plate. At a simple view, you can see a scout's recommendation. It is up to you to organise this - use the notes, set a nickname, etc...

yeah- the problem was, I was getting players with PA's around 160 listed at 6 stars. "Fantastic for Ipswich (AT THEIR CURRENT LEVEL)" But the truth is they will never DEVELOP into much in the EPL. And when they're young and at 120 they won't be helpful in Div1 either...

160 is actually quite solid for an EPL player.

I have to agree. Anyone with a club that is constantly growing will be left very confused. All the damn players I scout are 3-4 stars, but the 3-4 stars they get now are better than 3-4 stars they used to get 2-3 seasons ago. I can't differentiate between who's good and who's great.

Don't the scouts tell you that "player x has the potential to become a good Premier Division player" or "player x has the potential to be a leading star for most Premier Division sides", etc?

Besides, is it really that realistic to be able to clearly differentiate between "good" and "great"?

I don't see the problem.

The stars are a guide, which to me translate approximately:

* - nowhere near good enough

** - alright as backup

*** - alright at your level

**** - good player for you

***** - great player for you.

If you need more information, you read the report, whereby the scout elaborates. He feels someone is a good player for a league one side, or that someone has the potential to be a leading star for a Championship side. I have often had scout reports saying that players have the potential to play one or two leagues above my current division.

If you are unsatisfied with the report (e.g. the player gets 5 stars because he is considered to be a prospective leading star in your division) then delete the report, or remove the player from your shortlist. That is why it is YOUR shortlist. You get a report from the scout, then you choose whether you act upon it!

You can't expect everything to be served on a plate. At a simple view, you can see a scout's recommendation. It is up to you to organise this - use the notes, set a nickname, etc...

Thats how Id like it bit once you get into your top league, its virtually impossible to find anyone over 3.5 stars. Even my 21 year old midfielder with a potential rating of 88 and a current rating in the 70s has 3 stars and my AM says I should let him go!

yeah- the problem was, I was getting players with PA's around 160 listed at 6 stars. "Fantastic for Ipswich (AT THEIR CURRENT LEVEL)" But the truth is they will never DEVELOP into much in the EPL. And when they're young and at 120 they won't be helpful in Div1 either...

120 CA is a star for League One. And 160 is very solid for Premier Leauge :confused:

I also would like to see a consistent rating but even better would be to see both. So scout can give an overall rating for a player regardless to our team but on the other hand he can hints the value of the player for our team and for our league on a seperate section.

While there are good points on both sides of this argument, I strongly believe that keeping relative scouting rankings is the better way to go. Your scouting stars shouldn't be overly relied on anyway, and as others have pointed out you need to be re-scouting players when you get promoted to update obsolete scout reports. Also, there is usually a line like "XXXX thinks this player would be a leading star in Serie B", which I've seen when playing in Serie C, so it tells me he'd be good enough when I get promoted.

That said, there is of course room for improvement. Maybe there would be an option to see scout reports relative to different levels of club?

Unless we get a numerical value (1-100) instead of Stars, I think we're good with the relative Stars system.

But yet again, I agree that the Relative Stars can be horribly confusing if you're not playing at top level.

When I was playing in Norwegian Second Division (3rd tier) with a custom club, pretty much every random unemployed guy I was scouting was getting at least 5 stars, and the starting eleven was filled with 7 stars players.

Which were, quite obviously, godawful... But the club rep was so low that any craptacular guy would have been regarded as a definite purchase. I was a sure-fire relegation candidate and always got ridiculously high odds for wins. So my only scout was seeing potential match-winners left right and center.

Had it been an absolute 1-100, I would have known all those "talents" were around 20-30 at best

Had it been an absolute 1-100, I would have known all those "talents" were around 20-30 at best

So... just divide the PA by 2? Might as well just put the PA on the screen.

As I scout every player for at least two games (or give them a two week trial if unattached) before I sign them, I rely on scouts to give me a good report on potential players. Like in the real world, not every player you buy for your club will be what you expected. Potential stars might just not fit in for your team, but play magnificently well for other clubs. A great case in point would be Jon-Dahl Tomasson who was a potential star when Newcastle Utd signed him, but crap when he was there and then did fantastic things when he left, playing very well at AC Milan. The scouts didn't do a bad job in getting him there, he just played badly and was played incorrectly at Newcastle.

Many scouts make many mistakes too, they're human. I'm sure that a level of uncertainty is in place for scouts in the game. Whilst the 20/20 scouts will mostly give you more accurate reports than a 10/10 scout, it doesn't mean they'll always be spot on.

I'm sure one of the SI developers can confirm that last point.

RB: my impression is that things have changed slightly in FM10, where there's more emphasis on the scout ratings being relative to your current squad, as well as club rep, etc.

So the moment you signed two of these 'craptacular' five star players to play up-front, for instance, future strikers of the same standard might only get a three-star rating because they wouldn't significantly improve upon your current options.

I might be imagining it, but I don't think this happened as much on FM09, where it seemed mostly relative to the overall club rep.